Who is your team's most overrated player?

Just for laughs as the NH licks their wounds, who do you believe is your team's most overrated player? For Wales it has to be Justin Tipuric. He's had a couple good games for Wales and has been living off the back of that. There's still ongoing calls for him to be thrust into the team yet against Australia he seemed to be anonymous - furthermore I don't think he really has a great impact coming off the bench yet I always seem to read comments like "Tipuric played really well." An open-sides primary role is to boss the breakdown, exactly what Warburton does. Popping up on the wing and being able to pass the ball (which everyone bar Jenkins can do) does not make you a good open-side.

A little harsh maybe but I'm pretty tired of the calls for Wales to sift out one of the worlds best open-side flankers so that Tipuric can start. Paul James is a close second. So there we have it. Who do you believe to be your team's most overrated player and why?

Craig Joubert is SAs

George North has to be Wales, or Jamie Roberts.

Not that either are bad but because they are perceived as world class at what they do, what they do hinders wales.

Owen Farrell
Brad Barritt
Chris Robshaw
Courtney Lawes
Joe Marler
Tom Youngs
Dan Cole
Jonny May

Should I continue?

Tim McMisser probably. He scores a lot of tries but let's in just as many. Mind you I don't know if he is rated in the first place...

Not his fault because he has had some awful injuries, but I think Cian Healy has gone significantly backwards as a player, both in terms of the scrum and in the loose. Jack McGrath should be Number 1 now.

Sean O Brien, although he was very strong against France, can be a bit of penalty machine.

Fanster wrote:George North has to be Wales, or Jamie Roberts.

Not that either are bad but because they are perceived as world class at what they do, what they do hinders wales.

Fair comments, but I guess there's nobody else capable of filing their shoes.

Fanster wrote:George North has to be Wales, or Jamie Roberts.

Not that either are bad but because they are perceived as world class at what they do, what they do hinders wales.

I think for Roberts it has as much to do with what he is asked to do, think he can play differently.

Mr Bounce wrote:Owen Farrell
Brad Barritt
Chris Robshaw
Courtney Lawes
Joe Marler
Tom Youngs
Dan Cole
Jonny May

Should I continue?

Johnny May used to be, but now owns that jersey without a doubt.

I think the Northern Hemisphere in general has been a bit overrated

George North

Scotland: Maitland
Wales: Jonathan Davies
Ireland: Healy

SA = Craig Joubert

Fanster wrote:George North has to be Wales, or Jamie Roberts.

Not that either are bad but because they are perceived as world class at what they do, what they do hinders wales.

Asked to do a job though I thought ie smash, bang, kerrang every time and not look to off load unlike the SH inside centres. Maybe shift him to full back.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Fanster wrote:George North has to be Wales, or Jamie Roberts.

Not that either are bad but because they are perceived as world class at what they do, what they do hinders wales.

Fair comments, but I guess there's nobody else capable of filing their shoes.

Jamie Roberts? Are you serious?!!!

As much as I dislike the fact Gatland stubbornly adheres to his physical game plan Roberts is instrumental in its implementation.

He gives Wales so much momentum and front foot ball I think under Gatland's physically dominated play style Roberts is Wales most important player.

I think Roberts is one of our best players, but a fair few fans seem to think otherwise.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Fanster wrote:George North has to be Wales, or Jamie Roberts.

Not that either are bad but because they are perceived as world class at what they do, what they do hinders wales.

Fair comments, but I guess there's nobody else capable of filing their shoes.

Jamie Roberts? Are you serious?!!!

As much as I dislike the fact Gatland stubbornly adheres to his physical game plan Roberts is instrumental in its implementation.

He gives Wales so much momentum and front foot ball I think under Gatland's physically dominated play style Roberts is Wales most important player.

My point is without Roberts that first phase crash bang wallop isn't an option, even if we used the huge wingers it would be more options as inside balls etc...

Scott Williams was the form centre before Davies injury, so would like to have seen him at 12 earlier anyway.

Maybe if the welsh didn't have Roberts they wouldn't be so keen to want to smash up teams.... which unfortunately means they'll win a few 6Ns but lose to the boks/AUS/NZ every time. Perhaps it would be better to have a Giteau/Henson/Steyn type 12?

fa0019 wrote:Maybe if the welsh didn't have Roberts they wouldn't be so keen to want to smash up teams.... which unfortunately means they'll win a few 6Ns but lose to the boks/AUS/NZ every time. Perhaps it would be better to have a Giteau/Henson/Steyn type 12?

Clueless.

Hard to say who's England's is. That many differing opinions means its hard to say. Seeing as Launchbury is the latest, i'll go for Joseph. Someone else will be next week in case you don't pick up on the cynicism.

mikey_dragon wrote:I think Roberts is one of our best players, but a fair few fans seem to think otherwise.

Certainly is.

fa0019 wrote:Maybe if the welsh didn't have Roberts they wouldn't be so keen to want to smash up teams.... which unfortunately means they'll win a few 6Ns but lose to the boks/AUS/NZ every time. Perhaps it would be better to have a Giteau/Henson/Steyn type 12?

Now there's a thought.

mikey_dragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Maybe if the welsh didn't have Roberts they wouldn't be so keen to want to smash up teams.... which unfortunately means they'll win a few 6Ns but lose to the boks/AUS/NZ every time. Perhaps it would be better to have a Giteau/Henson/Steyn type 12?

Clueless.

Does he offer anything else? He can't kick or distribute?

Take Nonu for instance, he too was a straight line ball running 12. But he evolved into an excellent distributor in his own right with what has become an excellent deft boot attacking wise.

The issue with Roberts is that whilst he suits Gatlands play, its the sort of play which keeps Wales limited to NH success but SH defeat. Take Henson for instance. For argument sake say he was fit, he continued playing well from 08 onwards, who would you pick Henson or Roberts.

It would be Henson every time because he offers a wide range of options. Ball carrier, kicker, distributor.

If you only have ball carrier you become easy to read... Wales played AUS, ENG and SA in this world cup, they scored 2 tries in 3 matches. They are in part predictable. Sure if you bash the door down enough no one can stop you... but the best teams can and did. As long as you can prepare for the hit and have the tools to deal with it you can suppress it. Maybe if they had JD2, 1/2p, Williams, Webb (although Davies has been the find of the tournament for HN teams) etc then they would have got over the line over the boks... however I don't think it would have changed your approach that much and therefore I don't think it would have changed the result either. Maybe but probably not.

I think he's a good 12, I don't think he's your worst player or even close (cuthberts defence wins that). However I do think his selection tends to limit your play and the way that teams read Wales. Even look at England. Burgess had him to be fair well wrapped up, 10 points up when he left at 60 mins... a 3 cap player, should be easy for a 2 lions tour 3 GS winning vet right?

Maybe Wales don't have another option., maybe the best second five eigth isn't good enough. But I do think it limits Wales a lot even though he often plays well.

Maybe I'm clueless.

Yet to see a single impressive thing about Jesse kriel. To be fair he has an exciting looking running styling with cute looking goose step, and tiny footsteps

kingraf wrote:Yet to see a single impressive thing about Jesse kriel. To be fair he has an exciting looking running styling with cute looking goose step, and tiny footsteps

Not one thing? Not his smash through Nonu and Smith for a try on his debut? Defence bad yes. But attack he's decent and you can teach defence as long as a player has heart. You can't teach attacking prowess though.

Didn't catch that match. More importantly all gleaned from a RC before the world is the injury list.

Didn't rate going forward against Japan. Had fleeting moments against Scotland, and outside of a run which led to a penalty vs Wales, I was pleasantly surprised to find out he had in fact been on the field.

Strokosh. Never seen much in him and now he is slothlike as well

For England. Sam Burgess. The most overated centre player England have ever selected.

fa0019 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Maybe if the welsh didn't have Roberts they wouldn't be so keen to want to smash up teams.... which unfortunately means they'll win a few 6Ns but lose to the boks/AUS/NZ every time. Perhaps it would be better to have a Giteau/Henson/Steyn type 12?

Clueless.

Does he offer anything else? He can't kick or distribute?

Used to be a full back and has a big boot.
Passed to Lloyd Williams which led to the decisive try under the posts against England. The phases building up to the try I find interesting with regards to Roberts' input.

Toby Faletau. And I'm a Dragons fan too! People say he's great at cleaning up untidy ball when the scrum is going backwards. Yes he picks it up but he makes little ground. Most 8s can do that. Bend over, pick ball up, get tackled, place ball down, recycle. Not sure how that makes him outstanding. The rest of his game is average at best for me. He doesn't score many tries like other top international 8s, he's not much of a poacher, his tackle numbers are not up there with other top 8s, he's not that good as a link player anymore (used to be decent), he doesn't make huge ground either as he's a bit 'slight' in comparison to a lot of other international 8s.

Am I being overly harsh?!

mikey_dragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Maybe if the welsh didn't have Roberts they wouldn't be so keen to want to smash up teams.... which unfortunately means they'll win a few 6Ns but lose to the boks/AUS/NZ every time. Perhaps it would be better to have a Giteau/Henson/Steyn type 12?

Clueless.

He's right. If Wales had a player like that available they would use them.

If all the squad were for there would be valid debate on whether Jon Davies and Scott Williams would be the best option at centre.

But by the quarters we only had the option of north, Roberts and Tyler Morgan.

Thought Toby did well like all the forwards.

Yes very harsh. How's he meant to make much yardage off a retreating scrum? Thought his tackle stats were pretty good yesterday and whilst he isn't apparently scoring as many as other eights, he also isn't utilised the same. Wales certainly don't employ forwards as carriers as other teams do.

I'm not talking about one game. Just overall I don't rate him as a top international no. 8 like others seem to do. Just an opinion of course. Feel free to counter some arguments for him being in the same category as the likes of Reed, Parisse, Heaslip, et al. Happy to discuss. I just don't see it. Or perhaps miss it. But a lack of alternatives means he's all we've got.

I'll be a bit controversial and say Stuart Hogg. He has so much ability but, for Scotland, doesn't show it often enough. And can be a bit too huffy for my liking. That said, I met him when he opened a soft play area at my daughter's school and he is a really nice (and quiet) guy

I already have. He's used differently. Parisse is used as their go to talisman, Heaslip is a glorified winger and I am not comparing him to Read.

The crux of your argument initially was countered by me. I don't think he's in the class of Read, but I do think he's good at what he's there for. I don't think many eights would get away from a retreating scrum too well and he seems to make enough yards for me. Certainly better than any other Welsh forward who tend to accept contact (Sam aside probably).

Risca Rev wrote:I already have. He's used differently. Parisse is used as their go to talisman, Heaslip is a glorified winger and I am not comparing him to Read.

The crux of your argument initially was countered by me. I don't think he's in the class of Read, but I do think he's good at what he's there for. I don't think many eights would get away from a retreating scrum too well and he seems to make enough yards for me. Certainly better than any other Welsh forward who tend to accept contact (Sam aside probably).

Fair enough. Life would be boring if we all agreed.

So who is your nomination for this OP?

Risca Rev wrote:, Heaslip is a glorified winger.

Sorry Rev but you have lost me on that one. Of all the European 8's, I would like to have Heaslip in my team

InjuredYetAgain wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:, Heaslip is a glorified winger.

Sorry Rev but you have lost me on that one. Of all the European 8's, I would like to have Heaslip in my team

Apparently if Rev rates someone then others are not allowed not to Sort of makes the whole thread redundant.

fa0019 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Maybe if the welsh didn't have Roberts they wouldn't be so keen to want to smash up teams.... which unfortunately means they'll win a few 6Ns but lose to the boks/AUS/NZ every time. Perhaps it would be better to have a Giteau/Henson/Steyn type 12?

Clueless.

Does he offer anything else? He can't kick or distribute?

Take Nonu for instance, he too was a straight line ball running 12. But he evolved into an excellent distributor in his own right with what has become an excellent deft boot attacking wise.

The issue with Roberts is that whilst he suits Gatlands play, its the sort of play which keeps Wales limited to NH success but SH defeat. Take Henson for instance. For argument sake say he was fit, he continued playing well from 08 onwards, who would you pick Henson or Roberts.

It would be Henson every time because he offers a wide range of options. Ball carrier, kicker, distributor.

If you only have ball carrier you become easy to read... Wales played AUS, ENG and SA in this world cup, they scored 2 tries in 3 matches. They are in part predictable. Sure if you bash the door down enough no one can stop you... but the best teams can and did. As long as you can prepare for the hit and have the tools to deal with it you can suppress it. Maybe if they had JD2, 1/2p, Williams, Webb (although Davies has been the find of the tournament for HN teams) etc then they would have got over the line over the boks... however I don't think it would have changed your approach that much and therefore I don't think it would have changed the result either. Maybe but probably not.

I think he's a good 12, I don't think he's your worst player or even close (cuthberts defence wins that). However I do think his selection tends to limit your play and the way that teams read Wales. Even look at England. Burgess had him to be fair well wrapped up, 10 points up when he left at 60 mins... a 3 cap player, should be easy for a 2 lions tour 3 GS winning vet right?

Maybe Wales don't have another option., maybe the best second five eigth isn't good enough. But I do think it limits Wales a lot even though he often plays well.

Maybe I'm clueless.

Yes you are clueless because I've watched him throughout his career and clearly you have not. I'll keep it short as you're going off topic but to answer your question, yes he can kick and pass. Being without Roberts won't change the game plan, nor would having the injured players available to us change it. Eng, Aus and SA each have a pretty good defence and while we may have just scored two, we only let in two. Oh and it isn't unfortunate to win 6 Nations' - just ask Scotland as I bet they would love to notch a few .

maestegmafia wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Maybe if the welsh didn't have Roberts they wouldn't be so keen to want to smash up teams.... which unfortunately means they'll win a few 6Ns but lose to the boks/AUS/NZ every time. Perhaps it would be better to have a Giteau/Henson/Steyn type 12?

Clueless.

He's right. If Wales had a player like that available they would use them.

If all the squad were for there would be valid debate on whether Jon Davies and Scott Williams would be the best option at centre.

But by the quarters we only had the option of north, Roberts and Tyler Morgan.

So why don't we put Hook or Patchell there?

Roberts and Williams is the best centre partnership. Jon Davies is probably our third most overrated player!

Griff wrote:Toby Faletau. And I'm a Dragons fan too! People say he's great at cleaning up untidy ball when the scrum is going backwards. Yes he picks it up but he makes little ground. Most 8s can do that. Bend over, pick ball up, get tackled, place ball down, recycle. Not sure how that makes him outstanding. The rest of his game is average at best for me. He doesn't score many tries like other top international 8s, he's not much of a poacher, his tackle numbers are not up there with other top 8s, he's not that good as a link player anymore (used to be decent), he doesn't make huge ground either as he's a bit 'slight' in comparison to a lot of other international 8s.

Am I being overly harsh?!

You should rewatch the 2nd half of the England game, when on form and motivated Faletau workrate is just amazing.

But i see where you are coming from and too often including when playing for the Dragons he looks like he is just going through the motions.

mikey_dragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Maybe if the welsh didn't have Roberts they wouldn't be so keen to want to smash up teams.... which unfortunately means they'll win a few 6Ns but lose to the boks/AUS/NZ every time. Perhaps it would be better to have a Giteau/Henson/Steyn type 12?

Clueless.

Does he offer anything else? He can't kick or distribute?

Take Nonu for instance, he too was a straight line ball running 12. But he evolved into an excellent distributor in his own right with what has become an excellent deft boot attacking wise.

The issue with Roberts is that whilst he suits Gatlands play, its the sort of play which keeps Wales limited to NH success but SH defeat. Take Henson for instance. For argument sake say he was fit, he continued playing well from 08 onwards, who would you pick Henson or Roberts.

It would be Henson every time because he offers a wide range of options. Ball carrier, kicker, distributor.

If you only have ball carrier you become easy to read... Wales played AUS, ENG and SA in this world cup, they scored 2 tries in 3 matches. They are in part predictable. Sure if you bash the door down enough no one can stop you... but the best teams can and did. As long as you can prepare for the hit and have the tools to deal with it you can suppress it. Maybe if they had JD2, 1/2p, Williams, Webb (although Davies has been the find of the tournament for HN teams) etc then they would have got over the line over the boks... however I don't think it would have changed your approach that much and therefore I don't think it would have changed the result either. Maybe but probably not.

I think he's a good 12, I don't think he's your worst player or even close (cuthberts defence wins that). However I do think his selection tends to limit your play and the way that teams read Wales. Even look at England. Burgess had him to be fair well wrapped up, 10 points up when he left at 60 mins... a 3 cap player, should be easy for a 2 lions tour 3 GS winning vet right?

Maybe Wales don't have another option., maybe the best second five eigth isn't good enough. But I do think it limits Wales a lot even though he often plays well.

Maybe I'm clueless.

Yes you are clueless because I've watched him throughout his career and clearly you have not. I'll keep it short as you're going off topic but to answer your question, yes he can kick and pass. Being without Roberts won't change the game plan, nor would having the injured players available to us change it. Eng, Aus and SA each have a pretty good defence and while we may have just scored two, we only let in two. Oh and it isn't unfortunate to win 6 Nations' - just ask Scotland as I bet they would love to notch a few .

Its not that I think he shouldn't have played at this world cup but its the style of play that limits you going forward. Sure he can kick and pass... I'm sure Adam Jones can do. Is he any good at it? Does he do it in games? Most of the time Roberts gets the ball its up the jumper, we know it, his teammates know it, the opposition know it. Its a lot easier to defend a situation when you know how its going to pan out.
He's good at his job, I don't deny that. He's also a good player. But he tends to epitomise a limited game plan. Maybe its team orders I don't know.
I don't buy this bull we've had so many injuries boo hoo, most teams at anyone time will have 3 first choice players out injured. Wales have still been able to put out quality sides for their 3 big matches vs. ENG, AUS & SA. But they only scored 2 tries in those matches and hardly ever threatened the line. and to be honest one of those was a bit of brilliance, a bit luck (SA). I didn't suggest it, I just replied in agreement that playing certain players limits your play and its the reason why you don't tend to beat big sides.  In many ways I'd rather be a team which plays above their station and wins nothing then a team that sometimes does win things but rarely does play beyond their capabilities.

Yes - somebody answered it for you. It's not difficult to scroll up. Are Wales the only team who uses their 12 as a carrier? I think your post is drivel to be honest and it's been evident lately that you really don't like Wales so for the sake of staying on topic I'll leave it at that.

I'd say Lawes, Marler, Barritt & Burgess for this WC. Certainly for all the hype around Sam. Altho he shouldve been playing at blindside.
Wales...Halfp.

Always felt Lawes was seriously overrated too, Breadvan. Is he a lock or is he a 6?!

I'd say Burgess is, if anything, under-rated. He's no international 12, certainly, but I've seen very few comments that acknowledge him doing anything good at all. He offered very little in attack, but he certainly shored up the 10/12 channel. No team attacked England through Burgess' channel, at least not after the first couple of attempts. He shouldn't have been selected as a 12, but I would say he was no worse than Brad Barritt or Owen Farrell at 12.

For England, Lawes is the obvious choice. His lineout work is solid, but not among the very best. He's not a big ball carrier. He can put in big hits, but rarely dominates the opposition pack. As a lighter lock who gets around the field, Parling looked the better player.

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

For England, Lawes is the obvious choice. His lineout work is solid, but not among the very best. He's not a big ball carrier. He can put in big hits, but rarely dominates the opposition pack. As a lighter lock who gets around the field, Parling looked the better player.

I agree with this.

Even if your trying to play a fast open game you need a pack who can smash the breakdown etc for quick ball. I just don't believe that Lawes is good enough in those areas. And he certainly doesn't show any physicality against the opposition pack.

Launchbury by far our most over-rated player. suggestions from some that he is already world class, followed by assertions that we should build our team around him.

Not saying he is bad.

Not even saying he should not be in the team.

Just feel that some of the ratings of him as a player are for now, well over the top.

Rhys Priestland, Dominic Day, James Hook, Aaron Jarvis - any of them lot.