South Africa v Wales - 2nd Test, Nelspruit

by **Pal Joey** Sat 21 Jun 2014, 12:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

South Africa:
15 Willie le Roux, 14 Cornal Hendricks, 13 JP Pietersen, 12 Jan Serfontein, 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Morné Steyn, 9 Fourie du Preez, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Willem Alberts, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Victor Matfield (c), 4 Flip van der Merwe ,3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Bismarck du Plessis, 1 Tendai Mtawarira.

Replacements:
16 Schalk Brits, 17 Gurthrö Steenkamp, 18 Coenie Oosthuizen, 19 Lodewyk de Jager, 20 Schalk Burger, 21 Ruan Pienaar, 22 Wynand Olivier,
23 Lwazi Mvovo.

Wales:
15 Liam Williams, 14 Alex Cuthbert, 13 Jonathan Davies, 12 Jamie Roberts, 11 George North, 10 Dan Biggar, 9 Mike Phillips
8 Taulupe Faletau, 7 Josh Turnbull, 6 Dan Lydiate, 5 Alun-Wyn Jones (c), 4 Luke Charteris, 3 Samson Lee, 2 Ken Owens, 1 Gethin Jenkins

Replacements:
16 Matthew Rees, 17 Paul James, 18 Aaron Jarvis, 19 Jake Ball, 20 Dan Baker, 21 Gareth Davies, 22 James Hook, 23 Matthew Morgan

Date: Saturday, June 21
Venue: Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
Kick-off: 15.00 (13.00 GMT)
Referee: Steve Walsh (Australia)
Assistant referees: Romain Poite (France), Francesco Pastrana (Argentina)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

by Scratch Sat 21 Jun 2014, 6:08 pm

Honestly felt that we didn't miss leigh Halfpenny for the entire tour, until that last tackle by Williams.

Is the performance enough, until the manner of our losing became apparent i would have said yes. The first half was imperious but even with a hefty lead we still make infantile decisions in defense. Biggar: Didn't we learn v Aus 2012 not to take a maul down? And while we get 2 yellows and hand momentum and 14 points to SA, they know that they are forcing poor decision making by putting us under pressure. What we should have been doing is slowing the game, playing for territory and pinning SA back in field. So of rme the 10s decisions cost us dear, with a 7 pointer and a ridiculous attempt at a dg.

When we conceded that last penalty i knew we would lose. That exactly describes the problem with Wales and it is now tattooed in even the fans psyche. It's as much a mental game as a physical one and that is our achilles heel at the moment.

We showed, cliche it may be, that we can beat the big boys up, what we can't do is steal their lunch money and kiss their girlfriends yet.

by Guest Sat 21 Jun 2014, 6:09 pm

But it is a hypothetical, "if the player wasn't there would he have scored?"

Anyway I'm done on this, well played Springboks, clinical when they needed to be, did enough to win.

by Taylorman Sat 21 Jun 2014, 6:09 pm

the thing with Williams is the intent was there, he got himself into a position that he could have stopped the try, so theres no doubting his commitment. Its just his execution that was poor. Seen many a try scored vs Wales when no one was there so I wouldnt be too hasty in creating a scapegoat to the extent he no longer plays. Hes got things to work on, as have most players.

by **Notch** Sat 21 Jun 2014, 6:22 pm

IronMike wrote:But it is a hypothetical, "if the player wasn't there would he have scored?"

Yep, precisely that. Because the players actions are fixed so if he performs an illegal action its basically what would have happened if he wasn't there at all not what would have happened if he performed a different action.

by milkyboy Sat 21 Jun 2014, 6:26 pm

I'm with notch... I understand the concept of the 'taking the player out of the equation' rule, but to me it's a bit of a red herring. The rule's the same... no different really to collapsing scrum/maul etc. if you stop a certain try with foul play its a penalty try. Whether the player could have otherwise stopped the try with a fair tackle is irrelevant, the moment he chose not to. It's like saying the 'scrum that collapsed could have stayed up and pushed a bit harder' etc.

Its harsh on Williams bacause I'm not sure it think was planned thuggery... More an instinctive thing to bundle the winger into touch, but it's an illegal tackle and Walsh had no choice after he'd gone upstairs to have a look.

by Guest Sat 21 Jun 2014, 6:34 pm

It's not a thuggish act (I don't think). He's instinctively trying to protect himself and doesn't intentionally shoulder charge him. I think that's why he didn't get a card (or maybe it was due to the time of the incident). I don't have any issues with the penalty try though, as I knew it was going to be given and if it had happened on Cuthbert or whoever, I would've been screaming for it.

Well done SA. Shows the measure of a team when you can't even feel comfortable holding a lead like we had twice. I am very disappointed with the DG farces at the end and think Gatland is right when he says we should've managed that better (though it is ironic mentioning side to side rugby, when it is generally used by him/Howley).

by Scratch Sat 21 Jun 2014, 6:47 pm

Fact i s he didn't back himself to make the tackle correctly. A fullback si the last line of defense. He has to be an expert tackler. Even if he wasn't going to try and drive him into the flag he should have got on his back and tried to turn him over, his technique deserted him completely because his decision was wrong. Leigh Halfpenny would have at least employed a tackle. Try no try and then a massive pressure conversion.

by **Biltong** Sat 21 Jun 2014, 7:06 pm

Scratch wrote:Honestly felt that we didn't miss leigh Halfpenny for the entire tour, until that last tackle by Williams.

Is the performance enough, until the manner of our losing became apparent i would have said yes. The first half was imperious but even with a hefty lead we still make infantile decisions in defense. Biggar: Didn't we learn v Aus 2012 not to take a maul down? And while we get 2 yellows and hand momentum and 14 points to SA, they know that they are forcing poor decision making by putting us under pressure. What we should have been doing is slowing the game, playing for territory and pinning SA back in field. So of rme the 10s decisions cost us dear, with a 7 pointer and a ridiculous attempt at a dg.

When we conceded that last penalty i knew we would lose. That exactly describes the problem with Wales and it is now tattooed in even the fans psyche. It's as much a mental game as a physical one and that is our achilles heel at the moment.

We showed, cliche it may be, that we can beat the big boys up, what we can't do is steal their lunch money and kiss their girlfriends yet.

But you did slow the game down significantly, during the seven minutes there were thirteen Welshman on the field, 5 minutes was taken up by reset scrums.

In the second half when Wales had the lead there was a break in play before every set piece due to an injury.

That stopped the Boks from gaining any rythm in the game.

by glamorganalun Sat 21 Jun 2014, 7:17 pm

Not sure why Williams is the scape goat, North again missed a tackle near the line at least Williams made a tackle legal or not. I watched the game on streaming so not a great video but I was not sure North was playing.

A much better performance by the team, ref had a good game.

Why can't Wales win a line out near the opposition line is it the coach who could (McBryde) not hit a barn door himself?

Turnbull was very good playing out of position, I still think Davies deserved the number 9 position but it was Phillips best game in three years for Wales.

I suspected when we were 13 points up near the end of the game I thought here we go again another 1 point loss.

by lostinwales Sat 21 Jun 2014, 7:18 pm

Lee has been cited for 'use of the head'

by Scratch Sat 21 Jun 2014, 7:22 pm

Biltong wrote:
Scratch wrote:Honestly felt that we didn't miss leigh Halfpenny for the entire tour, until that last tackle by Williams.

Is the performance enough, until the manner of our losing became apparent i would have said yes. The first half was imperious but even with a hefty lead we still make infantile decisions in defense. Biggar: Didn't we learn v Aus 2012 not to take a maul down? And while we get 2 yellows and hand momentum and 14 points to SA, they know that they are forcing poor decision making by putting us under pressure. What we should have been doing is slowing the game, playing for territory and pinning SA back in field. So of rme the 10s decisions cost us dear, with a 7 pointer and a ridiculous attempt at a dg.

When we conceded that last penalty i knew we would lose. That exactly describes the problem with Wales and it is now tattooed in even the fans psyche. It's as much a mental game as a physical one and that is our achilles heel at the moment.

We showed, cliche it may be, that we can beat the big boys up, what we can't do is steal their lunch money and kiss their girlfriends yet.

But you did slow the game down significantly, during the seven minutes there were thirteen Welshman on the field, 5 minutes was taken up by reset scrums.

In the second half when Wales had the lead there was a break in play before every set piece due to an injury.

That stopped the Boks from gaining any rythm in the game.

No rhythm? In that period we shipped 14 points….quite clearly we didn't upset rhythm or slow the Boks, on the contrary we created it by our own poor decisions. I just don't get why players consistently commit yellow card offenses which 3 officials and a TMO can now scrutinize. It's ridiculous.

And bilotng, i assume you are saying that every reset was Wales doing and every injury was an attempt to slow the game? Cynical actions indeed, as cynical as your post if that is the case

by **Biltong** Sat 21 Jun 2014, 7:24 pm

Scratch wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Scratch wrote:Honestly felt that we didn't miss leigh Halfpenny for the entire tour, until that last tackle by Williams.

Is the performance enough, until the manner of our losing became apparent i would have said yes. The first half was imperious but even with a hefty lead we still make infantile decisions in defense. Biggar: Didn't we learn v Aus 2012 not to take a maul down? And while we get 2 yellows and hand momentum and 14 points to SA, they know that they are forcing poor decision making by putting us under pressure. What we should have been doing is slowing the game, playing for territory and pinning SA back in field. So of rme the 10s decisions cost us dear, with a 7 pointer and a ridiculous attempt at a dg.

When we conceded that last penalty i knew we would lose. That exactly describes the problem with Wales and it is now tattooed in even the fans psyche. It's as much a mental game as a physical one and that is our achilles heel at the moment.

We showed, cliche it may be, that we can beat the big boys up, what we can't do is steal their lunch money and kiss their girlfriends yet.

But you did slow the game down significantly, during the seven minutes there were thirteen Welshman on the field, 5 minutes was taken up by reset scrums.

In the second half when Wales had the lead there was a break in play before every set piece due to an injury.

That stopped the Boks from gaining any rythm in the game.

No rhythm? In that period we shipped 14 points….quite clearly we didn't upset rhythm or slow the Boks, on the contrary we created it by our own poor decisions. I just don't get why players consistently commit yellow card offenses which 3 officials and a TMO can now scrutinize. It's ridiculous.

And bilotng, i assume you are saying that every reset was Wales doing and every injury was an attempt to slow the game? Cynical actions indeed, as cynical as your post if that is the case

watch the game again scratch, then we'll talk, in the second half just from memory there were three stoppages for an injury to a Welsh player preceding a set piece.

by **Notch** Sat 21 Jun 2014, 7:24 pm

You have to do this in the Southern Hemisphere. You have to break their momentum and frustrate them.

by Scratch Sat 21 Jun 2014, 7:28 pm

Biltong wrote:
Scratch wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Scratch wrote:Honestly felt that we didn't miss leigh Halfpenny for the entire tour, until that last tackle by Williams.

Is the performance enough, until the manner of our losing became apparent i would have said yes. The first half was imperious but even with a hefty lead we still make infantile decisions in defense. Biggar: Didn't we learn v Aus 2012 not to take a maul down? And while we get 2 yellows and hand momentum and 14 points to SA, they know that they are forcing poor decision making by putting us under pressure. What we should have been doing is slowing the game, playing for territory and pinning SA back in field. So of rme the 10s decisions cost us dear, with a 7 pointer and a ridiculous attempt at a dg.

When we conceded that last penalty i knew we would lose. That exactly describes the problem with Wales and it is now tattooed in even the fans psyche. It's as much a mental game as a physical one and that is our achilles heel at the moment.

We showed, cliche it may be, that we can beat the big boys up, what we can't do is steal their lunch money and kiss their girlfriends yet.

But you did slow the game down significantly, during the seven minutes there were thirteen Welshman on the field, 5 minutes was taken up by reset scrums.

In the second half when Wales had the lead there was a break in play before every set piece due to an injury.

That stopped the Boks from gaining any rythm in the game.

No rhythm? In that period we shipped 14 points….quite clearly we didn't upset rhythm or slow the Boks, on the contrary we created it by our own poor decisions. I just don't get why players consistently commit yellow card offenses which 3 officials and a TMO can now scrutinize. It's ridiculous.

And bilotng, i assume you are saying that every reset was Wales doing and every injury was an attempt to slow the game? Cynical actions indeed, as cynical as your post if that is the case
watch the game again scratch, then we'll talk, in the second half just from memory there were three stoppages for an injury to a Welsh player preceding a set piece.

? you watch the game again, we did not slow the bok gem at all if we shipped 14 points and stop being so sanctimonious Biltong. You can't win gracefully can you. picard

by **Biltong** Sat 21 Jun 2014, 7:30 pm

Scratch wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Scratch wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Scratch wrote:Honestly felt that we didn't miss leigh Halfpenny for the entire tour, until that last tackle by Williams.

Is the performance enough, until the manner of our losing became apparent i would have said yes. The first half was imperious but even with a hefty lead we still make infantile decisions in defense. Biggar: Didn't we learn v Aus 2012 not to take a maul down? And while we get 2 yellows and hand momentum and 14 points to SA, they know that they are forcing poor decision making by putting us under pressure. What we should have been doing is slowing the game, playing for territory and pinning SA back in field. So of rme the 10s decisions cost us dear, with a 7 pointer and a ridiculous attempt at a dg.

When we conceded that last penalty i knew we would lose. That exactly describes the problem with Wales and it is now tattooed in even the fans psyche. It's as much a mental game as a physical one and that is our achilles heel at the moment.

We showed, cliche it may be, that we can beat the big boys up, what we can't do is steal their lunch money and kiss their girlfriends yet.

But you did slow the game down significantly, during the seven minutes there were thirteen Welshman on the field, 5 minutes was taken up by reset scrums.

In the second half when Wales had the lead there was a break in play before every set piece due to an injury.

That stopped the Boks from gaining any rythm in the game.

No rhythm? In that period we shipped 14 points….quite clearly we didn't upset rhythm or slow the Boks, on the contrary we created it by our own poor decisions. I just don't get why players consistently commit yellow card offenses which 3 officials and a TMO can now scrutinize. It's ridiculous.

And bilotng, i assume you are saying that every reset was Wales doing and every injury was an attempt to slow the game? Cynical actions indeed, as cynical as your post if that is the case
watch the game again scratch, then we'll talk, in the second half just from memory there were three stoppages for an injury to a Welsh player preceding a set piece.

? you watch the game again, we did not slow the bok gem at all if we shipped 14 points and stop being so sanctimonious Biltong. You can't win gracefully can you.

Gracious?

You suggested Wales should have slowed the game down, I told you they did, now I am being ungracious and cynical?

When you want to discuss rugby in a mature manner I will discuss it with you, until then, ......

by Scratch Sat 21 Jun 2014, 7:40 pm

Biltong wrote:
Scratch wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Scratch wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Scratch wrote:Honestly felt that we didn't miss leigh Halfpenny for the entire tour, until that last tackle by Williams.

Is the performance enough, until the manner of our losing became apparent i would have said yes. The first half was imperious but even with a hefty lead we still make infantile decisions in defense. Biggar: Didn't we learn v Aus 2012 not to take a maul down? And while we get 2 yellows and hand momentum and 14 points to SA, they know that they are forcing poor decision making by putting us under pressure. What we should have been doing is slowing the game, playing for territory and pinning SA back in field. So of rme the 10s decisions cost us dear, with a 7 pointer and a ridiculous attempt at a dg.

When we conceded that last penalty i knew we would lose. That exactly describes the problem with Wales and it is now tattooed in even the fans psyche. It's as much a mental game as a physical one and that is our achilles heel at the moment.

We showed, cliche it may be, that we can beat the big boys up, what we can't do is steal their lunch money and kiss their girlfriends yet.

But you did slow the game down significantly, during the seven minutes there were thirteen Welshman on the field, 5 minutes was taken up by reset scrums.

In the second half when Wales had the lead there was a break in play before every set piece due to an injury.

That stopped the Boks from gaining any rythm in the game.

No rhythm? In that period we shipped 14 points….quite clearly we didn't upset rhythm or slow the Boks, on the contrary we created it by our own poor decisions. I just don't get why players consistently commit yellow card offenses which 3 officials and a TMO can now scrutinize. It's ridiculous.

And bilotng, i assume you are saying that every reset was Wales doing and every injury was an attempt to slow the game? Cynical actions indeed, as cynical as your post if that is the case
watch the game again scratch, then we'll talk, in the second half just from memory there were three stoppages for an injury to a Welsh player preceding a set piece.

? you watch the game again, we did not slow the bok gem at all if we shipped 14 points and stop being so sanctimonious Biltong. You can't win gracefully can you.

Gracious?

You suggested Wales should have slowed the game down, I told you they did, now I am being ungracious and cynical?

When you want to discuss rugby in a mature manner I will discuss it with you, until then, ......

You don't want to discuss, you just want to drop in cyclical comments about deliberately slowing the game disguised as analysis. You were beaten today all over the park, it was Wales failure to make correct decisions that cost them and they obviously did not slow the game enough to prevent SA scoring 14 points when they had 2 binned off. Your reply suggesting we were slowing the game was not very cleverly concealed.

Therefore you are ungracious in victory and now you are patronizing to boot.

Congratulations on you win, good job the ref made the right decision.

by geoff999rugby Sat 21 Jun 2014, 7:54 pm

As good a game as I have seen Steve Walsh have.

How many games have Wales lost at the death in recent years - strikes me that they have a mental problem in closing out games.
Happens too often to be bad luck

by Guest Sat 21 Jun 2014, 8:09 pm

To be fair the only injuries Wales were stopping for was for bandaging up Ken Owens' cut and AWJ after being tipped in the air by van der Merwe

by Blueschief Sat 21 Jun 2014, 8:16 pm

That was great, gutting but great ...... I'm almost wishing we had a third test

by sad_gimp Sat 21 Jun 2014, 8:25 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:As good a game as I have seen Steve Walsh have.

How many games have Wales lost at the death in recent years - strikes me that they have a mental problem in closing out games.
Happens too often to be bad luck

Have to agree. Walsh was clear and everyone knew what was expected of them.

Wales panicked. The last few minutes the forwards lost composure and were too static, when they went backwards as a result they grasped at a DG that was never on.

Once Wales break this hoodoo just once they will be a force to be reckoned with, but they just need some composure to see out a SH test.

by MMaaxx Sat 21 Jun 2014, 8:31 pm

To be fair Wales would have been incredibly stupid if they did not try slow down the game when down to 13 (which they clearly did).

This game reminded me of the RWC match. Wales could not have played better, the Boks could not have played worse yet they still won. Sign of a top team.

It also showed that the Boks do miss a guy like Bakkis or Juan Smith who start every match at full tilt, aggression and tempo. It also showed the value of cool experienced heads in the team like Matfield etc.

Scratch: Biltong is as fair a poster as you can wish to find on these sites. Straight down the middle. Sure you are sensitive because you lost but keep your panties on...

by **Biltong** Sat 21 Jun 2014, 8:34 pm

I think Alberts need a rest, he seems tired and is not making his usual impact.

Burger sad to say has had it, he is no longer the beast he was.

Morne Steyn is kak, can't hit a hole through a wet paperbag, too slow and no vision.

Flip v d Merwe is a yellow card waiting to happen.

by **Biltong** Sat 21 Jun 2014, 8:36 pm

Another thing, almost to the day a year ago we played Scotland at the same venue, had the exact same issues we had today, slow start, poor at the breakdowns and poor in defence with our attack full of unforced errors.

Do we go on the walk about when we are that close to the Wild life, or are we simply underestimating our opponents?

What ever the case is, you never, ever go into a match without the attitude that you want to pummel your opponent.

by MMaaxx Sat 21 Jun 2014, 8:47 pm

Hi Biltong, I was about to mention the same about Alberts and also bring up the Scottish game. I agree about Schalk too (although he has never been a SA rugby hero for me) especially with the younger talent at flank in the country.

Our loose trio is great but lacks a bit of guile (brains?) It is a pity that Botha has injuries as I thought he could have been that missing dimension.

I mentioned on an earlier post that matches against tier 1 teams excluding Italy and maybe Scotland should always be in Pretoria, JHB, Durban or Cape Town. I honestly think matches do not have that big test feel and build up at the smaller venues.

All is all, even though today did not go as planned (Wales were superb) I am feeling good considering the players missing, depth etc. Also I think we are better off after this shock

by **Biltong** Sat 21 Jun 2014, 8:55 pm

Maxx, to be honest I am not very happy.

I have a serious issue with a few things.

Overseas players, I just don't see the benefit of them, Meyer may think we need experienced players going to the world cup, but if he gave youngsters a chance in all positions we would have had that experience come world cup.

Sure there are some youngsters in the squad and a few injured, but why not give Lood de Jager more game time, why no Cobus Reinach or for that matter Francois Hougaard at 9?

Why does he persist with Morne Steyn, why not give Marnitz Boshoff a chance?

Our halfback combination is of great concern to me, we aren't building continuity or depth by persisting with the old guard.

Why no Sithole on the bench instead of Wynand Olivier?

Meyer is going to go into the World Cup with a bunch of overseas players that should not be playing for us.

by milkyboy Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:01 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:As good a game as I have seen Steve Walsh have.

How many games have Wales lost at the death in recent years - strikes me that they have a mental problem in closing out games.
Happens too often to be bad luck

May well be true, but its a bit like saying, that's the best commentary performance I've heard from Stuart Barnes.

by Scratch Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:09 pm

IronMike wrote:To be fair the only injuries Wales were stopping for was for bandaging up Ken Owens' cut and AWJ after being tipped in the air by van der Merwe

Lets not let facts get in the way.

The challenge on AWJ was about as cynical as one can get, and since Kenny was being bandaged while the thug tackler was in the bin there would be no interest in Wales slowing the game down.

Great to see how gracious AWJ was in a crushing defeat especially regarding Matfield's achievement. Two old warhorses.

We won't be claiming any moral or other victories, a gallant loss is still a loss but at least we lose with grace

As someone else said here once the large elephant in the room is shot between the eyes, Wales ought to/can be a formidable force. It confuses me why we can't play with this level of intensity, dare i say passion, every game.

Roll on the autumn and now with a new cadre blooded it will be time to break our duck. Then onto a glorious 6 Nations and hopefully England's rugby team, who started well in NZ but ended on a downward curve, will do what their football team just did.

by milkyboy Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:09 pm

Biltong wrote:Maxx, to be honest I am not very happy. I have a serious issue...

Why no Sithole on the bench?

Maybe in the professional era they think its more appropriate to use indoor facilities for 'comfort breaks'

by Scratch Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:11 pm

milkyboy wrote:
Biltong wrote:Maxx, to be honest I am not very happy. I have a serious issue...

Why no Sithole on the bench?

Maybe in the professional era they think its more appropriate to use indoor facilities for 'comfort breaks'

Post of the year, well played. Laugh

by MMaaxx Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:17 pm

I am not happy with the performance today but am happy with what is potentially coming together.

Meyer is big on experience, big on structure and big on big size.

They are his hallmarks and have served him well so understandably he sticks to them.

SA is results driven especially when it comes to Rugby. There is NO room for experimenting and failure. It is limiting but it is what it is.

I agree regarding Wynand, Pienaar.

On overseas players in general, if they are clearly the best in the position then I am happy to select them as in the case with Habana and du Preez. Where there are local alternatives that are as good then I agree, select Reinach, Sithole etc.

F Steyn to me was a key player. Him and Willie in the back line gives SA all the creative output they need and enhance the kicking options. With them, we can afford to have a more limited 10 like Steyn. My choice at 10 would be Lambie as I think Goosen is flaky, mentally weak and obviously injury prone.

A back line of du Preez, Lambie, Habana, F Steyn, J Fourie, JPP and Willie would be my ideal choice.

I am concerned about the front row outside of hooker as we really only have Beast and Doc Jannie (who as we know has his limitations in the scrums and defence).

Lock we are covered and I imagine a Etzebeth and Matfield combo would be HM first choice.

At flank as usual we are spoilt for choice but I would like to see more cover for Louw. White seems to have improved Coetzee but he is just not the same.

As I have said before, if HM keeps on evolving the Boks and adding a bit here and there then I am sure we are moving in the right direction.

If you have the time I would actually be interested in knowing your ideal 15 with a replacement for each. It's always interesting.

by kingraf Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:19 pm

I personally haven't been happy about the Meyer era... Just seems rather backwards. PdV was heavily criticized for not blooding new talent in 2008 - Six years later, it's still the class of 2007. The Good lord knows Os du Randt would also walk into the side if he got of his tractor in die VryStaat. S' burra Sithole is one half of the countries' best S15 centre pairing... but more than just not starting, the guy playing 13 is the guy he forced out to wing, or perhaps keeps out in the wing at S15... Fair enough to bring up his winning %, but 15% of his matches will be against a rather poor Argie side every year.

by **Pal Joey** Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:24 pm

Jeez... I picked the right time to fall asleep. Will have to watch the replay later today.
Feel so sorry for Wales - what the hell happened after they led 17-0?

by **Biltong** Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:30 pm

My two alternatives for each position.

1. Coenie and Beast (Coenie is not a tight head)
2. Bismarck and Strauss.
3. Jannie and Malherbe
4. Eben and Lewies
5. Pieter Steph du Toit and Lood de Jager
6. Marcell Coetzee and Brussouw
7. Willem and Arno Botha (sadly Botha is injured, but when back we need rotation as Alberts need more rest)
8. Vermeulen and maybe Philip v d Walt
9. fourie Du Preez and Reinach
10. Lambie and take a chance with Pollard otherwise take a risk on Boshoff
11. Habana and Damien de Allende
12. Jan Serfontein and Jean de Villiers
13. JP Pietersen and Sithole
14. JJ Engelbrecht and Cornall Hendricks
15. Willie le Roux and Mvovo

by The Bachelor Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:31 pm

Taylorman wrote:the thing with Williams is the intent was there, he got himself into a position that he could have stopped the try, so theres no doubting his commitment. Its just his execution that was poor. Seen many a try scored vs Wales when no one was there so I wouldnt be too hasty in creating a scapegoat to the extent he no longer plays. Hes got things to work on, as have most players.

Yeah I'd say it was just bad execution as well (North's tackle was poor too). You have to admire the SH teams though; Wales played badly and got hammered last weekend, SA played badly this weekend and won.

by MMaaxx Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:38 pm

I think many of the problems Meyer faces is as a result of the PdV era.

I honestly do not think we have better wings than JPP and Habana. He has developed a new loose 3 unit with
Botha to be added. Etsabeth and PSduT could be a young locking unit that he has developed and who will learn from Matfield and Botha.

Du Preez has no peer but I agree a suitable back up has not been found.

Lambie seemed to have 10 his but was injured. I would not be surprised to see Pollard get time here.

As much as I like de Villiers and JJ (didn't work out) were being developed well complemented by Jan Serfontein. Fourie remains the best here who is unfortunately injured. Steyn was obviously a big part of HM's plans.

So while I agree to a point that some selections have been shockers (CJ comes to mind and Wynand this match) in general I think he has struck a good balance.

In SA with the depth available there will always be contentious picks etc and not everyone will be happy but in general HM has done well

by MMaaxx Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:45 pm

Nice choices Bilt but to me Louw and Fourie are overseas players that should be included.

I agree with Coenie and will always include Brussouw as he will never let SA down.

This lucky escape today will be good for the team this season. I expect seriously convincing wins for the rest of June.

by **Biltong** Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:46 pm

JJ is a great runner with ball in hand, but defensively he isn't a midfielder, he has pace to burn and should be a back up wing, JP Pietersen has lost his out and out pace, Ok he was never that fast, but he hit a gap and ran a good run for the first time this season.

You basically need a few playmakers, then you need a few crash ball runners, and then you need some pace.

Playmakers.
Jordaan, Lambie and Le Roux

Crashball runners
De Allende, Jean de Villiers, JP Pietersen, Serfontein.

Pacers.
Habana, Engelbrecht, Sithole, Hendricks, they can also step as well.

You take that lot to the world cup you have everything you need.

by Mr Fishpaste Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:48 pm

Biltong wrote:JJ is a great runner with ball in hand, but defensively he isn't a midfielder, he has pace to burn and should be a back up wing, JP Pietersen has lost his out and out pace, Ok he was never that fast, but he hit a gap and ran a good run for the first time this season.

You basically need a few playmakers, then you need a few crash ball runners, and then you need some pace.

Playmakers.
Jordaan, Lambie and Le Roux

Crashball runners
De Allende, Jean de Villiers, JP Pietersen, Serfontein.

Pacers.
Habana, Engelbrecht, Sithole, Hendricks, Mvovo they can also step as well.

You take that lot to the world cup you have everything you need.

by **Biltong** Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:52 pm

Mvovo worries me on defence.

If you look at the other options, they are all defensively sound.

by kingraf Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:57 pm

His defense has improved under White though

by **Biltong** Sat 21 Jun 2014, 9:59 pm

Yes, even his aerial skills have developed under White, but Basson has more pace than he does, and is better under the high ball, would actually prefer Aplon though.

by Mr Fishpaste Sat 21 Jun 2014, 10:01 pm

Biltong wrote:Mvovo worries me on defence.

If you look at the other options, they are all defensively sound.

Agreed: he's not the best of the lot on defence, but I would go so far as to say he's the fastest. He's able to beat people for sheer pace; run around the outside of opposition wingers even!

by kingraf Sat 21 Jun 2014, 10:21 pm

I like Mvovo, he can move, and no matter what sport you're playing... speed kills. Speaking of speed, Cheslin Kolbe and Sergeal Peterson are proper merchants, they look about 5'7 though, so I don't think they got a prayer getting in

by Taylorman Sat 21 Jun 2014, 11:43 pm

Stepping back this must have been an agonising loss for Wales considering the turnaround from last week. I didnt expect anything like this from Wales so someone has to be goven kudos for turning that result around in one week. Gatland, the entire side, whoever. The lead Wales got floored me when I tuned in at 17-0.

To do so with 13 players at some point regardless of how must give Wales some hope for better things ahead. In NZ we acknowledge that the toughest thing in Rugby is to tour South Africa and for Wales to get a result like that in the last? game of their season is massive.

Sure Wales have had a hard time winning one of these matches vs the SH but this result needs to be taken in context and I think fans need to appreciate just how good this side was today. Its a pity theres a focus on the tackle because theres more to this match than that.

And the best thing is they played with style. Took it to the Boks and opened it right up. The sooner other sides realise that that is the secret to beating them, rather than try to out muscle them, the more sides will come close to beating them. They showed again they can fall off tackles and thats when opportunities appear. They can run it wide as well but their true achilles heal is defending one on one in open spaces.

Well done, and take the positives from that into next year.

by rainbow-warrior Sun 22 Jun 2014, 2:44 am

Wales have again proved they are not in decline, they just need to concentrate on some areas of weakness. The maul is one area we are lacking discipline in, our line out is still weak and to not lose our heads in the last 10 minutes and make better decisions!! We matched SA in turnovers, we had the most possession and territory and SA had to tackle far more than Wales.

Lack of discipline cost us two penalty tries which we did not need to give away, they were both stupid and unnecessary and Wales should have had a victory and a big one at that.

We blooded some new lads who did admirably and with our injured lads to come back I believe we are in a far better position than some here think.

AI's will see us stale for the first game but if we can get up to speed and get a couple of wins I am sure this hoodoo can be broken.

by **George Carlin** Sun 22 Jun 2014, 7:12 am

Very little to add to this other than to say that I was heartbroken for Wales - they deserved better.

Does raise the question of the mahoosive divergence in the intensity levels at which this Welsh side seems to play matches. Why is that? My friends from Ponty told me last night that they key thing is that this Welsh side have this fifth gear available to them if they really have to use it. That's true, but you can lose games in the time it takes to get focused.

by slartibartfast Sun 22 Jun 2014, 8:39 am

I'm glad Gatland in discussing Williams-gate pointed out North missed the previous tackle.

by Guest Sun 22 Jun 2014, 8:48 am

I know how this sounds in the wake of the match, but to be honest even when we were 13 points up with 10 minutes to go I had this feeling we would still lose the match, thats what supporting Wales has been like for the past decade it just happens so many times at the death.

2 things need to be sorted out - discipline and closing out matches.

On a side note, does anyone else feel the maul is being refereed harshly to the defending teams? It looks as though the attacking team can commit offences but any defending team infringements are pinged immediately. When was the last time you saw an attacking maul get penalised?

by Taylorman Sun 22 Jun 2014, 9:34 am

slartibartfast wrote:I'm glad Gatland in discussing Williams-gate pointed out North missed the previous tackle.

I think thats a point as Williams probably couldnt tell what he was going to get when he got there. You'd expect Norths effort to have had some effect in slowing him down and he just fell completely off him. I'd hope Williams doesnt get the full blame for this. Couldnt fault his commitment, something we saw in him a couple of years ago vs the AB's.

by SecretFly Sun 22 Jun 2014, 9:35 am

IronMike wrote:

On a side note, does anyone else feel the maul is being refereed harshly to the defending teams? It looks as though the attacking team can commit offences but any defending team infringements are pinged immediately. When was the last time you saw an attacking maul get penalised?

Hasn't that been an unwritten rule now for quite a number of years? - the attacking side gets the 50-50s? Not always of course, but in general it's well known that the best place to be to get the ref on your side is in attack. Attacking rugby is what the bit by bit new rules were meant to promote.

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