1872 Cup 2015, Round 2: Glasgow v Edinburgh

First topic message reminder :



It's that time again. The oldest thing in world rugby. Seen here holding the 1872 Cup:



The social club versus the members-only golf club, the unwashed versus the exfoliators, the heroin users versus the social drinkers, the chips & cheese versus the salt & sauce, the ramraiders versus the online bank hackers, the knock-off Rolecks versus the original Pateks, the Gregg's versus the Pain Quotidien and the aggressive cardiac arrest versus the stress-related work sign-off for a fortnight.

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Glasgow Warriors v Edinburgh Rugby
Saturday 2nd January 2016
At Scotstoun Stadium, 5.15pm.
Live on Sky Sports

Referee: Peter Fitzgibbon (IRFU, 66th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Lloyd Linton, Graeme Wells (both SRU)
Citing Commissioner: John Montgomery (SRU)
TMO: Jim Yuille (SRU)

C. Past Winners

2007-2008: Glasgow Warriors - Aggregate Score: 54–49

2008-2009: Edinburgh Rugby - Aggregate Score: 59-31

2009-2010: Glasgow Warriors - Aggregate Score: 47-27

2010-2011: Glasgow Warriors - Aggregate Score: 47-46

2011-2012: Glasgow Warriors - Aggregate Score: 40-35

2012-2013: Glasgow Warriors - Aggregate Score: 44-31

2013-2014: Glasgow Warriors - Aggregate Score: 57-50

2014-2015: Edinburgh Rugby - Aggregate Score: 26-24

2015: Edinburgh rugby 23 - Glasgow 11

D. Teams

Glasgow Warriors

Stuart Hogg, Taqele Naiyaravoro, Mark Bennett, Peter Horne, Sean Lamont, Duncan Weir, Ali Price; Gordon Reid, Fraser Brown, Zander Fagerson, Greg Peterson, Jonny Gray (captain), Ryan Wilson, Chris Fusaro, Josh Strauss.

Replacements: Shalva Mamukashvili, Ryan Grant, Sila Puafisi, Leone Nakarawa, Hugh Blake; Grayson Hart, Peter Murchie, Lee Jones.

Edinburgh Rugby

Jack Cuthbert, Dougie Fife, Michael Allen, Matt Scott, Damien Hoyland, Phil Burleigh, Sam Hidalgo-Clyne; Rory Sutherland, Ross Ford, WP Nel, Anton Bresler, Ben Toolis, Mike Coman (captain), John Hardie, Cornell Du Preez.

Replacements: Neil Cochrane, Allan Dell, John Andress, Alex Toolis, Jamie Ritchie, Sean Kennedy, Greig Tonks, Andries Strauss.

jimbopip wrote:

.................. and a 10 who can kick penalties.

At least you have a 10

Stats make interesting reading - Glasgow nearly twice as many metres run but undone by penalties and turnovers

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/matchstats?gameId=269401&league=270557

Forwards win Matches, Backs decide by how much.

From 10-15 Glasgow are a match for anybody in Europe, with Pyrgos and Blair fit they are well covered at 9. The back 5 of the pack are pretty impressive when you can combine the work rate of Gray, Swinson, Harley, Favaro and Fusaro with the power and skill of Strauss, Ashe, Nakarawa and to an extent Wilson. But when you get to the front three we have real problems,a pack is only as strong as its weakest member and that is having an enormous effect on Glasgow, Fraser Brown and Pat MacArthur are competent club players but when it comes to props there is little of no strength Puafisi is not very good, Zander Fagerson is maybe as much as three or four seasons off being good enough to start regularly, Cusack is maybe a little under half the player he was before his long period out of the game and on the other side Reid, Grant and YanuYanutawa are inconsistent.

That said you do not become a bad team over night of course any team that loses De Klerk, Welsh, Kellock, Matawalu, Van Der Merwe and Maitland will suffer as a result although with the backline we still have Glasgow will compete with the best but you can't help but feel that after last season they should have looked to keep the best players and add to it, imagine if they'd kept last years squad and added Blair, Favaro and Naiyarovoro then Glasgow would be firm favourites for the Pro12 and competitors in Europe.

First of all, fair play to our weegie brethren for being magnanimous in defeat

It certainly wasn't a classic but was entertaining nonetheless. Glasgow were very disappointing and, although the better team, Edinburgh made a lot of mistakes too.

I think the biggest difference was in the back row. Hardie really is a special player who somehow manages to combine a complete disregard for his own wellbeing with an excellent rugby brain and no shortage of skill. His tackling is the hardest I've seen since Jason White.

Du Preez was outstanding too - I didn't see who he ran over en-route to Scott's try but enjoyed it all the same! Even the much maligned Coman put in a captain's display.

Compare that to Glasgow's back row who were pretty anonymous. If the coaches continue to think Wilson is one of the best we've got at 6 for Scotland then we really are in  trouble. Fusaro always gives his all but is just lacking in size and ability to be more than a solid club player. I didn't see much of Ashe to comment.

Scrum was a disappointment for Edinburgh but given that there wasn't a single scrum completed without a penalty or free kick (i think) it doesn't look like much scrummaging was going on.

As for the backs, Matt Scott and Bennett were the top picks for me. Scott had his best game of the season and outplayed Horne IMO. Bennett was by far and away Glasgow's best player.

Michael Allan looked good too and linked up well with Matt Scott.

Final word goes to Tom Brown - that's got to be one of the best try saving tackles I've ever seen. Let's not forgot that he did that to the biggest winger in world rugby and is only 14st when wet himself!

Glasgow are going to be much stronger next week but with a 12 point lead we have a real chance. Pick up a LBP and retain the cup and I'll be delighted with the double header!

As well as the scrum and lienout being rubbish the continued ineffectiveness at the break down is killing glasgow. They could still have sneaked a losing BP or even a win if they hadnt kept coughing the ball up at the breakdown.
The changes in prop have been bad for Glasgow but the loss of Munro, as forwards coach, has been an even bigger blow, IMHO.
Toonie will gloss over a poor season with pish about a world cup hangover but he wont be able to hide next year if the same lacklustre forward play is being dished up.

sensisball wrote:As well as the scrum and lienout being rubbish the continued ineffectiveness at the break down is killing glasgow. They could still have sneaked a losing BP or even a win if they hadnt kept coughing the ball up at the breakdown.
The changes in prop have been bad for Glasgow but the loss of Munro, as forwards coach, has been an even bigger blow, IMHO.
Toonie will gloss over a poor season with pish about a world cup hangover but he wont be able to hide next year if the same lacklustre forward play is being dished up.

None of De Klerk, Welsh and Murray have been replaced by someone of equal quality. There is not much any forward coach can do when Puafisi is your 1st choice tighthead. Actually, i think Dan McFarland hasn't done too badly all things considered.

Unfortunate for Glasgow but they are now paying for last years success. Too many high profile players went to bigger clubs/salaries and it's meant Glasgow haven't been the same team this year!

Glasgow just could not hang onto the ball, it has been our problem all season in every game except the first Scarlets Euro game. We need to step it up next week big time. Sharing the league points is acceptable, anything less would be a disaster.

Well done Edinburgh as well, good to see you trying to play some rugby!

Solly even used his subs, whatever next?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

+1

I tell you, Hardie and Du Preez put in some performances for a couple of knitwear models!

I think its fair to say we've sorted out our centre partnership, I thought Scott and Allan linked up very well and with more gametime together should develop into a good unit.

Not a classic game, but I enjoyed watching it. Certainly don't agree that it was an awful match.

Vince
You are correct about props not being replaced with equal quality but that doesnt affect lineout play or open play. Fraser brown is an established first team hooker and the lineout was still poor.

Even more worrying is the lack of support to the ball carrier in open play. How many balls did glasgow cough up in contact? 4 or was it 5? That has nothing to do with the scrummaging ability of the props and all to do with how the players are being coached and what they are executing in training. Oh and since McFarland has left Connacht they have reached the top of the league with the same head coach, roughly the same squad, but a new forwards coach. Just a coincidence?

PS. allegedly the SRU and Tonnie didnt even put a deal on the table for Welsh in the spring and so he had to look elsewhere for a pay packet. If thats true then Glasgow only have themseves for their scrum issues.

That Tom Brown tackle on Naiyaravoro shook the ground so much this nematode woke up from hibernation...

Thought the game was great, intense, physical and edgy, and great to see over 23,000 attending.

I was impressed in particular by Alex Toolis - he's been in Ben's shadow at Edinburgh, perhaps, but put in a very decent performance.

I'm just a bit worried about Tommy Seymour and Stuart Hogg. They seemed almost too quiet when, really, they should be on the ball regularly and frequently on the scoreboard. Looking ahead to the England match, we need them 100%.

I don't think one match can dictate the Scotland team, however, I thought today's game was pretty reflective of all player's current form. The Glasgow pack was nothing noteworthy, not giving enough momentum for their main threat, the backs, to have much effect. For Edinburgh, the pack was physical as usual and deservedly took centre stage.

I don't think there will be much change to the backline, Scott and Taylor will contest 12 I feel, but I think the pack will come under scrutiny. The Glasgow back row, at least today, was not of international standard. Swinson and Brown were underwhelming compared to their Edinburgh counterparts.

Last point, does Tom Brown deserve a call up to the Scotland squad? When you think about it, Visser is the only in form wing. Seymour will also be included, however, Maitland isn't regularly starting at Irish which worries me and Lamont, as much as he's got experience on his side, I can't see him playing internationally much longer. Hoyland and Hughes need a full season under their belt IMO.

I can't see him getting any game time but I do think Brown has at least earned a call up to the training squad - his form all season has been very good.

Visser has been scoring a lot of tries for quins but went off injured today - not sure how serious.

Maitland has had injury issues but played well at 15 at the weekend by all accounts.

So I suspect the back 3 will ultimately be chosen from visser, Seymour, Maitland and Hogg.

You are right though that there are some key Scotland players off form.

Just watched the game back and it is amazing how much Lacey gave both teams free reign to make the rucks a complete dogs dinner. If Barnes was the ref there would have been 100 penalties! That was probably the main reason for it being quite a scrappy harum scarum game.

The other thing is the number of times Tom Brown put his body on the line - he stopped Fraser Brown after Glasgow did the clever lineout move and he was all over big T like a rash whenever he got the ball. No wonder he was completely beaten up by the end!

Just been looking at the TV coverage for the return leg and it would appear to only be on Sky which is really disappointing, surely the SRU should have ensured this game was on the BBC to ensure as wide an audience as possible. Given they showed the first leg on Alba I can't understand the logic.

I would have thought that the SRU would have preferred to have the Edinburgh game to be broadcasted by Sky and the Glasgow one by the BBC to increase attendance at Murrayfield.

Just seems a pity that we don't have full match replays on the pro12 website like the aviva premiership does. Most big games are on YouTube but often they don't last/sound and quality is iffy.

Indeed knocked on. SRU should've insisted these games were ring fenced and had to be shown on the BBC.
Really is daft having a 2 leg cup competition played in the space of a week split between 2 different broadcasters.
Makes both them & the pro 12 look rather amateurish.

Yes, I've just been reinstalling adblock on a questionable site so I can be disappointed again.

There is a refrain which is becoming all too familiar for Glasgow fans;

"When we're able to play our game at the tempo we want we can beat anyone."

This reminds me of a comment Tommy Gemmell made of the Lisbon Lions (and which Graham Souness applied almost verbatim to the great Liverpool side he captained,

"We knew that if anyone tried to play us at football we would beat them: but if anyone tried to kick us out of a match our attitude was, Fine, if you want a fight we'll beat you at that and then we'll beat you at football."

I think Glasgow are not winning the fight before trying to play teams of the park, at the moment. Personally, I would pick a bruisers XV for this weekend with the option to bring on some "flair" from the bench.

1. Shrek, to meet them off the bus.
2. Brown
3. Buffy's Mate, looked up for it when he came on.
4. Jonny
5. Oscar Peterson
6. Naka
7. Nina
8. Bluto
9. Blade, sic.
10. Meatball.Or Hornee I know I made a "humourous" comparison between Dan Carter and Dan Cer last week, but at 5-0 Carter would have kept putting the ball in the MFL 22 and kicked penalties or drops to keep the scoreboard ticking over.
11. Schlong
12 Pudding ..who was sorely missed, he would have been another flanker which given that Mr Lacey felt each ruck needed at least 9 people contesting it would have come in handy.
13.
14. Seymour.
15. Hogg

Two pieces of news from the Glasgow Warriors Index Forum;

Naka and both included in the NZ Herald World XV of 2015. Apparently ASBO is incandescent with rage as there is a thirteen loose-head playing down at Ayr who was overlooked.

Zander Fagerson needs no longer go by the nickname "Buffy's Mate": we can use his given middle name, RAGNAR.

I'm not overly concerned by the soap dodgers team selection. They don't have a pack that can match ours and Matt Scott (12) is back in business. I got the margin of victory close to spot on last time around so here goes:

Glasgow 18 - 24 Edinburgh

I thought the Brown vs Big T contest summed up the difference between the two sides. The Weegies are all talk and swagger, but Edinburgh just wanted it more, and quietly went about the business of smashing Glasgow back, throwing everything into it. The Weegies badly missed Gray, Harley and Strauss.

I've updated the thread for the next leg

If Gray, Strauss, Fuvaro and Dunbar are back I expect Glasgow to be a much tougher proposition.

Glasgow were missing power, breakdown ability and leadership - they will all provide those in abundance.

Fuvaro v Hardie should be brutal!

Glasgow just haven't looked the same since Al Kellock retired.....

Edinburgh Rugby v Glasgow Warriors, Saturday 2 January, Scotstoun, k/o 5.15pm

15 Jack Cuthbert
14 Dougie Fife
13 Michael Allen
12 Matt Scott
11 Damien Hoyland
10 Phil Burleigh
9 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne

1 Rory Sutherland
2 Ross Ford
3 WP Nel
4 Anton Bresler
5 Ben Toolis
6 Mike Coman (captain)
7 John Hardie
8 Cornell Du Preez


Substitutes

16 Neil Cochrane

17 Allan Dell

18 John Andress

19 Alex Toolis

20 Jamie Ritchie

21 Sean Kennedy

22 Greig Tonks

23 Andries Strauss

The Tambola has gone into overdrive - it's almost as if Glasgow don't actually want the 1872 cup back!

RDW_Scotland wrote:The Tambola has gone into overdrive - it's almost as if Glasgow don't actually want the 1872 cup back!

We have not seen the Glasgow injury list yet, I imagine that there are still a few on it.

They have also got 3 Euro games on the trott coming up now so some rotation was inevitable. Still not a bad side though and that front 5 may be stronger than last week. I wonder if the weather will allow any running rugby though!

It certainly is a more powerful XV but bringing in Weir and the fastest man in Glasgow won't help the creativity. As you say though the weather isn't great and they are exactly kind of players you would want in that weather.

Shame Dickinson is still injured and misses the chance to devour Fagerson, but Sutherland and Fagerson are Scotland's future (and have a lot more substance than a certain white paper with the same name) so will be interesting to see how they get on against each other.

From an Edinburgh PoV I'd say a LBP and therefore retaining the cup is the minimum we should be aiming for here, but I think we can win this. I do however fear that Glasgow may click soon and we may feel the backlash

As I thought, Blair, Dunbar, Swinson and Favaro all injured still. Ashe, Seymour and Russell all rested.

Glad to see Price get a start, he did actually make a bit of an impact when he came on last week and looked livelier than Hartson. It will be good to get another look at Blake again, coming off the bench. Its been a while since we have seen him, though he looked pretty good in the sevens team. Fusaro is, I think, now playing for his contract next season and needs to up his game.

Unsurprisingly. Tom Brown has a sore shoulder this week after his heroics bringing down Big Tachy!

I bet Damian Hoyland is really looking forward to stepping up!

I suspect Glasgow will be cleverer with how they use Big T as well - the 'get it to the big lad ASAP' tactic worked against the Scarlets but we had him well marshalled.

I reckon they'll use him in moves where he is already up to speed before he gets the ball - most likely coming off his blindside wing and targeting the channel outside 13. Hoyland ain't much bigger than Brown and Big T will have a chip on his shoulder after last week!

What's happened to Junior? Showed up really well in early season and then given no game time at all since then.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Hoyland ain't much bigger than Brown and Big T will have a chip on his shoulder after last week!

Hoyland may have more than a few chips on his by the end of the game if he dose not get his technique right!


In other news, on the Warriors forum, they are speculating that the game may be switched to Murrayfield if the rain stays on. It still looked very heavy during the Scarlets game and I can't believe it will take a lot to put it under water again. Anyone in the vicinity know if this is likely?

I would imagine that they would make an early call on this as well and not leave it until people are on the way to the game like last year. Not very fair on Glasgow I know, but they really can't afford to lose another game at this point in the season. This match does need to be played.

That world indeed be a disaster for the Glasgow fans but they simply must play this game.

The only other option is wait until one of the European knockout weekends when both teams are unlikely to be involved.

RDW_Scotland wrote:The Tambola has gone into overdrive - it's almost as if Glasgow don't actually want the 1872 cup back!

This scarily like the side I predicted. Apart from Price for the still injured Blair and Batman retaining his place (but look for Naka to come on for him) it's spot on.

So, either I have finally got my rugby smarts OR Toonie has had the mother of all breakdowns. He has been under a lot of strain recently.

Might have to swap the teams round in the header if the Been are to be believed!

The second-leg of the 1872 Cup between Glasgow Warriors and Edinburgh will be staged at Murrayfield after the pitch at Scotstoun was deemed unplayable, BBC Scotland has learned.

Damn it! I'm buggered if I'm going to like it, but somewhere deep down I know it's necessary.

A bit like a prostate exam (I imagine).

Just seen the clip of the pitch at Scotstoun, was never going to be playable in a million years.

This is the best of a bad deal, as I said before, Glasgow can't afford to lose another game. At least they made the call in good time this time, so people can make some arrangements. I wonder what kind of crowd will pitch up this time?

Glasgow cant afford to reschedule another game until they clear their schedule a bit, especially with the january and february weather which could conceivably cancel more games. Unfortunate, but I think hands are tied here for everyone involved.

Where ever the game gets played, I'm looking forward to Blake getting a chance against Hardie. He has to know that opportunities to prove himself against the current Scotland 7 incumbent are going to be few and far between. Should make for a good showdown, assuming he gets on the pitch...

Glasgow are actually perfectly capable of winning at Murrayfield. In many ways a good firm, wide surface should suit them, can you imagine what the game would have been like at Scotstoun in these conditions! It certainly would not have played into our strengths.

This is crunch time, if we can't get a result now, then we are going to be struggling to make the playoffs, let along get a home semi. Time for Glasgow Warriors to stand up and be counted. I think they can do it, I hope they do as well!

So the odds on Edinburgh have shortened hugely. They're pretty much as they were for the first leg which is odd as its a stronger Glasgow team.

I was actually looking forward to a day trip west. It's been ages since I was punched largely (but not entirely) through no fault of my own.

Being honest though, I had so much fun visiting my wife when she lived in Glasgow and I kind of miss the place. We don't get through very often now we have kids and can't enjoy the city in the same way even when we do.

Never thought I'd be so happy to see Meatball. Russell was rubbish last week and maybe needs a week or two to settle down a bit. Glad Murchie is back too.

Bit of a pain for some facing another big commute for the game, but Glasgow really couldn't have postponed it given their schedule.

Glasgow forum is in meltdown atm. Lots of disgracefuls and outrageous's being thrown about by some with no suggestion of what they shouldve done instead. Some sensible heads accepting it and getting behind the weegies anyway. Good on them.

The legendary Scotstoun pitch strikes again. When are Glasgow moving away from that sorry excuse of a rugby field?

Wont complain about it though as it means more chance of an Edinburgh win and more people through the gates which can only be a good thing.

Imperialbigdave wrote:Glasgow forum is in meltdown atm. Lots of disgracefuls and outrageous's being thrown about by some with no suggestion of what they shouldve done instead. Some sensible heads accepting it and getting behind the weegies anyway. Good on them.

Yes I saw that as well, all over Twitter as well, by some people who should really see the bigger picture, Peter Wright for one.

Like it or not TV has played a part in this decision. The league needs TV revenue, people easily forget that when it suits them. We are only ever going to get better TV deals by providing a good product when we say we will and we are always going to struggle against the bigger leagues unless we do.

For the play it on sunday viewpoint, don't forget that Glasgow are off to France next weekend and a quick turnaround is the last thing we need in a competition where we still have a chance to qualify.

The way the weather is at the moment and the vulnerability of the Scotstoun pitch means we could easily lose a few more games before the end of winter, what would our fixture list look like then.

This was a sensible grown up decision for lots of reasons. I am sure the alternatives were looked at but at the end of the day the game needed to be played and this was the least bad option.

I have been on Twitter to try and bring some balance into the argument.

BigGee wrote:
I have been on Twitter to try and bring some balance into the argument.

We can always rely on you BigGee

VinceWLB wrote:The legendary Scotstoun pitch strikes again. When are Glasgow moving away from that sorry excuse of a rugby field?

Wont complain about it though as it means more chance of an Edinburgh win and more people through the gates which can only be a good thing.

I would not be so sure. Glasgow have been far from unbeatable at Scotstoun this year and the pitch in its current state does not suite them at all. We have seen for the past few years that Glasgow pick up once the pitch firms up in the spring and often don't play well in the depth of winter.

Glasgow lost last weekend because they played badly, not because it was at BTMF. If they ever do click this season, it is likely to be on a decent pitch when they can play their game. If Glasgow play well, then this is still a game they can win. I am not to bothered about the cup, I just want the points!

Imperialbigdave wrote:

BigGee wrote:
I have been on Twitter to try and bring some balance into the argument.

We can always rely on you BigGee

That's the way Gee. You talk sensible and balanced elsewhere and save all your old drivel for us.

Murrayfield Schmurrayfield. We're looking at away matches to Northampton and Racing 92 and needing to win and pick up an LBP at least: if we can't travel to the home of the Luvvies feeling confident then what hope have we got for the next three weeks?

Remember we have Ragnar the Mental propping for us.

Why didn't Glasgow chose to play it at the old Firhill or even Hampden?