The "All-in" Junior world cup thread

[Taylorman]

First topic message reminder :

With 6 games on today didnt feel like jumping around the various u20 posts for each side...

On now is Scotland vs SA- Scots ahead after 16 mins 5-0, now SA 7-5 after 18.

Wales are leading Fiji 14-5 after scoring a try after 7 seconds! An average kick of to the left was left to bounce by the Fijians and Wales came through at full pace catching the ball after the bounce and scored in the corner. Other than the ball bouncing I don't think you can get a quicker try.

Aus thrashed Argie 36-17.

[Pal Joey]

Andre Pollard intercepts for a try

SA leading 7-5

[Taylorman]

yellow card on the SA 12. Didn't look that bad. B/B's making all the play. Have gone over or nearly gone over 3 times- lost the ball, held up, knocked on...finally Li in the corner. They have to capitalise on all this ball. 15-7 NZ lead...

[Portnoy's Complaint]

I just loved England's first half demolition of the Oirish. Great, powerful, accurate stuff. Shame that they ran out of steam after the interval.

Signs of things against to come (probably against the Bleeks)?

[Biltong]

Absolute pathetic play from the baby boks, kicki, kick, fu...n kick.

[Taylorman]

two fortunate tries for the bboks. Intercept and whatever that was...

[SecretFly]

Signs of things against to come, for sure!
The wall's on the writing.
The Cockneys defending again year for one more their title. Stuff brilliant!

[Taylorman]

20-18 to bboks. good kick. that Pollards a very good 10.

[Pal Joey]

yeah, very composed player. He just had a pot at fg... just wide.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Signs of things against to come, for sure!
The wall's on the writing.
The Cockneys defending again year for one more their title.  Stuff brilliant!

Ha. Said well Fly Secret   .

Early too.

[Biltong]

What was also fortunate was the yellow card for NZ.

[Pal Joey]

All locked up at 25 all. A couple of good bump offs there.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Esterhuizen is a very lucky boy to still be on the pitch.

[Biltong]

I never want to watch this match again.

[Biltong]

Commisserations to the baby blacks, on the basis that they made all the play they deserved to make the final

[Taylorman]

good game. Bbok powered home at the end. Sleek skills just arent going to match that size. The second to last try the 10 gets right into the legs and he just storms right through them. At least we had a crack. SA SA final friday at Eden park.

[SecretFly]

Size, size and more size is it seems the magic ingredient for continued success at this grade.  Grow em big and/or doctor their birth date  Joking about the birth date doctoring of course...I think.     
But size is the tool that's used to progress in this age group.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Size is becoming the logic at all levels in pro rugby.

Gym monkeys in all positions is now the norm.

[blackcanelion]

SA through. As much as I'm a NZ rugby fan. I'm not sure we'd have deserved to be in the final and the two best sides will be there. Didn't see the whole game Biltong. But thought your boys were stronger in the tight and around the ruck. Even if we'd made it through on the basis of playing 14 men, I wouldn't have fancied our chances against England.

Time for the NZRFU to revisit the junior game. Key points for me:

More games for national age groups sides.
Contract top players at a younger age

On a happier note Matt McGahan is progessing well in his return to union from rugby league and played well for the Blues up north.

[SecretFly]

Size is becoming the logic at all levels in pro rugby.

Gym monkeys in all positions is now the norm.

Gym monkeys with fancy feet...................... a contradiction in terms usually but with new technological advances...... in space food science and conditioning, and nose clips, and oxygen tents, and parabolic resonating performance grade curves, and blood/sweat ratio coefficients, and mouse wheels, and candy bars and ice planets and moon buggies................. with all that set up, that money can buy................................ gym monkeys with fancy feet and lifetime guaranteed stamina levels IS possible.
Ah...the world of science, marketing and money.  I love it.

[blackcanelion]

Size is becoming the logic at all levels in pro rugby.

Gym monkeys in all positions is now the norm.

Gym monkeys with fancy feet...................... a contradiction in terms usually but with new technological advances...... in space food science and conditioning, and nose clips, and oxygen tents, and parabolic resonating performance grade curves, and blood/sweat ratio coefficients, and mouse wheels, and candy bars and ice planets and moon buggies................. with all that set up, that money can buy................................ gym monkeys with fancy feet and lifetime guaranteed stamina levels IS possible.
Ah...the world of science, marketing and money.  I love it.

Are you saying they're employing Lance Armstrong?

[SecretFly]

I'm allegedly saying some sides are employing Lance- yes. But it was never me who said such a thing - only allegedly so......

[Sgt_Pooly]

England beat Ireland with more than just size, they beat them playing better rugby.

Gym conditioning is a huge part of the game now, if a side comes into the championship unprepared they're going to lose. This is the same through all age grades, whoever dominates the collision often wins the game.

[SecretFly]

England beat Ireland with more than just size, they beat them playing better rugby.

Gym conditioning is a huge part of the game now, if a side comes into the championship unprepared they're going to lose. This is the same through all age grades, whoever dominates the collision often wins the game.

.... And beat them on size.   And stamina levels that allows size to play better rugby for longer - contradiction in more terms based on dinosaur dymnamics but surmounted by science and money

Money is certainly helping England pull away from the rest now in many grades.  It's no secret that they have engaged best people, best sciences - Olympic cycling specialty trainers etc - special dedicated facilities - to push them forward and assist them in their 2015 target and beyond.  That may indeed be playing better than the opposition - but it's also utilising tons more money.... tons more money.

[The Great Aukster]

It will be interesting to see how much rugby England can play against the Boks who are at least a physical match for them.

[Sgt_Pooly]

England beat Ireland with more than just size, they beat them playing better rugby.

Gym conditioning is a huge part of the game now, if a side comes into the championship unprepared they're going to lose. This is the same through all age grades, whoever dominates the collision often wins the game.

.... And beat then on size.   And stamina levels that allows size to play better rugby for longer - contradiction in more terms based on dinosaur dymnamics but surmounted by science and money

Money is certainly helping England pull away from the rest now in many grades.  It's no secret that they have engaged best people, best sciences - Olympic cycling specialty trainers etc - special dedicated facilities - to push them forward and assist them in their 2015 target and beyond.  That may indeed be playing better than the opposition - but it's also utilising tons more money.... tons more money.

Of course money plays a part but they should be little excuse for fitness in todays game. England are revamping the grass roots and catching the talent early. With this they can develop a pool of players that know each others game and can grow together. It's a whole multitude of factors thats coming into fruation after years of hard work.

It's not just size, believe me. If it was that simple we'd see Georgia and their giants dominating rugby.

England just dominated Ireland in all facets of the game for 40mins.

[DaveM]

.... And beat them on size.   And stamina levels that allows size to play better rugby for longer - contradiction in more terms based on dinosaur dymnamics but surmounted by science and money

Money is certainly helping England pull away from the rest now in many grades.  It's no secret that they have engaged best people, best sciences - Olympic cycling specialty trainers etc - special dedicated facilities - to push them forward and assist them in their 2015 target and beyond.  That may indeed be playing better than the opposition - but it's also utilising tons more money.... tons more money.

England played their best rugby in the first half when both sides were fresh. England's basics are superb and that is because for the first time ever we are taking advantage of our large player base, and we are focussing on basic skills from a young age. Of course money helps, but England have had big sides at age-group level before e.g. 2008, and the difference in skills and game-management now is vast.

The 1st half today was an incredible demonstration of all-court rugby. English rugby has come on miles in the last 10 years in terms of developing players.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

England beat Ireland with more than just size, they beat them playing better rugby.

Gym conditioning is a huge part of the game now, if a side comes into the championship unprepared they're going to lose. This is the same through all age grades, whoever dominates the collision often wins the game.

.... And beat them on size.   And stamina levels that allows size to play better rugby for longer - contradiction in more terms based on dinosaur dymnamics but surmounted by science and money

Money is certainly helping England pull away from the rest now in many grades.  It's no secret that they have engaged best people, best sciences - Olympic cycling specialty trainers etc - special dedicated facilities - to push them forward and assist them in their 2015 target and beyond.  That may indeed be playing better than the opposition - but it's also utilising tons more money.... tons more money.

That's pro rugby in a capitalistic World I'm afraid, Fly.

If we don't expect anything else but the worst, then we won't be disappointed.

[Hood83]

I think SA will win the title, but those saying they've played the best rugby, are you including England? I think the SA team is closer to how England looked a few years back - very big, very direct, skills OK but not fantastic.

England on the other hand are smaller than I've seen them before. Not sure if weights verify that but they look much more focused on basic skills. The backline still crabs but generally I'd say their skills are better than SAs at this level, a rare thing to find myself saying about an England team. If we lose, I suspect it will be the power deficit.

[SecretFly]

England beat Ireland with more than just size, they beat them playing better rugby.

Gym conditioning is a huge part of the game now, if a side comes into the championship unprepared they're going to lose. This is the same through all age grades, whoever dominates the collision often wins the game.

.... And beat them on size.   And stamina levels that allows size to play better rugby for longer - contradiction in more terms based on dinosaur dymnamics but surmounted by science and money

Money is certainly helping England pull away from the rest now in many grades.  It's no secret that they have engaged best people, best sciences - Olympic cycling specialty trainers etc - special dedicated facilities - to push them forward and assist them in their 2015 target and beyond.  That may indeed be playing better than the opposition - but it's also utilising tons more money.... tons more money.

That's pro rugby in a capitalistic World I'm afraid, Fly.

If we don't expect anything else but the worst, then we won't be disappointed.

Just pointing out a few facts about the underlying conditions pertinent to the English demolishing the Oirish that the general fan might miss or overlook as they pop their champagne corks, Port Just helping out on a little behind the scenes detail.

[kingraf]

So what's the suggestion? Ban kids from gyms? Try reverse the game? I mean, sure England are now miles ahead technologically, but Ireland are more advanced than, say Zimbabwe. So do we level the playing field by minimising England's Tech savvy, but allowing the Ireland to stay ahead of poorer countries?

[Sgt_Pooly]

Sounds more like sour grapes and looking for excuses Fly

[lostinwales]

After all - Ireland put their current high level of performance down to a highly professional set up to make the most of the available talent

[SecretFly]

So what's the suggestion? Ban kids from gyms? Try reverse the game? I mean, sure England are now miles ahead technologically, but Ireland are more advanced than, say Zimbabwe. So do we level the playing field by minimising England's Tech savvy, but allowing the Ireland to stay ahead of poorer countries?

We do whatever England wants to do.  We do what they want to do.  This is not a HALT message I'm delivering.  

But when I hear the words 'demolishing the Oirish', I'll do a little science and reason and economy chat to give more reasons for the demolision than Port proffered to give when he was drinking his champagne.

I'm not telling England to go backwards.  Backwards doesn't happen in the real world.  I don't want England to go backwards anymore than I'd want Ireland to go backwards.  
But going forward rapidly less quickly than England is now a real risk not just for Ireland but for other smaller nations.  That might be inconsequential to England - and naturally so.  But it ain't inconsequential to me.  I'm Irish - not English, so I worry about the risk of England pulling away from the rest of us on terms that we could never match - namely finance required to sustain the levels of progress.

[SecretFly]

Sounds more like sour grapes and looking for excuses Fly

Call it what you will. I'll call it demolishing the Oirish' on the basis of more money put into more technology. Had Port suggested his side 'beat the Irish' I might not have cared to respond at all. But facts are facts. Sour grapes accusations are topic killer attempts. No. The topic is there.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I think you'll find we beat you at rugby.

So basically sour grapes and excuses.....at least you admit it.

[LeinsterFan4life]

England has always been dominant at this level and lucky for us it has never transfered to the senior game.

Ireland were missing at least 5-6 first team players so to reach the semis really was some achievement. I'm sure that a good few of these lads will go on to play fir their provinces.

[SecretFly]

I think you'll find we beat you at rugby.

So basically sour grapes and excuses.....at least you admit it.

Tally Ho. Pop your cork, Pooly        

[Sgt_Pooly]

Hardly being gloating in victory Fly, I'm just responding to your excuses.

England are a better team and played better on the day. Ireland have had better squads and will come back strong, there's no doubting that.

[DaveM]

England has always been dominant at this level and lucky for us it has never transfered to the senior game.

That's not true. England have done ok since the u20 format was launched, but only managed to win the JWC for the first time last year. Prior to the u20 level England weren't anything special at u21 level.

England have made huge strides in the last couple of years as the academies produce players of a higher and higher calibre. The days where England had 3 or 4 star players and then a load of filler are long gone. Our basics are now right up there with the best in the world. That has never been the case before.

And this should continue. The RFU changed the guidance on how to coach kids in the first few years they play rugby not that long ago, and that hasn't fed through yet. Also Worcester and LI, sides which haven't contributed much recently, have recently announced huge investments in their academies.

[SecretFly]

Hardly being gloating in victory Fly, I'm just responding to your excuses.

England are a better team and played better on the day. Ireland have had better squads and will come back strong, there's no doubting that.

Did I suggest you were? Point it out for me.
And then point out the statement I did key in on that I used as a platform to explain the detail of how all this works. You kinda slid over that one. You kinda ignore that one. Was that gloating? Was that graciousness in victory exemplified?

You're an addition that included yourself in the debate - such as it was. You've kinda plotted yourself into a kinda central role in it - but you weren't. You came to it late. Port and myself were the central characters. His comments were the reason I went into detail. I hear similar comments like that anytime in the future and I'll respond with the detail that the gloating overlooks.

[Mad for Chelsea]

are Ireland the new Wales, in that nobody ever beats them at rugby, they just sometimes score more points?

[SecretFly]

Ireland are the new Wales!!!!!!!!!  Rulers of the Woyald!!!  

International rugby is about winning the next game, nothing is learned from losing, unless Ireland lose - because we always win regardless of the score board

As Clive Woodward might say after losing to New Zealand....

[Rugby Fan]

I'm pleased to learn that, when England lose, the reason is nothing to do with how we played the game. It's just that we didn't spend enough money.

[Sgt_Pooly]

are Ireland the new Wales, in that nobody ever beats them at rugby, they just sometimes score more points?

Or have more money, technology, protein.......

[SecretFly]

I'm pleased to learn that, when England lose, the reason is nothing to do with how we played the game. It's just that we didn't spend enough money.

Well the old banking system is certainly PRL's idea of enhancing their teams' chances on the field.  But they're just a professional club body...wot would they know about the links between filty money and winning things? - afterall, Top14 is rolling in the stuff and they ain't winning nothing.

[SecretFly]

are Ireland the new Wales, in that nobody ever beats them at rugby, they just sometimes score more points?

Or have more money, technology, protein.......

we always win regardless of the scoreboard. And you are just jealous, see.

[Hood83]

So what's the suggestion? Ban kids from gyms? Try reverse the game? I mean, sure England are now miles ahead technologically, but Ireland are more advanced than, say Zimbabwe. So do we level the playing field by minimising England's Tech savvy, but allowing the Ireland to stay ahead of poorer countries?

We do whatever England wants to do.  We do what they want to do.  This is not a HALT message I'm delivering.  

But when I hear the words 'demolishing the Oirish', I'll do a little science and reason and economy chat to give more reasons for the demolision than Port proffered to give when he was drinking his champagne.

I'm not telling England to go backwards.  Backwards doesn't happen in the real world.  I don't want England to go backwards anymore than I'd want Ireland to go backwards.  
But going forward rapidly less quickly than England is now a real risk not just for Ireland but for other smaller nations.  That might be inconsequential to England - and naturally so.  But it ain't inconsequential to me.  I'm Irish - not English, so I worry about the risk of England pulling away from the rest of us on terms that we could never match - namely finance required to sustain the levels of progress.

Secret I think it's reasonable to talk about how England are getting success at this level, what they're able to do that others can't. But it feels like you think in winning we somehow think we have innately more talented rugby players than you guys. I don't, I don't think people are born rugby players - some may have special skills like hand eye coordination etc but even that's probably come about from some form of informal training as well. We do however seem to have better rugby players at this level, partly for those reasons you mention. Like most sportsmen they are better due to the practice, science etc. that they're able to put in.

[Sgt_Pooly]

England has always been dominant at this level and lucky for us it has never transfered to the senior game.

Ireland were missing at least 5-6 first team players so to reach the semis really was some achievement. I'm sure that a good few of these lads will go on to play fir their provinces.

The dominance hasn't but the players are starting to filter though.

Ever since the year with Ben Youngs it's been a conveyor belt of talent going straight into the AP then into the full side.

Over the last few years we've seen Marler, Brookes, Thomas, Launchbury, Lawes, Vuinipola x 2, Farrell, Tuilagi, Wade, Yarde, Burns, Ford, Nowell, May, Strettle, Kvesic and more come into the full set up and most making an impact. It's a shame the England football team can't mirror what the rugby is doing.

[SecretFly]

So what's the suggestion? Ban kids from gyms? Try reverse the game? I mean, sure England are now miles ahead technologically, but Ireland are more advanced than, say Zimbabwe. So do we level the playing field by minimising England's Tech savvy, but allowing the Ireland to stay ahead of poorer countries?

We do whatever England wants to do.  We do what they want to do.  This is not a HALT message I'm delivering.  

But when I hear the words 'demolishing the Oirish', I'll do a little science and reason and economy chat to give more reasons for the demolision than Port proffered to give when he was drinking his champagne.

I'm not telling England to go backwards.  Backwards doesn't happen in the real world.  I don't want England to go backwards anymore than I'd want Ireland to go backwards.  
But going forward rapidly less quickly than England is now a real risk not just for Ireland but for other smaller nations.  That might be inconsequential to England - and naturally so.  But it ain't inconsequential to me.  I'm Irish - not English, so I worry about the risk of England pulling away from the rest of us on terms that we could never match - namely finance required to sustain the levels of progress.

Secret I think it's reasonable to talk about how England are getting success at this level, what they're able to do that others can't. But it feels like you think in winning we somehow think we have innately more talented rugby players than you guys. I don't, I don't think people are born rugby players - some may have special skills like hand eye coordination etc but even that's probably come about from some form of informal training as well. We do however seem to have better rugby players at this level, partly for those reasons you mention. Like most sportsmen they are better due to the practice, science etc. that they're able to put in.

Appreciate that you took my posts in the spirit they were meant to be taken, Hood.  I salute you.  

No I don't think your winning makes me feel that you guys think you are innately more talented than us.  I just didn't appreciate the "Oirish" bit of Port's comment... it was needlessly dismissive of a side that were already humilated on the field of play.  Now I know Port - and we tet-a-tet regularly and no harm in it.  I was just putting a 'reasons for' cannonball across his bow to ground him a tad again.  We toy around a bit us two.  

Others decided to join the fray as is their right... but it was a game between me and Portnoy.  But again, thanks for the reply that dealt with the topic rather than the poster  

[Cumbrian]

It's an odd thing, typically whenever England have done well at this level over the last few years I've read these types of threads and I've been met with two general conclusions. The first is it's all about the size, the inference being that they will not have the skills to succeed at the highest level when the players from other teams have 'caught up'.

The second conclusion is that England have ALWAYS been good at U20 level and the inference is that it's done no good for us so far.

I've followed youth rugby since the start of the U20 format and I've never been as optimistic and enthusiastic as I am now. Every year the players have been better in both skill and decision making. The idea that they are simply big lumbering forwards beating opposition into submission is misguided. I feel like England are on the edge of a special era and this time there is progression in place.

I don't get the moralising about money put towards player development either. Are England somehow wrong for doing this? Surely spending money on making players the best they can possibly be is a good thing? It's not like it's being spent on providing a pension for former All Blacks, Wallabies or Springboks.

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