Most overrated current international player.

First topic message reminder :

Just a bit of fun. Who do people think is the most overrated player currently. For me it's Will Skelton. Just don't see what he adds to the aussie team.

uncle_nigel wrote:Yeah you are missing it just like you missed Brown's childish behaviour. Try opening both eyes

When I say "maybe I'm missing it" what I mean is "I'm professionally very good at overcoming bias and I'm nearly 100% sure that I'm right and you're wrong but it wouldn't be very polite of me to say that so bluntly"  I really don't think I've missed it at all, maybe for Lawes, Itoje or even Kruis but not for Launchbury, and I actively try to avoid being one-eyed  

You've failed.

The only things he's failed in is agreeing with your opinion....

I got another one - Samson Lee. Its not that he isn't a good prop. And he has got a lot of time to get to be a much better one. But I think the only reason he's rated is because of the lack of alternatives in Wales.

I don't think he'd be first choice for any other home nation.

Ben Youngs!

I don't think we rate Lee that highly but the lack of options at TH is a bit of a worry. Francis almost looked like the finished article in the AI so that's a bit of a relief.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He wasn't reacting to what Warburton was doing and saying then after a flare up not initially involving Brown? Not sure you're right personally and yes he was walked backwards by 4 Welsh players. Yes Warburton then tried to wind him up more but that's the game these days.

You watched a different game to the one I watched 7&1/2.  But then again, I'm the neutral so I understand.

Just rewatch it on youtube, scuffle with Cole loads rush in, Brown arrives late and takes exception to Warburton grabs him from behind 3 other Welsh players join in. Whole thing finishes while Brown is then taking on a prop. Not a word of a lie.

"Taking on". Am I missing something here? Is it really that tough of the little man squaring up/throwing himself around on such an arena? If anyone smacks him, he knows they're getting sent off. He's relatively safe in "taking on" a bigger man by pushing and shoving them about. I'd say it's an intelligent ploy to try to get a reaction, or at the very least ruffle the opposition and fire up your own team, but that's giving Brown way too much credit. The terrier behind the garden gate/ref's whistle indeed.

Small dogs tend to go for the throat, good on Brown backing his team mates.

Late to the party but Tendai Mtawarira is mine. Gets called the beast but plays like a pussycat, never seen him have a good game or show signs of any physicality when he plays Wales

Farrell is mine. a good ten in the Wilkinson mode but lacking that extra piece of magic that outstanding 10s can do to unlock defenses but according to many the best in the NH

True Raven wrote:Late to the party but Tendai Mtawarira is mine.  Gets called the beast but plays like a pussycat, never seen him have a good game or show signs of any physicality when he plays Wales

Good one Raven. That chant of 'Beast, Beast, Beast' when he gets the ball - often times I've become so embarrassed for him that I've started chanting it myself - wishing him to live up the their expectations. I'm sure people will dig up Youtube reels of him going all out but the games I've watched, he wasn't exactly doing anything Lomuesque

uncle_nigel wrote: You should have watched Scrum V last weekend, Peter Jackson gave Jiffy et al a dose of reality and it was beautiful..

I recognise that blinkered and uneducated opinion...

Peter Jackson sounded like a fool. Populist and hollow words along the lines of "if you pick Giles you have to play him!", when the actual rugby player is explaining to him that it would be stupid to throw on a teenager into a game where the team is clearly bottling it, not playing well, and just trying to scrape through to the final whistle. But yes..."reality".

Overrated pundits? Eddie Butler is starting to get a bit boring. "And yet..."

Farrell's definitely overrated. No fault of his own. Constantly lauded by the Sky Sports type crowd, hoping for another Wilkinson figure to market the game. They've fallen in and out of love with him, but they're back in love now. Which is strange. You'd think Ford would get more praise than he does, perhaps because he doesn't kick.

But Farrell is definitely a little overblown. Is this only the second time he's been nominated for World Player of the Year? If so, it's still too many times.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Small dogs tend to go for the throat, good on Brown backing his team mates.

He's more like the small dog aggressively humping and biting your lower leg simultaneously.

miaow wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote: You should have watched Scrum V last weekend, Peter Jackson gave Jiffy et al a dose of reality and it was beautiful..

I recognise that blinkered and uneducated opinion...

Peter Jackson sounded like a fool. Populist and hollow words along the lines of "if you pick Giles you have to play him!", when the actual rugby player is explaining to him that it would be stupid to throw on a teenager into a game where the team is clearly bottling it, not playing well, and just trying to scrape through to the final whistle. But yes..."reality".

Overrated pundits? Eddie Butler is starting to get a bit boring. "And yet..."

I thought Peter Jackson's point was that Cuthbert was having an absolute stinker of a game and was damaging Wales' prospects every minute he was on that pitch and Howley had said midweek that 'it doesn't matter how old you are, if you are good enough you are old enough', picked him on the bench but then refused to bring him on when in all reality, couldnt have fared worse than Cuthbert who was lumbering around the pitch making mistakes

miaow wrote:

Overrated pundits? Eddie Butler is starting to get a bit boring. "And yet..."

...and yet..., and yet the burning glint of a creeping Winter sun finally offs its coat of shallow day and wends its way beneath the horizon to chase after warmer days in the hallowed lands of the Southern Rugby Nations; even though half day falls into dusk and then cold night, Eddie will glow warmly. Like a haven fire to ancient man, Eddie will warm the heart of we who say we are Rugby Men......................................



....................................

Yeah, but that doesn't make sense, does it? It's like in football, you don't make a substitution when you're about to defend a set piece coming into your own box. In the second half, as the game went on, we were all anticipating Wales pulling away and seeing Giles come on. But the last thing you want to do is throw someone who doesn't even have half a season of pro rugby under his belt into to field of play, when there's already so much expectation around him, in the dying minutes when the game is absolutely in the balance and you're playing well below the leve you should be.

It was a rare piece of good reactive management from Howley. The point is, in that situation, you don't bring him on. However, you don't put yourself in that situation in the first place, and that starts with not selecting Cuthbert, all the way through to making sure you've put the conditions in place that mean you're comfortably beating a weak Japanese side at home. In being unable to foster those things, Howley clearly struggled in the Autumn, and didn't manage well at all.

Jackson just liked the sound of his voice. You can accuse Jiffy of the same, but I think he's matured into perhaps the most insightful television pundit on the BBC. He doesn't overdo himself by getting involved in what he doesn't know, professing opinions on modern law changes to the scrums of whatever. But you can see in the way he analyses the game that his ability as a cross code, footballing rugby player of the highest quality gives him an astute ability to analyse the game to a level far higher than Jackson every could. He has literal experience of the sport that actually matters, whereas Jackson's populist rhetoric (not just on this issue by the way) was just hypothetical: it didn't mean anything. It was journalism at its worst.

I might go back and watch it if it's still on iplayer later to refresh my memory. I can remember feeling that both Martyn Williams and Jiffy were damning Jackson with their silence and then contradictory comments, clearly not in agreement with him, and it took Jiffy challenging him directly and Martyn playing peacemaker to confirm that.

SecretFly wrote:

miaow wrote:

Overrated pundits? Eddie Butler is starting to get a bit boring. "And yet..."

...and yet..., and yet the burning glint of a creeping Winter sun finally offs its coat of shallow day and wends its way beneath the horizon to chase after warmer days in the hallowed lands of the Southern Rugby Nations; even though half day falls into dusk and then cold night, Eddie will glow warmly.  Like a haven fire to ancient man, Eddie will warm the heart of we who say we are Rugby Men......................................



....................................

Nicely overblown. For your consideration, see if you could include some unecessarily overblown alliteration and rhyme.

miaow wrote:Yeah, but that doesn't make sense, does it? It's like in football, you don't make a substitution when you're about to defend a set piece coming into your own box. In the second half, as the game went on, we were all anticipating Wales pulling away and seeing Giles come on. But the last thing you want to do is throw someone who doesn't even have half a season of pro rugby under his belt into to field of play, when there's already so much expectation around him, in the dying minutes when the game is absolutely in the balance and you're playing well below the leve you should be.

It was a rare piece of good reactive management from Howley. The point is, in that situation, you don't bring him on. However, you don't put yourself in that situation in the first place, and that starts with not selecting Cuthbert, all the way through to making sure you've put the conditions in place that mean you're comfortably beating a weak Japanese side at home. In being unable to foster those things, Howley clearly struggled in the Autumn, and didn't manage well at all.

Jackson just liked the sound of his voice. You can accuse Jiffy of the same, but I think he's matured into perhaps the most insightful television pundit on the BBC. He doesn't overdo himself by getting involved in what he doesn't know, professing opinions on modern law changes to the scrums of whatever. But you can see in the way he analyses the game that his ability as a cross code, footballing rugby player of the highest quality gives him an astute ability to analyse the game to a level far higher than Jackson every could. He has literal experience of the sport that actually matters, whereas Jackson's populist rhetoric (not just on this issue by the way) was just hypothetical: it didn't mean anything. It was journalism at its worst.

I might go back and watch it if it's still on iplayer later to refresh my memory. I can remember feeling that both Martyn Williams and Jiffy were damning Jackson with their silence and then contradictory comments, clearly not in agreement with him, and it took Jiffy challenging him directly and Martyn playing peacemaker to confirm that.

This I agree with but Howley set himself up for criticism by saying Giles is good enough for Wales and picking him regardless of how many pro games he has.

Personally, I would hauled off Cuthbert at half time. The guy was being outpaced by the Japanese winger and offered nothing but knock ons in attack. Who said Giles had to make his debut in the dying moments? There were 80 minutes where Howley could have brought him on

From my observations and memories, Eddie actually doesn't often fall under the trap of alliteration too much. He's a more prose poet than a Red Top sports hack. It's the tone of voice that carries the poetic clarity of his message.

True Raven wrote:
This I agree with but Howley set himself up for criticism by saying Giles is good enough for Wales and picking him regardless of how many pro games he has.

Personally, I would hauled off Cuthbert at half time.  The guy was being outpaced by the Japanese winger and offered nothing but knock ons in attack.  Who said Giles had to make his debut in the dying moments?  There were 80 minutes where Howley could have brought him on

Yeah, of course. I could spend hours dissecting how fing mental it is, and how destructive, to have all this discussion on Giles, and how demonstrative it is of the lack of focus on what is really required to sort Welsh rugby out. However, you have to accept the intentional fallacy of comments to the media: you know, Howley is answering a question probably put to him about whether a 19 year old is ready etc., what's he doing to say? Of course he's going to back him. Does that mean that he trusts effectively a kid to reliably defend when Wales are playing terribly, in a system and level and with players he hasn't played with before? How much money would you put on that? When it's your reputation on the line, would you just throw him on, and possibly hang the kid out to dry? If Giles was out of his depth, there's no doubt as to where the criticism would be levelled, even if Giles is damaged by the furore as well.

What was the half time score? 14-13, a one point lead. Again, you cannot throw him on in that situation if he then goes on to have 40 minutes of hell, Wales lose etc., because frankly that was the more likely option. It's weighing things up, and sadly, whilst this is in no way a defence of Cuthbert's selection, he is at least "experienced" and knows the calls etc., that means most of his mistakes aren't due to him not knowing the system, of being dropped in, but rather are because he is an atrocious rugby player. I said I wouldn't go into the Giles decision, but one of the quite obvious problems was putting him on the bench in the first place. We're trying to force in this kid into a game whereby he won't feel the pressure, where we've got a three score cushion or whatever, and he can focus on expressing himself and acclimatising to Test rugby. However, that's putting the cart before the horse. The Argentina game wasn't a big success: we defended well, but the Pumas will beat themselves up for not really playing, as we were there for the taking. Forget about trying to shoehorn in the next Shane by putting him on the bench, sort out the bigger problems.

Where Jackson comes in is he gives validity to all the mouths who are all "get Giles on!", this saviour complex, hoping for one player to sort things out, paper over the cracks, as if that is something that is even worth talking about when the problems are and will always be far more fundamental than who's playing on the blindside wing!

Peter Jackson: wildly overrated

So it begins, bored as they must be post term tour, the press are already spinning the World Class England brand. Its like they have feck all else to write about so they start on abut who is world class and who is a donkey (Alex cuthbert)
England are a good side with a fabulous record and have effected an amazing 180 since a year ago….now they have to manage the World Class BS.
In that context England won't know how good they are until they play NZ and they are avoiding that until 2018 at least which seems ridiculous.
Ignore the hype and stay on course, which i am sure they will with Eddie, and you have to say they'll be unstoppable by 2018. Meanwhile the speculation is irrelevant and unhelpful.

Gwlad wrote:So it begins, bored as they must be post term tour, the press are already spinning the World Class England brand. Its like they have feck all else to write about so they start on abut who is world class and who is a donkey (Alex cuthbert)
England are a good side with a fabulous record and have effected an amazing 180 since a year ago….now they have to manage the World Class BS.
In that context England won't know how good they are until they play NZ and they are avoiding that until 2018 at least which seems ridiculous.
Ignore the hype and stay on course, which i am sure they will with Eddie, and you have to say they'll be unstoppable by 2018. Meanwhile the speculation is irrelevant and unhelpful.

Agree with you, Gwlad. Press hype gets exhausting, especially in an already over crowded season.

Sadly it's indicative of the lack of interest in the domestic game. Journalist therefore write lazy generic pieces about International teams and players because it's easy to get people to read them - click bait.

Is it too late for suggestions?

The Sexton wraparound.

Your man who replaced O'Driscoll on the last Lions tour.

The world class potential of Ulster centres over the last five years.

The Bristol Rugby coaches salary.

The South African World Cup Bid.

And Phil Vickery. Done nothing in years.

king_carlos wrote:

Gwlad wrote:So it begins, bored as they must be post term tour, the press are already spinning the World Class England brand. Its like they have feck all else to write about so they start on abut who is world class and who is a donkey (Alex cuthbert)
England are a good side with a fabulous record and have effected an amazing 180 since a year ago….now they have to manage the World Class BS.
In that context England won't know how good they are until they play NZ and they are avoiding that until 2018 at least which seems ridiculous.
Ignore the hype and stay on course, which i am sure they will with Eddie, and you have to say they'll be unstoppable by 2018. Meanwhile the speculation is irrelevant and unhelpful.

Agree with you, Gwlad. Press hype gets exhausting, especially in an already over crowded season.

Sadly it's indicative of the lack of interest in the domestic game. Journalist therefore write lazy generic pieces about International teams and players because it's easy to get people to read them - click bait.

I think we all know certain media types will hype the snot out of England any time one of the players is able to drink their evening cup of warm milk without spilling. They can be just a wee bit over the top. On the other hand, I think most people who follow Rugby look at this team as a work in progress. I think your summation is right on the money.

I don't think they are avoiding the ABs. The RFU loves money. And anyone who had had to shell out gobs of cash for a Twickenham match with the ABs know the RFU loves when England play the ABs. Almost seems like a screw-up to me.

I'm not sure how far in advance England NZ fixtures would be decided for November Tests, but England- more than any other country- will be wary to dangers of falling foul of the qualification system for the RWC. Now, they'll be more concerned about finishing top 4 than top 8, as was Wales's case, but could we see in the future a hesitancy for those around the 3-9 positions in the rankings taking on too many of the best sides in the world just before the seeings are made?

Could just be a screw up though.

Interestingly, if the above was true, would you see those in 4th or 9th position willing to take more of a risk, and therefore tip themselves into the category above by beating a team ranked significantly higher? And would those in 3rd, 6th, 7th etc. play it a bit safer and try to consolidate what they have?

Politics of RWC seedings: definitely overrated.

I don't think so. You are a bit more Machiavellian than I.
but it is an interesting thought. The teams which are historically the bigger crowd draws for which higher ticket prices can be charged, are also usually the better teams. Can Australia or South Africa play it safe and lose a potentially big payday? Wales, who appear to play Internationals any time there are a free few hours on a Saturday afternoon, seem to have cast their lot with the money.

Also given most Internationals are scheduled two years in advance, how could anyone know how good anyone was going to become? or how poor?

Gwlad wrote:So it begins, bored as they must be post term tour, the press are already spinning the World Class England brand. Its like they have feck all else to write about so they start on abut who is world class and who is a donkey (Alex cuthbert)
England are a good side with a fabulous record and have effected an amazing 180 since a year ago….now they have to manage the World Class BS.
In that context England won't know how good they are until they play NZ and they are avoiding that until 2018 at least which seems ridiculous.
Ignore the hype and stay on course, which i am sure they will with Eddie, and you have to say they'll be unstoppable by 2018. Meanwhile the speculation is irrelevant and unhelpful.

Just ignore the media, they generally suck in their approach on most topics nevermind rugby

Scotland -
Laidlaw (take away his kicking % and he is a good no.9 no more)
Richie Grey (Excellent in the early years - but cant remember the last time I saw a stand out performace from him)

Wales -
Cuthbert - (see above)
Halfpenny - (so much emphasis put on past excellence. Like laidlaw, take away kicking % and he is an average wing/15)

England -
Marlan Yarde (Never delivered on initial promise)
Ben Youngs (so many people forget all the naff service to 10 for the 1 good thing that he does in a game)

Ireland -
I would have said Kearny - but he had a great game against the ABs in Chicago.
Going to cause problems - But I think Rory Best is over rated. His darts are often wayward and personally I think he dips in and out of games.

propdavid_london wrote:
Going to cause problems - But I think Rory Best is over rated.  His darts are often wayward and personally I think he dips in and out of games.  

Often hear that, rarely see it and the stats back me up on that

Yeah - its a perception for me rather than the stats. He does bring other skills to the table too.

propdavid_london wrote:Scotland -
Laidlaw (take away his kicking % and he is a good no.9 no more)
Richie Grey (Excellent in the early years - but cant remember the last time I saw a stand out performace from him)

Wales -
Cuthbert - (see above)
Halfpenny - (so much emphasis put on past excellence.  Like laidlaw, take away kicking % and he is an average wing/15)

England -
Marlan Yarde (Never delivered on initial promise)
Ben Youngs (so many people forget all the naff service to 10 for the 1 good thing that he does in a game)

Ireland -
I would have said Kearny - but he had a great game against the ABs in Chicago.
Going to cause problems - But I think Rory Best is over rated.  His darts are often wayward and personally I think he dips in and out of games.  

Kearney? He isn't too well rated in Ireland. Most wished for him to be dropped a long time ago.

propdavid_london wrote:
Ireland -
I would have said Kearny - but he had a great game against the ABs in Chicago.
Going to cause problems - But I think Rory Best is over rated.  His darts are often wayward and personally I think he dips in and out of games.  

Kearney may not be rated as highly now but in the past, he was one of Irelands best players so I cant see how he could be seen as being over-rated.
Rory Best? This one confuses me, the man is excellent and is continually improving. Right now, if there was a Lions team, he would be my first choice for hooker and Captain.

Yes I knew it would be contentious - Like I said its just my opinion of Best, I believe there are better hookers out there.
I should have added Hartley into the England list of over rated too - for me there are better hookers out there than both - but they both bring other qualities to the table.

And I am only going on what peoples opinions are (around me) and they wax lyrical about both Best and Kearney.

propdavid_london wrote:Scotland -
Laidlaw (take away his kicking % and he is a good no.9 no more)
Richie Grey (Excellent in the early years - but cant remember the last time I saw a stand out performace from him)

Wales -
Cuthbert - (see above)
Halfpenny - (so much emphasis put on past excellence.  Like laidlaw, take away kicking % and he is an average wing/15)

England -
Marlan Yarde (Never delivered on initial promise)
Ben Youngs (so many people forget all the naff service to 10 for the 1 good thing that he does in a game)

Ireland -
I would have said Kearny - but he had a great game against the ABs in Chicago.
Going to cause problems - But I think Rory Best is over rated.  His darts are often wayward and personally I think he dips in and out of games.  

Who rates Cuthbert?!

propdavid_london wrote:Yes I knew it would be contentious - Like I said its just my opinion of Best, I believe there are better hookers out there.  
I should have added Hartley into the England list of over rated too - for me there are better hookers out there than both - but they both bring other qualities to the table.  

And I am only going on what peoples opinions are (around me) and they wax lyrical about both Best and Kearney.  

For me as an Ireland fan Best is the first name on the Ireland team sheet and is at this point probably our greatest ever hooker. He has 100 caps and has captained Ireland to wins against all the top teams in the world (except possibly England? but that will definitely happen in March).

He will probably never he recognised that much outside of Ireland but for me he is one of the few real key members of our team at this point.

I tend to agree that Best is overrated. A decent all round hooker but not top draw which isn't a bad thing.

Best is one of the most underrated players in world rugby, he gets very little plaudits outside Ulster that I can see.

Hate to kick a man when he's down, but Manu's achievements are in real danger of falling a long way short of the hype around him, albeit largely through injury. George North looks in danger of heading the same way with his head injuries.

rodders wrote:Best is one of the most underrated players in world rugby, he gets very little plaudits outside Ulster that I can see.

From overrated to one of the most underrated....interesting.

rodders wrote:Best is one of the most underrated players in world rugby, he gets very little plaudits outside Ulster that I can see.

Id agree with that, those who bash him usually talk about his lineouts except in most competitions he usually one of if not the best lineout stats and until the game in Clermont he was at 100% in the ERCC the only one to have been at 100% at that point too

Also about the only hooker who actually hooks the ball too in the scrum

With a surname like that he has to be overrated.

Yea....no other hookers can hook the ball.

Stats can be a little misleading in the lineout. Tom Youngs usually has pretty good stats but usually makes his jumper work for the ball. Somebody like Hartley has exceptional darts, I wouldn't put Best in that bracket.

I doubt many are suggesting Best is not a good player, he's just not that good for me. We all tend to overate our own players at times.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Yea....no other hookers can hook the ball.

Stats can be a little misleading in the lineout. Tom Youngs usually has pretty good stats but usually makes his jumper work for the ball. Somebody like Hartley has exceptional darts, I wouldn't put Best in that bracket.

I doubt many are suggesting Best is not a good player, he's just not that good for me. We all tend to overate our own players at times.

Whenever I watch Ulster or Ireland, Best's work and control at a driving maul after a line out is up there with the best I have seen. He has a very good all round game which is why I rate him as one of the worlds best currently.

I wouldn't have near the worlds best, possibly one of the top 5 in the NH. All opinions though

Aahh Pooly, ye know that Best is the best in the NH by a country mile now g'way and reassess that poor opinion of yours

Best is pretty good but he's no Flannery. I've never seen Rory kick a Frenchman into next week, for example

Cyril wrote:Best is pretty good but he's no Flannery. I've never seen Rory kick a Frenchman into next week, for example

Just gouges them according to some idiots

marty2086 wrote:

Cyril wrote:Best is pretty good but he's no Flannery. I've never seen Rory kick a Frenchman into next week, for example

Just gouges them according to some idiots

Well done marty. Are you utterly without a sense of humour? Come on, man it's a satirical post!