PRO12 has new Managing Director and he isn't Irish :D :yahoo:

First topic message reminder :

Welcome Martin Anayi, you are going to have your hands full.

Read more at http://www.pro12rugby.com/news/17587.php#kJPQdWr0F2UKZ8DF.99

marty2086 wrote:

Yes it is comparable because as 50% owners they have a say in who runs it

Let me know how they do that without a seat on the board, any say in the day to day running of the company and no ownership of the business that pays the wages.

Thanks in advance.

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

The Irish referees are no more or less colleagues of the provinces than the welsh referees are with the regions.

Totally untrue as no Welsh rugby player is solely employed by the WRU.

Those on dual contracts at the Dragons are about 80% employed by the WRU

No, it's clearly 60%. That's what the contracts state.

marty2086 wrote:

Its no semantics, WRU own half of the Dragons and would have had to invest capital into them to take them out of administration and gain their sharehold. Maybe they are passive shareholders but they are entitled to half the profits from the business.

Your season ticket does not entitle you to dividends the WRUs shares do

They are not in administration. Were they in administration ANY new owner would have to invest capital, that new owner need not be the WRU. The business makes no profits, its not even the cost centre to run the organisation.

You really need to study the company structure as what you're writing is utter horsecachu

marty2086 wrote:

Its no semantics, WRU own half of the Dragons and would have had to invest capital into them to take them out of administration and gain their sharehold. Maybe they are passive shareholders but they are entitled to half the profits from the business.

Your season ticket does not entitle you to dividends the WRUs shares do

Wrong again WRU only hold the 50% share in trust after it was relinquished by Ebbw Vale. All capital,assets,profits,and contra ts are held by Rodney Parade Ltd. The WRU have neither invested,nor are entitled to a penny.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Its no semantics, WRU own half of the Dragons and would have had to invest capital into them to take them out of administration and gain their sharehold. Maybe they are passive shareholders but they are entitled to half the profits from the business.

Your season ticket does not entitle you to dividends the WRUs shares do

They are not in administration. Were they in administration ANY new owner would have to invest capital, that new owner need not be the WRU. The business makes no profits, its not even the cost centre to run the organisation.

You really need to study the company structure as what you're writing is utter horsecachu

In its early days the Dragons went into administration due to the dispute over name, control etc. The WRU stepped in and took control along with Newport RFC and as they are a Limited company they are designed to make a profit, by not taking out what any other investor would they are In effect investing in it

marty2086 wrote:

In its early days the Dragons went into administration due to the dispute over name, control etc. The WRU stepped in and took control along with Newport RFC and as they are a Limited company they are designed to make a profit, by not taking out what any other investor would they are In effect investing in it

Yes, I'm fully aware of the history of Welsh rugby, my friend.

Your view on company structure is rather skewed and incorrect, however. No investor can 'take out' unless it makes a profit in this regard but no profit is made.

The cost base of the business doesn't even exist in the company of which the WRU owns 50%.

Hence, you're writing horsecachu.

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Its no semantics, WRU own half of the Dragons and would have had to invest capital into them to take them out of administration and gain their sharehold. Maybe they are passive shareholders but they are entitled to half the profits from the business.

Your season ticket does not entitle you to dividends the WRUs shares do

Wrong again WRU only hold the 50% share in trust after it was relinquished by Ebbw Vale. All capital,assets,profits,and contra ts are held by Rodney Parade Ltd. The WRU have neither invested,nor are entitled to a penny.

Not quite true.

The assets are held by Newport Rugby Football Club Ltd.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

In its early days the Dragons went into administration due to the dispute over name, control etc. The WRU stepped in and took control along with Newport RFC and as they are a Limited company they are designed to make a profit, by not taking out what any other investor would they are In effect investing in it

Yes, I'm fully aware of the history of Welsh rugby, my friend.

Your view on company structure is rather skewed and incorrect, however. No investor can 'take out' unless it makes a profit in this regard but no profit is made.

The cost base of the business doesn't even exist in the company of which the WRU owns 50%.

Hence, you're writing horsecachu.

Have you ever read a balance sheet for a limited company?

A formal agreement has been reached with the administrator to secure the future of the Gwent Dragons.

Newport RFC and the Welsh Rugby Union have agreed to form a new four-man board that will see ownership be split 50-50 between the two entities to form a new company, Dragons Rugby Ltd.

A limited company

The regional team was formed six months ago with input from Newport and Ebbw Vale, but the two clubs fell out and the Dragons went into administration last week.

As part of the deal, it has been agreed that Tony Brown will provide additional funds to the new regional team until the end of the 2005/6 season.

The four nominated board members for Dragons Rugby Ltd will be Tony Brown and Martyn Hazell, representing Newport RFC, and David Pickering and Steve Lewis, representing the WRU.

The WRU don't appoint board members?

David Pickering will act as chairman.

WRU general manager Steve Lewis told the WRU website: "This is not a situation that was created by the Union, but one which we have inherited. We see ourselves acting as the trustee shareholders on the board of Dragons Rugby Ltd for the rest of the rugby clubs in the region.

"Moreover, we intend to ensure that the best interests of the team and the game are served throughout the whole region.

"The team will be officially known as the Newport Gwent Dragons, but will be marketed as the Dragons.

"All the contracts of the current players and team management will revert to the new company and everyone involved with the new board is totally committed to the regional rugby concept."

marty2086 wrote:

Have you ever read a balance sheet for a limited company?

Many times, thanks.

Ever read the accounts for the one you're writing about?

marty2086 wrote:A formal agreement has been reached with the administrator to secure the future of the Gwent Dragons.

Newport RFC and the Welsh Rugby Union have agreed to form a new four-man board that will see ownership be split 50-50 between the two entities to form a new company, Dragons Rugby Ltd.

A limited company

The regional team was formed six months ago with input from Newport and Ebbw Vale, but the two clubs fell out and the Dragons went into administration last week.

As part of the deal, it has been agreed that Tony Brown will provide additional funds to the new regional team until the end of the 2005/6 season.

The four nominated board members for Dragons Rugby Ltd will be Tony Brown and Martyn Hazell, representing Newport RFC, and David Pickering and Steve Lewis, representing the WRU.

The WRU don't appoint board members?

David Pickering will act as chairman.

WRU general manager Steve Lewis told the WRU website: "This is not a situation that was created by the Union, but one which we have inherited. We see ourselves acting as the trustee shareholders on the board of Dragons Rugby Ltd for the rest of the rugby clubs in the region.

"Moreover, we intend to ensure that the best interests of the team and the game are served throughout the whole region.

"The team will be officially known as the Newport Gwent Dragons, but will be marketed as the Dragons.

"All the contracts of the current players and team management will revert to the new company and everyone involved with the new board is totally committed to the regional rugby concept."

Do you realise that changed a little while ago? Is your finger on the pulse of Welsh rugby?

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Its no semantics, WRU own half of the Dragons and would have had to invest capital into them to take them out of administration and gain their sharehold. Maybe they are passive shareholders but they are entitled to half the profits from the business.

Your season ticket does not entitle you to dividends the WRUs shares do

Wrong again WRU only hold the 50% share in trust after it was relinquished by Ebbw Vale. All capital,assets,profits,and contra ts are held by Rodney Parade Ltd. The WRU have neither invested,nor are entitled to a penny.

Interesting.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:A formal agreement has been reached with the administrator to secure the future of the Gwent Dragons.

Newport RFC and the Welsh Rugby Union have agreed to form a new four-man board that will see ownership be split 50-50 between the two entities to form a new company, Dragons Rugby Ltd.

A limited company

The regional team was formed six months ago with input from Newport and Ebbw Vale, but the two clubs fell out and the Dragons went into administration last week.

As part of the deal, it has been agreed that Tony Brown will provide additional funds to the new regional team until the end of the 2005/6 season.

The four nominated board members for Dragons Rugby Ltd will be Tony Brown and Martyn Hazell, representing Newport RFC, and David Pickering and Steve Lewis, representing the WRU.

The WRU don't appoint board members?

David Pickering will act as chairman.

WRU general manager Steve Lewis told the WRU website: "This is not a situation that was created by the Union, but one which we have inherited. We see ourselves acting as the trustee shareholders on the board of Dragons Rugby Ltd for the rest of the rugby clubs in the region.

"Moreover, we intend to ensure that the best interests of the team and the game are served throughout the whole region.

"The team will be officially known as the Newport Gwent Dragons, but will be marketed as the Dragons.

"All the contracts of the current players and team management will revert to the new company and everyone involved with the new board is totally committed to the regional rugby concept."

Do you realise that changed a little while ago? Is your finger on the pulse of Welsh rugby?

Do you have a link to the current structure? Not questioning yourself PhilBB, just interested to see what structure they've put in place to run a professional club/region/entity/(insert arrangement here).

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Do you have a link to the current structure? Not questioning yourself PhilBB, just interested to see what structure they've put in place to run a professional club/region/entity/(insert arrangement here).

Companies House will allow you to download, free of charge, the Newport Rugby Football Club Ltd accounts, which shall explain it all.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:A formal agreement has been reached with the administrator to secure the future of the Gwent Dragons.

Newport RFC and the Welsh Rugby Union have agreed to form a new four-man board that will see ownership be split 50-50 between the two entities to form a new company, Dragons Rugby Ltd.

A limited company

The regional team was formed six months ago with input from Newport and Ebbw Vale, but the two clubs fell out and the Dragons went into administration last week.

As part of the deal, it has been agreed that Tony Brown will provide additional funds to the new regional team until the end of the 2005/6 season.

The four nominated board members for Dragons Rugby Ltd will be Tony Brown and Martyn Hazell, representing Newport RFC, and David Pickering and Steve Lewis, representing the WRU.

The WRU don't appoint board members?

David Pickering will act as chairman.

WRU general manager Steve Lewis told the WRU website: "This is not a situation that was created by the Union, but one which we have inherited. We see ourselves acting as the trustee shareholders on the board of Dragons Rugby Ltd for the rest of the rugby clubs in the region.

"Moreover, we intend to ensure that the best interests of the team and the game are served throughout the whole region.

"The team will be officially known as the Newport Gwent Dragons, but will be marketed as the Dragons.

"All the contracts of the current players and team management will revert to the new company and everyone involved with the new board is totally committed to the regional rugby concept."

Do you realise that changed a little while ago? Is your finger on the pulse of Welsh rugby?

Its all I think about night and day and as it was taken from a 12 year old article I realise its not current but as it was earlier stated that the WRU has no say in the running of the company with two board members previously appointed to represent them that's been shown to be false and as they have a 50% stake in the limited company they do in fact have a financial stake in the club and its success

marty2086 wrote:

Its all I think about night and day and as it was taken from a 12 year old article I realise its not current but as it was earlier stated that the WRU has no say in the running of the company with two board members previously appointed to represent them that's been shown to be false and as they have a 50% stake in the limited company they do in fact have a financial stake in the club and its success

"the WRU has no say in the running of the company' is present tense.

Your article is historical.

Shall we play spot the difference?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Its all I think about night and day and as it was taken from a 12 year old article I realise its not current but as it was earlier stated that the WRU has no say in the running of the company with two board members previously appointed to represent them that's been shown to be false and as they have a 50% stake in the limited company they do in fact have a financial stake in the club and its success

"the WRU has no say in the running of the company' is present tense.

Your article is historical.

Shall we play spot the difference?

So when did they give up their representatives on the board?

And as shareholders with capital invested they do have a say

marty2086 wrote:

So when did they give up their representatives on the board?

And as shareholders with capital invested they do have a say

They gave them up a good few years ago. They have no say on the day to day running, they have no board members and they do not use any influence. They hold the 1 share merely in trust for anybody to buy should they want to.

You'll note that the likes of Pickering, from your link, have thankfully left Welsh rugby.

If you want to be sure on this topic then, as suggested above, you can download the information (for free) from Companies House website.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

So when did they give up their representatives on the board?

And as shareholders with capital invested they do have a say

They gave them up a good few years ago. They have no say on the day to day running, they have no board members and they do not use any influence. They hold the 1 share merely in trust for anybody to buy should they want to.

You'll note that the likes of Pickering, from your link, have thankfully left Welsh rugby.

If you want to be sure on this topic then, as suggested above, you can download the information (for free) from Companies House website.

How do we know they don't use any influence?

marty2086 wrote:

How do we know they don't use any influence?

Because the Chairman of Newport Rugby Football Club ltd and the Chief Executive of Newport Rugby Football Club recently stated as much in a General Meeting of Newport Rugby Football Club ltd.

You can also contact Alex James, a Director of the Company, on twitter directly if you'd like confirmation.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

How do we know they don't use any influence?

Because the Chairman of Newport Rugby Football Club ltd and the Chief Executive of Newport Rugby Football Club recently stated as much in a General Meeting of Newport Rugby Football Club ltd.

You can also contact Alex James, a Director of the Company, on twitter directly if you'd like confirmation.

Well you have been provided with evidence of the IRFU NOT interfering in team selection in Ireland yet state otherwise how do I know they are being honest and not part of it all?

PhilBB wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Do you have a link to the current structure? Not questioning yourself PhilBB, just interested to see what structure they've put in place to run a professional club/region/entity/(insert arrangement here).

Companies House will allow you to download, free of charge, the Newport Rugby Football Club Ltd accounts, which shall explain it all.

cheers PhilBB - I find it tricky to chase after anything like that without having the actual entity name as usually there are legacy entities, similar entities, shells which can be confusing.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Do you have a link to the current structure? Not questioning yourself PhilBB, just interested to see what structure they've put in place to run a professional club/region/entity/(insert arrangement here).

Companies House will allow you to download, free of charge, the Newport Rugby Football Club Ltd accounts, which shall explain it all.

cheers PhilBB - I find it tricky to chase after anything like that without having the actual entity name as usually there are legacy entities, similar entities, shells which can be confusing.

Only the Dragons are Dragons Rugby Ltd

marty2086 wrote:
Well you have been provided with evidence of the IRFU NOT interfering in team selection in Ireland yet state otherwise how do I know they are being honest and not part of it all?

Sorry, mate, I've provided evidence of the IRFU doing exactly that.

If you want to accuse Company Directors of lying to shareholders then be my guest. I wouldn't make that accusation, however, if I were you.

marty2086 wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Do you have a link to the current structure? Not questioning yourself PhilBB, just interested to see what structure they've put in place to run a professional club/region/entity/(insert arrangement here).

Companies House will allow you to download, free of charge, the Newport Rugby Football Club Ltd accounts, which shall explain it all.

cheers PhilBB - I find it tricky to chase after anything like that without having the actual entity name as usually there are legacy entities, similar entities, shells which can be confusing.

Only the Dragons are Dragons Rugby Ltd

That's part of the group. The assets are held in Newport Rugby Football Club ltd, which you'd know if you had actually seen the accounts instead of working off 12 year old articles.

Do some research, honestly, you'll change your opinion.

Ok that makes a bit more sense, so this is set up so that Newport RFC can keep the grounds in a separate legal entity to the 'Dragons region' in case they ever want to let Dragons go pop without loosing the house.

Did Dragons need emergency funding at some stage the season before last? Looked like something unusual went in and out in may '14 year end accounts (last available on companies house).

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Ok that makes a bit more sense, so this is set up so that Newport RFC can keep the grounds in a separate legal entity to the 'Dragons region' in case they ever want to let Dragons go pop without loosing the house.

Did Dragons need emergency funding at some stage the season before last? Looked like something unusual went in and out in may '14 year end accounts (last available on companies house).

To a degree, but the house is still mortgaged to pay for the salary costs of the NGD as these exist in Newport RFC ltd.

They always need emergency funding. There was a charge taken on RP by Godfrey at the end of last year.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Well you have been provided with evidence of the IRFU NOT interfering in team selection in Ireland yet state otherwise how do I know they are being honest and not part of it all?

Sorry, mate, I've provided evidence of the IRFU doing exactly that.

If you want to accuse Company Directors of lying to shareholders then be my guest. I wouldn't make that accusation, however, if I were you.

No you havnt you have said that the IRFU have interfered in team selection, you cant provide anything other than MOC complaining about the Player Management System and blaming it for their loss, though he didnt have that handy the following week when they lost to Ulster.

If you go further back you'll find someone else complaining about it...Joe Schmidt only difference is he was saying his job would be easier if it wasnt in place he didnt use it to try to hide his failures

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Do you have a link to the current structure? Not questioning yourself PhilBB, just interested to see what structure they've put in place to run a professional club/region/entity/(insert arrangement here).

Companies House will allow you to download, free of charge, the Newport Rugby Football Club Ltd accounts, which shall explain it all.

cheers PhilBB - I find it tricky to chase after anything like that without having the actual entity name as usually there are legacy entities, similar entities, shells which can be confusing.

Only the Dragons are Dragons Rugby Ltd

That's part of the group. The assets are held in Newport Rugby Football Club ltd, which you'd know if you had actually seen the accounts instead of working off 12 year old articles.

Do some research, honestly, you'll change your opinion.

Actually I have seen the accounts and there are two shareholders listed, Newport RFC and (what I can only presume is a typo) Welsh Union but then again I havnt seen them

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Well you have been provided with evidence of the IRFU NOT interfering in team selection in Ireland yet state otherwise how do I know they are being honest and not part of it all?

Sorry, mate, I've provided evidence of the IRFU doing exactly that.

If you want to accuse Company Directors of lying to shareholders then be my guest. I wouldn't make that accusation, however, if I were you.

No you havnt you have said that the IRFU have interfered in team selection, you cant provide anything other than MOC complaining about the Player Management System and blaming it for their loss, though he didnt have that handy the following week when they lost to Ulster.

If you go further back you'll find someone else complaining about it...Joe Schmidt only difference is he was saying his job would be easier if it wasnt in place he didnt use it to try to hide his failures

Leinster get hit the hardest when it comes to losing players to Ireland call up. I'm fairy sure that is what MOC was complaining/making excuses about. Something that we all experience to some extent.

Yet again the facts being wrongly interpreted.

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Well you have been provided with evidence of the IRFU NOT interfering in team selection in Ireland yet state otherwise how do I know they are being honest and not part of it all?

Sorry, mate, I've provided evidence of the IRFU doing exactly that.

If you want to accuse Company Directors of lying to shareholders then be my guest. I wouldn't make that accusation, however, if I were you.

No you havnt you have said that the IRFU have interfered in team selection, you cant provide anything other than MOC complaining about the Player Management System and blaming it for their loss, though he didnt have that handy the following week when they lost to Ulster.

If you go further back you'll find someone else complaining about it...Joe Schmidt only difference is he was saying his job would be easier if it wasnt in place he didnt use it to try to hide his failures

Leinster get hit the hardest when it comes to losing players to Ireland call up. I'm fairy sure that is what MOC was complaining/making excuses about. Something that we all experience to some extent.

Yet again the facts being wrongly interpreted.

Exactly and Phils tried to use the first game against the Dragons too, a week after the 6Ns finished when guys like Heaslip werent released because they'd just done 5 big games and were rested, as proof the IRFU prevent players playing. Maybe they should have arranged another game and made them unavailable that way like some unions do

I know, Marty. It's always the same accusations, based on little other than wanting something to be true. You would think those making the accusations would first look for rational explanations, but some don't do 'rational'.

Apparently there is no direct translation for the word "rational" in Welsh.

Or a few of them are drinking the same dodgy beer

Munchkin wrote: I'm fairy sure that is what MOC was complaining/making excuses about.

O'gay

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote: I'm fairy sure that is what MOC was complaining/making excuses about.

O'gay

Ha! very good, Stone. Nice spot

Here's a list of Dragons rugby directors and officers. You'll note that the WRU guys (Pickering and Steve Lewis) resigned as directors in 2004. All 9 current are Dragons and Newport bods.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/04959513/officers

marty2086 wrote:

No you havnt you have said that the IRFU have interfered in team selection, you cant provide anything other than MOC complaining about the Player Management System and blaming it for their loss, though he didnt have that handy the following week when they lost to Ulster.

If you go further back you'll find someone else complaining about it...Joe Schmidt only difference is he was saying his job would be easier if it wasnt in place he didnt use it to try to hide his failures

You can't spot the contradiction there?

marty2086 wrote:

Actually I have seen the accounts and there are two shareholders listed, Newport RFC and (what I can only presume is a typo) Welsh Union but then again I havnt seen them

Another contradiction.

It's the NRFC accounts that you need to see

Munchkin wrote:I know, Marty. It's always the same accusations, based on little other than wanting something to be true. You would think those making the accusations would first look for rational explanations, but some don't do 'rational'.

This is a lovely chat.

IRFU prevents coach from picking players he wants is not, in Ireland, evidence that the IRFU interferes with a coach picking the players he wants.

Marvellous work, lads, marvellous.

Griff wrote:Here's a list of Dragons rugby directors and officers. You'll note that the WRU guys (Pickering and Steve Lewis) resigned as directors in 2004. All 9 current are Dragons and Newport bods.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/04959513/officers

Ouch.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I know, Marty. It's always the same accusations, based on little other than wanting something to be true. You would think those making the accusations would first look for rational explanations, but some don't do 'rational'.

This is a lovely chat.

IRFU prevents coach from picking players he wants is not, in Ireland, evidence that the IRFU interferes with a coach picking the players he wants.

Marvellous work, lads, marvellous.

Yes the IRFU places limits that stops coaches picking a handful of players at times, its so bad that the WRU have adopted a similar approach

It harms the league because many of these players play more games than a number England and Frances front line players

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I know, Marty. It's always the same accusations, based on little other than wanting something to be true. You would think those making the accusations would first look for rational explanations, but some don't do 'rational'.

This is a lovely chat.

IRFU prevents coach from picking players he wants is not, in Ireland, evidence that the IRFU interferes with a coach picking the players he wants.

Marvellous work, lads, marvellous.

What evidence? Players are called to training in the national side, and may go on to play for the national side. Players will also be rested after having come back from playing for the national side. This isn't unusual, and it's hardly unique to Ireland.

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I know, Marty. It's always the same accusations, based on little other than wanting something to be true. You would think those making the accusations would first look for rational explanations, but some don't do 'rational'.

This is a lovely chat.

IRFU prevents coach from picking players he wants is not, in Ireland, evidence that the IRFU interferes with a coach picking the players he wants.

Marvellous work, lads, marvellous.

What evidence? Players are called to training in the national side, and may go on to play for the national side. Players will also be rested after having come back from playing for the national side. This isn't unusual, and it's hardly unique to Ireland.

It seems some would like players flogged until they drop

Yes, some of Irelands players. Sure who cares about player welfare. Entertainment is of more value that health.

marty2086 wrote:

Yes the IRFU places limits that stops coaches picking a handful of players at times, its so bad that the WRU have adopted a similar approach

It harms the league because many of these players play more games than a number England and Frances front line players

Which players?

Munchkin wrote:
What evidence? Players are called to training in the national side, and may go on to play for the national side. Players will also be rested after having come back from playing for the national side. This isn't unusual, and it's hardly unique to Ireland.

So you do recognise the evidence after all.

marty2086 wrote:

It seems some would like players flogged until they drop

Oh dear.

This is quite simple: I believe that participants in a league should be owned by no third party that owns other participants and that players should be employed solely by league participants.

This is the basic requirement of a 'proper' league

Did those contributors ever look at that NRFC document & the other one view that Press Conference in line with that Senedd document?

Yes?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

It seems some would like players flogged until they drop

Oh dear.

This is quite simple: I believe that participants in a league should be owned by no third party that owns other participants and that players should be employed solely by league participants.

This is the basic requirement of a 'proper' league

And yet it happens everywhere so how does it diminish the league?