Dean Ryan Wants Lancaster To Abandon Ambition to Play Wide

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 18 Nov 2013, 12:42 pm

From The Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/nov/17/england-wide-boys-limitations-new-zealand

Stuart Lancaster has talked about wanting this England side to play with pace and width, but I would say there is no chance of a successful World Cup in 2015 if they keep trying to do that. Holding their hands up and admitting it may help this team move forward. England playing to their strengths may not give the Twickenham crowd the same kind of thrill as watching Charles Piutau and Kieran Read off‑loading at pace, but Dan Cole destroying Tony Woodcock at the scrum has a beauty all of its own...

...For all that England have a world-class forward pack, resilience and defensive structure they remain vulnerable to those moments of brilliance because the backs do not make the most of the dominance laid down by the forwards. So it may be time for Lancaster to say: "This is what we are and we should try to maximise that." South Africa have arrived at that conclusion: they kick an awful lot and are heavily reliant on their big forwards and they have become fed up with pretending to be anything else.

I think potentially England need to do that because there are areas where they are excellent. They are not very good at the other game, of trying to find space and width, because the precision in the back line is poor and they just end up in a mundane, phase game that looks so predictable against a decent defence. I don't think there will have been a moment when England worked the ball wide that caused the All Blacks coaches' hearts to have skipped a beat, whereas from the scrum and driven lineouts they will have frequently.

The search for an all-court game is not working but England have a world-class pack and should play to its strengths.

I don't think the comparison with South Africa really works because Habana, Le Roux and JP Pietersen are far more lethal than anything England has fielded. Watching Le Roux's wonderful kick to the corner for Pietersen to score against Scotland, I was reminded of Ashton's failed attempt, albeit under far more pressure, to do something similar.

I do think the all-singing, all-dancing game South Africa played against New Zealand in the final round of the Rugby Championship was a bit of an outlier. The Boks needed a bonus point so they couldn't just settle for trying to get a win. I'm sure Meyer will have noticed that his team still lost, so I wouldn't envisage similar tactics against the All Blacks at a World Cup.

Nevertheless, South Africa pose real threats out wide and that keeps opposition teams on their toes. Woodward's England was the same. At their peak, they scored ries for fun against all teams, so no-one could afford to assume the likes of Robinson and Cohen were just going to take the tackle or kick.

As it stands, I don't think Lancaster can afford to take Ryan's advice because we don't even know our best backline if we were to settle for a more conservative approach.

by Barney McGrew did it Mon 18 Nov 2013, 12:46 pm

He's right. But I see little evidence that SL wants to use our backs as an attacking force. So that's sorted then.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Nov 2013, 12:46 pm

We didn't worry NZ out wide as Tomkins didn't have a very good game at all and we were playing 2 wingers not in great form. Find an attacking OC (Tuilagi when he returns) and players like Wade and Yarde a suddenly you would cause teams a lot of problems. Strange comments about SA as they are developing their backs very well. Play to your strengths yes as England did a decade ago but have quality, or aim to have it, all over the pitch.

by Breadvan Mon 18 Nov 2013, 12:47 pm

Eng have the potential to be lethal out wide with the likes of Yarde and Wade as shown in the summers tour to Argentina. Shame we've seen little of them this autumn..

by offload Mon 18 Nov 2013, 12:54 pm

Perhaps this is why Worcester have just one LV win all season.

The SA comparison is silly. England will not win a WC in 2015 without a top class backline.

by Comfort Mon 18 Nov 2013, 1:03 pm

Dean Ryan needs to shut up and do his job first and foremost Laugh

by Geordie Mon 18 Nov 2013, 1:20 pm

JP Pietersen is class...hes a pure beast.

I hate constantly going back to 2003....BUT we need to look at the make up of the 2003 team. The backs aside from Robinson werent all singing all dancing they were effecient. We played wide but it wasnt flamboyant..it was bruttally efficient.

This team needs to look to playing like that. No razamatazz...play it wide but take your chances.

Simples

by propdavid_london Mon 18 Nov 2013, 1:26 pm

I really wouldn't pay too much attention to Dean Ryan. I never really understood quite why so many people thought highly of his coaching.

He coached for a long time at Gloucester - they never won anything of substance under him (perhaps Anglo welsh cup). He coached them at a time that the cherry n whites had a massive pack and were a very effective unit - but they always seemed to choke at the finals or knock out stages of competitions.

He then moved to commentary for a bit before a stint as a consultant for the SRU - not a particularly successful 6N for Scotland! But unfair to judge Ryan too harshly on that.

Then moves to Worcester - current situation they are relegation candidates.

My point being, that coaches are normally judged on their successes and failures - that being the case, is Ryan really that good a coach.

There is a counter to that - My Dad always used to think that Richard Hill (ex-Worcester) was a great coach. He kept Bristol in the premiership for years on a shoestring budget - getting the best out of the players that he had without moaning about the players attitude. Hill did the same when Worcester were promoted until they let him go.

The time for England being the same type of team as 2000-2003 has gone - Despite a good performance against the AB's we don't have the pack to dominate teams the way we did. Therefore we have to try to develop a style that can be executed properly.

by jelly Mon 18 Nov 2013, 1:31 pm

Ben Cohen was superb towards the end of 2012 and early in 2013. By the time of the World Cup he had lost a lot of his threat. Greenwood was a brilliant link player and read the game superbly. Robinson was world class.

At present, only Tuilagi comes close to any of those three. We don't have anyone with the speed or footwork of Robinson and I am struggling to even think of a candidate to replicate the role Greenwood played.

by Geordie Mon 18 Nov 2013, 1:41 pm

At present, only Tuilagi comes close to any of those three. We don't have anyone with the speed or footwork of Robinson and I am struggling to even think of a candidate to replicate the role Greenwood played..

Wade for Robinson.
Twelevtrees needs a bit of time but if he gets it going "could" have the same influence as Greenwood on this team...but its a wait and see.
Yarde For Cohen..

Edit : Add in Eastmond to the lot aswell and we have creativity potential..

Easy Wink

by Scrumpy Mon 18 Nov 2013, 1:52 pm

Breadvan wrote:Eng have the potential to be lethal out wide with the likes of Yarde and Wade as shown in the summers tour to Argentina. Shame we've seen little of them this autumn..

Thats because 36, Joseph or Eastmond were playing in the Centres.

Its like the old rugby saying goes 'show me two world class wingers and I'll show you two world class centres.'* thumbsup

*(not saying they are world class btw but they are better options than what SL went with this AIs)

by Bathman_in_London Mon 18 Nov 2013, 1:57 pm

I saw Dean Ryan on Saturday outside the ground, frankly, he needs to focus on why he as ruined Richard Hill's hard work in the space of a few months, despite bringing in some experienced players.

From watching the game on Saturday I don't think England were exactly flinging it out to the wings at every opportunity anyway, there was a lack of penetration from the backs but I don't think they got too much ball at all.

I'd also point out that this pack is a far cry from the 2003 one. Yes they have played well against NZ twice in a row, but the wales game last year should show us that it would be a mistake to build them up as monsters.

by munkian Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:24 pm

Wade and Yarde played well agaisnt a 2nd/3rd string Pumas team, their 1st team was just put to the sword

Stop pilling so much pressure on young players Rolling Eyes

by Breadvan Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:35 pm

No pressure munk, just want to see these two play. Ashtons out of sorts-ish and Foden aint a winger. Isnt this touring Arge side down a few regulars?

by Scrumpy Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:39 pm

munkian wrote:Wade and Yarde played well agaisnt a 2nd/3rd string Pumas team, their 1st team was just put to the sword

That wasn't their 1st choice team Laugh

One win against a tired, worn out and battered injury depleted team and all of a sudden some Welsh fans are talking the talk again, when do you play Aus again?

by maestegmafia Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:42 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
At present, only Tuilagi comes close to any of those three. We don't have anyone with the speed or footwork of Robinson and I am struggling to even think of a candidate to replicate the role Greenwood played..
Wade for Robinson.
Twelevtrees needs a bit of time but if he gets it going "could" have the same influence as Greenwood on this team...but its a wait and see.
Yarde For Cohen..

Edit : Add in Eastmond to the lot aswell and we have creativity potential..

Easy

Aye but back then you had Wilko and Catty as back up flyhalves and Farrell and Flood are not in the same ball park, Dickson is no Matt Dawson either.

Halfbacks are England massive issue, they select bad decision makers and it is costing them tries.

by jimmyinthewell68 Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:43 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
munkian wrote:Wade and Yarde played well agaisnt a 2nd/3rd string Pumas team, their 1st team was just put to the sword

That wasn't their 1st choice team

One win against a tired, worn out and battered injury depleted team and all of a sudden some Welsh fans are talking the talk again, when do you play Aus again?

i only counted one Welsh poster posting this thank you

by Scrumpy Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:44 pm

Of course there is lots of tries to be had against NZ Shocked

by Scrumpy Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:45 pm

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:
munkian wrote:Wade and Yarde played well agaisnt a 2nd/3rd string Pumas team, their 1st team was just put to the sword

That wasn't their 1st choice team

One win against a tired, worn out and battered injury depleted team and all of a sudden some Welsh fans are talking the talk again, when do you play Aus again?
i only counted one Welsh poster posting this thank you

On this thread maybe, thats why I said SOME! thumbsup

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:46 pm

Scrumpy wrote:Of course there is lots of tries to be had against NZ

He meant against Argentina. We only scored 4.

by beshocked Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:46 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
At present, only Tuilagi comes close to any of those three. We don't have anyone with the speed or footwork of Robinson and I am struggling to even think of a candidate to replicate the role Greenwood played..
Wade for Robinson.
Twelevtrees needs a bit of time but if he gets it going "could" have the same influence as Greenwood on this team...but its a wait and see.
Yarde For Cohen..

Edit : Add in Eastmond to the lot aswell and we have creativity potential..

Easy
Aye but back then you had Wilko and Catty as back up flyhalves and Farrell and Flood are not in the same ball park, Dickson is no Matt Dawson either.

Halfbacks are England massive issue, they select bad decision makers and it is costing them tries.

Would rather have our halfbacks than the jokers you have for Wales. Perhaps you should look to fix your woeful halfbacks before criticising England's.

by munkian Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:48 pm

Yeah, I was definately bigging up Wales there and slagging England, and people say the Welsh are touchy Rolling Eyes

by munkian Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:50 pm

Jebus, they are all at it now, this board is getting more and more pointless everyday, you can't discuss anything without toys being thrown out of the pram

by Scrumpy Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:54 pm

Why come onto an article with the title 'Dean Ryan Wants Lancaster To Abandon Ambition to Play Wide' and start dismissing England’s summer tour of Arg and bigging up Wales win over a poor Argentinean side?

Pathetic - push off furious

by jimmyinthewell68 Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:54 pm

munkian wrote:Yeah, I was definately bigging up Wales there and slagging England, and people say the Welsh are touchy

by beshocked Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:55 pm

munkian it's just a bit hypocritical to criticise England halfbacks where it's an area that Wales have struggled for a long time. Ours are better. It's one are that England are actually superior Wales.

Your place kicker isn't even a 10 - shows a lack of confidence in your fly halves.

by jimmyinthewell68 Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:57 pm

As i see it he wants to play the 2003 England way . why not just go all out dean and ask to give clive the job again

by munkian Mon 18 Nov 2013, 2:59 pm

Wjy is it hypocritical ? YOU are bringing Wales into it, can you only offer a valid opinion if you are English and support the Saracens ?

Farrell isn't the 'iceman' he's made out to be either though is he ? And when he's not kicking well he doesn't really offer much else. I've heard lots of England fans express their doubts about him.

Did you see Wales play ? Phillips and Biggar were both very good.

by Scrumpy Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:04 pm

Yet another article is taken over, FFS this is getting boring!

by formerly known as Sam Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:05 pm

I'm not sure why Dean Ryan is being seen as a fountain of knowledge. He can't engineer an AP win against a Tigers thirds/academy with a large portion of his first team. Surely asking Brian Ashton, SCW and Dean Richards. Coaches is standing would be a better basis for an article.

I also don't think we have that dominant a forward carrying game for the game plan to work.

by munkian Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:12 pm

At last, some reasonable debate ! FKAS you've renewed my shakey faith in humanity Very Happy

Didn't SCW tear into England too or was that all overblown by the press as usual ?

by munkian Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:15 pm

beshocked wrote:Munkian you are right he's not the Iceman. That was a stupid nickname. He's more fiery and gets in people's faces if anything.

Your attitude is from one who doesn't see him play. It would be the equivalent of me saying Halfpenny offers nothing bar being a decent place kicker.

No I didn't see Wales play Argentina but I have seen Biggar and Phillips enough times.

Comfort I am sorry but that's a load of "£$%.If you have nothing constructive to say then £$% off.

This is about England and what England need to do. There's plenty of other threads about trashing England. GE normally has many of them go onto one of them and spout your £$%^.

I'm going by what

A) My English friends and Dad have said, aslo a fair few on here calling for Burns
B) The (fair enough) few Aviva games I've seen him play in
C) The England games I've seen
D) The Lions tour - the only time I've seen him play even slightly creatively.

by munkian Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:16 pm

And 1/2 pence is an amazing place kicker Wink

by **RDW** Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:16 pm

Comfort – removed your post. Bit inappropriate really.

Everyone else – let’s not turn this into a squabbling session eh?

by munkian Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:19 pm

Seriously though RDW , its an article on an English coach criticizing the way England play but as soon as anyone non English comments we are slagging off England ?

by Scrumpy Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:22 pm

Thanks RDW. thumbsup

This is a thread about Dean Ryan’s comments, how it became yet another Wales v England debate is beyond me. Rolling Eyes

by **RDW** Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:22 pm

I've not been following the thread munkian, but as always on V2 people need to take things less personally, and accept that it is OK to have a different opinion!

If anyone has any specific issues please use the report button and don't just cause further arguments.

by Comfort Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:23 pm

The inappropiateness is people acting like little girls who are being rightly told they cant eat their ice cream before their dinner Cool

Beshocked, make me Very Happy

by beshocked Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:23 pm

Comfort it's still a sanctimonious comment from yourself.

Munkian they aren't Gloucester fans by any chance are they? The people I was with thought Farrell was good (admittedly they weren't Gloucester fans)

Would be nice if for once Farrell wasn't repeatedly criticised.

Rugby is about getting the right balance.

Personally I am not convinced Burns is the messiah but that's just my opinion.

Even though he's generally good with ball in hand, I am not convinced by his defence or place kicking. Plus he's hardly set the world alight this season for Gloucester.

I suppose it depends where you feel the blame should be.

Is it the halfbacks or is it the centres?

Personally I feel the English halfbacks are good enough, I believe they are underrated.

It's the centres where I feel England have the biggest problems and have since Greenwood and Tindall partnership.

Talking about going wide - England rarely go wide because the ball hasn't come past the outside centre often.

by funnyExiledScot Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:29 pm

I think Dean Ryan is completely wrong (and I agree with Sam that his views should be taken with a pinch of salt).

Against the ABs England proved that their forwards are top class, but their backs were utterly clueless. Rather than accepting that and reverting to a 10 man game, I'd suggest the opposite. Look to improve by developing that backline into an attacking weapon. It's not like England don't have the resources or players.

I'm not saying that I'd select all these players, but in terms of attacking talent just think of the following: Simpson, B Youngs, D Care, Ford, Burns, Cipriani, Eastmond, Allen, 36, Tuilagi, Joseph, Trinder, Wade, Yarde, Varndell, Sharples, Watson, Foden and May.

Now, if England cannot fashion a backline of note from that lot, then the coaches are in the wrong business. So much attacking talent and ability in England rugby, and a formidable pack to work with.

by jimmyinthewell68 Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:29 pm

i think Lancaster doing a marvelous job . only watched the highlights against New Zealand , England was very very unlucky . i would say they prob get the grand slam next year .

by munkian Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:30 pm

I'm glad to say I don't know any Glos fans Wink

Burns was just an example anyway.

But yes, centre always seems to be an issue for England, you have a solid Barret and explosive Manu then fresh air then some inexperienced youngsters

by Scrumpy Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:30 pm

To be fair to Ryan I think he is talking a lot of sense, England will never play like NZ when we move the ball wide, but we can play like England, 3 RWC finals shows that by playing a certain way (using our Forwards) can get us results.

Its as clear to anyone who has watched a game of rugby that the England backs are poor when we have the ball, that has to be worked on and a solution found ASAP.

But in truth if I was a Wuzz fan I'd be pretty angry with Ryan getting involved with this when he needs to sort out his own house first.

by Comfort Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:43 pm

A sanctimonious statement, how ironic! Laugh

Seriously though, a statement was made by a poster stating that he thought the english weakness was at halfback because they selected bad decision makers.

Instead of doing anything near acceptability, you made a throwaway remark about the welsh halfbacks being "jokers" and that our 10 wasnt even our goalkicker.

Im going to let you pick that apart yourself and make your own assessment of how you came across.

More irony ensues because if you had checked my comments on the 'English Centres' thread you would have see my opinions on why the english backlines stuttering and it certainly wasnt that it was farrells fault.

Its hard to take people seriously on here when they act like that this.

by beshocked Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:45 pm

FES unfortunately in that list most players are unproven at international level. Plus if you just focus on attack,attack, attack you forget underrated facets like defence, not making errors and being generally mentally strong/comfortable.

Depends what you mean by ability. Would anyone really want chargedown Cipriani back in the no 10 shirt now?

Munkian fair enough but do they watch rugby regularly?

by funnyExiledScot Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:49 pm

Scrumpy wrote:To be fair to Ryan I think he is talking a lot of sense, England will never play like NZ when we move the ball wide, but we can play like England, 3 RWC finals shows that by playing a certain way (using our Forwards) can get us results.

Um, well you've only won one World Cup, and that coincided with you having both excellent forwards and excellent backs; playing 15 rather than 10 man rugby.

I'd respectfully suggest that 2007 is not a template to follow.

Lancaster has correct stated that the objective is not to "copy" the All Blacks. Quite right. However England do seriously need to develop an attacking wide game. That doesn't mean sling the ball around all the time, but when England get territory and possession they need to be coverting chances and scoring 7 pointers. Against NZ there just wasn't a threat from the England backs. In fact the best examples of fixing opponents and putting players into space tended to come from the forwards.

by beshocked Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:52 pm

Comfort wrote:A sanctimonious statement, how ironic!

Seriously though, a statement was made by a poster stating that he thought the english weakness was at halfback because they selected bad decision makers.

Instead of doing anything near acceptability, you made a throwaway remark about the welsh halfbacks being "jokers" and that our 10 wasnt even our goalkicker.

Im going to let you pick that apart yourself and make your own assessment of how you came across.

More irony ensues because if you had checked my comments on the 'English Centres' thread you would have see my opinions on why the english backlines stuttering and it certainly wasnt that it was farrells fault.

Its hard to take people seriously on here when they act like that this.

Well i am sorry Comfort but when that inane comment comes from perhaps one of the biggest WUMs,maestegmafia it has to be challenged. I have a big problem with maestegmafia, he's like the Welsh TJ or the Welsh GE.

I apologise for calling the Welsh half backs jokers. I just think it's hypocritical to criticise our half backs when Wales seem to have a bigger problem in my opinion.

I don't like Maestegmafia criticising either Dickson or Farrell because I think he's been really harsh and seems to be from someone who I doubt saw them play.

by Scrumpy Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:56 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:To be fair to Ryan I think he is talking a lot of sense, England will never play like NZ when we move the ball wide, but we can play like England, 3 RWC finals shows that by playing a certain way (using our Forwards) can get us results.
Um, well you've only won one World Cup, and that coincided with you having both excellent forwards and excellent backs; playing 15 rather than 10 man rugby.

I'd respectfully suggest that 2007 is not a template to follow.

Lancaster has correct stated that the objective is not to "copy" the All Blacks. Quite right. However England do seriously need to develop an attacking wide game. That doesn't mean sling the ball around all the time, but when England get territory and possession they need to be coverting chances and scoring 7 pointers. Against NZ there just wasn't a threat from the England backs. In fact the best examples of fixing opponents and putting players into space tended to come from the forwards.

Making the final is still an achievement, RWC Finals are not to be sniffed at IF it hadn't been for the change of game plan in 91 or a foot deemed to be in touch then we might have won all three.

Playing the England way may not suite or please everyone, but it seems to work for us.

by Scrumpy Mon 18 Nov 2013, 3:59 pm

But I agree we need to do something with our backs ASAP.

by Comfort Mon 18 Nov 2013, 4:01 pm

beshocked, we actually agree on most things there!!

Hug

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