Richie Gray, best lock in the world?

First topic message reminder :

You'll have to allow me to indulge in this one for a moment, after being involved in a cracking debate on another thread I got looking up some stats on Richie Gray. Now us Scots don't have a lot to be optimistic about at the moment, after another dismal 6N we do have some glimmers of light.

The biggest glimmer, litteraly has to be Richie Gray.

6ft 9 and 19st 12 he is a monster of a man. In the 6N thusfar he has these impressive statistics :

Meters Carried = 89
Clean breaks = 2
Defenders Beaten = 3
Tackles made = 15
Tackles Missed = 0
Lineouts Won = 11
Opposition Linouts spoiled / won = 4


All well and good, however take into account the other fantastic players in the 6N thusfar. Gray has made more clean breaks and carried the ball further than Jamie Roberts or George North and beaten more defenders than Roberts too.

His defensive record is phenomenal too winning or spoiling 4 opposition lineouts and makeing 15 tackles and missing none.

So, is he the best lock in the world? It has to be said even without my navy blue tinted glasses on I'm struggling to think of a better lock playing at the moment. Happy to hear from other poster as to their suggestions for the accolade of best lock in the world.

Oh and he's only 22.

I’m not going to vote in the poll because I couldn’t be arsed getting off the fence.

He’s among the best in the world and any team would start him, because I don’t think anyone has 2 locks better than him.
I wish he had more ambition than going to Sale and we could have asked Wagga to have a word and send him Leinster’s way, but thems the breaks.

I don't think Lawes possesses the rugby intelligence to become a lineout leader. I just cannot see him calling them to an effective level. In terms of his actual prowess in the lineout, he has improved that aspect of his game dramtically in the past 18 months. he is a very athletic guy who gets up well and can secure his own ball and disrupt the opposition.

He is also a massive tackler. I would like to see him really carrying hard a bit more, and developing a bit of nous, in terms of knowing when to make the big hits and when to wait, as at present he is looking to smash people all the time and sometimes gets caught out by clever players.

Potential to be a top class internaitonal though.

Feckless Rogue wrote:
c. For top class Heineken Cup rugby he should have come to Leinster. The best team in Europe. And we need a good lock.

I would have loved to seen him move to Leinster.

His choice of Sale Sharks is baffling to me tbh.

Mickado wrote:I’m not going to vote in the poll because I couldn’t be arsed getting off the fence.

He’s among the best in the world and any team would start him, because I don’t think anyone has 2 locks better than him.
I wish he had more ambition than going to Sale and we could have asked Wagga to have a word and send him Leinster’s way, but thems the breaks.

We had Sykes as a foreign lock at the time. Now he's gone. If he had left earlier, or if Gray had put off his decision until later we might have shown interest. But it was never an option due to timing.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:
c. For top class Heineken Cup rugby he should have come to Leinster. The best team in Europe. And we need a good lock.

I would have loved to seen him move to Leinster.

His choice of Sale Sharks is baffling to me tbh.

+1 Apparently, it's not too far from Glasgow

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Mickado wrote:I’m not going to vote in the poll because I couldn’t be arsed getting off the fence.

He’s among the best in the world and any team would start him, because I don’t think anyone has 2 locks better than him.
I wish he had more ambition than going to Sale and we could have asked Wagga to have a word and send him Leinster’s way, but thems the breaks.

We had Sykes as a foreign lock at the time. Now he's gone. If he had left earlier, or if Gray had put off his decision until later we might have shown interest. But it was never an option due to timing.

Ah i know, just one of those things.

Yes Gray is good in the loose, but most of the work of a lock should be done in the tight. And given that I would still have POC ahead of him.

Several above him at present. But does he have the potential to be the best - absolutely!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:You'll have to allow me to indulge in this one for a moment, after being involved in a cracking debate on another thread I got looking up some stats on Richie Gray. Now us Scots don't have a lot to be optimistic about at the moment, after another dismal 6N we do have some glimmers of light.

The biggest glimmer, litteraly has to be Richie Gray.

6ft 9 and 19st 12 he is a monster of a man. In the 6N thusfar he has these impressive statistics :

Meters Carried = 89
Clean breaks = 2
Defenders Beaten = 3
Tackles made = 15
Tackles Missed = 0
Lineouts Won = 11
Opposition Linouts spoiled / won = 4


All well and good, however take into account the other fantastic players in the 6N thusfar. Gray has made more clean breaks and carried the ball further than Jamie Roberts or George North and beaten more defenders than Roberts too.

His defensive record is phenomenal too winning or spoiling 4 opposition lineouts and makeing 15 tackles and missing none.

So, is he the best lock in the world? It has to be said even without my navy blue tinted glasses on I'm struggling to think of a better lock playing at the moment. Happy to hear from other poster as to their suggestions for the accolade of best lock in the world.

Oh and he's only 22.

Richie Gray is the new Jonah Lomu.

tooboredtowork wrote:Yes Gray is good in the loose, but most of the work of a lock should be done in the tight. And given that I would still have POC ahead of him.

Several above him at present. But does he have the potential to be the best - absolutely!

He has a huge workrate though on top of that. He makes plenty of tackles and constantly takes people out at the breakdown.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:
c. For top class Heineken Cup rugby he should have come to Leinster. The best team in Europe. And we need a good lock.

I would have loved to seen him move to Leinster.

His choice of Sale Sharks is baffling to me tbh.

+1 Apparently, it's not too far from Glasgow

This role was traditionally played by Newcastle...players like Doddie, Gary Armstrong, Peter Walton etc etc...

For us falcons to get stronger again we need to develop this link again. We have Murray, and young Shiels at prop coming through...but when we come back up i think this will develop again

miteyironpaw wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:You'll have to allow me to indulge in this one for a moment, after being involved in a cracking debate on another thread I got looking up some stats on Richie Gray. Now us Scots don't have a lot to be optimistic about at the moment, after another dismal 6N we do have some glimmers of light.

The biggest glimmer, litteraly has to be Richie Gray.

6ft 9 and 19st 12 he is a monster of a man. In the 6N thusfar he has these impressive statistics :

Meters Carried = 89
Clean breaks = 2
Defenders Beaten = 3
Tackles made = 15
Tackles Missed = 0
Lineouts Won = 11
Opposition Linouts spoiled / won = 4


All well and good, however take into account the other fantastic players in the 6N thusfar. Gray has made more clean breaks and carried the ball further than Jamie Roberts or George North and beaten more defenders than Roberts too.

His defensive record is phenomenal too winning or spoiling 4 opposition lineouts and makeing 15 tackles and missing none.

So, is he the best lock in the world? It has to be said even without my navy blue tinted glasses on I'm struggling to think of a better lock playing at the moment. Happy to hear from other poster as to their suggestions for the accolade of best lock in the world.

Oh and he's only 22.

Richie Gray is the new Jonah Lomu.

No, no, mitey, you've got that all wrong, he's the new George North

On the going to Sale thing - anyone else think that its a club were very promising players go and end up doing their careers a hell of a lot of damge?

I'm thinking Luke McAllister - going to Sale nearly finished his career, he ended up playing in the NPC instead of the Super 14 after it. He had much better options on the table as well, such as Munster and Toulouse.

Similarly Dwayne Peel - who has gone completely off the radar since joining Sale and it doesnt look like he will be playing international rugby ever again.

Lets hope the same doesnt happen to Richie Gray.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:You'll have to allow me to indulge in this one for a moment, after being involved in a cracking debate on another thread I got looking up some stats on Richie Gray. Now us Scots don't have a lot to be optimistic about at the moment, after another dismal 6N we do have some glimmers of light.

The biggest glimmer, litteraly has to be Richie Gray.

6ft 9 and 19st 12 he is a monster of a man. In the 6N thusfar he has these impressive statistics :

Meters Carried = 89
Clean breaks = 2
Defenders Beaten = 3
Tackles made = 15
Tackles Missed = 0
Lineouts Won = 11
Opposition Linouts spoiled / won = 4


All well and good, however take into account the other fantastic players in the 6N thusfar. Gray has made more clean breaks and carried the ball further than Jamie Roberts or George North and beaten more defenders than Roberts too.

His defensive record is phenomenal too winning or spoiling 4 opposition lineouts and makeing 15 tackles and missing none.

So, is he the best lock in the world? It has to be said even without my navy blue tinted glasses on I'm struggling to think of a better lock playing at the moment. Happy to hear from other poster as to their suggestions for the accolade of best lock in the world.

Oh and he's only 22.

Richie Gray is the new Jonah Lomu.

No, no, mitey, you've got that all wrong, he's the new George North

good one Sir.

He is a promising youngster.He shines for Scotland which ,as previously highlighted,is easlily achieved in the current crop.Hopefully he will continue to develop for his sake and Scotland's.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:My top 3 in no particular order: Sam Whitelock (NZ), Andries Bekker (RSA), Richie Gray (Sco)

I would agree with this, feel Bekker is about the best based on his form last year before the injury, followed by Whitelock and then Grey. Was a little unconvinced about Whitelock before the WC and couldn't understand how he was keeping Williams from starting but saw why as the tournament progressed. Behind these 3 Horwill looks a much better player since he moved from number 8 but I'm not convinced he will ever be one of the top second rows out there.

Bekker can look immense in some games. When I first saw him (coming on as a sub for SA) I made the mistake of thinking he would just be a tall beanpole type, lineout only player who would offer nothing in the loose. He didn't show much coming on in those games but then I saw him in the S14 / S15....

I actually feel that second row is not an area of great strength in world rugby at the moment. Matfield and Thron were probably the best of the last couple of years, along with POC based on his 2008 / 2009 form. Agree Grey and Lawes have serious potential and both have more pace than I can remember for second rows (I still wonder if Lawes would make a better 6 in the long term). Agree with GF, Lawes really needs to become a lineout specialist so he covers more of the essentials of second row play.

Probably the best lock in the world.

He and Lawes will make a good Lions combination.

Feckless: Perhaps he didn't want to move too far from Glasgow. Sale's just down the West Coast Mainland. And maybe he like Man Utd.

I'm not sure everyone is basing their beleifs on the correct things tbh...

Bekker looked unimpressive when Ive seen him in the SA shirt, looks like he is struggling to make the step up so far, although his S15 form is very good.

Whitelock is a cracking player, but I would've looked good in the NZ engine room, I actually thought that in the WC the likes of Charteris, Davies and Pape looked much better!

What defining characteristics are you all looking at?

Gray is certainly a very dynamic player, but he does a lot of work out wider than he should, and Scotland tend to struggle at the breakdown, and get outmuscled. I think Hamilton is more important to the Scottish cause, if not as dynami a player, he is much more aggressive, and does more damage around the fringe.

His lineout work is also quite poor for a guy with such a height advantage, similarly to Charteris, neither inspire a confident lineout, or set peice in general, I get the feeling the engine room could use a bit more power.

Don't get me wrong, I like Gray, and think he will be a top class lock in a few seasons, granted that he grows more mature, but in my opinion would take a POC, Davies, Pape type any day of the week over him, and thats not mentioning the SH much more well rounded players!!!

I keep hearing the comments on his line out and i am a bit confused. last year scotlabd has.the best line out both in terms of won and stolens. this year i think Scotland has a 100% record and stolen a fair bit of ball. what more can they do

Ps i do think the best.in the world yet but darn good and hope he continues to develop

Do not

Agree with Biltong. Bekker to me is peerless at the minute. Gray is getting there and i would have him above Whitelock at present.

I would also say that Charteris was the standout lock at the RWC for me. If he gets back to that form the what a pairing for the lions

Riskysports wrote:I keep hearing the comments on his line out and i am a bit confused. last year scotlabd has.the best line out both in terms of won and stolens. this year i think Scotland has a 100% record and stolen a fair bit of ball. what more can they do

Risky, yes that is a mystery - he nearly single-handedly destroyed Wales lineout in the first half on Sunday, but you can't make people see what they don't want to

A pairing of Gray and Charteris for the lions is terrifying... from the lions point of view, and you can add Lawes in there too!!!

The 3 above are good athletes, Lawes and Gray being immensely dynamic, and Charteris strength is very good but none have any real nous for the game!

I would much rather see the likes of Davies, and POC. Players who can use their noggins, turn a lineout, really aid the scrum, and do the dirty work when things get tough, instead of run around a little like headless chickens.

Please don't all come back with the tip tackle, one clanger and Davies is a lepar, like Lawes hasn't taken a cheap shot, Thorn Matfeild and Bakkies never did anything wrong.

not sure Blues man. Yes certainly Gray and Lawes are young but Charteris has been around a while. I dont think Davies (Bradley i assume) has any more nous than the first three named (well maybe more than Lawes). POC of course is vastly experience and should be there or thereabouts but if (and it is a big if) Charteris and Gray are still performing to the same level i think they might be the way to go.

Gray, Davies, Charteris, Lawes, POC

Thats not a bad selection for the Lions to pick from.

Oh I agree ulsterman, they are my picks for the lions, but I just think it's too risky not having the muscle in the tight if Gray and Lawes are on the pitch together, or in the lineout if Law and Charteris are together etc...

Bradley has become a rock at the front of the Welsh lineout, without him the lineout wouldve collapsed within itself completely! POC just knows his job and reads the game, Lawes turns to headless chicken mode, and Gray tends to think he's an openside at times.

Charteris has been around for a while, but has only just shown any real class, and then got seriously injured so it is still to be seen as to whether he is any good, or just enjoyed Wales good form at the world cup

Feckless Rogue wrote:The most exciting young 2nd row prospect in the world. Not the best in the world yet. He'll definitely be on the Lions tour and we'll see how he does in a much stronger team.

I have to say I'm very disappointed in his decision to go to Sale for less money that Glasgow were offering. Scottish rugby needs to hold onto stars like him. His logic was that Glasgow don't have much hope of going far in the HEC, so he thinks playing in the Premiership would increase his chances of being selected for the Lions.

a. He'll be selected for Lions anyway based on his great performances for Scotland
b. Why Sale?? There are far better teams in Europe who would have signed him I'm sure.
c. For top class Heineken Cup rugby he should have come to Leinster. The best team in Europe. And we need a good lock.

Why sale - cos they are good with their players and he can get back to Scotland for scottish training easily

Best in the world? Maybe but he has to prove it over the next year or two

As well as the attibutes discussed he also is great with the ball in hand. Fast for a big man and taller than 6'9 as well

couple of youtube clips for you from last year
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7YFIk7wHNU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSpiYWB-5Sk

And with those I looks I presume he attracts the 'pink' vote.

I take it this thread is a joke?

Artful_Dodger wrote:On the going to Sale thing - anyone else think that its a club were very promising players go and end up doing their careers a hell of a lot of damge?

I'm thinking Luke McAllister - going to Sale nearly finished his career, he ended up playing in the NPC instead of the Super 14 after it. He had much better options on the table as well, such as Munster and Toulouse.

Similarly Dwayne Peel - who has gone completely off the radar since joining Sale and it doesnt look like he will be playing international rugby ever again.

Lets hope the same doesnt happen to Richie Gray.

Matt Tait didn't exactly fulfill his early promise after going to Same either

And I agree that Jim Hamilton is a highly underrated player and he and Gray compliment each other very well and I would consider using them as a pair for the Lions

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I take it this thread is a joke?

No, Sgt, I don't believe it is. Would you care to offer your alternatives?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I take it this thread is a joke?

Is that all you have to contribute? Can't you come up with reasons as to why you think he is not the best player in the world? Or are you just happy to insult my carefully considered thread?

I don't tend to bother thinking about 'the' best in the world as it's generally subjective, can have completely different definitions (best on average, best one off) and depend on the team they have around them.

But I will say he's one of the best.

thebluesmancometh wrote: His lineout work is also quite poor for a guy with such a height advantage, similarly to Charteris, neither inspire a confident lineout, or set peice in general, I get the feeling the engine room could use a bit more power.

Really! - 97% line out record in last 6 nations - almost 100% record this 6 nations

Steals balls from the opp for fun at times and is generally thought of by the pundits as the most dangerous line out person in the 6 nations

I would agree his scrummaging is poor and needs work on, but his line out is second to none!

thebluesmancometh wrote:

I would much rather see the likes of Davies, and POC. Players who can use their noggins,

Hmmm....as much as I rate him, I don't think Davies can be classed as a player who uses his noggin! Especially after his actions resulting in the7 week ban!

When I saw the title of this article my immediate thought was "pffft stupid Scots talking up their own".

Then I thought about it and find myself rating Gray a lot higher than I thought I did.

I like the combo that someone above mentioned for the Lions; Gray and Charteris. That would be great. But would they provide enough grunt? Traditionally they'd be paired with an enforcer or ball carrier, so maybe Gray and Davies, or Gray and Wyn Jones would be the better combo...?

Blue,

Personally I think one somone else in the pack can do the grunt/carrying it will be fine. It doesnt have to big a diverse lock pairing.

red_stag wrote:When I saw the title of this article my immediate thought was "pffft stupid Scots talking up their own".

Then I thought about it and find myself rating Gray a lot higher than I thought I did.

"Stupid" cheers staggy

No probs Radge

red_stag wrote:Blue,

Personally I think one somone else in the pack can do the grunt/carrying it will be fine. It doesnt have to big a diverse lock pairing.

Yeh, I guess it's likely that Ferris or SOB (or both!) will be Lions starters, and they carry like gorillas.

On the subject of exciting players in Scotland and potential Lions...

Denton... DENTON! Oh Jesus Christ DENTTTTTTOONNNNNN!

Appropriate seeing as he runs away like a dog too!

So according to the poll, twice as many people think that Gray isn't world class asthose that think he is.

Chunky Norwich wrote:So according to the poll, twice as many people think that Gray isn't world class asthose that think he is.

Not quite - they they he isn't the best in the world, not that he isn't world class

First one - I agree not the best in the world
Second - yes he is world class

NeilyBroon wrote:On the subject of exciting players in Scotland and potential Lions...

Denton... DENTON! Oh Jesus Christ DENTTTTTTOONNNNNN!

Appropriate seeing as he runs away like a dog too!

Neily, v good!

My mistake, best in the world. I agree he has world class potential.

True, and if he keeps on improving and injury free - hurrah

Chunky Norwich wrote:My mistake, best in the world. I agree he has world class potential.

There we go, wasn't that difficult - reckon everyone can have a nice relaxed weekend now

I think on the Sale thing, isn't Richie Vernon one of Richie Gray's best mates? And he probably clued Sale up on the Glasgow bid and how to appeal to Richie... Also being 3.5/4 hrs from Glasgow/Edinburgh doesn't hurt!