Richie Gray, best lock in the world?

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 16 Feb 2012, 2:55 pm

First topic message reminder :

You'll have to allow me to indulge in this one for a moment, after being involved in a cracking debate on another thread I got looking up some stats on Richie Gray. Now us Scots don't have a lot to be optimistic about at the moment, after another dismal 6N we do have some glimmers of light.

The biggest glimmer, litteraly has to be Richie Gray.

6ft 9 and 19st 12 he is a monster of a man. In the 6N thusfar he has these impressive statistics :

Meters Carried = 89
Clean breaks = 2
Defenders Beaten = 3
Tackles made = 15
Tackles Missed = 0
Lineouts Won = 11
Opposition Linouts spoiled / won = 4

All well and good, however take into account the other fantastic players in the 6N thusfar. Gray has made more clean breaks and carried the ball further than Jamie Roberts or George North and beaten more defenders than Roberts too.

His defensive record is phenomenal too winning or spoiling 4 opposition lineouts and makeing 15 tackles and missing none.

So, is he the best lock in the world? It has to be said even without my navy blue tinted glasses on I'm struggling to think of a better lock playing at the moment. Happy to hear from other poster as to their suggestions for the accolade of best lock in the world.

Oh and he's only 22.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 09 Jul 2012, 8:51 pm

Glas a du wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Glas a du wrote:Look, I know this in nothing compared to Ulster fans protecting Paddy Wallace, but come on now, relax a little
Is that what you say to your sheep?!

What's to 'relax' about? Anyone hot under the collar? Not as far as I can see.

You're protesting too much ASBO.

Radge, he is Lions standard, I don't doubt that. Whether he will play is a matter of selection priorities and tactics. I didn't understand and still don't his move to Sale. Leicester or Saracens yes, Quins maybe but Sale? He's hardly testing himself by moving there is he?

The best thing about him is that he allows you to pick a proper dog in the second row with him. If POC wasn't too old they'd make some pairing.

Oh dear, that's not good, do your clients get such poor service? Confusing asking you for further information with protesting, irrespective of the 'sheep' jokes! Nevermind, maybe you'll back your jibes up as Radge suggested or maybe you're just agreeing with us in a roundabout way - hey-ho

by Taffineastbourne Mon 09 Jul 2012, 9:06 pm

Would he get into the Welsh team?Maybe but probably not.So on balance not the best in NH.
Great player,mind..

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 09 Jul 2012, 9:08 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:Would he get into the Welsh team?Maybe but probably not.So on balance not the best in NH.
Great player,mind..

Taff, wondered when you'd show up, fantastic - as you say, might have to ride some pine for the Welsh A team to earn his stripes

Oh hang on a minute ... Headscratch

by Gibson Mon 09 Jul 2012, 9:10 pm

He is a great WC prospect. Had a great season, but lets not get carried away here Radge. He has a way to go before proving himself at the highest level. I mean, why has he gone to Sale FFS?

TBH, I dreamed of him coming to Leinster. Would have made him... and us, complete. The new Nathan Hines.

I think he could be a World Class player. Hes got the lot. But he needs high-level nurturing to make it there.

He may have to think again, about where he plays his club-rugby. JW got away with it at Newcastle, hes that good. But, its rare. I think Richie just made a huge career-decision mistake. Took a step down from Warriors imo.

Dont attack me Sale fans. Just my humble opinion. I hope he and ye, prove me wrong.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 09 Jul 2012, 9:18 pm

Gibson wrote:He is a great WC prospect. Had a great season, but lets not get carried away here Radge. He has a way to go before proving himself at the highest level. I mean, why has he gone to Sale FFS?

TBH, I dreamed of him coming to Leinster. Would have made him... and us, complete. The new Nathan Hines.

I think he could be a World Class player. Hes got the lot. But he needs high-level nurturing to make it there.

He may have to think again, about where he plays his club-rugby. JW got away with it at Newcastle, hes that good. But, its rare. I think Richie just made a huge career-decision mistake. Took a step down from Warriors imo.

Dont attack me Sale fans. Just my humble opinion. I hope he and ye, prove me wrong.

Gib, he's only just 22, years away from his pomp! He'll do the Sale thing, it's what suited him, a small step away from home, some familiar faces, then he'll head to a top team for a contract or two, and finish his career back at the Warriors - mark my words, you heard it hear first! Wink

by Gibson Mon 09 Jul 2012, 9:25 pm

As,
Remember us 2, watching him run thro the Irish defence, like a shaggy-haired whippet, at Lansdowne?

Ok Radge. He IS brilliant.

I really really wanted him at Leinster.

guttedaboutit.com

But you are right, As. Time is on his side. Just hope he has a good mentor.

by Glas a du Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:12 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Glas a du wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Glas a du wrote:Look, I know this in nothing compared to Ulster fans protecting Paddy Wallace, but come on now, relax a little
Is that what you say to your sheep?!

What's to 'relax' about? Anyone hot under the collar? Not as far as I can see.

You're protesting too much ASBO.

Radge, he is Lions standard, I don't doubt that. Whether he will play is a matter of selection priorities and tactics. I didn't understand and still don't his move to Sale. Leicester or Saracens yes, Quins maybe but Sale? He's hardly testing himself by moving there is he?

The best thing about him is that he allows you to pick a proper dog in the second row with him. If POC wasn't too old they'd make some pairing.

Oh dear, that's not good, do your clients get such poor service? Confusing asking you for further information with protesting, irrespective of the 'sheep' jokes! Nevermind, maybe you'll back your jibes up as Radge suggested or maybe you're just agreeing with us in a roundabout way - hey-ho

Wouldn't do to show my professional hand on here Mr Bo.

Anyhow, 1 irrelevant jibe, 2 rhetorical questions and still no heated debate. No, you're not Irish.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:14 pm

Gray, Denton and Rennie will all be world class in their positions. Mark my words. I hope they all start for the Lions.

by Gibson Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:16 pm

Ye bloody Welsh are all the same. Always up for a fight. On planes an tings. With ice-cubes an sheet.

by Glas a du Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:17 pm

By then they will have had their second seasons. Rennie is world class.

by Glas a du Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:18 pm

Typical Irishman, bringing ice to a soda fountain fight... Very Happy

by Gibson Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:20 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Gray, Denton and Rennie will all be world class in their positions. Mark my words. I hope they all start for the Lions.

Wooo Rory man. I heard that was already a done deal. Some would disagree.

Thread carefully young Luke.

BTW. I dont disagree.

by Gibson Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:21 pm

Glas a du wrote:Typical Irishman, bringing ice to a soda fountain fight...

And some Wisgi Glas. Dont forget the WhiskEy. zen

by Glas a du Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:23 pm

So that gives us

Healy, Best, Jones, Gray, Evans, SOB, Rennie, Denton

It's mobile, I'll give you that.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:28 pm

Glas a du wrote:So that gives us

Healy, Best, Jones, Gray, Evans, SOB, Rennie, Denton

It's mobile, I'll give you that.

I really like that pack to be honest.

by Glas a du Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:32 pm

It's a pack to put it to the Aussies down there. When you consider the bench as well:

Jenkins, Cronin, Lawes, Ryan Jones.

by Gibson Mon 09 Jul 2012, 11:55 pm

Glas a du wrote:So that gives us

Healy, ~~Best~~, Strauss, Jones, Gray, Evans, SOB, Rennie, Denton

It's mobile, I'll give you that.

Fixed that. Its a future, dynamic, option. It would work. Big time.

Just dont tell Stag roysh?

Or any Ulster-Saffermon either.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 10 Jul 2012, 6:07 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Glas a du wrote:So that gives us

Healy, Best, Jones, Gray, Evans, SOB, Rennie, Denton

It's mobile, I'll give you that.

I really like that pack to be honest.

Solid scrum, good lineout options, v mobile around the park, hitting rucks hard, pinching from Rennie, and multiple carrying threats (Healy, Best,Gray, DOB, Denton). And apparently the trick to negating Pocock is to make sure he is the first tackler so that he ant do his second player over the ball routine

by Driver Tue 10 Jul 2012, 6:12 am

Does no one see Paul O'connel starting the 1st test?

1.Healy
2.Best
3.Jones
4.Grey
5.POC
6.O'Brian
7.Warburton
8.Denton

by **Ozzy3213** Tue 10 Jul 2012, 6:18 am

I know this slightly digresses from the point of the OP, but as people seem to be discussing Lions packs, I have to say that after the last 6 Nations and summer tours, the only player who I reckon is nailed on is Rory Best.

Adam Jones would be nailed on but Dan Cole is really snapping at his heals for the jersey.

by Driver Tue 10 Jul 2012, 6:22 am

Dan Cole has been fantastic of late. Scrums like a beast and his work in the loose is second to non.

Most competition for a starting jersey in years.

by Glas a du Tue 10 Jul 2012, 7:58 am

Non is really an excellent scrummager isn't she.

Asbo, the secret to Pocock and McCaw is let them have the ball and put your shoulder into their kidneys when they turn around. Second and third man watch for offloads. If McCaw is so far off side in the backline the ref can't see him, he won't see you putting him on the floor when he's in your way either.

by **rodders** Tue 10 Jul 2012, 9:39 am

I think Gray is potentially the best for sure but hes still someway off for me. Very tall, great athlete, fantastic in the loose, great lineout jumper... BUT he isn't great at the grunt work in the tight yet, his scrummaging is fairly poor as are his body angles in contact (in part due to his height) and work at the ruck. He hasn't built up that aura that some of the top locks have yet but that will come as his reputation grows.

I'd still probably have Nathan Hines ahead of him and Paul O'Connell is still a few levels above him imo. Charteris is maybe better too, maybe AWJ as well based on his Ospreys form. Thats just in the home nations.

I'd say Gray will probably start the Lions tests alongside O'Connell but he is still a work in progress as a player, like Courtney Lawes. Unbelieveable potential and talent but still things to work on.

by Glas a du Tue 10 Jul 2012, 1:08 pm

Now now Rodders, where's your evidence? Expect crass stereotyping...

by **RDW** Tue 10 Jul 2012, 1:53 pm

rodders wrote: Charteris is maybe better too, maybe AWJ as well based on his Ospreys form. Thats just in the home nations.

Gray not hitting rucks is old news - a stereotype that has been attached to him that people sprout as "fact" without actually paying much attention to what actually happens in real life.

I watched all 3 games in the summer test and paid close attention to Gray at ruck time - he was most definitely hitting plenty rucks I can assure you that. There's no way his coaches wouldn't be at him at this level if he wasn't hitting rucks - it's the bread and butter of what a 2nd row needs to do.

Also scrummaging - how much can you really tell that he's a bad scrummager? Scrummaging is about a pack as a whole, Scotland's scrum not doing well could be down to the tighthead not doing well as much as anything. Glasgow's scrum did really well in the Rabbo against much vaunted opposition - was that Gray?

People really need to make sure the know the difference between "fact" and "stereotype"/"someone told me and I'm trying to be clever by repeating it."

by IanBru Tue 10 Jul 2012, 2:03 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:People really need to make sure the know the difference between "fact" and "stereotype"/"someone told me and I'm trying to be clever by repeating it."

+1

Is there any way this could pop up on everyone's screen when they enter the site? Much like those viagra adverts on the other sites I visit...

by Glas a du Tue 10 Jul 2012, 2:26 pm

Fair play, you rose above it.

by **rodders** Tue 10 Jul 2012, 2:44 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
rodders wrote: Charteris is maybe better too, maybe AWJ as well based on his Ospreys form. Thats just in the home nations.

Gray not hitting rucks is old news - a stereotype that has been attached to him that people sprout as "fact" without actually paying much attention to what actually happens in real life.

I watched all 3 games in the summer test and paid close attention to Gray at ruck time - he was most definitely hitting plenty rucks I can assure you that. There's no way his coaches wouldn't be at him at this level if he wasn't hitting rucks - it's the bread and butter of what a 2nd row needs to do.

Also scrummaging - how much can you really tell that he's a bad scrummager? Scrummaging is about a pack as a whole, Scotland's scrum not doing well could be down to the tighthead not doing well as much as anything. Glasgow's scrum did really well in the Rabbo against much vaunted opposition - was that Gray?

People really need to make sure the know the difference between "fact" and "stereotype"/"someone told me and I'm trying to be clever by repeating it."

I didn't see the summer tests so I will take you at your word but for me it was a big problem in the 6N. Denton was another culprit. Gray was very slow and upright getting to the rucks and I recall Scotland getting slowed down and turned over a lot against England in particular but also Ireland and France.

Scotland scrum has not been as solid since Gray came in and Hinds went out, despite having a good all round pack and excellent front row, which isn't surprising because hes a tall bloke. Scrummaging is team effort, so how do I know Gray is part of the problem? I don't.. but the scrum is not as good as its been and I believe he's not great there compared to others.

It's just an opinion man, just like yours, not fact. I think hes a brilliant talent but not the best lock around. Yet. Sorry.

by **RDW** Tue 10 Jul 2012, 2:47 pm

I also don't think anyone can claim to be the best lock around, never mind Richie Gray, but to claim that you'd rather Charteris or AWJ ahead of Gray I think is crazy, and indeed you'd struggle to find many people (apart from the Welsh no doubt) who would agree with you!

by Rory_Gallagher Tue 10 Jul 2012, 2:55 pm

Although I disagree with rodders about Gray, I think he is allowed to state his opinion like. I don't think he is just repeating what others have said to sound clever either (which has been suggested) I have never got that impression off rodders on here ever. Like he said he never saw the summer tests, and he is basing it on what he has seen in the past.

by **rodders** Tue 10 Jul 2012, 2:59 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:I also don't think anyone can claim to be the best lock around, never mind Richie Gray, but to claim that you'd rather Charteris or AWJ ahead of Gray I think is crazy, and indeed you'd struggle to find many people (apart from the Welsh no doubt) who would agree with you!

Eh?! The OP title is that Gray is the best lock in the world? Thats the whole debate? Headscratch

I do rate the guy highly, Lions test team highly, but I don't think he's either the worlds best or finished article.

Charteris and AWJ are thereabouts, all things considered, in my opinion and O'Connell is better than all 3. In couple of seasons Gray will likely be better than everyone, just not quite yet. Thats just my opinion.

by **RDW** Tue 10 Jul 2012, 3:06 pm

I was meaning I don't thin anyone can claim that any lock is the best in the world just now - there's no real standouts - , so I agree with you that Gray can't be claimed to be the best in the world, but disagree with you wholeheartedly about the Welsh locks being better than him!

by Rory_Gallagher Tue 10 Jul 2012, 3:07 pm

Although I really do think Gray would easily walk into each NH side. And at the very least put up a huge fight at NZ, Australia and SA.

by **rodders** Tue 10 Jul 2012, 3:10 pm

I didn't say they were better per se, just comparable. I'd say Gray is better but not conclusively so as all round locks.

My lions locks would be O'Connell(if fit) and Gray but theres a case for some others too. Athletically Gray is in a different league but theres all sorts of factors.

by Rory_Gallagher Tue 10 Jul 2012, 3:26 pm

Rodders - Hendy could challenge him come the Lions tour mind you. Wink

by tigertattie Tue 10 Jul 2012, 3:31 pm

I find Charteris to be a rather ineffective Lock

He is undoubtly good in the line out but in the scrum, loose and at rucks and mauls I don't think he does anywhere near the work as Gray!

Currenlty my pick of Locks for the lions would be POC and Gray. But POC needs a good showing inthe AI's and 6N's or he'll be at risk of loosing out.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 10 Jul 2012, 3:34 pm

Rodders, I very much respect your view and knowledge of rugby in general (I hope you know that), so I hope you won't see this as attacking your opinion in the slightest!

But some thoughts on your comparisons - POC hasn't been at the height of his powers since his injury (groin) and protracted rehab, and I think there must be some question mark over whether he will reach those again. From a Lions perspective, it would be great if he could, but I fear the worst. Charteris only managed 1 match in the 6Ns last season, and even chucking in the SH summer tour, he's not been able to refind his RWC form which is where I think he really made his mark. Oddly, the weaknesses that you attribute to Gray (scrummaging and hitting rucks), I would argue are more appropriate to Charteris. It will be interesting to see how he goes in France and in this year's AIs and 6Ns. AWJ managed 3 6Ns matches and played a part in the summer tour, but again I would argue that he's not displayed his best form since the Lions tour in '09, and in the Wales pecking order was initially eclipsed by Bradley Davies in the followign 6Ns, and then more recently by Ian Evans' return to form.

So back to Gray - the only 2nd row try scorer in this year's 6Ns, leading boiler-room passer on 18 (Bortolami 2nd on 15), 2nd most prolific runner on 40 behind Ian Evans' 45, top on metres run with 155 (2nd by some distance is Pascal Pape on 51), most defenders beaten on 6 (ahead of POC on 4), 1st for clean breaks on 3 (Jim Hamilton and Bradley Davies both on 2), most offloads with 5 (next is Evans on 2), no turnovers conceded, 2nd= on successful tackles with Yoann (sp? - embarrassing that I cannot spell the Breton version of my own name Rolling Eyes

) Maestri on 44, just behind Pape on 52, zero tackles missed, 2nd in lineouts won wih 19 (just shy of Evans' 21). Basically, on current evidence, i cannot see another lock in the NH that is close to him, particularly when you take into account that he's been playing for a weak Scotland team.

Anyhew, tis only my view, but it's one that I feel pretty confident about

by **RDW** Tue 10 Jul 2012, 3:40 pm

ASBO - you described your views far more eloquently than me!

by R!skysports Tue 10 Jul 2012, 4:01 pm

ASBO - as you know I like to disagree with you at any opportunity, but you make a good case

However I have to disagree with you - not on Gray, just you Shocked

by **rodders** Tue 10 Jul 2012, 4:06 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
But some thoughts on your comparisons - POC hasn't been at the height of his powers since his injury (groin) and protracted rehab, and I think there must be some question mark over whether he will reach those again.

Asbo

I respect your opinion too sir! Braveheart

... But re O'Connell I don't accept that view. O'Connell has played probably the best rugby of his career from April 2011 until his latest injury, his lineout work, workrate, fitness and all round play have been better than ever and that has been acknowledged from pundits and fans from around the World over the past year.

Now to say he's too injury prone, knocks on too much or didn't do great on previous tours is fair enough - or just that Gray is better- but I can't agree that over the past 12 months that he hasn't been at his very best. Will he get back to that after another injury? Maybe not but if he does he'd be in my Lions team...again just an opinion, thats a year away.

Its not like for like anyways... I'd argue Brad Thorn is the best in many ways still. Nathan Hinds, Muller, Bekker.... theres a lot of quality locks around.

Gray is a super player but I still don't quite agree with the OP. In some ways hes arguably the best but not others.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 10 Jul 2012, 4:07 pm

Riskysports wrote:ASBO - as you know I like to disagree with you at any opportunity, but you make a good case

However I have to disagree with you - not on Gray, just you

Richie Gray, best lock in the world? - Page 4 Smiley-finger004

by **rodders** Tue 10 Jul 2012, 4:15 pm

OK if Biltong and AWOP acknowledge Gray as the best then I will to...I can't say fairer than that....... Smile

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 10 Jul 2012, 4:19 pm

rodders wrote:OK if Biltong and AWOP acknowledge Gray as the best then I will to...I can't say fairer than that.......

Oh god, AWOP, do I have to?!?! Wink

by **rodders** Tue 10 Jul 2012, 4:22 pm

by **RDW** Tue 10 Jul 2012, 4:34 pm

I wonder how he'd look if he had a haircut? Headscratch

Have to say - judging by pictures put up on Twitter Denton has an absolutely mop heed just now too!

by R!skysports Tue 10 Jul 2012, 5:10 pm

Maybe that is the question, you has the best mop head in the world

by Glas a du Tue 10 Jul 2012, 5:35 pm

Asbo: figures-schmiggers. OK he carries a weak Scottish pack, Evans did what he did in competition with a strong players around him. Having said that I think they would make an excellent combination to take on the Aussies. POC is an amazing player, but just won't suit the Lions game plan which I think calls for an athletic back five. Lawes, Ryan and AWJ also play that type of game.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 10 Jul 2012, 6:37 pm

Based on current form alone, I'd look to Gray-Evans in the boiler-room, Glas

by Glas a du Tue 10 Jul 2012, 6:40 pm

Anything else is prejudice.

by Thomond Tue 10 Jul 2012, 6:44 pm

POC has constant injury issues when he played last he probably merited Lions inclusion who knows how good he will be when he gets back. Would like to think he is good enough, he will be considered at least he has proven he is top class, Gray hasn't yet. Very good but not WC yet.

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