The "All-in" Junior world cup thread

[Taylorman]

First topic message reminder :

With 6 games on today didnt feel like jumping around the various u20 posts for each side...

On now is Scotland vs SA- Scots ahead after 16 mins 5-0, now SA 7-5 after 18.

Wales are leading Fiji 14-5 after scoring a try after 7 seconds! An average kick of to the left was left to bounce by the Fijians and Wales came through at full pace catching the ball after the bounce and scored in the corner. Other than the ball bouncing I don't think you can get a quicker try.

Aus thrashed Argie 36-17.

[profitius]

Can we read anything into this though about NZ?

Perhaps will be the first time they don't make the SF.... the 3rd year in a row they don't pick up the title.
.

I think its more to do with the other teams catching up. They also had Rennie as coach a few years back.

[blackcanelion]

Can we read anything into this though about NZ?

Perhaps will be the first time they don't make the SF.... the 3rd year in a row they don't pick up the title.

Probably a blip to be honest but the SA team looks a lot bigger then they used to be. 3-4 years back they would get smashed physically by ENG & NZ. Not so much now. They're evolving.

Haven't seen the game. But followed it during a long 4 hour drive home. Sounds like SA more than deserved thier win and completely outplayed us up front. They deserve full credit

I think it's looking like we probably wont make the semis at home. I'm thinking England, France, South Africa and Ireland.

I ranted earlier in the week that I think the NZRFU need to revisit the age group game. I think we were successful and have been since overtaken by a number of other nations and need a strategic review. There is no real age group structure comparable with many teams we play now. We need age group international matches. That and a real need to keep the top players in union and stop the recent loss of many top school boys to league.

But that's for another day. The baby boks were better than us.

[Biltong]

There is no real age group structure comparable with many teams we play now. We need age group international matches

We need a Quad nations.

[blackcanelion]

There is no real age group structure comparable with many teams we play now. We need age group international matches

We need a Quad nations.

Bring it back. I'm with you. Under 18, under 19 and under 20. or at least the first 2.

[Welly]

Imagine if England beat NZ and NZ U20 didn't make the semis in there own JWC.

 The New Zealand Herald will be meltdown.

 yeh quad nations would work.

 Think the better option would be U18 and U20 as many of the U19 players would prob be in the U20 squad anyway.

 Although Samoa U20 are looking more impressive as well.

[Biltong]

I don't think more than one age group tournament is financially viable, U20 should be good enough.

[blackcanelion]

You're probably right. But we also need something around the under 18 or under 19 age group as well. It's about progression, development and competing with league. One of the big things for us is exposing our younger players to differing teams strengths. For example high quality scrummaging and mauling.

[LeinsterFan4life]

It has to be said the ref for the Wales Ireland game was outstanding imo. He really did everything he could to let the game flow.

[brennomac]

Didn't get to the see the game v Wales - but the way the results have gone elsewhere a bonus point win v Fiji in the last game would give the Ireland juniors 11 pts, and this means they couldn't be caught by the Baby Blacks or the Aussies (both can only get a max of 10 pts after being beaten by the Baby Boks and England)- and a guaranteed semi final slot as 4th seed.

If that happens, would be a great result for the juniors

[brennomac]

Positions after two games

A
Team W D L PTS
England 2 0 0 10
Australia 1 0 1 5
Italy 1 0 1 4
Argentina 0 0 2 1

Games to come - Australia-Italy, England-Argentine - 5 points to Aus and Eng so final positions - Eng 15pts, Aus 10 pts

B
Team W D L PTS
France 2 0 0 9
Ireland 1 0 1 6
Wales 1 0 1 5
Fiji 0 0 2 0

Games to come - Irl-Fiji, Fra-Wales - 5 pts (please) for Irl and Fra - so final positions Fra 14pts, Irl 11pts

C
Team W D L PTS
South Africa 2 0 0 10
New Zealand 1 0 1 5
Samoa 1 0 1 4
Scotland 0 0 2 0

Games to come - NZ-Sco and SA-Samoa - so final positions maybe SA 14pts, NZ 10 pts.

Eng, Fra/SA (not sure which order) and Irl get SF - with Eng-Irl and Fra-SA.

At least that's what all us Irish will be hoping for and NZ will be dreading

[SecretFly]

So we get the short straw if we get England in a semi or France or SA in a final?

Good luck guys.  I've been a harsh critic but if you get to a semi-final with England I'll be.... even harsher ;)because then I'll expect you to overcome the odds there and charge into a surprise surprise final!

But first Fiji.  Nothing happens unless Fiji result happens.

[Biltong]

Just watched our match vs New Zealand.

Pack was good at set pieces, maul looked good at times, defence from 1-13 looked good, 14 and 15 are turnstiles.

Our ball skills was pathetic, either behind the next runner, too high, too low or even into touch.

We will need to work hard on those two issues

[majesticimperialman]

Just seen the last 15/ minutes of the game. SA was really strong in the defence, they shut NZ down all the time. But the break out from NZ under their own post was typical of the NZ game.

England do seem to be doing well. Wish i had taped soe of the games too watch over the week end.

[blackcanelion]

I think all teams can improve. From an NZ perspective I've been saying for a year or two that we can't expect to compete at this level with the limited structure and preparation we have. It's not just England and South Africa, I think we'll struggle against the likes of Wales, Ireland and France. Australia are in the same position as NZ.

All's not lost. Failure to make the top 4 should see changes made. The good thing we can improve exponentially relatively easily. We just need a bit of investment and thought.

[Taylorman]

Very chuffed about this win, I ad to record it as I had to work, but will watch it tonight.

Quite surprised that the Baby Boks managed this win to be honest.

I wasnt biltong...watched both their first matches and the b/boks were by far the better side. Our stupid TAB had them at 2.70 to win, ABs at 1.40- obviously playing to one eyed kiwis who really didnt take in the first games efforts...so I jumped on it...  

[rainbow-warrior]

Yeah, you seem to be on that higher level for all things right handed.....doh!!  don't tell me you're left handed...........either way well done, knock one out for us all aye  

I'm afraid it don't work that way, rainbow.  Me do the work and you reap the pleasure?  
Nah...you really do need to get a good Sex Lessons for the Hard of Hearing text book if you want to become more proficient at the ancient Behind the Schoolyard Shed Benny Hill Humour gags.

Oy! You two. Get a room!

The horror being in a room with a guy who chokes his chicken several times a day. Bugger that.

[SecretFly]

Somebody has got a fixation for Hand Job allusions!
Perhaps 606 should start a Dedicated Hand Job Section for the Prematurely Blind and Fatally Obsessed. Warrior could edit the Braille comments.

[Scrumpy]

Have these Fiji lads ever played 15 a side before?

[blackcanelion]

By some bizaare twist of fate the NZ under 20's can make the main semi final if they win with a bonus point. England and South Africa are in. Australia are currently in 4th and NZ's the only side that can overtake them. We need to score 4 tries and win by 4 points. NZ should win (Scotland lost all their games in the six nation and the world championships so far). Scoring 4 tries might be a problem.
So far this year Scotland under 20 has conceded:
8 tries v South Africa
3 tries v Samoa
6 tries v Wales
2 tries v France
4 tries v Italy
5 tries v England
4 tries v Ireland
Looks good until I realise we have to score 4 tries, it's at night and it's wet.

[George Carlin]

By some bizaare twist of fate the NZ under 20's can make the main semi final if they win with a bonus point. England and South Africa are in. Australia are currently in 4th and NZ's the only side that can overtake them. We need to score 4 tries and win by 4 points. NZ should win (Scotland lost all their games in the six nation and the world championships so far). Scoring 4 tries might be a problem.
So far this year Scotland under 20 has conceded:
8 tries v South Africa
3 tries v Samoa
6 tries v Wales
2 tries v France
4 tries v Italy
5 tries v England
4 tries v Ireland
Looks good until I realise we have to score 4 tries, it's at night and it's wet.

  That's the most depressing post I have ever read on these boards. Curling, anyone?

[blackcanelion]

Sorry GC. Wasn't aimed at Scots fans.

Just looked at the IRB website

1/2 time
Samoa 8 South Africa 7
Argentina 6 England 9

Both England and Argentina have scored their first tries since then. 4 tries looking to be a big ask for the Kiwi boys.

[alive555]

By some bizaare twist of fate the NZ under 20's can make the main semi final if they win with a bonus point. England and South Africa are in. Australia are currently in 4th and NZ's the only side that can overtake them. We need to score 4 tries and win by 4 points. NZ should win (Scotland lost all their games in the six nation and the world championships so far). Scoring 4 tries might be a problem.
So far this year Scotland under 20 has conceded:
8 tries v South Africa
3 tries v Samoa
6 tries v Wales
2 tries v France
4 tries v Italy
5 tries v England
4 tries v Ireland
Looks good until I realise we have to score 4 tries, it's at night and it's wet.

  That's the most depressing post I have ever read on these boards. Curling, anyone?

can someone tell me why scotland are rank at senior rugby but even worse at junior ?

[SecretFly]

Kilts?

More seriously, I think that's how logic goes - weak at junior grade informing the fact that difficulties still exist into senior grade.  
Numbers, numbers, numbers.  Two Professional clubs V how many from other and in other nations?  It ain't rocket science.

[blackcanelion]

2 tries. 1/2 way there.

[SecretFly]

2 tries. 1/2 way there.

I never thought I'd see the day that we (Ireland) would be waiting for New Zealand to join us in the semi-finals!

Foot tapping impatiently here!!! Hurry up. We're waiting.  Time is money. You're holding us all back here.

[blackcanelion]

3 tries at 1/2 time. Need one in the second half. Scrums poor and fields kak. 21-0. Scotland should be closer, not sure why ref didn't give them a penalty try at the end. I'm going guess the ref thought Scotland must have infringed before it was blatantly obvious they would roll over the line. I'd have given it.

Even if we get through It's looking like a SA-England final. I think the semis are looking like:
England v Ireland
South Africa v (Australia or NZ)

[blackcanelion]

NZ's there. 4th try will probably be discussed. There was a question of a knock on. It's hard to see, looked to be off the knee, but I'm sure others may see it differently. I guess there's a slight chance Scotland will come back and outscore the NZ under 20 team by at least 24 points over the next 30 minutes (they are currently scoreless).

It looks like:
Semis
SA v NZ
England v Ireland

5-8 semis
Australia v Samoa
Wales v France

9-12 semis
Italy v Scotland
Argentina v Fiji

My punt for the final rankings at the end of the tournament will be
1. South Africa
2. England
3. New Zealand
4. Ireland
5. Australia
6. Wales
7. France
8. Samoa
9. Argentina
10. Italy
11. Fiji
12. Scotland

[kiakahaaotearoa]

In a way it might have been better if NZ hadn't made the semis. If we get to the semi or final, it might make it seem the status quo can continue. Not making the semis might be a catalyst for change. However, I see that as unlikely with the match as it is. But the forwards in the last few years have appeared to be very green.

[blackcanelion]

In a way it might have been better if NZ hadn't made the semis. If we get to the semi or final, it might make it seem the status quo can continue. Not making the semis might be a catalyst for change. However, I see that as unlikely with the match as it is. But the forwards in the last few years have appeared to be very green.

Couldn't agree more.

[SecretFly]

I'm delighted that Ireland on this occasion at least have closed something of the gap between the level of expectation for this age group and expectations for the senior group.

I firmly believe the two groups should function at roughly the same levels respectively within their zones for rugby to be sustainable.  Ireland have been struggling there for a while and to struggle in this group suggests you might struggle a few years down the line at senior level too.  I know that isn't a solid connection but a good number of world class seniors do emerge from this age level so I'm happy that Ireland pushed themselves into the semis.

Yes... England will be backed to do a hatchet job on us - no mercy, no prisoners!  But as long as you're in the game, there is always a chance that you could upset the procession.  It seems Argentina almost already did.  So the Irish players will give it a go.

[beshocked]

I'm delighted that Ireland on this occasion at least have closed something of the gap between the level of expectation for this age group and expectations for the senior group.

I firmly believe the two groups should function at roughly the same levels respectively within their zones for rugby to be sustainable.  Ireland have been struggling there for a while and to struggle in this group suggests you might struggle a few years down the line at senior level too.  I know that isn't a solid connection but a good number of world class seniors do emerge from this age level so I'm happy that Ireland pushed themselves into the semis.

Yes... England will be backed to do a hatchet job on us - no mercy, no prisoners!  But as long as you're in the game, there is always a chance that you could upset the procession.  It seems Argentina almost already did.  So the Irish players will give it a go.

Secretfly thought England rested most of their best players vs Argentina......

[SecretFly]

Thus the hatchet job that will be predicted for us come the semi, beshocked

[Geordie]

Kilts?

More seriously, I think that's how logic goes - weak at junior grade informing the fact that difficulties still exist into senior grade.  
Numbers, numbers, numbers.  Two Professional clubs V how many from other and in other nations?  It ain't rocket science.

I agree...and this causes bigger issues on a more wider European basis.

Many calls for changes to European rugby ...namely the 6n. At the moment its not an issue however if the likes of Georgia etc continue their progression they will over take the likes of Italy and Scotland and then you have to consider changes.
Be it a Euro Championships of some sort.

[beshocked]

Secretfly England will be favourites but nothing is guaranteed. One should not be complacent.

[Biltong]

So this means we have to beat NZ again to make the finals?

Geez, stacking the odds against ourselves.

[SecretFly]

Kilts?

More seriously, I think that's how logic goes - weak at junior grade informing the fact that difficulties still exist into senior grade.  
Numbers, numbers, numbers.  Two Professional clubs V how many from other and in other nations?  It ain't rocket science.

I agree...and this causes bigger issues on a more wider European basis.

Many calls for changes to European rugby ...namely the 6n. At the moment its not an issue however if the likes of Georgia etc continue their progression they will over take the likes of Italy and Scotland and then you have to consider changes.
Be it a Euro Championships of some sort.

I'm not sure Euro Championships would consolidate Scottish rugby.  The bigger Europe gets in 'united' terms the more resources (players, coaches, expertise, sponsorship, TV rights power) will feed into a centre.  A central hub sucking all creativity and strength from the periphery isn't a solution for Scottish rugby in my opinion but a death knell.

What Scottish rugby needs is Scottish rugby heads putting their hands up and saying what they've been doing/trying since professionalism started, hasn't worked.  So whatever they've been doing and thinking has been mostly wrong.  So it needs to be rethought and perhaps a lot of new people brought in to administration to work out the details of how to stall the rot and recharge the batteries.  
First things first is that 2 professional sides is simply not enough.  They can moan about the economics as much as they like.  Survival means creating more professional sides in whatever way they can.  If they can't afford it then they'll be admitting that they can afford to just die.  They'll have to find a way, and with a 5 million population they have room and potential financial resources to have at least two more professional sides.

There is too much concentration on the number two in Scotland.  Two realistic football clubs - one of them gone on a techincality and the other one cruises the league.  Two isn't a healthy number to fixate on.

[Geordie]

Sorry, i didnt come across well there.

I agree totally with you that their set up doesnt work. I have argued that on this site for a long time.

We often joke that us, (Newcastle Falcons) are a better academy feeder than their teams   

However What i meant is IF Scotland dont improve themselves then they could be in serious trouble of falling behind other younger rugby playing nations like Gerogia, Romania, Germany etc etc

There are already big noises that some of the founding 6n teams are only there by default of them being "founder nations"...but if those other teams over take them and the likes of Italy, then it will be difficult not to changes things.

[blackcanelion]

So this means we have to beat NZ again to make the finals?

Geez, stacking the odds against ourselves.

Nah, your guys look awesome. We aren't going to suddenly develop a forward pack that can compete with you. Look on the bright side you get to a bok side crush the men in black 2x in NZ in the matter of a few weeks.

[Taylorman]

In a way it might have been better if NZ hadn't made the semis. If we get to the semi or final, it might make it seem the status quo can continue. Not making the semis might be a catalyst for change. However, I see that as unlikely with the match as it is. But the forwards in the last few years have appeared to be very green.

Couldn't agree more.

geez you guys are terrible. Both England and SA could have lost tonight even though they were already in, but not a good way to approach the semis, NZ finishing faster, also with the newbies.

We're in with a chance and last time I checked that's generally all we ever want. Cmon kiwis, get in behind em...

[alive555]

Kilts?

More seriously, I think that's how logic goes - weak at junior grade informing the fact that difficulties still exist into senior grade.  
Numbers, numbers, numbers.  Two Professional clubs V how many from other and in other nations?  It ain't rocket science.

I agree...and this causes bigger issues on a more wider European basis.

Many calls for changes to European rugby ...namely the 6n. At the moment its not an issue however if the likes of Georgia etc continue their progression they will over take the likes of Italy and Scotland and then you have to consider changes.
Be it a Euro Championships of some sort.

I'm not sure Euro Championships would consolidate Scottish rugby.  The bigger Europe gets in 'united' terms the more resources (players, coaches, expertise, sponsorship, TV rights power) will feed into a centre.  A central hub sucking all creativity and strength from the periphery isn't a solution for Scottish rugby in my opinion but a death knell.

What Scottish rugby needs is Scottish rugby heads putting their hands up and saying what they've been doing/trying since professionalism started, hasn't worked.  So whatever they've been doing and thinking has been mostly wrong.  So it needs to be rethought and perhaps a lot of new people brought in to administration to work out the details of how to stall the rot and recharge the batteries.  
First things first is that 2 professional sides is simply not enough.  They can moan about the economics as much as they like.  Survival means creating more professional sides in whatever way they can.  If they can't afford it then they'll be admitting that they can afford to just die.  They'll have to find a way, and with a 5 million population they have room and potential financial resources to have at least two more professional sides.

There is too much concentration on the number two in Scotland.  Two realistic football clubs - one of them gone on a techincality and the other one cruises the league.  Two isn't a healthy number to fixate on.

the poor showing by the scotland juniors is testament that the sru are NOT addressing the root problem of scottish rugby development. Namely they are NOT growing the sport at grass roots level.

If they were you would see it in the results, and those results would be on an upward curve, which they are not. They are regressing, not progressing.

The sru should put this as top priority, and if they cant effect larger playing numbers and correspondingly better results on the pitch they should stand down en masse and let a sports management consultancy firm, ex players and coaches take over. They know how to run rugby. If not them anyone else is going to be better than the goons who are the SRU   

Time is seriously running out.

[alive555]

Here is the proof in the pudding SRU. ;-

South Africa 61-5 Scotland
Samoa 27-18 Scotland
New Zealand 54-7 Scotland

So :- For 30 Against 142

Embarrasing, really shouldnt be in this competition.

Think relegation if fail to win playoff against Italy (likely as they are a good side) - and the relegation round which comes after ?

[profitius]

Well it was an eventful mornings rugby! NZ make it through thanks to the Welsh. With the bad conditions the French probably saw the writing on the wall especially coming up against that Welsh scrum .

Ireland get the job done.It wasn't plain sailing but in those conditions they did alright. Garry Ringrose is one to watch for Ireland. His style of play reminds me of Conrad Smith.


As for Scotland, its shocking to see those results. At least the SRU are going to use the BT money to help underage rugby in Scotland. Its a slow process though so don't expect to see improvements for a few years.

[Biltong]

So this means we have to beat NZ again to make the finals?

Geez, stacking the odds against ourselves.

Nah, your guys look awesome. We aren't going to suddenly develop a forward pack that can compete with you. Look on the bright side you get to a bok side crush the men in black 2x in NZ in the matter of a few weeks.

The Baby Boks has now beaten the Junior AB's three times in succession, it is highly likely that the tables will be turned, home town and when was the Junior AB's ever beaten 4 times in a row by anyone?

[SecretFly]

The Baby Boks has now beaten the Junior AB's three times in succession, it is highly likely that the tables will be turned, home town and when was the Junior AB's ever beaten 4 times in a row by anyone?

It happened on the 15 June 2014 actually, if memory serves me right.

[Geordie]

So this means we have to beat NZ again to make the finals?

Geez, stacking the odds against ourselves.

Nah, your guys look awesome. We aren't going to suddenly develop a forward pack that can compete with you. Look on the bright side you get to a bok side crush the men in black 2x in NZ in the matter of a few weeks.

The Baby Boks has now beaten the Junior AB's three times in succession, it is highly likely that the tables will be turned, home town and when was the Junior AB's ever beaten 4 times in a row by anyone?

Ah Bilts, there always a first for everything.

The Ab aura is beginning to slip at all levels    

[SecretFly]

The ABs almost losing a game is positively a disaster for them! Their fans even took to using bad language. Any year now, in the next decade or so, and they might lose two games in one season and I'll be laughing when it happens. Chancers, the lot of them. The game is up!!!

[George Carlin]

Kilts?

More seriously, I think that's how logic goes - weak at junior grade informing the fact that difficulties still exist into senior grade.  
Numbers, numbers, numbers.  Two Professional clubs V how many from other and in other nations?  It ain't rocket science.

I agree...and this causes bigger issues on a more wider European basis.

Many calls for changes to European rugby ...namely the 6n. At the moment its not an issue however if the likes of Georgia etc continue their progression they will over take the likes of Italy and Scotland and then you have to consider changes.
Be it a Euro Championships of some sort.

I'm not sure Euro Championships would consolidate Scottish rugby.  The bigger Europe gets in 'united' terms the more resources (players, coaches, expertise, sponsorship, TV rights power) will feed into a centre.  A central hub sucking all creativity and strength from the periphery isn't a solution for Scottish rugby in my opinion but a death knell.

What Scottish rugby needs is Scottish rugby heads putting their hands up and saying what they've been doing/trying since professionalism started, hasn't worked.  So whatever they've been doing and thinking has been mostly wrong.  So it needs to be rethought and perhaps a lot of new people brought in to administration to work out the details of how to stall the rot and recharge the batteries.  
First things first is that 2 professional sides is simply not enough.  They can moan about the economics as much as they like.  Survival means creating more professional sides in whatever way they can.  If they can't afford it then they'll be admitting that they can afford to just die.  They'll have to find a way, and with a 5 million population they have room and potential financial resources to have at least two more professional sides.

There is too much concentration on the number two in Scotland.  Two realistic football clubs - one of them gone on a techincality and the other one cruises the league.  Two isn't a healthy number to fixate on.

the poor showing by the scotland juniors is testament that the sru are NOT addressing the root problem of scottish rugby development. Namely they are NOT growing the sport at grass roots level.

If they were you would see it in the results, and those results would be on an upward curve, which they are not. They are regressing, not progressing.

The sru should put this as top priority, and if they cant effect larger playing numbers and correspondingly better results on the pitch they should stand down en masse and let a sports management consultancy firm, ex players and coaches take over. They know how to run rugby. If not them anyone else is going to be better than the goons who are the SRU   

Time is seriously running out.

New academies open this year or next, don't they? That would put us only, oh, 5 years behind the most backwards other Tier 1 nation.

Beg for mercy, opponents.  

[Taylorman]

So this means we have to beat NZ again to make the finals?

Geez, stacking the odds against ourselves.

Nah, your guys look awesome. We aren't going to suddenly develop a forward pack that can compete with you. Look on the bright side you get to a bok side crush the men in black 2x in NZ in the matter of a few weeks.

The Baby Boks has now beaten the Junior AB's three times in succession, it is highly likely that the tables will be turned, home town and when was the Junior AB's ever beaten 4 times in a row by anyone?

Ah Bilts, there always a first for everything.

The Ab aura is beginning to slip at all levels    

yes, especially the ABs...theyre slipping from 100% to..oh its still 100%. oh perhaps its the 7's? no..um the women? hmm. thats ok too.

That aside, the Boks certainly looked the best side in pool play. But our positives... we've had 3 games together now...that makes it all up for this side...oh...3.

We're at home. We've already tasted defeat from the Baby boks. We're underdogs. Heaps of things going for them. Enough to beat this side? Probably not. But at least we've been given a chance.

[Taylorman]

England have beaten Ireland convincingly to take one spot. Waiting to see if our boys can better the baby boks, baby the misleading description here. This is one big side. As long as we get every ball to Tevita Li we may have a chance.

[Taylorman]

great start from the b/ blacks...try in the left corner...hope yet!

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