Richie Gray, best lock in the world?

First topic message reminder :

You'll have to allow me to indulge in this one for a moment, after being involved in a cracking debate on another thread I got looking up some stats on Richie Gray. Now us Scots don't have a lot to be optimistic about at the moment, after another dismal 6N we do have some glimmers of light.

The biggest glimmer, litteraly has to be Richie Gray.

6ft 9 and 19st 12 he is a monster of a man. In the 6N thusfar he has these impressive statistics :

Meters Carried = 89
Clean breaks = 2
Defenders Beaten = 3
Tackles made = 15
Tackles Missed = 0
Lineouts Won = 11
Opposition Linouts spoiled / won = 4


All well and good, however take into account the other fantastic players in the 6N thusfar. Gray has made more clean breaks and carried the ball further than Jamie Roberts or George North and beaten more defenders than Roberts too.

His defensive record is phenomenal too winning or spoiling 4 opposition lineouts and makeing 15 tackles and missing none.

So, is he the best lock in the world? It has to be said even without my navy blue tinted glasses on I'm struggling to think of a better lock playing at the moment. Happy to hear from other poster as to their suggestions for the accolade of best lock in the world.

Oh and he's only 22.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think Richie is awesome and will be the best about for a long time.

When I watch him he lacks a few basic lock skills to be regarded as the best.

Rucking...it's not often I see Gray smashing into a ruck or bullying opposition, he may not quite fancy the dirty work but it's essential as a top lock (see Thorn, Bakkies).

His carrying in the loose is unparalleled but work in the tight needs work.

Also his scrummaging needs work, his side always seems to suffer yet is corrected when he's replaced.

Sgt_P, I would argue, as have others above, that those are the two aspects of his ame which he has improved the most in the last 12 months

I certainly wouldn't dispute that Aslong but are these areas of his game up to the standards of other world class locks? I don't think they are.

He is outstanding though and will only get better playing competitive rugby week in week out in the AP

Gray has only been around a season, to be world class you need to do it for more than one really. He could improve at the breakdown, he has gotten better, he is one of the few locks that is good at every facet of the game but he doesn't have any outstanding facet to his game yet really.


Will he and should he start for the Lions, yes. Is he world class yet, talk to me in another year or so.

Thomond wrote:Gray has only been around a season, to be world class you need to do it for more than one really. He could improve at the breakdown, he has gotten better, he is one of the few locks that is good at every facet of the game but he doesn't have any outstanding facet to his game yet really.


Will he and should he start for the Lions, yes. Is he world class yet, talk to me in another year or so.

Incorrect, T

After a slow start, this blast from the past has lasted a lot longer than the JJ Hanrahan thread resurrection.

Richie Gray has 22 caps or something - he's been around for more than just one season!

but he doesn't have any outstanding facet to his game yet really.

You not seen him with ball in hand and the amount of tackles he makes in a game??

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Thomond wrote:Gray has only been around a season, to be world class you need to do it for more than one really. He could improve at the breakdown, he has gotten better, he is one of the few locks that is good at every facet of the game but he doesn't have any outstanding facet to his game yet really.


Will he and should he start for the Lions, yes. Is he world class yet, talk to me in another year or so.

Incorrect, T

At the top level, Asbo hasn't he only really got serious game time since 2011 6n? Apologies if I'm wrong. RDW, I don't think he has been more outstanding than other locks in that facet of the game. I think we go World Class too early, Gray has had a very,very good year, I just don't want to throw around that term. Another year perfroming at the same level and he may be the best lcok in the world.

Thomond wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Thomond wrote:Gray has only been around a season, to be world class you need to do it for more than one really. He could improve at the breakdown, he has gotten better, he is one of the few locks that is good at every facet of the game but he doesn't have any outstanding facet to his game yet really.


Will he and should he start for the Lions, yes. Is he world class yet, talk to me in another year or so.

Incorrect, T

At the top level, Asbo hasn't he only really got serious game time since 2011 6n? Apologies if I'm wrong. RDW, I don't think he has been more outstanding than other locks in that facet of the game. I think we go World Class too early, Gray has had a very,very good year, I just don't want to throw around that term. Another year performing at the same level and he may be the best lock in the world.

Not really, played a full part in 2011 and 2012 6Ns, plus both summer tours

Exactly, 2011 6N. I think he is a very good guy not eorld class yet. Same way POC wasn't world class until 2005/06. When he had already been on a Lions tour.

Thomond- which locks in world rugby have been better ball carriers than him the past 2 years? Watch the ramaging display away to France in 2011, at home to England 2012 (he powered his way through the defence and made a 30m gallop into their half) and his try against Ireland where he charged through a gap and dummied Kearney - one of the best fullbacks in the NH just now.

Have any other locks done anything like that?

I agree that he's still young and another season will probable be needed to cement his reputation, but I also can't help but think if he was Irish or Welsh we wouldn't be having this argument.

Thomond wrote:Exactly, 2011 6N. I think he is a very good guy not eorld class yet. Same way POC wasn't world class until 2005/06. When he had already been on a Lions tour.

I just meant that he's been around for a couple of seasons now, not just the one

If he were Irish or Welsh he would have been World Class once he played well once! We tend to overhype lads. What does him being Scottish have to do with anything? Just another player really. A solid Lions tour, will cement his place. The move to Sale surprises me, yes they are in the HC but bigger clubs would have taken him, does he lack ambition?


Just as an aside I would say Ireland only have one World Class player in the current side and that's probably O'Connell. He is injured a lot too.

Thomond wrote:If he were Irish or Welsh he would have been World Class once he played well once! We tend to overhype lads. What does him being Scottish have to do with anything? Just another player really. A solid Lions tour, will cement his place. The move to Sale surprises me, yes they are in the HC but bigger clubs would have taken him, does he lack ambition?


Just as an aside I would say Ireland only have one World Class player in the current side and that's probably O'Connell. He is injured a lot too.

Not BOD? Jeebus that'll start a war on here!

I don't think he lacks ambition at all - his move to Sale was for reasons that he deemed worthy and important to him

BOD is still a very good player, he is no longer world class. Kearney and probably Bowe are the guys who are probably closest to getting it, maybe Ferris with a Lions tour.

I guess Gray moved to Sale to play competitive rugby every week which you just don't get in the Rabo.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I guess Gray moved to Sale to play competitive rugby every week which you just don't get in the Rabo.

Sgt_P -

It was a kind of tongue in cheek comment but it's also kind of true. He'll have to really perform week in week out and this can only be good for his development.

Thomond wrote:Just as an aside I would say Ireland only have one World Class player in the current side and that's probably O'Connell. He is injured a lot too.

Who ae you saying is World clas besides POC, rod Squad?

Depends on your definition as world class Thomond. But players that impress me for Ireland:

Kearney, SOB, Ferris (based on other years), Healy, Best, BOD (not so much the NZ tour) are standouts. I was impressed with Sexton's goalkicking in NZ but believe Kidney has failed to get the best out of him in a test jersey. Those players shouldn't receive sniggers when being described as world class.

Bod has declined, Kearney has had ups and downs, Healy has only shown for the last year, Best a year and a half or so. Ferris probably yeah, SOB close but not yet. Sexton, has the potential but hasn't shone for Irleand, partially due to our awful tactics.

You're tough to please! Maybe results going against Ireland have diminished your view of your players. I can see that. Better to think that way than to say you have world class depth across the field and on your day...

Not saying that all of their fans think that way but I find it refreshing to see the term world class not thrown around willy-nilly.

Thomond wrote:Who ae you saying is World clas besides POC, rod Squad?

Kearney, O'Driscoll, O'Connell, Ferris, O'Brien, Bowe - D'arcy was 5 seasons ago. Healy.

Rory Best and Donnacha Ryan are getting there if they can keep their form going.

If you play at the highest level of your sport and excel there over a sustained period then you are World class in my book. In rugby terms that is the RWC, Lions and vs the SH.. to a lesser extent the 6N.

Top 3 in world in position as WC?

Healy, Best, POC, Ferris, Bowe, Kearney?

Forgot Sexton, he's shown he is on isolated occaisions but needs to be more consistant before I'd call him world class but I rarely go into a game feeling the opposition have a better player at 10 and if he hits his stride he's our best player in any postion imo.

BOD hasn't played WC for a while. Healy is not there yet, he hasn't been consistent at international level, if he can keep up his sumemr performance though he is getting there.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Top 3 in world in position as WC?

Healy, Best, POC, Ferris, Bowe, Kearney?

Thats not my definition of World class to be honest pooly, top 3 in a position is too subjective and too fluid.

Thats my general rule of thumb Rodders although I know others differ. Some define WC as making a world XV, all opinions.

Thomond wrote:BOD hasn't played WC for a while. Healy is not there yet, he hasn't been consistent at international level, if he can keep up his sumemr performance though he is getting there.

BOD played WC against the best team in the world 3 weeks ago, hes done it 120 times before, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

O'Connell hasn't played since Febuary but you don't mind calling him World class?

I'm not sure what else Healy has to do, some of his displays have been phenomenal..against the very top teams and not just once or twice. He's been outscrummaged a couple of times but I have no doubt that he's a World class loosehead. None.

I said about 2 days ago POC was world class until his injury he has come back from injuires before and boucned back, so who knows how he does this time.


You underrate a fair few guys and overrate others Rodders. Healy is incredibly good but has been under massive pressure in the scrum a few times, agaisnt France he wasn't great. He is on his way there but needs a solid showing in the AIs to cement it.


Being world class is all about consistency in my mind a lot of the guys mentioned haven't performed well week in week out. Some of it is down to our poor tactics, etc but some of it is not.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Thats my general rule of thumb Rodders although I know others differ. Some define WC as making a world XV, all opinions.

Fair enough Pooly but I'd put like this... if a sprinter makes the olympic 100m final does he need to win a medal to be defined as world class?

I'd say if he or she is competitive at that level then they are world class, not great, but still world class because they are competing at the pinacle of their sport.

Is Afoa Powell not World class, Paula Radcliff?

If Sean O'Brien can win motm awards against Australia, stand out against the ABs 2 weeks running, win HEC player of the season etc. he's world class regardless of whether there's deemed to be 2 or 3 better players, subjectively, in the position he plays.

Comparing rugby with a sport that invovles individuals competing is a bit odd. I don't think the comparison works.

I'd second that rodders for Healy. I thought he was Ireland's best and most consistent player in the NZ series. Not a bad place to make a mark but by no means a necessity to be called world class.

Just for sh**s and giggles, I'd go Smith, Carter, Nonu (if he were playing but not SBW), Read, McCaw, Jane (think he's underrated) for NZ. Woodcock has suffered from injuries recently.

Showing promise and good performances :A Smith, Whitelock, O Franks, Cruden.

Trying to twist this back to the OP. Would Richie Gray be in the team? Yes. I'd like to see him alongside Whitelock. Would he be the best lock in the squad. Too early to say. He shows great potential. (Romano impressed in his first display as well. Now he needs to show that against Australia, SA and Argentina.)

Thomond wrote:You underrate a fair few guys and overrate others Rodders.

I rate who I rate to the degrees that I rate them based on what I see Thomond.

It's just an opinion man and its not black and white but a spectrum that people can move up and down.

Criteria for me is as above, have they delivered 80 minute performances against the best teams and players? have they done it more than once? Have they performed under pressure? Are they consistant? Are they complete players or do they have areas of their games that aren't up to scratch?

Some players tick the boxes and some don't and some don't tick enough of them.

Thomond wrote:Comparing rugby with a sport that invovles individuals competing is a bit odd. I don't think the comparison works.

It's not odd at all Thomond. In every sport there's a gold standard, you either meet that standard or you don't.

Its harder to rate individuals in a team sport but sure thats what we are all trying to do.

I like to use the opinions of other nations/teams we play against as a reference to who is playing well. Healy and O'Brien especially received a ton of praise down in NZ. I think SOB has actually had a fantastic year developing as a world class 7 and yet he has been the scapegoat for anything that went wrong for Ireland. Surely the myth that his breakdown work isn't up to scratch is well and truly dead.

rodders wrote:

Thomond wrote:Comparing rugby with a sport that invovles individuals competing is a bit odd. I don't think the comparison works.

It's not odd at all Thomond. In every sport there's a gold standard, you either meet that standard or you don't.

Its harder to rate individuals in a team sport but sure thats what we are all trying to do.

That explains why some of our players aren't as good as they could be rodders. In a team sport, an individual will look better or worse depending on the rest of the team. SBW would look rubbish if he didn't play for such a good attacking team with support players all over the show. His offloads would just be useless. It all depends on the team.

I'd consider it odd, because they are completely different things but each to their own . In a team sport one person can become the focal point of the team and look outstanding (Parisse) but they often stand out due to the great work of others (Alessandro Zanni). I think we jump the gun on World Class players, I need to see a guy do it twice or three times before agaisnt some of the best teams before he is World Class.


I agree with some of your thoughts but not all, you've laid your cards out on the table in a very cohesive way though so I can't complain. Massive respect for you though and you presented the arguement clearly. (you're getting way too much praise on hear lately though!)

"SBW would look rubbish if he didn't play for such a good attacking team with support players all over the show"

I'm not quite sure he'd be rubbish lol

Thats were you have to use your judgement Rory. Its very subjective, all you can do is state your opinion and defend the reasons.

Thomond wrote:I'd consider it odd, because they are completely different things but each to their own . In a team sport one person can become the focal point of the team and look outstanding (Parisse) but they often stand out due to the great work of others (Alessandro Zanni). I think we jump the gun on World Class players, I need to see a guy do it twice or three times before agaisnt some of the best teams before he is World Class.


I agree with some of your thoughts but not all, you've laid your cards out on the table in a very cohesive way though so I can't complain. Massive respect for you though and you presented the arguement clearly. (you're getting way too much praise on hear lately though!)

No Thom I agree they need to do it more than once or twice but consistantly - probably 2 seasons, but then I'd say Christian Cullen was world class from the minute he stood on the pitch. Its not an exact science...

Oh and thank you sir, the feeling's mutual .... thats three times I've been praised in a thousand plus posts....does that make me world class?...... ....

You're out of line again rodders. And you Thomond. You're talking out of your again (that's the closest I could get to a behind!).

Just restoring the balance there guys.

No it means you're victim of the whole Irish, he has played 10 good minutes, he is the next feicing BOD mentality. Or you're just Paddy Wallace and people are only seeing the light when you're winding down....

Thats why I hesitate on Rory Best, Jonny Sexton and Donnacha Ryan despite some incredible perfromances... they just haven't done it quite enough .. yet.

The others I'm happy enough with, yes. World class those chaps.

Sorry Kia, regarding the Kiwi guys...we'll be here all day if we start naming the world class kiwis!

I would say that McCaw is the greatest. Ever. Fact. That display in the 3rd test was out of this world, monstrous, epic.... particuraly so because he's as slow as a carthorse....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"SBW would look rubbish if he didn't play for such a good attacking team with support players all over the show"

I'm not quite sure he'd be rubbish lol

Well yeah that is an exaggeration, he would still break the line, but his trademark really is his offloading. That is very dependant on good support play. A team that loves to run the ball. NZ is perfect for him.

He looks outstanding for Chiefs & AB's agreed, also looked pretty damn good for Toulon and they have a pretty dire attacking game.

Kia,
I think 60-0 says more than these Irish lads could say.

Ireland has NO World Class players. None. Not yet anyway. Not since BOD at his peak. Healy, O'Brien, Kearney & Sexton may make it, but they have a way to go yet, to prove it on the highest stage. Healy, due to a very young age for a Prop, is the closest we have to potential and true WC. IMHO. All the rest are being over-hyped here.

Rory I'd bet a fiver that SBW would look good playing for Rainey old boys..... ...

rodders wrote:Thats why I hesitate on Rory Best, Jonny Sexton and Donnacha Ryan despite some incredible perfromances... they just haven't done it quite enough .. yet.

The others I'm happy enough with, yes. World class those chaps.

Sorry Kia, regarding the Kiwi guys...we'll be here all day if we start naming the world class kiwis!

I would say that McCaw is the greatest. Ever. Fact. That display in the 3rd test was out of this world, monstrous, epic.... particuraly so because he's as slow as a carthorse....

He was no David Wallace mate.

Gibson wrote:Kia,
I think 60-0 says more than these Irish lads could say.

Ireland has NO World Class players. None. Not yet anyway. Not since BOD at his peak. Healy, O'Brien, Kearney & Sexton may make it, but they have a way to go yet, to prove it on the highest stage. Healy, due to a very young age for a Prop, is the closest we have to potential and true WC. IMHO. All the rest are being over-hyped here.

In that case Gibson, neither is Parisse. Or anyone who has a bad game.

There were a few guys in the pack who had a great tour, and even the NZ media seemed to rate them highly.

Not one of our backs played well.