Groves v froch II

First topic message reminder :

Was fortunate to meet tony bellew tonight I asked him what he thought about the fight and he said there was nothing wrong with the refs decision and that another 10 secs would have seen a ko. He hunted also that the second fight is pretty much signed for next June/ July as he's fighting on the undercard happy days

Steffan wrote:I dont care what those judges or referees say...this is the man who won that fight

Yep, the way he was head butting Froches fists in rnd 9 was a classic way to win a fight.... Froch was lucky when the reff stopped Groves from braking froches hands

You mean where Froch landed all of two clean shots during his 7 punch combination, even at the end Groves was evading more punches than he was being hit with.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You mean where Froch landed all of two clean shots during his 7 punch combination, even at the end Groves was evading more punches than he was being hit with.

Give up, HH, we even gave Tunes a super slow-mo clip of said combo to show how few actually landed and he couldn't accept it.

'Tis a dead horse well and truly flogged!!

Just rewatched fight in full, here:

Spoiler:

Really highlights the gross absurdity of the stoppage. Froch nut-huggers are simply embarrassing themselves defending this.

Just scored it 6-2 Groves, with a 10-8 in the first obvs, which means if GG had got the 8-10 he deserved from the 9th then Froch would've needed all three remaining rounds to salvage a draw.

How 1 judge only had GG by 1 (WITH a 10-8) is an absolute disgrace.

Just watched the 9th round again & I'll hold my hands up & admit that GG didn't get Froch buzzed in that round, but he was still landing cleanly & it was a pretty even exchange up to the point where Froch lands a big right hand. Also the 8th was close so there certainly wasn't a "massive" shift in power as previously stated.
Got the impression at the time, and haven't changed my mind since that the ref was just waiting for a chance to jump in, GG still had his hands up defending himself & wasn't taking clean shots that were knocking his head back.
I also scored it 6-2 rounds in Groves' favour with 10-8 in 1st - I thought I was being generous giving Carl two rounds.
I would state that going into this I was [still am] a massive Froch fan, however I did find his "international superstar" rather tiresome, but equally found Groves wind-up act also annoying - yes I know they were trying to sell the fight to PPV but Froch-Kessler II proved you don't necessarily need to do that.
If Froch doesn't give Groves a rematch he will go down in my estimation, regardless of where he is in his career & how many fights he believes he has left.

Steffan wrote:I dont care what those judges or referees say...this is the man who won that fight

no. he didn't.

tunes666 wrote:

owen10ozzy wrote:Tunes - Given you have stated that the fact Groves was outboxing him, yet it made no difference because it was a 12 Round fight which you don't win by beating someone for 6/7 rounds...I would be interested to know how you scored the contest up until the point of the stoppage.

I had Groves up 73 - 78, which also includes the knock down... After the 9th it would have been 82 - 86 but had the reff not been there I think even the biggest of Grove fans would have to admit Groves would have at least been knocked down which would have been 83 - 86 with three rounds left to go, and Froch on top, it would not have been out of the question to have given Froch another round up till that point as well.

It would have been a tall order for Froch but doable looking at how the fight was panning out and how Groves power was no longer effecting Froch.

But my point is also that outboxing is one thing but you can also win by getting people out of there. Froch has never been a great "boxer" as such, he has always been about the trenches, durable sustainable power and being awkward with a long reach and a great chin, this is what you have to beat when you fight him...  Ward did the same, and in the last couple rounds was also having to run from Froch.

Im not taking anything away from Groves I just think Froch has been unfairly put down, who was doing what he needed to do to win the fight when it was the reff who stopped him hitting Groves, not him, and certainly not Groves.

Groves' jab was actually putting Froch onto his heels, watch it again, hoenstly he was badly hurt in the 7th aswell at around 45 seconds left to go he took a huge right which made his legs turn to lead.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

tunes666 wrote:

owen10ozzy wrote:Tunes - Given you have stated that the fact Groves was outboxing him, yet it made no difference because it was a 12 Round fight which you don't win by beating someone for 6/7 rounds...I would be interested to know how you scored the contest up until the point of the stoppage.

I had Groves up 73 - 78, which also includes the knock down... After the 9th it would have been 82 - 86 but had the reff not been there I think even the biggest of Grove fans would have to admit Groves would have at least been knocked down which would have been 83 - 86 with three rounds left to go, and Froch on top, it would not have been out of the question to have given Froch another round up till that point as well.

It would have been a tall order for Froch but doable looking at how the fight was panning out and how Groves power was no longer effecting Froch.

But my point is also that outboxing is one thing but you can also win by getting people out of there. Froch has never been a great "boxer" as such, he has always been about the trenches, durable sustainable power and being awkward with a long reach and a great chin, this is what you have to beat when you fight him...  Ward did the same, and in the last couple rounds was also having to run from Froch.

Im not taking anything away from Groves I just think Froch has been unfairly put down, who was doing what he needed to do to win the fight when it was the reff who stopped him hitting Groves, not him, and certainly not Groves.

Groves' jab was actually putting Froch onto his heels, watch it again, hoenstly he was badly hurt in the 7th aswell at around 45 seconds left to go he took a huge right which made his legs turn to lead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xvFXxe-c14

just watched it, 29:38 Groves got him with a great shot, he then smothered his own attack and both fighters held while the reff split them and restarted quickly, Froch then took the center of the ring while Groves kept his distance throwing jabs that did not bother Froch.. then at 30:02 he got Froch with another left then a good right which did not hurt Froch who was still pushed on the front foot and was in no trouble at all, You cant compare this to how Groves was in rnd 9 who was desperate to hold on..

In fact the end of the 7th is where for me you could see Groves getting tired and Froch growing in confidence and able to soak up a few of Groves punches... Right before the end Groves again catches him with a good hook in an exchange, but its Groves who moves back to the ropes and Froch coming forward.

I think you're watching a completely different fight to the rest of us, Froch was getting hurt throughout the fight. The fact he wasn't marauding forward and frequently holding highlights he was feeling Groves power.

I have posted the vid mate, go ahead and show me.. We can all watch the fight.

By the way, getting hurt means you get hit and you show signs that it hurt you, Yes Froch was getting hurt for much of the fight, but apart from the knock down he was never in trouble. Groves WAS in trouble in rnd 9 for about 30 seconds.

But like I say rather than just tell me, Im happy for you to show me as I have defiantly missed it...

Froch was taking control from the end of the 7th and Groves punches were not looking to have a big effect on Froch from then on... in fact in the 6th Groves was showing signs of getting hurt...

While Froch was loosing rounds you could still see the tide of the fight change where Groves was on the back foot more..

Tunes there are millions of boxing fans who have disagreed with you, the only time Froch looked remotely in control was just before the stoppage, and even then he didn't land half of his punches clean.

Froch has come out of this fight looking a very arrogant man, borderline delusional in fact and even the most hardened Froch fan has seen this.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You mean where Froch landed all of two clean shots during his 7 punch combination, even at the end Groves was evading more punches than he was being hit with.

thats more bias untruths ha landed about 5 clean shots while he was on the ropes..

I suggest you go back and watch the slow motion video posted a few weeks back as it showed how many landed, it was certainly less than 5.

Before you call me biased as well, I'm just pointing out what I saw on the video, don't let it cloud your judgement though.

in the ninth round Listen to the commentators who are there watching the match and the cowed...

Commentator: "And then lands a right hand of his own!!, and Groves is wobbled, groves is in big trouble now and Froch senses it, and froch is going for the finish, and Groves's legs have gone!!, and Groves hanging on here. just holding and spoiling trying to bide some time, and Froch sense blood here!"

Jim Watt: - I think Froch needs to finish it here!

Commentator: "He really does, .... Groves in trouble! He's taken another one, and another, AND HOWARD FOSTER HAS STOPPED IT "

That was the commentary up to the stoppage from the point he was hurt..

So I think there were others who saw the same fight as me...

Yeah because Nick Halling is someone who knows is boxing.

hampo171 wrote:I suggest you go back and watch the slow motion video posted a few weeks back as it showed how many landed, it was certainly less than 5.

Before you call me biased as well, I'm  just pointing out what I saw on the video, don't let it cloud your judgement though.

I did, and done a count on punches thrown and landed... Of course there was the big right that had Groves hurt to start with which the video posted obviously did not show.

hampo171 wrote:Yeah because Nick Halling is someone who knows is boxing.

Actually the commentators where very pro Groves through the whole fight.... But they had no other choice to say where they said as he was hurt and getting beaten up... They also were quick to address that he was stopped early, so they did know what they were talking about..

Commentator: "Wow, that is going to be controversial.. Groves is disgusted.. Groves is furious .. and theirs gona be come controversy here.. Froch had him in trouble no question about that, But he was so far ahead George Groves.. Was he in so much trouble that he required a stoppage? that is the question thats going to be asked over and over and over again.. "

Jim Watt:" I think the Reff could have let it go on a little bit longer to see if Groves could have taken a count, could have grabbed hold of Froch.. "

I agree with the commentators. during the time Froch was trying to stop Groves, through to after where they express they ended it a little soon.

IMO if they let it go on, Froch would have won and got more credit for his victory.

Nick Halling gets very excited anytime a punch lands, he is widely known as an awful commentator. Had Jim Watt said it was a perfect stoppage I'm sure he would have agreed.

Sorry Tunes but you are just plain wrong and I don't know where you get this idea that there are visible signs of being. The majority of the time that isn't the case, I have no interest pinpointing specific moments in the fight for you weasel out of it with another load of nonsense.

To be honest tunes is a dopey Kumquat and if you are in any doubt you are one as well. Check out his fantastic something fishy about peterson test threaded

To be fair, I think the person who came off worst from the stoppage is Froch.

I'm 90% certain he would have finished Groves off if the referee had done his job properly - but he didn't, and Froch's deserved win is shrouded in a cloud, whilst Groves is seen as the moral winner.

An injustice? Of course. But more for Froch, than for Groves.

From a neutral Englishman.

God almighty this is still rumbling?

The ref robbed Froch of the chance to drop Groves or batter him in to an unconscious being whilst still on his feet. Thus we'd all then be savouring what a great comeback it was.

The ref robbed Groves of the chance to see if he could hang in there for a bit longer and make it through the storm.

Fact is the ref did neither of the the above. But for me the fight had pretty much turned full circle and Froch was just walking through what Groves had to offer. Lest we not forget the scorecards were close, and I would politely ask that you rematch the fight minus Nupmti Watts had to say whilst ignoring the shots Froch was landing. There were a couple of close rounds in there, if you give Froch one of those then the fight becomes 77-74 with 4 rounds to go.

It wouldn't be the first time a champ has had to turn it on big time in the last quarter of a fight. A lot of people here seem to discredit his victory because of the early stoppage - he would've been all square on 2 cards and the tide and momentum was massively with Froch. He isn't the same animal as Anderson - he's about ten levels above.. So the arguement of Groves having great powers of recovery when the only record we have of this is against a Brit level fighter are unwarranted.

Groves would get smacked silly in a rematch. And I would be prepared to put a decent wager on it as well.

Never read so much rubbish my entire life. Groves would get smacked silly? The fight had turned full circle? If you had that fight even close on a scorecard then you are clearly a Froch fan, and a completely biased one at that.

I also haven't seen anybody say Groves has got great powers of recovery, what people are saying is we don't know if Groves could see out the crisis. I have also seen Foster let fights go on with fighters in a lot worse trouble than Groves was, sadly some people don't want to believe he was favouring the home fighter throughout the fight, despite their being numerous occasions that are clear to see.

Well there are so many examples of fighters going completely against type in certain fights we simply do not know what would have happened.

Lets look at Amir Khan gets splattered by Prescott and then a few fights later faces the big punching Maidana, he landed a huge right hand in their 9th round. That fight is all over surely, the glass jawed Khan can't survive against a brilliant finisher oh but he unexpectedly saw it to the bell and finished the fight strongly.

Was a great fight as well hey Hammer.

Couldn't believe he even stood up after that shot in the 10th!!

Fight could and probably should have ended in the first, Maidana showed huge heart getting up from that body shot. If Khan concentrated more on body punching he'd be twice the fighter, he's one of the best at it when he chooses to.

if anyone else is stuck on the night shift - you could do worse than watch the fights on the thread by chris. I've watched the 4 of em i hadn't seen before and all of them have been brilliant.

Good shout out Shah - Which ones you watched? I have been on the healthy eating trail in the build up to xmas; that has now officially come to the end and I'm now sat with a beer in hand and pringles & quality streets next to me!

Watched Ruelas, Carbajal, Lopez and gomez and also watched the first fight of Gatti vs Ivan Robinson - now that was a great fight. Also watched Duran vs Barkley, against Pazienza 1 and against Camacho 1. Will do my rounds and enjoy a smoke then watch Ike vs Tua - havent seen it in 6 months!

hampo171 wrote:Never read so much rubbish my entire life. Groves would get smacked silly? The fight had turned full circle? If you had that fight even close on a scorecard then you are clearly a Froch fan, and a completely biased one at that.

I also haven't seen anybody say Groves has got great powers of recovery, what people are saying is we don't know if Groves could see out the crisis. I have also seen Foster let fights go on with fighters in a lot worse trouble than Groves was, sadly some people don't want to believe he was favouring the home fighter throughout the fight, despite their being numerous occasions that are clear to see.

So I guess the 2 judges were also Froch fans? And let me put it this way, if at the time of Froch landing that big left hand I offered you even money odds on Froch to win the fight and a free £1000 to put on either him or Groves at that exact moment.. Who would you have chosen?

And yes, smacked silly. I have an opinion and if you don't like that then frankly I couldn't give two Poopie. Just because you have the word 'admin' besides your comment it doesn't make you some sort of god.

Chavez vs Taylor. The latter outfoxed the former and was miles ahead on the scorecards. The second fight he got his arse kicked. History is littered with numerous other examples. I believe Froch wouldn't be so switched off if there were a second time and we'd see something akin to the Bute fight in my eyes.

If you don't like it then just deal with it yeah?!

Some of these comments are just laughable. All you need to do is watch Groves interview in the sky studio after the fight, he pretty much explains exactly what happened.

I'm a Froch fan and I picked him to win big, he got battered from pillar to post for the majority of the fight and then had a little bit of success and the ref jumped in as soon as he could. Froch has never taken punishment like that, I would fear for his health in a rematch. I don't think Groves was really in that much trouble to be honest, its a world title fight. Froch was hurt far far far worse, the 6th round was sickening.

Sounds like some people on here are in denial about the fight like Froch is. Videos don't lie.

Gatti vs Robinson is absolutely enthralling! Loved it. How that man ended up having the career he had I will never know, no one should have 2 tear up's never mind the half a dozen he had.

Think I will go with Vazquez vs Marquez next, never gets old. Currently watching Gomez v Pintor...slightly ashamed to say I have never seen it before!!   Though I suppose that's why I rate Chris so highly...always learning new things/fights from him.

Lower weight classes have always thrown up absolutely brutal wars, you may have seen it already but if you haven't go watch Omar Figueroa vs Nihito Arakawa from this year. Pure battle of wills and heart!

Izzi wrote:

hampo171 wrote:Never read so much rubbish my entire life. Groves would get smacked silly? The fight had turned full circle? If you had that fight even close on a scorecard then you are clearly a Froch fan, and a completely biased one at that.

I also haven't seen anybody say Groves has got great powers of recovery, what people are saying is we don't know if Groves could see out the crisis. I have also seen Foster let fights go on with fighters in a lot worse trouble than Groves was, sadly some people don't want to believe he was favouring the home fighter throughout the fight, despite their being numerous occasions that are clear to see.

So I guess the 2 judges were also Froch fans? And let me put it this way, if at the time of Froch landing that big left hand I offered you even money odds on Froch to win the fight and a free £1000 to put on either him or Groves at that exact moment.. Who would you have chosen?

And yes, smacked silly. I have an opinion and if you don't like that then frankly I couldn't give two Poopie. Just because you have the word 'admin' besides your comment it doesn't make you some sort of god.

Chavez vs Taylor. The latter outfoxed the former and was miles ahead on the scorecards. The second fight he got his arse kicked. History is littered with numerous other examples. I believe Froch wouldn't be so switched off if there were a second time and we'd see something akin to the Bute fight in my eyes.

If you don't like it then just deal with it yeah?!

Fans or on his payroll most definitely yes. How anyone could have that contest by their margins is an absolute joke and neither should be sat anywhere near a ring in the future let alone be sat near one judging. Exactly how did you have the fight scored by the end of the 8th?!

The fight hadn't turned full circle, to have done so it would have required Froch to be landing his jab and right hand at will, like Groves the previous 8 rounds. Yes Froch was having more success and was etching his way back into the contest slightly...but by no means had he turned the fight around up until that very point.

You actually sound like Froch prior to this fight; claiming he would knock Groves out cold and would show he didn't belong at this level...we all saw how that turned out.

Whilst no one can disagree that Froch wouldn't have possibly finished Groves off...we also can't say that Groves wouldn't have recovered and caught him with a counter and knocked Carl back down. Reason being no one can predict the future...only provide hear say as to what may have happened.

I do wonder how you reach the conclusion that he would smack Groves silly in a rematch though? Even if Carl comes in switched on and up for the 2nd fight, he would still have to do a number of things different to ensure he wasn't outboxed again.

Can you point out where I acted like "some sort of god" please?

Owen can we have. 606v2 god award this year?

I hear by declare you Hampo 

606v2 "Boxing God"



We demand a speech.

Howard Foster should have waved the fight off once Froch and Groves touched gloves at the beginning. He would have saved Groves from even more punishment than waiting to stop it in the 9th. We all know Froch was going to win anyway. 2 of the judges certainly did anyway.

Duty281 wrote:To be fair, I think the person who came off worst from the stoppage is Froch.

I'm 90% certain he would have finished Groves off if the referee had done his job properly - but he didn't, and Froch's deserved win is shrouded in a cloud, whilst Groves is seen as the moral winner.

An injustice? Of course. But more for Froch, than for Groves.

From a neutral Englishman.

Im with you mate, I think Groves has come out great in all this, in a great position considering he lost...

Yep maybe next time Froch will get the rub of the green instead. Dominate the fight before getting stopped the first time he gets hit with a good shot and have a couple of judges hellbent on scoring the fight to his opponent.

BoxingFan88 wrote:Some of these comments are just laughable. All you need to do is watch Groves interview in the sky studio after the fight, he pretty much explains exactly what happened.

Right, he is going to stand there and say, Froch had me in big trouble and I think he was going to stop me, But I just felt I should have been given a few moments more to try and weather the storm, which is why Im gutted....

of course he is going to say it was unfair and he was fine.. he wants another crack at the belts and big pay day.

To be fair people keep going on about Froch after the fight and his comments, but not that after taking the shots he was and coming back to smash Groves around in the 9th showing a Heart of a Lion, and booed off? ...

And I will also point out that not once did Groves give Froch credit for that ballsy come back into the fight, How can you not? he was nearly KOed in rnd 1 which most fighters would not have even got back up... he then went on to be out boxed most of the rounds and repeatedly hurt through the fight, yet still managed to grind Groves down and force a stoppage, all be it an early one...
Im yet to hear Groves give Froch any credit while he has demanded a rematch...

tunes666 wrote:I have posted the vid mate, go ahead and show me.. We can all watch the fight.

By the way, getting hurt means you get hit and you show signs that it hurt you, Yes Froch was getting hurt for much of the fight, but apart from the knock down he was never in trouble. Groves WAS in trouble in rnd 9 for about 30 seconds.

But like I say rather than just tell me, Im happy for you to show me as I have defiantly missed it...

Froch was taking control from the end of the 7th and Groves punches were not looking to have a big effect on Froch from then on... in fact in the 6th Groves was showing signs of getting hurt...

While Froch was loosing rounds you could still see the tide of the fight change where Groves was on the back foot more..

V b
Tunes ,No-one would argue that you are definitely defiant on this one.

catchweight wrote:Yep maybe next time Froch will get the rub of the green instead. Dominate the fight before getting stopped the first time he gets hit with a good shot and have a couple of judges hellbent on scoring the fight to his opponent.

Yes, it was only one shot that lead to the stoppage... Sorry I forgot to put my Groves fan boy glasses on.

Well you certainly need a pair of glasses

Big Froch and at the time was delighted he got the win as my immediate comments will show. However having rewatched the fight with my father we both agreed Groves was putting on a master lass before being shamefully stopped. Call me a Groves fanboy all you want but everyone on this site will verify what a huge fan of a Froch I am.

Gents, just a bit of info some of you you may find invaluable (or completely baffling)

If Groves is winning the fight handily and then the fight "turns full circle"....Groves is still winning the fight handily!!!!

If there's a "u-turn" or a "180 degree turn".....THEN (and only then) is Froch the winning the fight.

Anyway, Froch is my clear winner for "Bell of the Year" beating Broner by some considerable distance.

That takes some doing!

And yet with a late surge, Froch is a clear winner

Izzi wrote:
Groves would get smacked silly in a rematch. And I would be prepared to put a decent wager on it as well.

I try to respect everyone's opinion mate, but the idea a slow on the slide fighter who will probably be 38 by the time of a rematch and coming off the worst brutal beating of his career will be better in a rematch than a 25-26 year old who boxed his ears off, took limited punishment and will be full of confidence well aware that he has the beating of Froch is laughable. That was a battering that could effect a young man left alone a bloke in his late 30's. Froch will never even be as good as he was for the Groves fight again and let be honest he was terrible enough that night.

I'm in full agreement with Hogey on this one. There's no way Froch can adapt enough to nullify Groves who will undoubtedly be even more motivated and confident in a rematch.

Froch walks forward he walks onto a right hand and Groves won't let him off the hook. Froch tries to fight on the back foot, Groves out speeds and counters him to within an inch of his life

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Big Froch and at the time was delighted he got the win as my immediate comments will show. However having rewatched the fight with my father we both agreed Groves was putting on a master lass before being shamefully stopped. Call me a Groves fanboy all you want but everyone on this site will verify what a huge fan of a Froch I am.

Master class? not really, he was out boxing Froch which was surprising allot of people, he was landing powerful solid shots which had Froch thinking twice about coming forward, and in the first round done to Froch what no one has done and knock him down and badly hurt him.

Froch was looking to walk him down and bully him, But Groves power was much more to deal with than Froch seemed to give him credit for, and while they Traded Groves was quicker to the punch.

So Yes Groves was looking good and outboxing Froch, a master class is going a little far IMO.

The first time Froch hit him with a big shot he was hurt and holding on for dear life... and while stopped early was clearly in need of the bell to come as soon as possible.

I have allways said it about Groves and while he deserves credit for fighting how he did and proving he can more than hold his own on the big stage, I think the way he fights, the power he uses and the intensity of his defense uses up allot of energy and he can not carry it through a whole fight when made to work.