PRO12 has new Managing Director and he isn't Irish :D :yahoo:

First topic message reminder :

Welcome Martin Anayi, you are going to have your hands full.

Read more at http://www.pro12rugby.com/news/17587.php#kJPQdWr0F2UKZ8DF.99

Sin é wrote:

Not all of it. The IRFU would still be paying a flat rate for all players. Leinster would have had to top up.

Really?

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/sexton-agreement-with-denis-o-brien-confirms-irfu-s-strategy-1.1929917

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

So Thorn, Nacewa, Van Der Merwe and Berquist along with Strauss and White who were only project players back then come in under 800k?

If the management costs are for one or two employees then where are Schmidts etc listed?

And why are players wages listed under Team Management?

Players wages are not listed under Team Management. It's why there are two figures. Schmidt, I'd suggest, would have been paid out of the €30m.

Now, shall we revisit your claim of the IRFU not contracting every player? Come on, man up to it.

Then why the figures your using quoted after the term team management?

You've seen the phrase wages and salaries and jumped to a conclusion so why don't we make this easy, instead of your cut and paste job post the full accounts or at least that page

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

And you know better? You didn't even know who held the different contracts in Ireland so maybe its time you stopped pretending your so clued in to try and drive your ignorant ramblings on the subject

All the contracts for Irish qualified players are held by the IRFU and paid by them.

The branch accounts prove this, as do the accounts of the IRFU.

Sorry, Champ, but you need to do your research.

No central contracts are held by the IRFU that's different from Irish qualified players, only select players have these

This one's a keeper.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Your spoofing is looking worse.

Spoofing? How so? Please explain.

You are spoofing when you claim to actually know how the IRFU operates. Its like you read something or other and have manipulated the content into what you want to believe.

I just don't get the obsession you (& a lot of Welsh posters) have with Irish rugby? Why are you bothered what Irish players earn in Ireland? I couldn't give two tosses what AW Jones is earning (good luck to him getting as much as he can as he is a fine player).

marty2086 wrote:

Then why the figures your using quoted after the term team management?

You've seen the phrase wages and salaries and jumped to a conclusion so why don't we make this easy, instead of your cut and paste job post the full accounts or at least that page

We'll make it even easier by you confirming what you've written earlier in this thread. Yes? Please confirm these are your beliefs:

1. The IRFU do not hold the contracts of all players in Ireland.
2. The c.€30m is just for the National contracts of players and coaches.

Simple. Go for it. Just confirm yes or no to both questions and, if no, state your opinion.

This is toe curlingly glorious. Even Irish fans don't know how their Union operates.

Sin é wrote:

You are spoofing when you claim to actually know how the IRFU operates. Its like you read something or other and have manipulated the content into what you want to believe.

I just don't get the obsession you (& a lot of Welsh posters) have with Irish rugby? Why are you bothered what Irish players earn in Ireland? I couldn't give two tosses what AW Jones is earning (good luck to him getting as much as he can as he is a fine player).

I know how the IRFU operates by reading their annual reports and Branch Accounts. How is that spoofing? I've made my accurate opinion clearly known in this thread yet it is you and ol' Marty who have it all wrong, hilariously so.

Why should I be bothered about what Irish players earn? What an amazing question when those players populate the same league my club plays in.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

And you know better? You didn't even know who held the different contracts in Ireland so maybe its time you stopped pretending your so clued in to try and drive your ignorant ramblings on the subject

All the contracts for Irish qualified players are held by the IRFU and paid by them.

The branch accounts prove this, as do the accounts of the IRFU.

Sorry, Champ, but you need to do your research.

No central contracts are held by the IRFU that's different from Irish qualified players, only select players have these

This one's a keeper.

I think you are a bit confused between the different kinds of contracts available.

Sin é wrote:

I think you are a bit confused between the different kinds of contracts available.

I'm factually very happy in understanding the Grades of contract and who holds them and pays for them, thanks all of the same.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

You are spoofing when you claim to actually know how the IRFU operates. Its like you read something or other and have manipulated the content into what you want to believe.

I just don't get the obsession you (& a lot of Welsh posters) have with Irish rugby? Why are you bothered what Irish players earn in Ireland? I couldn't give two tosses what AW Jones is earning (good luck to him getting as much as he can as he is a fine player).

I know how the IRFU operates by reading their annual reports and Branch Accounts. How is that spoofing? I've made my accurate opinion clearly known in this thread yet it is you and ol' Marty who have it all wrong, hilariously so.

Why should I be bothered about what Irish players earn? What an amazing question when those players populate the same league my club plays in.

Well, fair play to you if you can get all that information from the IRFU's accounts and an old set of accounts from the Leinster branch.

Sin é wrote:

I think you are a bit confused between the different kinds of contracts available.

Unless, of course, you were meant to aim this at Marty and yourself in which case you'd have been spot on.

Come on Marty...

Sin é wrote:
Well, fair play to you if you can get all that information from the IRFU's accounts and an old set of accounts from the Leinster branch.

Cheers. Now, could you be a star and have a quick review of all of the questions you're yet to answer from this thread?

Thanks in advance.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

I think you are a bit confused between the different kinds of contracts available.

I'm factually very happy in understanding the Grades of contract and who holds them and pays for them, thanks all of the same.

Yet you didn't know that Ian Madigan was on 80K a year or that Luke Fitz was only on 120K.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Then why the figures your using quoted after the term team management?

You've seen the phrase wages and salaries and jumped to a conclusion so why don't we make this easy, instead of your cut and paste job post the full accounts or at least that page

We'll make it even easier by you confirming what you've written earlier in this thread. Yes? Please confirm these are your beliefs:

1. The IRFU do not hold the contracts of all players in Ireland.
2. The c.€30m is just for the National contracts of players and coaches.

Simple. Go for it. Just confirm yes or no to both questions and, if no, state your opinion.

I think Im waiting on something from you

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

I think you are a bit confused between the different kinds of contracts available.

I'm factually very happy in understanding the Grades of contract and who holds them and pays for them, thanks all of the same.

Yet you didn't know that Ian Madigan was on 80K a year or that Luke Fitz was only on 120K.

The salary figure is irrelevant to the discussion, Sin. I just glossed over that diversion attempt.

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Then why the figures your using quoted after the term team management?

You've seen the phrase wages and salaries and jumped to a conclusion so why don't we make this easy, instead of your cut and paste job post the full accounts or at least that page

We'll make it even easier by you confirming what you've written earlier in this thread. Yes? Please confirm these are your beliefs:

1. The IRFU do not hold the contracts of all players in Ireland.
2. The c.€30m is just for the National contracts of players and coaches.

Simple. Go for it. Just confirm yes or no to both questions and, if no, state your opinion.

I think Im waiting on something from you

What's obvious is the pwning you've received.

Still think that the IRFU don't contract all of the players?

Chunky Norwich wrote:This is toe curlingly glorious. Even Irish fans don't know how their Union operates.

The interesting bit, especially with Marty, is the diversionary tactics to try to deflect the argument away from claims he has made. He did it with the BS he wrote about Lewis and RRW, refusing to acknowledge the two key sources of information that destroyed his argument. Now, he's doing the same with this contractual stuff.

It's as though he's fooled himself into thinking that nobody else can read this stuff so if he pretends it is not there then it really won't be there.

An interesting way for an adult to behave.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Then why the figures your using quoted after the term team management?

You've seen the phrase wages and salaries and jumped to a conclusion so why don't we make this easy, instead of your cut and paste job post the full accounts or at least that page

We'll make it even easier by you confirming what you've written earlier in this thread. Yes? Please confirm these are your beliefs:

1. The IRFU do not hold the contracts of all players in Ireland.
2. The c.€30m is just for the National contracts of players and coaches.

Simple. Go for it. Just confirm yes or no to both questions and, if no, state your opinion.

I think Im waiting on something from you

What's obvious is the pwning you've received.

Still think that the IRFU don't contract all of the players?

Are you going to provide the rest of those accounts?

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Then why the figures your using quoted after the term team management?

You've seen the phrase wages and salaries and jumped to a conclusion so why don't we make this easy, instead of your cut and paste job post the full accounts or at least that page

We'll make it even easier by you confirming what you've written earlier in this thread. Yes? Please confirm these are your beliefs:

1. The IRFU do not hold the contracts of all players in Ireland.
2. The c.€30m is just for the National contracts of players and coaches.

Simple. Go for it. Just confirm yes or no to both questions and, if no, state your opinion.

I think Im waiting on something from you

What's obvious is the pwning you've received.

Still think that the IRFU don't contract all of the players?

Are you going to provide the rest of those accounts?

Happy to, once you've answered those questions. I've got a 12 page PDF so I've no idea how to attach that to here. Whilst I work that out, you be a brave bunny and confirm the answers to those questions.

You may as well because you've already stated your case earlier in the thread. Be brave now.

PhilBB wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:This is toe curlingly glorious. Even Irish fans don't know how their Union operates.

The interesting bit, especially with Marty, is the diversionary tactics to try to deflect the argument away from claims he has made. He did it with the BS he wrote about Lewis and RRW, refusing to acknowledge the two key sources of information that destroyed his argument. Now, he's doing the same with this contractual stuff.

It's as though he's fooled himself into thinking that nobody else can read this stuff so if he pretends it is not there then it really won't be there.

An interesting way for an adult to behave.

For me, the interesting bit is the sheer number of Irish fans who also have the same mindset. I suppose it's because there is a lack of transparency when it comes to Irish rugby finances. But you'd think that when somebody actually bothers to poke the transparency and present researchh, they'd listen. Unless of course:

1) They're in denial.
2) They don't want the real figures to be revealed.

Ah, to be fair to Marty, I've published the wrong figures there.

Now, to return to the point in hand, the IRFU contracts all players.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/contracts-could-cost-irfu-up-to-3m-1.105268
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/irish/2011/1221/288932-irfu/

Chunky Norwich wrote:

For me, the interesting bit is the sheer number of Irish fans who also have the same mindset. I suppose it's because there is a lack of transparency when it comes to Irish rugby finances. But you'd think that when somebody actually bothers to poke the transparency and present researchh, they'd listen. Unless of course:

1) They're in denial.
2) They don't want the real figures to be revealed.

In Marty's defence, in this thread at least, he is right to point out that I was quoting nonsense figures. That'll teach me for not concentrating.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

I think you are a bit confused between the different kinds of contracts available.

I'm factually very happy in understanding the Grades of contract and who holds them and pays for them, thanks all of the same.

Yet you didn't know that Ian Madigan was on 80K a year or that Luke Fitz was only on 120K.

The salary figure is irrelevant to the discussion, Sin. I just glossed over that diversion attempt.

Ah, I see. Irrelevant now, is it. You don't want to admit that the wage levels are not as high as you thought they were! You & Chunky are the ones who claim to know how the IRFU operate, yet you didn't know that there were huge cutbacks about 3 or 4 years ago.

Anyway, I'd like to see a copy of those Leinster accounts you keep going on about.

PhilBB wrote:Now, to return to the point in hand, the IRFU contracts all players.

And the Irish referees,that is a conflict of interest if there ever was one.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Now, to return to the point in hand, the IRFU contracts all players.

And the Irish referees,that is a conflict of interest if there ever was one.

IRFU refs don't have contracts. All of them have other jobs. Scarlets fan Nigel Owens is accredited by WRU, but will be paid by World Rugby to ref games in the world cup.

Sin é wrote:Scarlets fan Nigel Owens is accredited by WRU, but will be paid by World Rugby to ref games in the world cup.

What has that got to do with anything ?

PhilBB wrote:Ah, to be fair to Marty, I've published the wrong figures there.

Now, to return to the point in hand, the IRFU contracts all players.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/contracts-could-cost-irfu-up-to-3m-1.105268
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/irish/2011/1221/288932-irfu/

Crickey, a lot has changed since 1996. For instance, Munster Rugby was still amateur and only being set up. It didn't get a CEO for another 2 or 3 years!

PhilBB wrote:Ah, to be fair to Marty, I've published the wrong figures there.

Now, to return to the point in hand, the IRFU contracts all players.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/contracts-could-cost-irfu-up-to-3m-1.105268
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/irish/2011/1221/288932-irfu/

Crickey, a lot has changed since 1996. For instance, Munster Rugby was still amateur and only being set up. It didn't get a CEO for another 2 or 3 years!

Sin é wrote:
Ah, I see. Irrelevant now, is it. You don't want to admit that the wage levels are not as high as you thought they were! You & Chunky are the ones who claim to know how the IRFU operate, yet you didn't know that there were huge cutbacks about 3 or 4 years ago.

Anyway, I'd like to see a copy of those Leinster accounts you keep going on about.

Sure, what's your email address?

As for the figures, they are black and white. €30m. I'm not sure how you can dispute that. Top level contracts of over €500k without third party add ons, again all there in black and white. Players kept in Ireland with that kind of spend and a Union wishing to spend even more.

You should be proud of that, not embarrassed.

Sin é wrote:IRFU refs don't have contracts

Who pays them to ref then ?

Sin é wrote:All of them have other jobs

So they are not full time professional referee's then ? Well that explains a lot.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:Scarlets fan Nigel Owens is accredited by WRU, but will be paid by World Rugby to ref games in the world cup.

What has that got to do with anything ?

All refs are just accredited/trained by the National Unions. They are not on the payroll (other than an Admin Ref who manages them).

Nigel Owens as a Scarlets supporter is likely to be more biased as a ref towards Scarlets/Welsh rugby than John Lacey (former Munster player) being kind of Leinster or Ulster bearing in mind the rivalry there is between the Provinces.

But, I'd say Nigel & Lacey are ambitious and want to ref World Cup finals so they will do their job well to achieve that.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:IRFU refs don't have contracts

Who pays them to ref then ?

Sin é wrote:All of them have other jobs

So they are not full time professional referee's then ? Well that explains a lot.

Match day costs - league / tournament they are reffing in.

Why would the WRU pay Nigel Owens (who is much in demand) to ref NZ v SA for example?

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:IRFU refs don't have contracts

Who pays them to ref then ?

Sin é wrote:All of them have other jobs

So they are not full time professional referee's then ? Well that explains a lot.

Isn't Wayne Barnes a barrister?  Nigel Owens a comedian.

Even some of the soccer guys have other jobs - remember that Swedish ref who retired because of death threats was a dentist in real life.

http://www.fulcrumchambers.com/wayne-barnes/

Sin é wrote:

Nigel Owens as a Scarlets supporter

“People say I'm a Scarlets fan so I give them less because I don't want people to know I'm a Scarlet, but it’s a myth, total rubbish."


http://ellislanesport.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/nigel-owens-talks-rugby-refereeing-and.html

It's good to know that a referee is not biased by his region, so I suppose that's put to bed the idea that a referee is biased by his province.

The Great Aukster wrote:It's good to know that a referee is not biased by his region, so I suppose that's put to bed the idea that a referee is biased by his province.

Yup. Just his employers / colleagues.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Nigel Owens as a Scarlets supporter

“People say I'm a Scarlets fan so I give them less because I don't want people to know I'm a Scarlet, but it’s a myth, total rubbish."


http://ellislanesport.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/nigel-owens-talks-rugby-refereeing-and.html

Whats your point?

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Nigel Owens as a Scarlets supporter

“People say I'm a Scarlets fan so I give them less because I don't want people to know I'm a Scarlet, but it’s a myth, total rubbish."


http://ellislanesport.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/nigel-owens-talks-rugby-refereeing-and.html

Whats your point?

Seriously?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Nigel Owens as a Scarlets supporter

“People say I'm a Scarlets fan so I give them less because I don't want people to know I'm a Scarlet, but it’s a myth, total rubbish."


http://ellislanesport.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/nigel-owens-talks-rugby-refereeing-and.html

Whats your point?

Seriously?

Yea.

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Nigel Owens as a Scarlets supporter

“People say I'm a Scarlets fan so I give them less because I don't want people to know I'm a Scarlet, but it’s a myth, total rubbish."


http://ellislanesport.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/nigel-owens-talks-rugby-refereeing-and.html

Whats your point?

Seriously?

Yea.

People say Nigel Owens is a Scarlets fan, but it’s a myth, total rubbish.

My understanding of that quote is that he is a Scarlets fan and people claim he is harder on Scarlets to appear impartial.

PhilBB wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

For me, the interesting bit is the sheer number of Irish fans who also have the same mindset. I suppose it's because there is a lack of transparency when it comes to Irish rugby finances. But you'd think that when somebody actually bothers to poke the transparency and present researchh, they'd listen. Unless of course:

1) They're in denial.
2) They don't want the real figures to be revealed.

In Marty's defence, in this thread at least, he is right to point out that I was quoting nonsense figures. That'll teach me for not concentrating.

That's what happens when you try to hard to find facts to prove your point

Ultimately all players and staff are contracted to the IRFU as they are the overall owners and paymasters of the provinces, this was a fact that the IRFU were happy to point out to Ulster and Connacht over the Payne/Henshaw to Leinster rumours but what your not getting that is if all Irish provincial players are contracted to the IRFU why would there be a need to have central contracts?

Some are contracted to the IRFU and some to the provincial branches of the IRFU

Its nice to see Chunky complaining about transparency when you've been able to use figures from both Leinsters and the IRFUs accounts, short of a complete breakdown of the each cost Im not sure what he expects

He's really not.

Chunky Norwich wrote:He's really not.

Well his counsin is playing for them now, so he has some connection.

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:He's really not.

Well his counsin is playing for them now, so he has some connection.

He's from Pontyberem, most people are his cousin.

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:IRFU refs don't have contracts

Who pays them to ref then ?

Sin é wrote:All of them have other jobs

So they are not full time professional referee's then ? Well that explains a lot.

Match day costs - league / tournament they are reffing in.

Why would the WRU pay Nigel Owens (who is much in demand) to ref NZ v SA for example?

So why do certain refs come under certain branches in Ireland then ?

Another nice diversion though, this.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Another nice diversion though, this.

You do realise it was LD who brought it up

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Another nice diversion though, this.

You do realise it was LD who brought it up

Sin brought Nigel Owens into it. Which is wholly irrelevant, as we don't have full Union run rugby in Wales. Another reason why the PrO'12 is unworkable.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:IRFU refs don't have contracts

Who pays them to ref then ?

Sin é wrote:All of them have other jobs

So they are not full time professional referee's then ? Well that explains a lot.

Match day costs - league / tournament they are reffing in.

Why would the WRU pay Nigel Owens (who is much in demand) to ref NZ v SA for example?

So why do certain refs come under certain branches in Ireland then ?

Because that is how rugby is organised in Ireland - there are four branches.
(for the record, Alan Lewis was a Leinster ref, but is from Munster).