Who do you blame for Mike Tyson's demise ?

1. Cus D'amato's obsessive desire to get another heavy champ...overlooking personality traits and faults on the way..
2. Jacobs and Cayton's handling of their million dollar baby..
3. The Roper's...
4. Don king.
5. Mike Tyson himself..

Me I've got alot of sympathy for Mike used from start to finish......

For me all the above were in some way at fault however I do believe Cus and the Managers cared at some basic level and it was the Roper's who for me bear most responsibility..For removing Mike's comfort zone.

Mike Tyson

Mike himself to be honest, but he was a young kid in a hard environment full of people just wanting to use him.

Himself, number 5.

At the end of the day he has only got himself to blame.

Although he could have been advised better, would he have taken the advice? I doubt it

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:1. Cus D'amato's obsessive desire to get another heavy champ...overlooking personality traits and faults on the way..
2. Jacobs and Cayton's handling of their million dollar baby..
3. The Roper's...
4. Don king.
5. Mike Tyson himself..

Me I've got alot of sympathy for Mike used from start to finish......

For me all the above were in some way at fault however I do believe Cus and the Managers cared at some basic level and it was the Roper's who for me bear most responsibility..For removing Mike's comfort zone.

No.3. George and Mildred never did like him.

Seriously, though, I believe Tyson to have been psychologically unstable, courtesy either of his upbringing or an underlying medical issue. D'Amato and Tyson, himself, probably didn't do him too many favours.

6. Father Christmas

5 Mike Tyson

Ultimately nearly every problem that has beset Mike can be traced back to a bad decision he has made. He dumped Cayton and Jacobs for King, he married Givens, he dumped Rooney for Snowell etc etc. Have sympathy to a degree as being in such a position cannot be easy, but having a tough upbringing, being a target for money grabbers and being ripped off by promoters are not circumstances unique to Mike. Others have simply handled such hurdles far far better

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5.

Jacobs and Cayton (Jacobs in particular) seemed to care for Tyson the person. After Jacobs died he had no real influence. The rest saw him as a cash cow.

As Windy alluded to, he was unstable and had no real boundaries. Treat anyone in the very same way from an early age and they will go wild. Much like an abused child very often ends up being an abuser.

First of all himself for dumping his original trainers and team.
But I have always had a hatred of his hangers on that were around when aron snoel or whoever attempted to train him. Watching some of them fights when afterwards they all made full use of their 15 minutes of fame and were so obvious when looking into the cameras.

Tyson, without doubt. Some would have us believe he's the only boxer in history to come from a grim background and be surrounded by shady characters.

The biggest red herring of the lot in Tyson's 'fall from grace' is Don King. There's this daft idea that floats around that, before King came in to the picture, Tyson was a well-balanced individual, an upstanding citizen of mankind without fault or a care in the world, which we all know is absolute nonsense. Those who shift the 'blame' to King are simply looking for yet another excuse for the most protected soul in boxing (Tyson) and see King as an easy target due to his other misdemeanours. Ironically, so many of those who do just that are happy to bang on about how Meyran 'robbed' Tyson against Douglas and are also happy to ignore Tyson undeservedly leapfrogging more worthy contenders for the WBC and WBA titles after his release from prison, two elements which were totally devised by King and only possible due to the shady nature of his work. Can't have it both ways.

Ultimately, Tyson has to take the responsibility for his own actions. As I've pointed out many times before, plenty of others have had a more taxing upbringing and early life. I've never seen anyone as quick to defend them and their actions due to that, so why should we for Tyson?

George and Mildred?????...

I'm disappointed ...that a guy who is basically in care and who feels unloved and unwanted but has a gift that is exploited by others for great wealth gets no sympathy....

When I was studying for my degree I worked in a priory clinic and saw the devastation that a poor upbringing can have on someone.......

We are all in some way responsible for our actions but the way people are treated have consequences positive or negative..

Actions have consequences..

Tyson isn't a strong person and other people need to take responsibility too...

If someone is abused at a young age and turns to alcohol should the abuser take no responsibility for the alcoholism??.

Maybe you guys have had lives that have been too easy..

Your lack of sympathy is both sad and disturbing..

Mike himself. Yes he was used and abused by various characters, but so have been many other people from similar or worse backgrounds and they still found the inner strength to make the "right" decisions.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:When I was in a priory clinic the nurses saw the devastation that a poor upbringing can have on someone.......

Fixed.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:George and Mildred?????...

I'm disappointed ...that a guy who is basically in care and who feels unloved and unwanted but has a gift that is exploited by others for great wealth gets no sympathy....

Old British sitcom called ' The Ropers, ' Truss. Sorry, mate, but I couldn't resist.

As to the rest of it, I think many of us will feel sympathy for Tyson - I certainly do - but this would not necessarily exclude the opinion that he, at least in part, contributed to his own downfall. A little bit like George Best, I suppose. I do believe that he was damaged goods, though.

Don't think it's a lack of sympathy per-se Truss but as others have said plenty other fighters have come from similarly tough upbringings and have overcome them, hard reality is Mike has blown pretty much every opportunity to do otherwise.

Also think in the context of this debate and forums in general our views probably come across as a little harsher than they are because when it comes to Mike it is a short step from looking at other people who have abused him to the fanatics using this as an excuse to gloss over every poor performance and disappointment in his career,

The fact you're making fun of something like that kind of say's it all about you..

I've met quite alot of drug and alcohol dependant people with devastated lives....whilst volunteering..

They were all better than you now.. run along..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:George and Mildred?????...

I'm disappointed ...that a guy who is basically in care and who feels unloved and unwanted but has a gift that is exploited by others for great wealth gets no sympathy....

When I was studying for my degree I worked in a priory clinic and saw the devastation that a poor upbringing can have on someone.......

We are all in some way responsible for our actions but the way people are treated have consequences positive or negative..

Actions have consequences..

Tyson isn't a strong person and other people need to take responsibility too...

If someone is abused at a young age and turns to alcohol should the abuser take no responsibility for the alcoholism??.

Maybe you guys have had lives that have been too easy..

Your lack of sympathy is both sad and disturbing..

Wait a minute I got to play a song on my little violin

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The fact you're making fun of something like that kind of say's it all about you..

I've met quite alot of drug and alcohol dependant people with devastated lives....whilst volunteering..

They were all better than you now.. run along..

To whom is that addressed, Truss ?

Expected better from you D4.....

I guess having compassion is something to be ashamed of......

Well fair enough....

Just as well some people care..

That hilarious wally that thought he'd stick "nurses" into my quote..

Pathetic but entirely predictable..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:That hilarious wally that thought he'd stick "nurses" into my quote..

Pathetic but entirely predictable..

Got it.

For a moment I feared I'd offended you with my little quip about ' The Ropers.'

Trussman, fair enough if you want to take a more sympathetic view of Tyson, that's up to you. But while you may think some of our responses have been beyond the pale, they're hardly unmerited. People not feeling all that generous towards a convicted sex offender, a man who bit off part of a fellow professional's ear, a man who has admitted to regularly hitting his first wife and a man who has unleashed countless crass, uncalled for and frankly vile torrents of abuse at many an interviewer / press member is hardly surprising, is it?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:That hilarious wally that thought he'd stick "nurses" into my quote..

Pathetic but entirely predictable..

Just a joke TRUSS, surely you appreciate the irony of criticising someone for being predictable while offering this article for the 30th time?

My first response was one of the most sympathetic anyway.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Expected better from you D4.....

I guess having compassion is something to be ashamed of......

Well fair enough....

Just as well some people care..

Poor old Tyson, having all that millions to spend, my heart bleeds.

I guess people forced Tyson to commit crime and take drugs, not to train, cheat on his wife.

Tyson has had a great life compared to 99% of the worlds population.

You could never offend me old boy.....

I must have seen eight or nine people in my time there mostly young either commit suicide or lost to drink.....Some of them abused or put in care or just divorced and struggling to cope..

Good people hurt by the actions of others....

Most of the staff there were volunteers like myself..

For every action there is a consequence...

Don't find "get the violins out " very amusing or mature when attributed to a sad complete waste of human life......

The priory took every death personally and hard.....

Despite my generally good lifestyle I've never lacked compassion..

A trait not generally shared on here it seems..

You're a good man TRUSS. A selfless, educated liberal to be admired by all.

Why don't you stroll on......go on youtube and watch some homeless person begging or something.

You'd probably enjoy that.

Truss to play devils advocate how is Robin Givens portrayed on this and countless other boxing forums. Commonly as a money grabbing maneaterwho bled Mike dry. Am not arguing this is not without some accuracy but she was also the victim of spousal abuse and domestic violence and not just from anyone but from a trained professional fighter. Rarely see too much sympathy being thrown her way when no matter what her failings she has had to endure something no woman should endure in married life.

Mike is not the only victim in his story, compassion and sympathy is a two way street and whilst I have a degree of sympathy for Mike it is tempered by a level of contempt that I hold for any man who would raise his hands to a woman.

Personally i don't pity people who have destroyed their own lives through drink and drugs. Mental weakness in my opinion!

Bit like fat people who cry because they're so fat... don't get any pity from me as it's not like the evil pixies came in the middle of the night and shoved 15 big mac meals down their neck.

Slightly controversial, but oh well

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Why don't you stroll on......go on youtube and watch some homeless person begging or something.

You'd probably enjoy that.

And whats Tyson's hard luck story?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Why don't you stroll on......go on youtube and watch some homeless person begging or something.

You'd probably enjoy that.

You have any good clips?

She said she was pregnant as a ruse to get him in church...Totally destroyed him on ABC with Walters and then tried to empty all his accounts when they split....

No one deserves physical abuse but my sympathies are with Mike....

The Mother was no doubt worse than the daughter though.

coxy0001 wrote:Personally i don't pity people who have destroyed their own lives through drink and drugs. Mental weakness in my opinion!

Bit like fat people who cry because they're so fat... don't get any pity from me as it's not like the evil pixies came in the middle of the night and shoved 15 big mac meals down their neck.

Slightly controversial, but oh well

Spot on Coxy

Trussman, you can't seriously be comparing the case of Tyson to those penniless cases we see on the streets, or the users you saw in your time at the Priory? The individuals you came across in those situations (which I'm sure would have been very harrowing, don't get me wrong) more often than not wouldn't even have had a first chance in life, never mind the second, third, fourth and so on chances that Tyson has had.

While Tyson may have been hurt by others, you can't just sweep all the people he himself has hurt under the carpet. As I said, why should anyone be obliged to feel sorry for a sex offender, wife beater and a man who took it upon himself to mutilate a fellow professional? Tyson has had numerous chances to turn his life around, and each time he's hit the self-destruct button.

D4thincarnation wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:Personally i don't pity people who have destroyed their own lives through drink and drugs. Mental weakness in my opinion!

Bit like fat people who cry because they're so fat... don't get any pity from me as it's not like the evil pixies came in the middle of the night and shoved 15 big mac meals down their neck.

Slightly controversial, but oh well

Spot on Coxy

We agree on something?!

It's only taken 2 years....

coxy0001 wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:Personally i don't pity people who have destroyed their own lives through drink and drugs. Mental weakness in my opinion!

Bit like fat people who cry because they're so fat... don't get any pity from me as it's not like the evil pixies came in the middle of the night and shoved 15 big mac meals down their neck.

Slightly controversial, but oh well

Spot on Coxy

We agree on something?!

It's only taken 2 years....

Think you should both quit whilst you're ahead, like a middle east cease fire this surely cannot last

rowley wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:Personally i don't pity people who have destroyed their own lives through drink and drugs. Mental weakness in my opinion!

Bit like fat people who cry because they're so fat... don't get any pity from me as it's not like the evil pixies came in the middle of the night and shoved 15 big mac meals down their neck.

Slightly controversial, but oh well

Spot on Coxy

We agree on something?!

It's only taken 2 years....

Think you should both quit whilst you're ahead, like a middle east cease fire this surely cannot last

I just fell off my chair.

You could have warned me guys. Respect and compassion for the elderly, and all that.

Come on that court case had more holes in it than a golf course CHRIS....

As for Coxy and the rest...maybe if one of their family members was to go down the road of some of these people.. their opinions might change.

Easy to play the i'm a hard man card in cold blood....

I'm afraid.. like chucking a pebble in a pond.. alcoholism affects everybody close to the individual involved......

Like I said these volunteers are special, self-less people..and heroes that care!!

88Chris05 wrote:Trussman, you can't seriously be comparing the case of Tyson to those penniless cases we see on the streets, or the users you saw in your time at the Priory? The individuals you came across in those situations (which I'm sure would have been very harrowing, don't get me wrong) more often than not wouldn't even have had a first chance in life, never mind the second, third, fourth and so on chances that Tyson has had.

While Tyson may have been hurt by others, you can't just sweep all the people he himself has hurt under the carpet. As I said, why should anyone be obliged to feel sorry for a sex offender, wife beater and a man who took it upon himself to mutilate a fellow professional? Tyson has had numerous chances to turn his life around, and each time he's hit the self-destruct button.

Let's not have a balanced view here. I said that he's responsible for his own actions, but had unfortunate circumstances therefore I enjoy seeing homeless people...

Why should money change anything????

Why should a guy with money not feel hurt at being used..

Does money make you less sensitive?? Less prone to being hurt??

Money can buy you cars and houses it can't change what has been done to you in the past..

You guys are naive..In the priory we had rich businessman as well as the rest...

You people are so out of touch you judge people on the size of their wallets!!!!

Only poor no good slime are alcoholics in your World..

Money means nothing!!!!

coxy0001 wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:Personally i don't pity people who have destroyed their own lives through drink and drugs. Mental weakness in my opinion!

Bit like fat people who cry because they're so fat... don't get any pity from me as it's not like the evil pixies came in the middle of the night and shoved 15 big mac meals down their neck.

Slightly controversial, but oh well

Spot on Coxy

We agree on something?!

It's only taken 2 years....

I feel the lurve

I'm with Truss totally here. No-one can assume what mental damage a lifetime of abuse causes to someone. Just because he made money doesn't make the mental abuse any less damaging.

From day 1 he had no chance. The glory he got and money, adulation etc couldn't hide the damage. In fact it amplified it.

Yes ultimately Tyson himself has to take responsibility, but so many other players contru=ibuted to his demise. To discount that is to ignore human nature which is varied by definition.

Still no-one has asnwered by an abused person often grow up to be abusers themselves. From our safe and closeted environment we can all say with absolute ease what others should and shouldn't do. But until you are in their shoes we will never know. I often wonder how Mandela came out of prison calm and reassuring. If I were in his position I would seek my ton of flesh.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Come on that court case had more holes in it than a golf course CHRIS....

As for Coxy and the rest...maybe if one of their family members was to go down the road of some of these people.. their opinions might change.

Easy to play the i'm a hard man card in cold blood....

I'm afraid.. like chucking a pebble in a pond.. alcoholism affects everybody close to the individual involved......

Like I said these volunteers are special, self-less people..and heroes that care!!

Truss, I know you're a big fan of 'primary evidence' and how important it is in ascertaining the truth; so seeing as you didn't see any of the primary evidence that was used in the trial for the prosecution, maybe you need to accept that you're in no position to say what 'holes' were or weren't a part of that case, and keep quiet on the subject.

I think people can do without the 'if it happened to you' moral high ground, too. I'm not going to go in to details as that's not what 606v2 is for, but I've lost a loved one very close to me through alcoholism which came as a result of crippling mental demons, that had existed since he was a child but were never diagnosed until he was in his forties, by which time the damage was done. Did I feel sorry for him and angry that he hadn't been helped? Yes, massively so, as did others. But would I (and the others) have felt so sympathetic if he'd have been given a second and third chance of turning his life around, had the financial means to distance himself from the bad crowd he'd got himself involved with, been convicted of a serious sexual offence and used his wife / significant other as a punch bag? No, of course not.

Two wrongs don't make a right, as the old saying goes. Tyson, regardless of what had gone before, ultimately showed that he was no better than all of those people you think should take the blame for his shortcomings.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Come on that court case had more holes in it than a golf course CHRIS....

As for Coxy and the rest...maybe if one of their family members was to go down the road of some of these people.. their opinions might change.

Easy to play the i'm a hard man card in cold blood....

I'm afraid.. like chucking a pebble in a pond.. alcoholism affects everybody close to the individual involved......

Like I said these volunteers are special, self-less people..and heroes that care!!

What becoming heavyweight champion and earning million. Tyson has done many wrong things, he is very lucky to be in the position that he is now.

Maybe Victor Ortiz should commit some crime and hurt a lot of people then Truss can feel sorry for him too.

Truss find your tone a little condesending. You do not know jack about any of our personal circumstances or whether we have suffered loss in our lifes. Nor do you know if any of us have had to deal personally with substance abuse or whether those close to us have. I personally am not going to go into whether I have or havent' because it is none of your or anyone elses business.

However to assume you have a greater insight into this and all our views are made from comfortable ivory towers where we have never had to encounter anything so unpleasant is patronising in the extreme.

No but I can gain information from the standard and contents of peoples posts....I mean on another thread Windy knows everything about Corbett without meeting him....

You lack compassion... it's not a left field observation!!!

For me being condescending is the lesser of two evils...

Not that I'm condescending ..

Just probably have more Life experience than most...

I left my comfort zone at 19 years of age.....Some people never leave it and because they are spoilt lack compassion for others.....

Just probably have more Life experience than most...
__________________________________________________

Again Truss a statement that is absolutely pure speculation, you have no way of knowing what people have experienced and what has gone to form their world view. Am not going to go through what I have been through to make me the person I am because as I said previously it is personal and sod all business of yours but suffice to say like most people my age my life has not been a bed of roses, as I'm sure is the case for most on here.

To assume otherwise just because I don't appear to have as sympathetic view of Mike as you do is insulting in the extreme.

You have no way of knowing what alcoholics/addicts go through and the situations that caused their plight yet you write them off..

Physician heal thyself...