Most overrated current international player.

First topic message reminder :

Just a bit of fun. Who do people think is the most overrated player currently. For me it's Will Skelton. Just don't see what he adds to the aussie team.

eirebilly wrote:Aahh Pooly, ye know that Best is the best in the NH by a country mile now g'way and reassess that poor opinion of yours

Best in Ireland without question but he has few challengers to be fair.

rodders wrote:Best is one of the most underrated players in world rugby, he gets very little plaudits outside Ulster that I can see.

Outside of Ulster Rodders? I am constantly referring to him as our greatest ever hooker and key player for Ireland. Id say most Irish fans from the three provinces of Ireland, Ulster, Leinster and Connacht know how good he is.

Better than Wood? Know it's hard to judge on these different eras but I always rated wood really highly. And best is about 3rd or 4th hooked in the nh.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Better than Wood? Know it's hard to judge on these different eras but I always rated wood really highly. And best is about 3rd or 4th hooked in the nh.

Yeah better than Wood. Wood was a real talisman and exciting player however, if people think Best's throwing is bad I'd say Woods was worse. I think with Wood he was a great all round rugby player but not necessarily the greatest ever hooker as he wasnt actually exceptional at doing the things you would expect from a hooker unlike Best. Wood had great hands could kick and pass and was amazing in the loose.

On form Best is unquestionably the best hooker in the NH right now, possibly the best captain too.

A long way from unquestionably. Hartley and George I'd say are both better.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Better than Wood? Know it's hard to judge on these different eras but I always rated wood really highly. And best is about 3rd or 4th hooked in the nh.

I think there is a good argument that he has surpassed Wood, yes. Wood was a freak with the ball in hand and a talismatic leader but Bests all round game has been phenomenal over the past 3-4 seasons and he just gets better with age.

His line out throwing, once seen as a weakness is now one of the most consistent in the NH, certainly better than Wood's. He's always been known as a top scrummager and his work around at the breakdown is better than most backrowers.

He has great hands for a front row and scores tries. As a leader he's grown after taking up the poisoned chalice of following O'Connell and O'Driscoll for Ireland and previously Muller at Ulster.

A lot of people, including myself seen his am a stop gap until O'Mahoney was fit but I think he's won a lot of folks over who doubted him but obviously not everyone.

I personally wouldn't swap him for anyone, even Moore or Coles, certainly not Hartley.

On form Best is unquestionably the best hooker in the NH right now, possibly the best captain too.

He isn't.

Guirado, Hartley and George are better players at least.

In the SH you have Coles, Moore and Strauss who are better players also. I'd throw in BdP when he finally gets round to playing again.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

On form Best is unquestionably the best hooker in the NH right now, possibly the best captain too.

He isn't.

Guirado, Hartley and George are better players at least.

In the SH you have Coles, Moore and Strauss who are better players also. I'd throw in BdP when he finally gets round to playing again.

There you go, thanks for proving my point .

No 7&1/2 wrote:A long way from unquestionably.  Hartley and George I'd say are both better.

Bold claim, George doesn't even play regular international rugby. His test match record isnt great either.

Hartley is too much of a hit head to make the top 4. In fairness he has had a good year for England but he is definitely over rated too and hasn't exactly got off to a great start in 2017.

I would pick Best ahead of them both any day.

I wouldnt have strauss and certainly not Moore ahead of best.

Unquestionably though is silly. Best will go with the Lions, Hartley must be in pole position but being pushed by George hard. You ain't seen much rugby last year if you haven't noticed George is a regular international with a 100% record.

All opinions end of the day, nobody is more right.

You obviously rate him higher as he's your player. Equally I wouldn't swap him for either of our options and Guirado is the pick for me (although him and George are both the best in the NH).

rodders wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

On form Best is unquestionably the best hooker in the NH right now, possibly the best captain too.

He isn't.

Guirado, Hartley and George are better players at least.

In the SH you have Coles, Moore and Strauss who are better players also. I'd throw in BdP when he finally gets round to playing again.

There you go, thanks for proving my point   .

Moore and Strauss better players? That's a good one. Sgt Pooley have you watched much rugby in 2016?

Strauss and Moore didnt exactly have great years. Both captained their sides to their worst years in a long time. Neither played particularly well.

Best on the other hand became only the second captain to win tests against all three SANZAR sides.

No need to get touchy because an opinion differs to yours Guns.

It seems like you're confusing team performances with individual players. Both Moore and Strauss didn't have stellar seasons, but both are better than Best imo.

I just don't think Best is as good as the Irish obviously do, no harm in that.

He was dog poop on the last Lions tour.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Unquestionably though is silly. Best will go with the Lions, Hartley must be in pole position but being pushed by George hard. You ain't seen much rugby last year if you haven't noticed George is a regular international with a 100% record.

He is hardly a regular international. He has 10 caps? He lost on debut and started out for England in the world cup when they limped out of the group stages. In 2016 he has won all his games but as a sub. How does that even put him in the conversation?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No need to get touchy because an opinion differs to yours Guns.

It seems like you're confusing team performances with individual players. Both Moore and Strauss didn't have stellar seasons, but both are better than Best imo.

I just don't think Best is as good as the Irish obviously do, no harm in that.

Not touchy, you are making me laugh with daft claims.

It puts him in the conversation if you've watched much of him play. Sorry didn't realise that playing for England all year didn't make him a regular. I can accept at a stretch that some would honestly and unbiased consider best the 2nd best hooker in the world but unquestionably while making errors in talking down other players...

This thread does appear to confirm that Best is overrated by some.

Good player, but in the 2nd tier of NH hookers (4th best in NH?).

Not daft Guns, just a different opinion to yourself. If you cant debate like an adult, perhaps you should not contribute to this one? Youre obviously getting a little upset.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:A long way from unquestionably.  Hartley and George I'd say are both better.

Bold claim, George doesn't even play regular international rugby. His test match record isnt great either.

Hartley is too much of a hit head to make the top 4. In fairness he has had a good year for England but he is definitely over rated too and hasn't exactly got off to a great start in 2017.

I would pick Best ahead of them both any day.

You missed an 's' there Guns.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Not daft Guns, just a different opinion to yourself. If you cant debate like an adult, perhaps you should not contribute to this one? Youre obviously getting a little upset.

It is daft. I cant take you seriously if you think Moore and Strauss are better than Best. Its laughable to me. You seem to be winding yourself up, I'm perfectly calm.

I doubt even the most ardent Bok or Aussie fans would claim those two have been better than Best in '16. Although you never know.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It puts him in the conversation if you've watched much of him play. Sorry didn't realise that playing for England all year didn't make him a regular. I can accept at a stretch that some would honestly and unbiased consider best the 2nd best hooker in the world but unquestionably while making errors in talking down other players...

Big difference in playing sub all year and starting every game. George is a bit part player right now.

Moore is dog tucker

Most hooker are bit part players. Few play 100% of all games especially when you have 2 of the very best in the same squad.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Not daft Guns, just a different opinion to yourself. If you cant debate like an adult, perhaps you should not contribute to this one? Youre obviously getting a little upset.

It is daft. I cant take you seriously if you think Moore and Strauss are better than Best. Its laughable to me. You seem to be winding yourself up, I'm perfectly calm.

I doubt even the most ardent Bok or Aussie fans would claim those two have been better than Best in '16. Although you never know.

Sounds like it.....

- have you watched any rugby in 2016
- daft comments
- my comments are laughable

Outstanding points. I think I'm done with this discussion, We'll maybe try again when you can debate without losing your temper.

Has anybody outside of Ireland suggested Best in the top NH hooker? It would be good to see someone less biased back him up.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Has anybody outside of Ireland suggested Best in the top NH hooker? It would be good to see someone less biased back him up.

So the Irish are wrong because hes Irish?

Intelligent debate there

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Has anybody outside of Ireland suggested Best in the top NH hooker?

Does Warren Gatland or Andy Farrell count?

They've said that? Puts another nail in gatland coffin for me!

Calm down Pooley you are getting yourself all worked up over nothing.

Ian McGeechan thinks Best was the Best hooker in the Nov series making him the best on form:

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/ian-mcgeechans-honesty-shows-how-hard-it-will-be-for-rory-best-to-be-lions-captain/105446

Andy Farrell thinks he should be Lions captain:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3972534/Andy-Farrell-backs-Ireland-captain-Rory-Best-lead-British-Irish-Lions-New-Zealand.html

Walesonline back Best to lead the Lions:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/ireland-hooker-rory-best-emerging-12303863

Gatland has had a lot of good things to say about best lately:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/12/10/warren-gatland-hails-rory-best-lions-blow-dylan-hartley/
http://www.newstalk.com/Warren-Gatland-praises-Rory-Bests-leadership-abilities

Dewi Morris thinks Best should captain the Lions:

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/10710935/scott-quinnell-dewi-morris-and-nick-easter-give-their-predictions-for-2017

He has plenty of backers outside Ireland.

Not bad for the 3rd choice lion!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Has anybody outside of Ireland suggested Best in the top NH hooker?

In a way, you have to see the Provinces in Ireland as separate countries. We all love to hate the other provinces teams so when fans from other provinces like another provinces player its like another country rating them, we are a bit special like that

Best, in my opinion, is currently the best in the NH. This is purely down to his all-round game management and leadership that he has brought to Ireland. Like rodders, I saw him only as a stop gap captain until POM got fit but he has proven to be an exceptional leader on the field and has inspired his team mates by leading from the front. I would not remove the captaincy from him.

Hartley has had a very good year as well and has grown under Jones as a captain as well but due to all his banning's through the years, referee's focus on him a lot more and he is penalised quicker than others (not right but understandable).

George has the potential but I feel he would need an extended run at International level.

How long modes a player need at international level to be judged in your opinion? How many games? To bring this fully around is the general assessment from Ireland fans that best is the 2nd best hooker in the world?

Any posters outside of Ireland think hes the best hooker in the NH?

I see a lot mentioned about his leadership, Im talking about his abilities as a hooker. His throwing for starters is nowhere near that of many of his rivals....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Any posters outside of Ireland think hes the best hooker in the NH?

I see a lot mentioned about his leadership, Im talking about his abilities as a hooker. His throwing for starters is nowhere near that of many of his rivals....

Except everything proves you wrong regarding his darts

I think a player has to be a regular in an International team for at least 1 full year (just my opinion) to be considered a regular. Not as subs but as starting players.

I do not think that Best in the best in the world but he is up there for sure.

I think it's odd to suggest you need to be a starter for a year to be involved in this conversation as 2 of the players better than best are both English so couldn't both start. I asked if you considered best the 2nd best, after coles?

I don't think he's consistent enough for me. Some Irish players are certainly enjoying a return to previous form but its rarely carried from season to season.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Any posters outside of Ireland think hes the best hooker in the NH?

I see a lot mentioned about his leadership, Im talking about his abilities as a hooker. His throwing for starters is nowhere near that of many of his rivals....

This was the case a couple of years back but he has worked very hard on them and is now one of the most accurate throwers in the Pro-12 and also in the last AI's.

Scrummaging is very good, hooks the ball and drives well.

His work in the loose is very good, maybe not as good as Hartley's but very good.

Where I see his major strength is in the driving mauls from line outs. He directs them from the back better than anyone I have seen for a long time.

marty2086 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Any posters outside of Ireland think hes the best hooker in the NH?

I see a lot mentioned about his leadership, Im talking about his abilities as a hooker. His throwing for starters is nowhere near that of many of his rivals....

Except everything proves you wrong regarding his darts

What proves me wrong?

Its an opinion based on watching him play.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think it's odd to suggest you need to be a starter for a year to be involved in this conversation as 2 of the players better than best are both English so couldn't both start. I asked if you considered best the 2nd best, after coles?

You may find it odd but it is my opinion. No, I do not think he is better than Coles nor do I think he is better than Moore but he has improved a lot in the last year to prove to me that he is pushing them.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Any posters outside of Ireland think hes the best hooker in the NH?

I see a lot mentioned about his leadership, Im talking about his abilities as a hooker. His throwing for starters is nowhere near that of many of his rivals....

Except everything proves you wrong regarding his darts

What proves me wrong?

Its an opinion based on watching him play.

You say his throwing is nowhere near that of his rivals, yet the objective is to get It where its meant to go and he does it better than the rest is he meant to be doing more than that?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Any posters outside of Ireland think hes the best hooker in the NH?

I see a lot mentioned about his leadership, Im talking about his abilities as a hooker. His throwing for starters is nowhere near that of many of his rivals....

Ian McGeechan said he was the best Hooker in the NH in November.

Can you provide stats to back up the claim that his throwing is as bad as you say it is?

Does anyone outside of England think Hartley is the best option? Probably not after his ban. The only thing Hartley is the best at is getting sent off.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Does anyone outside of England think Hartley is the best option? Probably not after his ban. The only thing Hartley is the best at is getting sent off.

Not so sure about that, think he has had 3 red cards in his career? Most of his banning's stem from citing's I believe and I am not sure he has been carded whilst playing for England (England fans)?
Hartley is very good but due to his past is often directly on the wrong foot with the referees.

His throwing is very inconsistent, this is an opinion from watching over a number of years. He makes the jumper work for ball and can have major off days. Top hookers have great darts, Best doesnt.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:His throwing is very inconsistent, this is an opinion from watching over a number of years. He makes the jumper work for ball and can have major off days. Top hookers have great darts, Best doesnt.

Jumpers must have to do a lot of work then to post some of the best stats around

eirebilly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Does anyone outside of England think Hartley is the best option? Probably not after his ban. The only thing Hartley is the best at is getting sent off.

Not so sure about that, think he has had 3 red cards in his career? Most of his banning's stem from citing's I believe and I am not sure he has been carded whilst playing for England (England fans)?
Hartley is very good but due to his past is often directly on the wrong foot with the referees.

Diplomacy of year award goes to Eirebilly. Three red cards is undoubtedly three more than any other contender for the Lions hooker job. Any man who cops over a year worth of bans has obvious issues.

He is too much of a liability to travel with the lions.

Not being diplomatic there guns but trying to keep the debate honest. I cannot remember Hartley being red carded for England.

I also do not believe he is a liability for the Lions. I like his niggly side, he plays so much better when he is niggly than when he trying to stay on the good side of a ref. As I said, his history does mean that he is penalised more as referees have him under a microscope.

I do find it strange you would consider someone like Ross Ford as better than jaime George. I find that hard to accept even if only opinion.

Can you post the pen's Hartley gave away as well for 2016.