Who do you blame for Mike Tyson's demise ?

First topic message reminder :

1. Cus D'amato's obsessive desire to get another heavy champ...overlooking personality traits and faults on the way..
2. Jacobs and Cayton's handling of their million dollar baby..
3. The Roper's...
4. Don king.
5. Mike Tyson himself..

Me I've got alot of sympathy for Mike used from start to finish......

For me all the above were in some way at fault however I do believe Cus and the Managers cared at some basic level and it was the Roper's who for me bear most responsibility..For removing Mike's comfort zone.

prettyboykev wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Look I'm not interested you and your anti-American cheap shots.

Stick to Manny worshipping.

Cheap but true.

Poor Tiger Woods he was a sex addict and couldn't help himself, lucky he went to rehab.

Did you see the ass Tiger was tappin? You would be a sex addict as well. Poor Tiger my ariss he is a lucky boy.

Yeah Poor Tiger, it was probably due to his upbringing, I don't know how he coped.

If Tyson came from a "good home" he might have done some training instead of robbing liqour stores, doing drugs to prepare for a fight.

He could have ended up like Charlie Sheen.

Have you know compassion for Charlie Sheen.

Shouldn't we all feel sorry for him.

Charlie Sheen has drug fuelled orgies with porn stars and hookers. I have a couple of coronas and a bit of humpty dumpty with the Mrs if she can be arissd. My heart is breaking for the guy.

Don't complain mate, you don't know how lucky you are. My missus hasn't put out in over a year. At the moment, if i fell in a bucket of tit5 i'd come out sucking my thumb.

Everyone has moral responsibility and I said Tyson is responsible for his actions....However society must take into consideration that people are in some way made into what they are.....and Compassion is required..

No one chooses to be an addict......but it's down to their actions that they are.....However others must take responsibility for moulding them in that way..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:While that is true Sugar...not everybody has the advantages given to others...

To attain anything in one's life one needs confidence.. If you've been abused at home or bullied by others then one might not be as confident or maybe harmed mentally..

Your view is too simplistic..People aren't machines and some people don't have the some positive life experiences may be you have had.

Yes you are right Truss and I sympathise with Tyson up to a point.

My view is not too simplistic, due to the fact that some of his actions were so deplorable that there has to be a line drawn between looking for others to blame and acknowledging that the bulk of the responsibility lays with the individual himself.

You asked who was responsible for the downturn in tysons career, and to me the answer is clear: Tyson himself. Whether it's because of actions he undertook of his own free will or because he was too easily led, when you get into the realms of physical and sexual assault the buck has to stop with him.

Everyone picks the roads they drive up...Sean.

However experience does make us the people we are..

The more negatives in our life..the more negative we are....

Don't buy the sexual assault......case was flawed and he shockingly defended.

azania wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:

azania wrote:I read the story about a little kid who lived with dogs somewhere in the urals in Russia. Surprisingly the boy couldn't speak and often barked and growled. He attacked people who he felt threatened him.

Another kid in similar circumstances in India was fine after rescued.

Of course the russian kid only had himself to blame for attacking those who he felt threatened by. His personal circumstances and upbringing had nothing to to with anything whatsoever.

Damned ferrell kids.

If I put in to written words how daft and pointless that comparison is to Mike Tyson and his subsequent life, I'd be banned from the site.

Feel free. I'll ensure you dont get banned (so long as you asterix all swearing).

Two main gripes for me, then. First off, that Russian boy's upbringing would be a total anomaly, almost unique to him and him alone in this day and age, and something totally beyond comprehension of an overwhelming majority of the earth's population. Tyson's upbringing, quite patently, wasn't.

Next, having had no contact with human beings and therefore not knowing such a way of life, the boy would have known no better than to bark and growl at those who he felt were a threat to him, as he was, inside his own head, a dog for all intents and purposes. Are you seriously suggesting that Tyson didn't know any better than to beat up women, sexually assault someone and bite someone's ear off? Are we supposed to believe that he had no idea that these were things usually frowned upon in society?

I don't buy the sexault assault rap.....

Middle class people beat up their Wives too.....Some are sadistic people with no regard for humanity...No time for them but others have a root cause for their behaviour and need counselling...

People are different...No way would I condone assault but alot of Tyson's actions were self harming...

Are we supposed to believe that he had no idea that these were things usually frowned upon in society?

You should hang around with more Tyson apolgists. They have you believe that Mike came form Outer Space and was corrupted by the iniquity of Earthmen!

Nanoo nanoo....shazzzbattt!

What are you talking about???

I'm not absolving him of his sins just saying people are moulded..and it's not all his fault

Run along...

The more I listen to TRUSS the more I'm inclined to believe the veracity of his theory....it's got nowt to do with the strength of his argument, but when you see how year after year he comes out with the same old clap trap, it's obvious he's a victim of abuse and he can't help himself!

DAVE667 wrote:The more I listen to TRUSS the more I'm inclined to believe the veracity of his theory....it's got nowt to do with the strength of his argument, but when you see how year after year he comes out with the same old clap trap, it's obvious he's a victim of abuse and he can't help himself!

Whoa I'm staying out of this one now!

The usual cheap retort.....Classy guy.

If only you meant that prettyboy...

Unfortunately with adult threads like this one because some people can't grasp the subject at hand.. they make silly cheap insults...

Better to stay away from the topic than look stupid would be my advice.

What next Sarah Payne jokes??

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I don't buy the sexault assault rap.....

Middle class people beat up their Wives too.....Some are sadistic people with no regard for humanity...No time for them but others have a root cause for their behaviour and need counselling...

People are different...No way would I condone assault but alot of Tyson's actions were self harming...

Point one. As I've already said, a jury of Tyson's peers (who saw the evidence at hand and were in a much better position to give an accurate appraisal than you) did buy the rap, so that's a moot point. You can go on all you like about how the case doesn't hold water, how he was poorly defended and so on. The fact is, no evidence has come to light since which clears his name, or has even warranted a retrial.

Next, your point regarding middle class men hitting women, too. Nobody is disputing this. But here's thing to consider; there are people born of a tough, deprived background such as Tyson, who also haven't received the love and guidance that more fortunate children have - but they don't go around conducting themselves in the manner which Tyson did. Works both ways.

I've seen you call Duran 'vile' amongst many other things for the way he grabbed his crotch and yelled at Ray Leonard's wife after the brawl in Montreal. That minor crime is trivial compared to what Tyson has done in his life. Why no such understanding and tolerance for Duran, then? He came from a tougher background than Tyson, and like Iron Mike has had his share of personal problems such as managerial disputes and being surrounded by leeches, keen to feed off his fame.

You can't have it both ways, and as Scott has already raised, if we took your 'society moulds us all in to what we are' line, then nobody would ever be sentanced to prison; afterall, their crimes aren't their fault, they've had personal problems and are therefore only partly to blame for their misdemeanours.

I've mentioned before Chris that background has nothing to do with it...Plenty of middle class people have been abused and turned to alcohol later in life..

I've said money means nothing..

Duran is vile he used to kill innocent cats back home for fun by swinging them against walls.....That's vile..and that's a big reason I dislike the guy....

He's a sadist as the Moore fight showed....he would've killed the guy...


Don't think he's quite what I'm talking about.......

What? I'm only suggesting that your insistance on behaving in a certain manner despite being shown (numerous times) the error of your ways, is indicative of some kind of trauma that's affected you in ways you aren't intellectually or emotionally equipped to deal with.

Tme and time again, you come out with these ridiculous proclamations, hurl insults at anyone who dares disagree with you and then try and absolve yourself of any wrong doing by suggesting that you're being picked on.

Surely this harmful cycle demonstrates clearly that you've suffered as a child and still struggle to come to terms with it as an "adult". Your transparent attempts at asserting your "authority" in the guise of "armchair psychology" and narcissism in the form of weightlifting serve only to show you to be a disturbed individual desperately clinging onto the belief that everything is somehow someone else's fault.

Your willingness to embrace Tyson as a kindred spirit despite overwhelming evidence to suggest Mike was solely instrumental for much of his downfall, especially late in life, is both heartwarming and vomit-inducing in equal measure.

I'm surprised you havn't leapt to Zab Judah's defence for hurling a stool at Jay Nady

It's sad...but so obvious when you look at it!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If only you meant that prettyboy...

Unfortunately with adult threads like this one because some people can't grasp the subject at hand.. they make silly cheap insults...

Better to stay away from the topic than look stupid would be my advice.

What next Sarah Payne jokes??

Truss I will debate all day long with you the subject of the thread but I'm not willing to get into what was said I don't know nothing about you and would never say anything like what was said.

Well you just said I ws a victim of abuse......A pop that was cheap.

I don't want to debate you. because it's impossible to do so....

Just hit and run Mate.....Like Scotty it's what you do best.

Chris made a good post I didn't necessarily agree with but I see his point..

That's the way to go about debating. Nice and mature.

Now go away you no good teaboy..

I never said you were a victim of abuse go and read who said it. I tried to debate Scott Harrison with you on another thread and you never responded when I proved you wrong which shows you are impossible to debate with.

Resorting to insults just proves you are wrong. I am also above the level of cheap insults.

That's the way to go about debating. Nice and mature.
_________________________________________

From a man who has blithely assumed he knows everyones personal circumstances simply due to their views on Mike Tyson and the level of sympathy they feel is appropriate for him to question the debating skills of others is a little rich as it was patronising in the exteme and more than a little insulting

Awww, cheap "teaboy" pops from Mr Maturity over there.

Face it TRUSS, your argument is inherently flawed and just because we've been kind enough to point that out, you've insulted us...again. You've demonstrated little or no class and the fact you still seem to think you're engaged in a debate shows you really do have no concept of what it entails.

By the way, I believe the phrase is "I don't want to debate WITH you" as to "debate me" would be to make me the subject of the debate. Once again, your tenuous grasp on the English language has lead to your downfall, but no doubt you'll claim it's "an American term" which we now take to mean..."I got it wrong"

Your opening gambit gave five options as to who we felt was responsible for Mike's demise and yet when people chose option #5 (Mike himself) they were met with abuse and scorn.

Seems you're missing the whole point of a debate son. We're allowed differing opinions and just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we're wrong.

Get it? Got it? GOOD!

You're reaching aren't you....

I was commenting on your lack of compassion and empathy....and the fact it's alien to a person who's come into contact with sufferers of abuse..

We won't go there though...You're being silly.

Surely this thread has run its course now and should be locked?

I'm a victim of abuse and now you are telling me how Americans phrase their lines....

Like I said this debate is above your pay grade....

By the way I said Tyson was responsible as everybody is but there are mitigating circumstances...for every action unless one is a sadist or sociopath/psychopath..

But just glean what you will from my posts..

Hopefully valero you'll add something constructive before that happens.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm a victim of abuse and now you are telling me how Americans phrase their lines....

Like I said this debate is above your pay grade....

By the way I said Tyson was responsible as everybody is but there are mitigating circumstances...for every action unless one is a sadist or sociopath/psychopath..

But just glean what you will from my posts..

You accused of me saying you were a victim of abuse which I never I await my apology.

Valero's Conscience wrote:Surely this thread has run its course now and should be locked?

So long as it stays high spirited but falls short of nasty I'm of the opinion we should let it run, Valero.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're reaching aren't you....

I was commenting on your lack of compassion and empathy....and the fact it's alien to a person who's come into contact with sufferers of abuse..

We won't go there though...You're being silly.

No Truss you said it was clear from mine and other people's attitude to Tyson we had no experience or exposure to people who had suffered through substance abuse, a claim I pointed out and still maintained was ridiculous because it was an absolute impossibility for you to know our circumstances, because some of us choose to keep certain elements of our private lives just that, private.

I wasn't accusing you....Pretty.

Look there is nothing nasty being written as far as I can tell..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hopefully valero you'll add something constructive before that happens.

Already had my opinion and posted. Don't know what more you want me to do. Or do you want me to give my opinion on people's personal problems and why they have them?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're reaching aren't you....

I was commenting on your lack of compassion and empathy....and the fact it's alien to a person who's come into contact with sufferers of abuse..

We won't go there though...You're being silly.

You're reaching a bit yourself, son. I'm saying I have little sympathy for Mike Tyson with regard to certain aspects of his life. This in no way reflects on my, or anyone else's ability to sympathise (and in the case of some posters on here, actually EMPATHISE) with those who've been abused. It's arrogance in the extreme for you to assume otherwise as well...but then that's you all over isn't it?

I'll tell you what though. In the spirit of the thread, I'll give you one reason I have to feel sorry for Mike...and that is the tragic death of his daughter. Whatever he did in his life, I feel nothing but the utmost sympathy for the man in that circumstance.

Okay Rowley I respect your privacy....I'll say then that I'd be disappointed with anybody who had such experience and then lacked compassion for people with these problems..

I retract the previous line I took...

But from your writings I'd be surprised If you had..

Tyson only has himself to blame, ultimately it his life and while others may have tried to guide him down certain routes it is he who has the final say.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Okay Rowley I respect your privacy....I'll say then that I'd be disappointed with anybody who had such experience and then lacked compassion for people with these problems..

I retract the previous line I took...

But from your writings I'd be surprised If you had..

The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.

Bet Andy Murray wishes he could deliver such a backhand

How simplistic..All black and white with no grey..

If only life was like that.

Only a muppet would think the reaching comment was aimed at you..

Andy Murray backhand..Probably about as mature a comment as we'll get off this guy!!

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:I'm a great believer in every man ultimately being responsible for his own actions and being in charge of his own destiny.

Tyson was always gonna be surrounded by hype and sycophants, but no-one forced him to start believing his own hype and neglect his boxing skills - which led (in part) to the Douglas defeat (that and the fact he was always gonna struggle against a taller guy who used a good jab and refused to be intimidated). Did his 'advisors' advise him to sexually assault a woman? Or bite another mans ear off? Or take drugs? Or beat that civilian up?

Yes he was badly advised, but his biggest problems came about due to his own personality defects and mental weaknesses. All men make mistakes in their youth, if you're smart you learn from them - Tyson did not. I can't go along with all this passing the buck mentality and making excuses for other peoples behaviour. Tyson was a talented but flawed individual, but ultimately - just like you and me - he has to be responsible for his own actions.

Just imaagine if McEnroe was a boxer.

Always thought he was more of a rottweiler than a boxer..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Okay Rowley I respect your privacy....I'll say then that I'd be disappointed with anybody who had such experience and then lacked compassion for people with these problems..

I retract the previous line I took...

But from your writings I'd be surprised If you had..

Oh dear, you were doing so well until that last line. You nearly managed to give a dignified and proper retraction...Couldn't quite manage it though, could you?

I always preferred Lennon to Mccartney..

prettyboykev wrote:If he doesn't have to take responsibility for all the negative stuff around him and the mistakes he made in life then who gets the credit for the positive stuff he did?

Who is saying he doesn't have to take responsibility for the negative stuff? What I am saying is that the responsibility is shared with Tyson himself taking a large share of the blame.

As for the Cuddle thing, if he had Johnny Cochrane as a lawyer he wouldn't have seen the inside of prison.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I always preferred Lennon to Mccartney..

Imagine.

I've always been a "Jealous guy"...Windy.

The buck stops at Tyson, others may have influenced him but it's his responsibilty not theirs

The buck stops....Harry Truman eat your heart out...

How simplistic..All black and white with no grey..


isn't that every argument you've ever had?

"I'm right, you're wrong...end off!"?

Yup, sounds like it to me.

You've been shown up again TRUSS...then again, this is what happens when you repeat the same old dross.

I know people who've been given chance after chance after chance to turn their life around (drug intervention programs, AA, counselling, housing... the whole nine yards) and they've thrown it back in the the faces of those who've endeavoured to help them back onto their feet. Then when you consider that there are numerous other people missing out on the same opportunities to get ahead who you believe would have at least made a go of things, it's hard to comtinue to be sympathetic.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I've always been a "Jealous guy"...Windy.

Nice one, mate.

If I'm always right I wouldn't have retracted a line a few minutes ago would I??

Maybe you should read a thread before posting.....

You make recovering from an addiction sound simple..If it was people wouldn't need these clinics...

Give it a rest.

Let me tell you something about why people throw things back in Society's face etc...

Because the reason they turned to drink in the first place is because they have no esteem so when they try to quit and then get hit by a relationship breakdown or guilt over the hurt they put their families through (maybe a bereavement) they become their own worst enemies and revert to solace in the bottle..It's not black and white addiction!!

You don't know anything about it........If ignorance is bliss you must be a happy man.

88Chris05 wrote:

azania wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:

azania wrote:I read the story about a little kid who lived with dogs somewhere in the urals in Russia. Surprisingly the boy couldn't speak and often barked and growled. He attacked people who he felt threatened him.

Another kid in similar circumstances in India was fine after rescued.

Of course the russian kid only had himself to blame for attacking those who he felt threatened by. His personal circumstances and upbringing had nothing to to with anything whatsoever.

Damned ferrell kids.

If I put in to written words how daft and pointless that comparison is to Mike Tyson and his subsequent life, I'd be banned from the site.

Feel free. I'll ensure you dont get banned (so long as you asterix all swearing).

Two main gripes for me, then. First off, that Russian boy's upbringing would be a total anomaly, almost unique to him and him alone in this day and age, and something totally beyond comprehension of an overwhelming majority of the earth's population. Tyson's upbringing, quite patently, wasn't.

Next, having had no contact with human beings and therefore not knowing such a way of life, the boy would have known no better than to bark and growl at those who he felt were a threat to him, as he was, inside his own head, a dog for all intents and purposes. Are you seriously suggesting that Tyson didn't know any better than to beat up women, sexually assault someone and bite someone's ear off? Are we supposed to believe that he had no idea that these were things usually frowned upon in society?

Tyson's upbringing was unique to himself.....like each of our own. How we deal with it is what is important. Also the outside influences. Look at the inner cities and projects of the US. Do you think drug dealers and wasted lives are there by choice or do you thinnk outside influences have an effect?

Now a drug dealer has a choice. Often that choice is life or death. Tyson had a choice to do better. But outside influences conspired and his career spiralled downwards. Of course he had a choice, but his choices were limited seeing as those around him in his formative years paid off others who he messed about with, made excuses for his minor misdemeanours, completed rippen him off (those he trusted). For someone of that age, I am surprised he didn't explode with greater effect. In fact I am surprised he didn't commit suicide.

Tyson knew no better than those "ferel" kids. He was a product of his environment and influences.

That's a very mature post Azania....Everybody is different and reacts to things in different ways..

People have to realise that the coping mechanism is different in all of us.