That really grinds my gears thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

People who post meaningless posts just to steal the thread split for the Morning Tea Society.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Transphobia is a terrible thing......Shines a dark light in to the heart of those that practice..

Proud to practice Social liberalism..Freedom of the individual...

[the-goon2]

There is no such thing as trans.

You are male or female for your entire life.

A man who mutilates his genitals, takes hormones etc, is still male. Instead of trying to help this poor individual accept himself for who his is (a man, likely a gay man, nothing wrong with that), and live a normal life, we feed his delusion, and make him a patient for life, a cash cow for these vultures and butchers in the "gender affirmation" industry.

Those are the victims of this cult.

It's actually sick.

And now we push this on kids. It really is vile, and blight on our society.

On top of all that, you have the "trans" ppl who are really transvestites and do it as a fetish, and again, for some, their fetish extends to subjecting this to kids.

These are the groomers.

Vile.

[Duty281]

Transphobia is a terrible thing......Shines a dark light in to the heart of those that practice..

Proud to practice Social liberalism..Freedom of the individual...

And who exactly is transphobic? Rowling? If so, let's see the evidence.

And what exactly is transphobia? I've been called transphobic for believing that participation in sport should be separated along lines of biology. If someone is born biologically male, then they should compete in the open/men's category of sport, even if they currently identify as female. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

What about with regards to dating/sex? I've also been called transphobic for not being interested in biological women who identify as men. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

[Galted]

Transphobia is a terrible thing......Shines a dark light in to the heart of those that practice..

Proud to practice Social liberalism..Freedom of the individual...

And who exactly is transphobic? Rowling? If so, let's see the evidence.

And what exactly is transphobia? I've been called transphobic for believing that participation in sport should be separated along lines of biology. If someone is born biologically male, then they should compete in the open/men's category of sport, even if they currently identify as female. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

What about with regards to dating/sex? I've also been called transphobic for not being interested in biological women who identify as men. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

Of course people born male should be allowed to compete against people who menstruate.  If they didn't we wouldn't have such comedy excellence as this:

[JuliusHMarx]

Transphobia is a terrible thing......Shines a dark light in to the heart of those that practice..

Proud to practice Social liberalism..Freedom of the individual...

And who exactly is transphobic? Rowling? If so, let's see the evidence.

And what exactly is transphobia? I've been called transphobic for believing that participation in sport should be separated along lines of biology. If someone is born biologically male, then they should compete in the open/men's category of sport, even if they currently identify as female. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

What about with regards to dating/sex? I've also been called transphobic for not being interested in biological women who identify as men. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

Surely transphobia is prejudice against a person simply because they are transgender, rather than treating them as an individual.
If you're upset (if) simply because you are wrongly labelled transphobic, imagine how much worse it must be for a transgender person to be the victim of transphobia.

[the-goon2]

Transphobia is a terrible thing......Shines a dark light in to the heart of those that practice..

Proud to practice Social liberalism..Freedom of the individual...

And who exactly is transphobic? Rowling? If so, let's see the evidence.

And what exactly is transphobia? I've been called transphobic for believing that participation in sport should be separated along lines of biology. If someone is born biologically male, then they should compete in the open/men's category of sport, even if they currently identify as female. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

What about with regards to dating/sex? I've also been called transphobic for not being interested in biological women who identify as men. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

Surely transphobia is prejudice against a person simply because they are transgender, rather than treating them as an individual.
If you're upset (if) simply because you are wrongly labelled transphobic, imagine how much worse it must be for a transgender person to be the victim of transphobia.

Yeah, Duty! Your experience doesn't matter. There are ppl higher up the victim hierarchy to worry about.

[JuliusHMarx]

I'm not denying Duty's trauma - it's obvious for everyone to see. He has my sympathy and I hope he gets the support and help he needs.

[Samo]

A 5 second Google search provides plenty arguments that she is a transphobe, whether or not you agree with those arguments is purely subjective.

I dont think its transphobic to think someone who transistions MTF after puberty (and certainly later in life) shouldnt be partaking in womens sport. Least of all not contact or combat sports. However I dont think its as black and white as competeing based on sex assigned at birth. Intersex people exist, and there are people who have all the physical characteristics of being female but have XY chromosones. They’ll live their entire life in the body of a female but are technically male. Now these cases are extremely rare, but they exist all the same.

The idea of not being attracted to trans women making you a transphobe is absurd. People cannot control who their are sexually attracted to, and I think most trans people would agree. Theres always going to be the fringe lunatics who scream transphobia at everything though.

[mountain man]

I can't be arsed to wade through multiple articles but as far as I am aware Rowlings whole issue was based on fact she claims there are two sexes, male and female. And I would say ask 99.9% of population anywhere and they would agree.
If you are born as a biological male but you then identify or even chemically/surgically transition to "a female/woman" you are still unquestionably biologically a male. That's it. That cannot be argued with. It is a fact. You might identify as a woman, have a piece of paper that says you are but really you're not.

I believe that is the so called crime Rowling committed and as it happens I agree with her.

[Samo]

Yeah. Its often easier to just stick to your guns rather than spend 5 minutes reading a couple of articles.

[mountain man]

Yep. I stick to my assertion that if you are born a male you are a male and nothing you do will change that.

No need to read anything.

If you want to identify as a woman, carry on. No argument from me and you have every right to do so. Just don't expect me to think you are female.

[TRUSSMAN66]

I see Lance Armstrong is wading in to the Trans athletes in Cycling is cheating argument....

Good to see such an arbiter on the subject of fairness offering his 'humble' opinion on the subject......In other news Bernie Madoff writes that investors aren't treated with respect these days...

[Duty281]

Transphobia is a terrible thing......Shines a dark light in to the heart of those that practice..

Proud to practice Social liberalism..Freedom of the individual...

And who exactly is transphobic? Rowling? If so, let's see the evidence.

And what exactly is transphobia? I've been called transphobic for believing that participation in sport should be separated along lines of biology. If someone is born biologically male, then they should compete in the open/men's category of sport, even if they currently identify as female. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

What about with regards to dating/sex? I've also been called transphobic for not being interested in biological women who identify as men. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

Surely transphobia is prejudice against a person simply because they are transgender, rather than treating them as an individual.
If you're upset (if) simply because you are wrongly labelled transphobic, imagine how much worse it must be for a transgender person to be the victim of transphobia.

But that's my question. Have I been wrongly labelled transphobic for these two examples? Or are these examples of actual transphobia?

[mountain man]

I see Lance Armstrong is wading in to the Trans athletes in Cycling is cheating argument....

Good to see such an arbiter on the subject of fairness offering his 'humble' opinion on the subject......In other news Bernie Madoff writes that investors aren't treated with respect these days...

The fact that Armstrong cheated(as did just about every cyclist in that era and before) doesn't negate his right to comment where you agree with his argument or not.
I'm definitely not an Armstrong apologist but he like everyone is entitled to a view.
Given his fame/infamy of course his views get read a lot more than most.

[JuliusHMarx]

Transphobia is a terrible thing......Shines a dark light in to the heart of those that practice..

Proud to practice Social liberalism..Freedom of the individual...

And who exactly is transphobic? Rowling? If so, let's see the evidence.

And what exactly is transphobia? I've been called transphobic for believing that participation in sport should be separated along lines of biology. If someone is born biologically male, then they should compete in the open/men's category of sport, even if they currently identify as female. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

What about with regards to dating/sex? I've also been called transphobic for not being interested in biological women who identify as men. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

Surely transphobia is prejudice against a person simply because they are transgender, rather than treating them as an individual.
If you're upset (if) simply because you are wrongly labelled transphobic, imagine how much worse it must be for a transgender person to be the victim of transphobia.

But that's my question. Have I been wrongly labelled transphobic for these two examples? Or are these examples of actual transphobia?

In some ways that is a matter of opinion. Some people don't consider the using the word 'puff' (as in "Tino is a right puff") to be homophobic, whereas some people do.
Personally I think you were wrongly labelled in both cases, although perhaps it depends on the sport for the former (see Renee Richards*).
Activists may disagree, but activists of any sort are usually a minority who often don't represent the majority of people they claim to represent. Then activists with the opposite agenda, who are just as bad, try to portray those activists as representative of the majority.
For example, will trans people rot in Hell? Some religious fundamentalists say they will, but we shouldn't judge a religion by its fundamentalists.

*Edit - worth pointing out that Richards herself (or 'himself' according to some) has said that had she transitioned earlier in life, she would have had an unfair advantage.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Always good to see Julius following Super and Galted on to a thread....

Is d'artagnan coming next ???...

[Pal Joey]

Transphobia is a terrible thing......Shines a dark light in to the heart of those that practice..

Proud to practice Social liberalism..Freedom of the individual...

And who exactly is transphobic? Rowling? If so, let's see the evidence.

And what exactly is transphobia? I've been called transphobic for believing that participation in sport should be separated along lines of biology. If someone is born biologically male, then they should compete in the open/men's category of sport, even if they currently identify as female. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

What about with regards to dating/sex? I've also been called transphobic for not being interested in biological women who identify as men. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

Surely transphobia is prejudice against a person simply because they are transgender, rather than treating them as an individual.
If you're upset (if) simply because you are wrongly labelled transphobic, imagine how much worse it must be for a transgender person to be the victim of transphobia.

But that's my question. Have I been wrongly labelled transphobic for these two examples? Or are these examples of actual transphobia?

I'd say no for both instances.

The first is simply your opinion which everybody is entitled to. You are a rational person, Duty, and certainly weren't expressing any phobic intent.

For the second, that's just simply you exercising your preference. It's not as if you have 'anything against' biological women identifying as men.

You shouldn't feel guilty, ashamed or labelled transphobic for either of those scenarios... nor should you have to explain 'why' to anyone.

[Galted]

Always good to see Julius following Super and Galted on to a thread....

Is d'artagnan coming next ???...

Pipe down, Liz, or we might have to get Duty to school you again.

[Samo]

At the end of the day most trans people just want to be able to live their lives in peace with dignity and respect. Of course there are bad trans people, and of course there are people who exploit it for nefarious reasons (like getting into a womens prison for example). All most of them ask is that you try your best to use their preferred pronouns. It doesnt hurt you in anyway, but even if you dont agree its a small concession that could make their day better.

[mountain man]

At the end of the day most trans people just want to be able to live their lives in peace with dignity and respect.  Of course there are bad trans people, and of course there are people who exploit it for nefarious reasons (like getting into a womens prison for example).  All most of them ask is that you try your best to use their preferred pronouns.  It doesnt hurt you in anyway, but even if you dont agree its a small concession that could make their day better.

No-one mentioned pronouns. My point is biological, in that a person born male is a male regardless of how they may identify or want to be addressed. That's the issue, it's those that "cancel" others for daring to suggest that a born male is not in fact a female just because they say they are.

[JuliusHMarx]

At the end of the day most trans people just want to be able to live their lives in peace with dignity and respect.  Of course there are bad trans people, and of course there are people who exploit it for nefarious reasons (like getting into a womens prison for example).  All most of them ask is that you try your best to use their preferred pronouns.  It doesnt hurt you in anyway, but even if you dont agree its a small concession that could make their day better.

No-one mentioned pronouns. My point is biological, in that a person born male is a male regardless of how they may identify or want to be addressed. That's the issue, it's those that "cancel" others for daring to suggest that a born male is not in fact a female just because they say they are.

Surely it's OK to mention things that haven't been mentioned previously?
Do you accept that gender and sex are not the same thing and that someone who is biologically of the male sex can be of the female gender?

[mountain man]

Well up until fairly recently it's fair to say most if not all accepeted sex and gender as same. It's only very recently in human history that people come to say they are different. Hence the term transgender.

Apparently there are now 57 genders???

However, the point is some who are born male but identify as female want to be totally accepted that they are women/female exactly the same as a born female and that is something I do not accept.

As I've said many times, if you want to identify as a man or woman or piece of garden furniture fill your boots but don't expect me to say or think you are something you are not.

[JuliusHMarx]

Just because something is recent, doesn't mean it's wrong. According to Wikipedia - "Roman emperor Elagabalus (d. 222 AD) preferred to be called a lady (rather than a lord) and sought sex reassignment surgery."

I'm no expert, but I think most simply want you to accept that they are of the female gender, not of the female sex.

Interesting article here about the problems labelling everyone as either male or female - https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2020/06/15/the-myth-of-biological-sex/

[mountain man]

Well fine and being a polite person I'm not going to make a scene in public and as I say if it doesn't affect me I have no issue but I can't pretend to say or think something I don't believe in.
This all smacks of Emperors new clothes.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Certainly truth to the argument that Trans people like Immigrants are being used to distract from the awful state the Country is.....The Economy seems to be in charge of this Govt rather than the other way around....

GB News are either slating Trans people or Immigrants when they get bored of slapping Harry and Meghan around...

Disabled folk and those claiming other benefits are being given a rest at the moment.

[mountain man]

No the truth is the trans lobby are their own worst enemies. Most people accept and just carry on but the extreme trans lot want everyone to be in line with their views hence they refuse to allow reasoned debate in universities etc.

This has nothing to do with state of country, you are just using that as a massive deflection.

[Samo]

Just because something is recent, doesn't mean it's wrong. According to Wikipedia - "Roman emperor Elagabalus (d. 222 AD) preferred to be called a lady (rather than a lord) and sought sex reassignment surgery."

I'm no expert, but I think most simply want you to accept that they are of the female gender, not of the female sex.

Interesting article here about the problems labelling everyone as either male or female - https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2020/06/15/the-myth-of-biological-sex/

Waste of time, she doesnt read articles you show her.

[mountain man]

Is that a response to me?

I'll assume you are trying to be funny or something.

Oh well, I try and have a sensible and reasoned discussion but apparently that's not possible.

I'll state again I have no issue with how someone wants to be known or identify but it seems some can't read and comprehend.

[Duty281]

Transphobia is a terrible thing......Shines a dark light in to the heart of those that practice..

Proud to practice Social liberalism..Freedom of the individual...

And who exactly is transphobic? Rowling? If so, let's see the evidence.

And what exactly is transphobia? I've been called transphobic for believing that participation in sport should be separated along lines of biology. If someone is born biologically male, then they should compete in the open/men's category of sport, even if they currently identify as female. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

What about with regards to dating/sex? I've also been called transphobic for not being interested in biological women who identify as men. Is this a transphobic belief? And if so, why?

Surely transphobia is prejudice against a person simply because they are transgender, rather than treating them as an individual.
If you're upset (if) simply because you are wrongly labelled transphobic, imagine how much worse it must be for a transgender person to be the victim of transphobia.

But that's my question. Have I been wrongly labelled transphobic for these two examples? Or are these examples of actual transphobia?

In some ways that is a matter of opinion. Some people don't consider the using the word 'puff' (as in "Tino is a right puff") to be homophobic, whereas some people do.
Personally I think you were wrongly labelled in both cases, although perhaps it depends on the sport for the former (see Renee Richards*).
Activists may disagree, but activists of any sort are usually a minority who often don't represent the majority of people they claim to represent. Then activists with the opposite agenda, who are just as bad, try to portray those activists as representative of the majority.
For example, will trans people rot in Hell? Some religious fundamentalists say they will, but we shouldn't judge a religion by its fundamentalists.

*Edit - worth pointing out that Richards herself (or 'himself' according to some) has said that had she transitioned earlier in life, she would have had an unfair advantage.

It is a matter of opinion, but which opinion should we listen to? It appears society wants to listen to the more radical fringe, hence why JK Rowling has been labelled a transphobe and a bigot (even though people such as Truss can't provide evidence of this).

Will trans people rot in Hell? Well, no, because hell doesn't exist (unless you mean Runcorn). That's why Israel Folau's remarks didn't bother me.

[Duty281]

At the end of the day most trans people just want to be able to live their lives in peace with dignity and respect.  Of course there are bad trans people, and of course there are people who exploit it for nefarious reasons (like getting into a womens prison for example).  All most of them ask is that you try your best to use their preferred pronouns.  It doesnt hurt you in anyway, but even if you dont agree its a small concession that could make their day better.

The nefarious reasons you point to, particularly Isla Bryson's case, are exactly the point that JK Rowling was making.

I don't think many people have an issue with pronouns, it's the point of where trans people fit in with regards to things such as the judicial system and sport and women-only crisis centres. The key question being: Does their identity trump their biology?

For instance, British Cycling recently instituted a ban on transgender women competing in the female category. This led to Emily Bridges, the highest-profile trans woman cyclist, going on an unhinged rant where, among other things, she claimed that British Cycling was furthering a genocide against trans people.

[Samo]

At the end of the day most trans people just want to be able to live their lives in peace with dignity and respect.  Of course there are bad trans people, and of course there are people who exploit it for nefarious reasons (like getting into a womens prison for example).  All most of them ask is that you try your best to use their preferred pronouns.  It doesnt hurt you in anyway, but even if you dont agree its a small concession that could make their day better.

The nefarious reasons you point to, particularly Isla Bryson's case, are exactly the point that JK Rowling was making.

I don't think many people have an issue with pronouns, it's the point of where trans people fit in with regards to things such as the judicial system and sport and women-only crisis centres. The key question being: Does their identity trump their biology?

For instance, British Cycling recently instituted a ban on transgender women competing in the female category. This led to Emily Bridges, the highest-profile trans woman cyclist, going on an unhinged rant where, among other things, she claimed that British Cycling was furthering a genocide against trans people.

In regards to the judicial system I think it has to be on a case by case basis. Maybe judged on the severity of the crime or when they transitioned in relation to when the crime was committed? Theres a lot of grey area.

I dont have a problem with banning trans women from womens sport, especially if they transitioned after puberty. All to often we've seen MTF trangenders be completely average at their sport as men but completely dominate when they transition. Personally I would have an Open category and a Womens catagory, but I know some men unhappy with the idea of not having a defined Mens category. You're never going to please everyone in a million years.

[mountain man]

At the end of the day most trans people just want to be able to live their lives in peace with dignity and respect.  Of course there are bad trans people, and of course there are people who exploit it for nefarious reasons (like getting into a womens prison for example).  All most of them ask is that you try your best to use their preferred pronouns.  It doesnt hurt you in anyway, but even if you dont agree its a small concession that could make their day better.

The nefarious reasons you point to, particularly Isla Bryson's case, are exactly the point that JK Rowling was making.

I don't think many people have an issue with pronouns, it's the point of where trans people fit in with regards to things such as the judicial system and sport and women-only crisis centres. The key question being: Does their identity trump their biology?

For instance, British Cycling recently instituted a ban on transgender women competing in the female category. This led to Emily Bridges, the highest-profile trans woman cyclist, going on an unhinged rant where, among other things, she claimed that British Cycling was furthering a genocide against trans people.

Think you're wasting your time he/she/they along with the rest of the 57 don't want to read it.

[mountain man]

Extract from Emily Bridges statement, sort of sums up the thinking of some of trans lobby:

"This is a violent act," she said. "British Cycling are supporting this, they are furthering a genocide against us. Bans from sport is how it starts, look at what is going on in America. It starts with sports bans, then youth and general healthcare and then bans from public life through bathroom bans. Just look at the situation, and who is on your side. When literal Nazis, conspiracy theorists and those who want our eradication are on your side, surely that should give you pause?"

So anyone disagreeing with allowing male born athletes to compete against biological women are committing genocide and are Nazis and conspiracy theorists.
Nothing like having a reasoned and well thought out viewpoint and that is certainly nothing like it.

[Galted]

To be fair to Emily, that does sound like woman's logic.

[JuliusHMarx]

At the end of the day most trans people just want to be able to live their lives in peace with dignity and respect.  Of course there are bad trans people, and of course there are people who exploit it for nefarious reasons (like getting into a womens prison for example).  All most of them ask is that you try your best to use their preferred pronouns.  It doesnt hurt you in anyway, but even if you dont agree its a small concession that could make their day better.

The nefarious reasons you point to, particularly Isla Bryson's case, are exactly the point that JK Rowling was making.

I don't think many people have an issue with pronouns, it's the point of where trans people fit in with regards to things such as the judicial system and sport and women-only crisis centres. The key question being: Does their identity trump their biology?

For instance, British Cycling recently instituted a ban on transgender women competing in the female category. This led to Emily Bridges, the highest-profile trans woman cyclist, going on an unhinged rant where, among other things, she claimed that British Cycling was furthering a genocide against trans people.

A minority of people do have issues with pronouns (I get the impression Mountain Man has an issue with them) but equally Emily Bridges is also in a minority.

If a trans woman is being abused by her male partner, what suitable crisis centres are available for them? Perhaps we need new crisis centres, as we need new sporting categories.

[JuliusHMarx]

To be fair to Emily, that does sound like woman's logic.

Racist.

[Galted]

To be fair to Emily, that does sound like woman's logic.

Racist.

It's a bit hurtful that you're unwilling to see past my racism to find out what an unapologetic chauvinist and transphobe I am.

[mountain man]

A minority of people do have issues with pronouns (I get the impression Mountain Man has an issue with them) but equally Emily Bridges is also in a minority.

So you "get impression" despite me stating several times I actually don't have an issue?

I'm not sure how else I can explain I don't. Maybe I should link up a video of me expressing it through dance but I sort of assuming as this is a written forum that would suffice.

[JuliusHMarx]

A minority of people do have issues with pronouns (I get the impression Mountain Man has an issue with them) but equally Emily Bridges is also in a minority.

So you "get impression" despite me stating several times I actually don't have an issue?

I'm not sure how else I can explain I don't. Maybe I should  link up a video of me expressing it through dance but I sort of assuming as this is a written forum that would suffice.

You did say "As I've said many times, if you want to identify as a man or woman or piece of garden furniture fill your boots but don't expect me to say or think you are something you are not."

This gave the impression that you don't mind people using whatever pronouns they want, but that you yourself would not to refer to them by those pronouns.

However, I stand corrected and accept you would use, for example, 'they' if someone preferred that.

[mountain man]

I'll spell it out then (again).

If a person is born biologically male but then decide to identify as a woman as far as I am concerned they are not a woman as my definition of a woman is an adult human female. Note this definition has always been the universially accepted definition.

If said person wants to think/act/dress as a woman fine. If they want to be addressed as her or she or they, no problem.

However, if asked by said person "am I a woman" I would have to say no because they would not be because by definition they cannot be.

[mountain man]

Here's a question. Scenario is you are walking down street and you are assaulted by someone. Police arrive and ask you for a description. It was broad daylight and you got a clear look at assailant.
Would you say it was a man/woman as part of description?

[JuliusHMarx]

Here's a question. Scenario is you are walking down street and you are assaulted by someone. Police arrive and ask you for a description. It was broad daylight and you got a clear look at assailant.
Would you say it was a man/woman as part of description?

Yes, most likely, based on appearance.

[mountain man]

Exactly. But wouldn't that be presumptuous? Or offensive?

To some it would which is my entire point about this thread, the ridiculousness of it.

[JuliusHMarx]

Isn't your point that if you were assaulted by someone who looked like a woman, you wouldn't be able to tell the police they were a woman, in case they were a trans woman - so you'd have to say "They only looked like a woman, they might have been a trans woman i.e. a man."

[mountain man]

No I'd say it was a man/woman as applicable.
I'm pretty sure I can identify each sex and I've no qualms about saying "the assailant was a man". If said assailant identified as a woman how could I know?

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve, seems you're almost trying to be awkward. I might be wrong as of course it's hard to get nuance on a forum.

[JuliusHMarx]

No I'd say it was a man/woman as applicable.
I'm pretty sure I can identify each sex and I've no qualms about saying "the assailant was a man". If said assailant identified as a woman how could I know?

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve, seems you're almost trying to be awkward. I might be wrong as of course it's hard to get nuance on a forum.

I've been told I'm incapable of nuance, so it can't be that.
All I'm saying is (and it's not that important) - you could say it was a woman, but they might be a biological male (if the assailant was a trans woman), in which case you would describe them as a woman, but define them as a man.

[the-goon2]

At the end of the day most trans people just want to be able to live their lives in peace with dignity and respect.  Of course there are bad trans people, and of course there are people who exploit it for nefarious reasons (like getting into a womens prison for example).  All most of them ask is that you try your best to use their preferred pronouns.  It doesnt hurt you in anyway, but even if you dont agree its a small concession that could make their day better.

The nefarious reasons you point to, particularly Isla Bryson's case, are exactly the point that JK Rowling was making.

I don't think many people have an issue with pronouns, it's the point of where trans people fit in with regards to things such as the judicial system and sport and women-only crisis centres. The key question being: Does their identity trump their biology?

For instance, British Cycling recently instituted a ban on transgender women competing in the female category. This led to Emily Bridges, the highest-profile trans woman cyclist, going on an unhinged rant where, among other things, she claimed that British Cycling was furthering a genocide against trans people.

A minority of people do have issues with pronouns (I get the impression Mountain Man has an issue with them) but equally Emily Bridges is also in a minority.

If a trans woman is being abused by her male partner, what suitable crisis centres are available for them? Perhaps we need new crisis centres, as we need new sporting categories.

I think we should have a men's crisis centre. 1/3 of domestic abuse victims are men, there is no support for them. Trans women (i.e. men) can go there too.

[the-goon2]

Certainly truth to the argument that Trans people like Immigrants are being used to distract from the awful state the Country is.....The Economy seems to be in charge of this Govt rather than the other way around....

GB News are either slating Trans people or Immigrants when they get bored of slapping Harry and Meghan around...

Disabled folk and those claiming other benefits are being given a rest at the moment.

No one cared about the trans's until they started grooming kids.

https://twitter.com/TimcastNews/status/1672410287251529735?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1672410287251529735%7Ctwgr%5E4749785a46064e65175257287081b23d6268247b%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-12230639%2FWere-coming-children-Topless-activists-drag-queens-spark-outrage-NYC-Pride.html

[TRUSSMAN66]

Certainly truth to the argument that Trans people like Immigrants are being used to distract from the awful state the Country is.....The Economy seems to be in charge of this Govt rather than the other way around....

GB News are either slating Trans people or Immigrants when they get bored of slapping Harry and Meghan around...

Disabled folk and those claiming other benefits are being given a rest at the moment.

No one cared about the trans's until they started grooming kids.

https://twitter.com/TimcastNews/status/1672410287251529735?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1672410287251529735%7Ctwgr%5E4749785a46064e65175257287081b23d6268247b%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-12230639%2FWere-coming-children-Topless-activists-drag-queens-spark-outrage-NYC-Pride.html

Someone else can bite.....I can't be a**ed..

[superflyweight]

Certainly truth to the argument that Trans people like Immigrants are being used to distract from the awful state the Country is.....The Economy seems to be in charge of this Govt rather than the other way around....

GB News are either slating Trans people or Immigrants when they get bored of slapping Harry and Meghan around...

Disabled folk and those claiming other benefits are being given a rest at the moment.

No one cared about the trans's until they started grooming kids.

https://twitter.com/TimcastNews/status/1672410287251529735?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1672410287251529735%7Ctwgr%5E4749785a46064e65175257287081b23d6268247b%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-12230639%2FWere-coming-children-Topless-activists-drag-queens-spark-outrage-NYC-Pride.html

Someone else can bite.....I can't be a**ed..

As noted by Samo above, there's a balanced and nuanced discussion to be had about Trans issues, but too often they descend into hysteria and bigotry coming from both sides. Articles like this are a huge part of the problem and are intended only to fire up people on both sides of the debate.

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