JEFF vs Rabo

by HERSH Sun 02 Sep 2012, 6:59 pm

First topic message reminder :

IMO there is only one winner and this weekend proved it once again. Very Happy

Thank God for the Jeff. thumbsup

Full strength teams playing with passion, aggression and skill, thats what the paying public want to see not 2nd/3rd/youth teams turning up to fulfill a fixture. thumbsdown

What do you think

by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon 03 Sep 2012, 8:44 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Honestly though in terms of how seriously its contested, and how much the fans who watch (howvever many) give a toss about it relative to other cups can there be an argument that the Jeff isnt more highly regarded than the Rabo?
That doesnt mean there arent some better players, better teams and arguably better ethics in the Rabo. Nor is it a question of the "quality" of the rugby, which is very varied in the Jeff ...although the opening weekends matches were pretty good for the most part its rarely the case for the whole season. The same for the Rabo, Im sure we'll see some better games as it goes on. What we wont see is the best sides, and most fans, treating it as their top priority.

Hard to disagree with much in that really.

The Quins game was an absolute belter btw. I really enjoyed it. only 7 points less in it than that other belter Taranaki v Tasman. Whooda thunk it?

No game in the Rabo came close.

The game that followed it though, despite having 40 points for one side was as dull as ditchwater. hard to stay awake during it.

by Guest Mon 03 Sep 2012, 9:53 pm

Yawn..... Can't folk talk about the structure of the game in the NH? That is far more interesting.....and has an impact on all the northern leagues, compared to the big three down south.....

by Hound_of_Harrow Mon 03 Sep 2012, 10:43 pm

Recwatcher wrote:Yawn..... Can't folk talk about the structure of the game in the NH? That is far more interesting.....and has an impact on all the northern leagues, compared to the big three down south.....

Where the Rabo teams have largely got it right is imposing 'non qualified' restrictions on players. Plus there are certain tax advantages for players in Ireland to remain playing in Ireland.

The salary caps in England and Wales are preventing clubs in both countries from having large enough squads to compete with the likes of Leinster in the HC and 1) in the case of England, almost forcing them to bring in non EQ players to fill the gaps during international windows.

And 2) In Wales the newly imposed £3.5m cap has seen a mini exodus of players heading to France and England.

If the cap remains, to have a large enough squad to do well on two very competitive fronts, will mean English clubs paying players less (let's be honest they won't be getting tax exemptions). And then the better players will all jump ship to whoever will pay them what they want.

All it needs is the salary cap to be raised to a level where AP clubs can sustain a roster of 40-45 pro players. Either that or the RFU provide more funding to the clubs providing players to the EPS squads, as was originally mooted. And that extra funding is added to the existing salary cap.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon 03 Sep 2012, 11:11 pm

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:
Recwatcher wrote:Yawn..... Can't folk talk about the structure of the game in the NH? That is far more interesting.....and has an impact on all the northern leagues, compared to the big three down south.....

Where the Rabo teams have largely got it right is imposing 'non qualified' restrictions on players. Plus there are certain tax advantages for players in Ireland to remain playing in Ireland.

The salary caps in England and Wales are preventing clubs in both countries from having large enough squads to compete with the likes of Leinster in the HC and 1) in the case of England, almost forcing them to bring in non EQ players to fill the gaps during international windows.

And 2) In Wales the newly imposed £3.5m cap has seen a mini exodus of players heading to France and England.

If the cap remains, to have a large enough squad to do well on two very competitive fronts, will mean English clubs paying players less (let's be honest they won't be getting tax exemptions). And then the better players will all jump ship to whoever will pay them what they want.

All it needs is the salary cap to be raised to a level where AP clubs can sustain a roster of 40-45 pro players. Either that or the RFU provide more funding to the clubs providing players to the EPS squads, as was originally mooted. And that extra funding is added to the existing salary cap.

Now there's a man thinking positively about how to fix the situation in his own country rather than whinging about what the other countries are doing. thumbsup

If the PRL and the RFU could just row in the same direction for a while (Mad I know) It would be great for English club AND international Rugby. Perhaps the common adversity could force them together. Cause if Either of them are relying on the French to have their back...........

by Guest Mon 03 Sep 2012, 11:12 pm

Tired

by maestegmafia Mon 03 Sep 2012, 11:20 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Hound_of_Harrow wrote:
Recwatcher wrote:Yawn..... Can't folk talk about the structure of the game in the NH? That is far more interesting.....and has an impact on all the northern leagues, compared to the big three down south.....

Where the Rabo teams have largely got it right is imposing 'non qualified' restrictions on players. Plus there are certain tax advantages for players in Ireland to remain playing in Ireland.

The salary caps in England and Wales are preventing clubs in both countries from having large enough squads to compete with the likes of Leinster in the HC and 1) in the case of England, almost forcing them to bring in non EQ players to fill the gaps during international windows.

And 2) In Wales the newly imposed £3.5m cap has seen a mini exodus of players heading to France and England.

If the cap remains, to have a large enough squad to do well on two very competitive fronts, will mean English clubs paying players less (let's be honest they won't be getting tax exemptions). And then the better players will all jump ship to whoever will pay them what they want.

All it needs is the salary cap to be raised to a level where AP clubs can sustain a roster of 40-45 pro players. Either that or the RFU provide more funding to the clubs providing players to the EPS squads, as was originally mooted. And that extra funding is added to the existing salary cap.

Now there's a man thinking positively about how to fix the situation in his own country rather than whinging about what the other countries are doing.

If the PRL and the RFU could just row in the same direction for a while (Mad I know) It would be great for English club AND international Rugby. Perhaps the common adversity could force them together. Cause if Either of them are relying on the French to have their back...........

Yep...!

by Gibson Mon 03 Sep 2012, 11:40 pm

viewtothegym wrote:Tired

by Gibson Mon 03 Sep 2012, 11:42 pm

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:
Recwatcher wrote:Yawn..... Can't folk talk about the structure of the game in the NH? That is far more interesting.....and has an impact on all the northern leagues, compared to the big three down south.....

Where the Rabo teams have largely got it right is imposing 'non qualified' restrictions on players. Plus there are certain tax advantages for players in Ireland to remain playing in Ireland.

The salary caps in England and Wales are preventing clubs in both countries from having large enough squads to compete with the likes of Leinster in the HC and 1) in the case of England, almost forcing them to bring in non EQ players to fill the gaps during international windows.

And 2) In Wales the newly imposed £3.5m cap has seen a mini exodus of players heading to France and England.

If the cap remains, to have a large enough squad to do well on two very competitive fronts, will mean English clubs paying players less (let's be honest they won't be getting tax exemptions). And then the better players will all jump ship to whoever will pay them what they want.

All it needs is the salary cap to be raised to a level where AP clubs can sustain a roster of 40-45 pro players. Either that or the RFU provide more funding to the clubs providing players to the EPS squads, as was originally mooted. And that extra funding is added to the existing salary cap.

He's good though.

Let's hope the rest don't work it out now.

by geoff998rugby Tue 04 Sep 2012, 8:40 am

Hound_of_Harrow wrote: Where the Rabo teams have largely got it right is imposing 'non qualified' restrictions on players. Plus there are certain tax advantages for players in Ireland to remain playing in Ireland.

Although that tax advantage does not extend to Ulster and they have not seen an exodus of players for financial reasons so the reason their players stay is elsewhere.

by Brendan Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:32 am

I think the reason that players in Ireland, and now scotland and Italy are chossing to stay at home for the most part is they see that they are looked after and that the union cares about them. I don't know why the same is not true for Wales but I think it is down to money not being there as we saw with Scotland a few years back.

Players want to see ambition and the Italians and Scots are happy to come home or stay at home in the main because they see that their Unions are starting to have ambition and care about the region/club. The same can't be said for Wales as they are stuck between the Franglo model and the other Rabo countries Model and are left in no mans land

by gowales Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:00 am

Really?
I'd have though that most of the Italian's are going back because
a) They can't get a decent contract at another club
b) The Italian unions want Italian players so they'll take pretty much anyone
c) They want to play for Italy and this will give them a better shot.

by Gibson Tue 04 Sep 2012, 11:47 pm

Really?
Id have thought that the following is logical.
d) Italians are coming home, because, unlike a raft of loyal, star, Welsh players - running away from a sinking regional ship, they believe in what's happening there.
e) Italy is building on a future that will rival that of France. Its pure demographics. It will come. It is only a matter of time.
f) Phookit, I only needed two.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Wed 05 Sep 2012, 12:02 am

Or
g )the wimmin are all over them back at home, fed up with metrosexual footballers

by Gibson Wed 05 Sep 2012, 12:12 am

That is truer than anything said on the matter so far. And Italy are on the move. Its how the French were viewed not so long ago. guinness

by Smirnoffpriest Wed 05 Sep 2012, 12:45 am

Umm you mean the raft of Welsh internationals who are running - ooh wait there's only 4 from the current squad, Phillips, Byrne, Hook & Jenkins, and ohh yeah I remember Hook, Phillips and Byrne weren't offered contracts at the Ospreys because they weren't playing well enough to earn one.

True that proves that all the Welsh internationals are deserting a sinking ship...

by Smirnoffpriest Wed 05 Sep 2012, 12:47 am

And thanks Hersh for posting another Wum article on Jeff better than Rabo subject - I've really needed one and there hasn't been a thread/discussion on it for so long!

by gowales Wed 05 Sep 2012, 7:49 am

Gibson wrote:Really?
Id have thought that the following is logical.
d) Italians are coming home, because, unlike a raft of loyal, star, Welsh players - running away from a sinking regional ship, they believe in what's happening there.
e) Italy is building on a future that will rival that of France. Its pure demographics. It will come. It is only a matter of time.
f) Phookit, I only needed two.

Nope

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 05 Sep 2012, 8:45 am

Or it might be because the Itlaian players are mostly sh1te and noone esle is willing to pay them as much (except Castro)

Just a thought

by gowales Wed 05 Sep 2012, 8:46 am

That's what i said

by Kingshu Wed 05 Sep 2012, 9:01 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Or it might be because the Itlaian players are mostly sh1te and noone esle is willing to pay them as much (except Castro)

Just a thought

Lets be fair there are a number of good Italian players, and a lot of Decent players.

Terviso prove that, had a decent season last year and look to have improved.

Sergio Parisse, Luke McLean, Bergamasco brothers and a number of props.

Likewise they are currently building players for the future, the next Parisse is prob in Zebre's team.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 05 Sep 2012, 9:34 am

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Umm you mean the raft of Welsh internationals who are running - ooh wait there's only 4 from the current squad, Phillips, Byrne, Hook & Jenkins, and ohh yeah I remember Hook, Phillips and Byrne weren't offered contracts at the Ospreys because they weren't playing well enough to earn one.

True that proves that all the Welsh internationals are deserting a sinking ship...

Would you not add Bennett and Charteris to that list, priest?

by Brendan Wed 05 Sep 2012, 9:45 am

My point was that their are players who could get paid more in France and England but are choosing to come home or stay at home.

I am sure that Ospreys would like to have kept Byrnes and Hook but didn't offer a contract because they couldn't match the money on off not that they didn't want them. You can tell me that the Os are beter then Wales and so Wales may need them but the Os don't.

Also no one said anything about scotland's players also choosing to come home. Yes Gray is the exception. In Scotland and Italy there are plenty of players that could get contracts in the prem and Top14. and to old thing of "oh they're just not good enough" as a munster man there are a few of the treviso team that could add to the team and squad, and it is true from Scotland and Italy's Regional teams.

On the point that Italian players are choosing to play in Italy because they want to play for italy is rubbish. Irish players for the main have stayed at home when it was a viable opition eg once the pro became more then the interpro games and HC. Italians are the same. Scots jumped ship when they saw the SRU didn't came about the pro-teams. They are coming back now that they see the SRU is serious.

The only Scots leaving now apart from Gray are people who can't get pro contracts. There are plenty of Welsh leaving who could have got a contract but turned it down.

Is it my imagination or is the exodus from England to France (that looked so ominious) all but gone

by thebandwagonsociety Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:18 am

HERSH wrote:IMO there is only one winner and this weekend proved it once again.

Thank God for the Jeff.

Full strength teams playing with passion, aggression and skill, thats what the paying public want to see not 2nd/3rd/youth teams turning up to fulfill a fixture.

What do you think

Hersh, I think this is becoming a typical article coming from yourself and I worry that you are too far down a narrow-minded condescending slope that you might not be able to get back once you realise just where you have gone.... you did ask for my thoughts.

by Hound_of_Harrow Wed 05 Sep 2012, 5:57 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:
Hound_of_Harrow wrote: Where the Rabo teams have largely got it right is imposing 'non qualified' restrictions on players. Plus there are certain tax advantages for players in Ireland to remain playing in Ireland.

Although that tax advantage does not extend to Ulster and they have not seen an exodus of players for financial reasons so the reason their players stay is elsewhere.

I'm aware the exemption doesn't apply to N.I. which was why I said Ireland. In terms of Leinster and Munster keeping their best players.

But Roger Wilson, Neil Best, Tommy Bowe and Gareth Steenson did all leave Ulster over the last 4-5 years. I'm not saying they left Ulster for financial reasons, but they did leave.

by Smirnoffpriest Wed 05 Sep 2012, 7:15 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Smirnoffpriest wrote:Umm you mean the raft of Welsh internationals who are running - ooh wait there's only 4 from the current squad, Phillips, Byrne, Hook & Jenkins, and ohh yeah I remember Hook, Phillips and Byrne weren't offered contracts at the Ospreys because they weren't playing well enough to earn one.

True that proves that all the Welsh internationals are deserting a sinking ship...
Would you not add Bennett and Charteris to that list, priest?

i def wouldnt add bennet to the list, hes playing in the 2nd division and is 3rd choice if hes lucky. Personally i dont think he will play more than 5 times more for wales with owen, rees and hibbert infront of him and good youngsters coming through at the scarlets and ospreys. Charteris yes hes one of 4 locks who could b 1st choice and is 1 of 2 players we wouldnt have wantd to lose

by Scrumdown Wed 05 Sep 2012, 7:34 pm

The Harlequins Wasps game was an exciting game but lacked any kind of structure or indeed the intensity that you would expect at this level.

It resembled a game of touch rugby more than anything, with each team being able to score almost at will.

Skill levels were also not really tested due to tackling seemingly being optional.

More than anything though it emphasised how far the english premiership has fallen since those heady days when Wasps and Leicester would compete in games which were more brutal than some internationals.

by Feckless Rogue Wed 05 Sep 2012, 9:32 pm

Yeah the movement of English players to France seems to have all but stopped.

I thought the Welsh exodus would be worse given the regions finances. It hasn't been that bad. It'll probably remain the same until the finances of the regions improve. A handful of top players every couple of years. Not ideal but not a complete disaster.

I've always been nervous about a big Irish star deciding to go to France, fearing it might open the floodgates. But as of yet, no major Irish player has gone to France in a long time. And if a few did it wouldn't be the end of the world.

by Smirnoffpriest Wed 05 Sep 2012, 9:35 pm

Yeah it's funny the amount of English posters wumming about the 'Welsh Exodus' to France now that English players are coming back from France, and there isn't as much going out there.

As ever they ignore the general trends that lots of countries have times when either some, lots or none of their players play abroad and it isn't permanent and also the other fact that there aren't that many Wales 1st teamers in France, or that many squad members.

by Hound_of_Harrow Wed 05 Sep 2012, 9:47 pm

I don't think anyone is wumming smirnoff. In the context of what has gone before, a number of big name Welsh players have gone to France this summer. Their reputations enhanced by a very good RWC campaign.

Don't think that performance in the loss to France wasn't noted by the coaches of French clubs. They went looking for your players imo.

thumbsup

by thebluesmancometh Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:06 pm

Harrow

Not sure if your joking but thats a really good point I hadn't considered. Although I think Phillips was pretty decent in that game and, well, he struggled for a contract for a while!

by Morgannwg Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:27 pm

Kingshu wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Or it might be because the Itlaian players are mostly sh1te and noone esle is willing to pay them as much (except Castro)

Just a thought

Lets be fair there are a number of good Italian players, and a lot of Decent players.

Terviso prove that, had a decent season last year and look to have improved.

Sergio Parisse, Luke McLean, Bergamasco brothers and a number of props.

Likewise they are currently building players for the future, the next Parisse is prob in Zebre's team.

In Zebre's team? That's a bit much. And all of Italy's best players tend not to be Italian. Zebre and in particular Treviso were necessary in order to lay foundations for the future, but that won't come into fruition for a long, long time. Compare them to the French all you want, it's ludicrous. They're perennial spooners.

by LeinsterFan4life Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:36 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Or it might be because the Itlaian players are mostly sh1te and noone esle is willing to pay them as much (except Castro)

Just a thought

Lets be fair there are a number of good Italian players, and a lot of Decent players.

Terviso prove that, had a decent season last year and look to have improved.

Sergio Parisse, Luke McLean, Bergamasco brothers and a number of props.

Likewise they are currently building players for the future, the next Parisse is prob in Zebre's team.

In Zebre's team? That's a bit much. And all of Italy's best players tend not to be Italian. Zebre and in particular Treviso were necessary in order to lay foundations for the future, but that won't come into fruition for a long, long time. Compare them to the French all you want, it's ludicrous. They're perennial spooners.

why are the welsh so negative towards the italians? is there some sort of rivarly there?

by Hound_of_Harrow Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:40 pm

Not joking at all, blues.

The fact is Wales scared the living shoite out of France - for most of the game without your captain (different debate) - and that effort was noted in France.

For your guys to be sought after as players in a league as tough as the T14 is something to be proud of. So long as Gatland recognises that and keeps the emigres in mind for national selection.

by Morgannwg Wed 05 Sep 2012, 10:59 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Or it might be because the Itlaian players are mostly sh1te and noone esle is willing to pay them as much (except Castro)

Just a thought

Lets be fair there are a number of good Italian players, and a lot of Decent players.

Terviso prove that, had a decent season last year and look to have improved.

Sergio Parisse, Luke McLean, Bergamasco brothers and a number of props.

Likewise they are currently building players for the future, the next Parisse is prob in Zebre's team.

In Zebre's team? That's a bit much. And all of Italy's best players tend not to be Italian. Zebre and in particular Treviso were necessary in order to lay foundations for the future, but that won't come into fruition for a long, long time. Compare them to the French all you want, it's ludicrous. They're perennial spooners.
why are the welsh so negative towards the italians? is there some sort of rivarly there?

How are the Welsh so negative towards the Italians and where is the rivalry? I'm sorry but your sense of humour is lost on me... But if you read back you should probably note some ridiculous comments from another Leinster fan; it was about Welsh teams and then comparing them to the Italian teams. It was incorrect as well as being ridiculous anyway if that means anything to you. Parrisse, Castro are Argentinian. McClean and Burton are Aus I think. There's more Argentinans and South Africans littered throughout the team. Now these two Italian franchises are in place it may help with their development. They haven't really improved as a rugby force since entering the 6 Nations and are nowhere near France. I wish all the best to Italy though of course.

by LeinsterFan4life Wed 05 Sep 2012, 11:05 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Or it might be because the Itlaian players are mostly sh1te and noone esle is willing to pay them as much (except Castro)

Just a thought

Lets be fair there are a number of good Italian players, and a lot of Decent players.

Terviso prove that, had a decent season last year and look to have improved.

Sergio Parisse, Luke McLean, Bergamasco brothers and a number of props.

Likewise they are currently building players for the future, the next Parisse is prob in Zebre's team.

In Zebre's team? That's a bit much. And all of Italy's best players tend not to be Italian. Zebre and in particular Treviso were necessary in order to lay foundations for the future, but that won't come into fruition for a long, long time. Compare them to the French all you want, it's ludicrous. They're perennial spooners.
why are the welsh so negative towards the italians? is there some sort of rivarly there?

How are the Welsh so negative towards the Italians and where is the rivalry? I'm sorry but your sense of humour is lost on me... But if you read back you should probably note some ridiculous comments from another Leinster fan; it was about Welsh teams and then comparing them to the Italian teams. It was incorrect as well as being ridiculous anyway if that means anything to you. Parrisse, Castro are Argentinian. McClean and Burton are Aus I think. There's more Argentinans and South Africans littered throughout the team. Now these two Italian franchises are in place it may help with their development. They haven't really improved as a rugby force since entering the 6 Nations and are nowhere near France. I wish all the best to Italy though of course.

parrisse and castro are not argentinian. what argintine puts his hand on his chest and sings out the italian national anthem? i know they were born there but it doesnt make them any less italian.

by Hound_of_Harrow Wed 05 Sep 2012, 11:08 pm

Also blues, the new salary cap in Wales meant that the Os couldn't afford to keep the squad they had. It may work out for the best in the long run in Wales, but we both need big squads to compete with Leinster and the likes of Toulouse and ASM.

I might be English, but the HC needs Wales to produce a HC semi finalist (at least) to improve support for the game in Wales.

In the current financial climate the WRU, and the Regions, need bums on seats at games and merchandise being sold to provide the finance to achieve better things. Over to the fans on that one - you can make it happen if people make the commitment.

In England we need to up the salary cap and RFU finance, and look at ring fencing our Premiership until after the next RWC. That will enable meaningful, and positive, player development, which will work for both clubs and country.

Time to stop burying our heads in the sands of 'tradition'.

by Smirnoffpriest Wed 05 Sep 2012, 11:11 pm

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:I don't think anyone is wumming smirnoff. In the context of what has gone before, a number of big name Welsh players have gone to France this summer. Their reputations enhanced by a very good RWC campaign.

Don't think that performance in the loss to France wasn't noted by the coaches of French clubs. They went looking for your players imo.

Well there's been plenty of wumming by Hersh on this thread, and plenty littered throughout other threads on various subjects - though of course I'm not aiming this at you Hound.

The big players who went to France are, IMO, Jenkins and Charteris - Phillips, Hook and Byrne were already over there because Ospreys didn't want to renew their contracts (they weren't playing well enough), and then there's Bennet on the fringe of the squad 3rd/4th best hooker, Brew on the fringes of the squad further marginalised by Cuthbert and Robinson (as well as Liam Williams and Stodds when he comes back and Dirksen if he plays) and that's about it.

by Hound_of_Harrow Wed 05 Sep 2012, 11:16 pm

"They haven't really improved as a rugby force since entering the 6 Nations and are nowhere near France."

Who they beat in the last 6N.

Italy have also come close to beating my lot twice in the last few years. But I'd rather not dwell on that.
Smile

by LeinsterFan4life Wed 05 Sep 2012, 11:25 pm

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:"They haven't really improved as a rugby force since entering the 6 Nations and are nowhere near France."

Who they beat in the last 6N.

Italy have also come close to beating my lot twice in the last few years. But I'd rather not dwell on that.

they also should have beaten ireland in ireland. it was only a last minute drop goal from ROG that saved us.

by Hound_of_Harrow Wed 05 Sep 2012, 11:29 pm

smirnoff - I do think it was the prospect of a drop in salary that caused the moves. Byrne had lost out to Halfpenny, but Phillips is the first choice 9 for Wales, and Hook has been bench cover for 3 positions.

They can't have been that bad.

Sleep time for me anyway.

Nos da.
thumbsup

by Morgannwg Wed 05 Sep 2012, 11:45 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Hound_of_Harrow wrote:"They haven't really improved as a rugby force since entering the 6 Nations and are nowhere near France."

Who they beat in the last 6N.

Italy have also come close to beating my lot twice in the last few years. But I'd rather not dwell on that.

they also should have beaten ireland in ireland. it was only a last minute drop goal from ROG that saved us.

I was glad they beat France. I probably dislike that team/their teams more than England these days. Another sole win in the tournament really isn't an improvement though. I actually think Treviso are a better team. Someone mentioned French rugby history and insinuated Italy were heading the same way. I just don't see how that's all, even when things move a lot quicker in this professional era.

They almost beat you in Italy actually LeinsterFan4Life. Not Ireland. I'm not a fan of the Italy game plan. Collapse the scrums, spoil the breakdown and hope the penalties go your way because the team somehow has a reputation for putting out superior forwards than everyone else. In attack pass to Burton or McClean so they can kick the leather off the ball.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 06 Sep 2012, 12:25 am

Morgannwg wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Hound_of_Harrow wrote:"They haven't really improved as a rugby force since entering the 6 Nations and are nowhere near France."

Who they beat in the last 6N.

Italy have also come close to beating my lot twice in the last few years. But I'd rather not dwell on that.

they also should have beaten ireland in ireland. it was only a last minute drop goal from ROG that saved us.

I was glad they beat France. I probably dislike that team/their teams more than England these days. Another sole win in the tournament really isn't an improvement though. I actually think Treviso are a better team. Someone mentioned French rugby history and insinuated Italy were heading the same way. I just don't see how that's all, even when things move a lot quicker in this professional era.

They almost beat you in Italy actually LeinsterFan4Life. Not Ireland. I'm not a fan of the Italy game plan. Collapse the scrums, spoil the breakdown and hope the penalties go your way because the team somehow has a reputation for putting out superior forwards than everyone else. In attack pass to Burton or McClean so they can kick the leather off the ball.

ive got a terrible memory Doh

by Smirnoffpriest Thu 06 Sep 2012, 12:25 am

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:smirnoff - I do think it was the prospect of a drop in salary that caused the moves. Byrne had lost out to Halfpenny, but Phillips is the first choice 9 for Wales, and Hook has been bench cover for 3 positions.

They can't have been that bad.

Sleep time for me anyway.

Nos da.

I'm talking about for the Ospreys where Phillips didn't play for 3 months, Hook couldn't displace Biggar at 10 and wasn't playing well at 12, and Byrne was in a shocking strain of form - non of them got offered contracts at the Ospreys before any talk of a salary cap.

Nos da Hound, and Yes they were that bad Very Happy

by gowales Thu 06 Sep 2012, 1:38 pm

Shows the planning of the O's coaches then.

Barry Davies/Richard Fussell over Byrne, they must have been mad.

by geoff998rugby Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:11 pm

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:
Hound_of_Harrow wrote: Where the Rabo teams have largely got it right is imposing 'non qualified' restrictions on players. Plus there are certain tax advantages for players in Ireland to remain playing in Ireland.

Although that tax advantage does not extend to Ulster and they have not seen an exodus of players for financial reasons so the reason their players stay is elsewhere.

I'm aware the exemption doesn't apply to N.I. which was why I said Ireland. In terms of Leinster and Munster keeping their best players.

But Roger Wilson, Neil Best, Tommy Bowe and Gareth Steenson did all leave Ulster over the last 4-5 years. I'm not saying they left Ulster for financial reasons, but they did leave.

Surely the point is that Ulster have retained players as well as Munster and Leinster which tends to suggest the reason the Irish provinces have retained their player is, primarily, not a financial one.

To the players you list you could add Andress, Stevenson, Humphreys, Caldwell and a host more - none of them went for financial reasons. In nearly all cases it was a belief they were not going to make the first team - Wislon, Best and Bowe are the exceptions.

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:13 pm

gowales

Owens could cover there too, plus they had Prydie.

by gowales Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:17 pm

Owen was crap at fullback and i'm not sure if they were ever seriously considering playing Prydie there anytime soon

by thebluesmancometh Thu 06 Sep 2012, 2:49 pm

But my point was with those four options getting Byrnes wage off the books wasn't the worst idea in the world!

by Smirnoffpriest Fri 07 Sep 2012, 2:21 am

gowales wrote:Shows the planning of the O's coaches then.

Barry Davies/Richard Fussell over Byrne, they must have been mad.

Byrne was playing very poor, they knew they had Ross Jones coming through, and I don't think any of the other options played any worse than Byrne (when in his slump in form) but would have been on a huge amount less wages.

My point though was that Byrne didn't go because the lure of French money was to much for the Ospreys to fight against - it was because the Ospreys wanted to cut their losses and get away from the Galaticos tag

by maestegmafia Fri 07 Sep 2012, 4:00 am

gowales wrote:Shows the planning of the O's coaches then.

Barry Davies/Richard Fussell over Byrne, they must have been mad.

Actually Byrne was injured most of the last two/Three seasons he was at the ospreys.

That would have been expensive for them. He didn't play regularly because of injury. Fussell and Davies were never picked ahead of him when he was fit as you are insinuating.

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