Jeff (Rabo or whatever): You need a 10,000 turnout to be successful.

And at least a minimum of 2/3rds home ground capacity to create an atmosphere.

A handful of English/Irish/French sides can do it.

Many sides play in concrete shells which fit like a five-year-old in his dad's suit and his mum's high heels and surprisingly it doesn't work.

Small is beautiful but small in ostentatious big looks like a pig.

So why do LI, Cardiff, Edinburgh etc. etc. continue to stick to oversized stadia?

Don't know about LI. I'm pretty sure Cardiff are run by a shower of fools. Edinburgh, as with all things in Scottish rugby, can be explained by lack of money meaning there's no other option.

I think every top flight team in the home nations should be able to get at least 10k for every home game. I really do.

In the Pro 12 I think teams need bigger home support to get the 10,000 mark than other leagues.

ie Irish team v Welsh team , 10,000 crowd 95% supporting home team
English team v English team, 10,000 crowd 70% supporting home team

Lack of away fans makes it more important to get hoime supporters in to make up numbers

Portnoy, what would be your alternative to Murrayfield for Edinburgh? (trust me, they have all been considered and rejected)

Ulster can create an atmosphere with 7,000+ - although it is better with 10,000+

It depends on the ground

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Portnoy, what would be your alternative to Murrayfield for Edinburgh? (trust me, they have all been considered and rejected)

The back pitches at Murrayfield with tempory stands, (a bit like the RDS). I thought this was being looked at and seamed a good idea.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I'm pretty sure Cardiff are run by a shower of fools.

Yeah, i'd agree with that.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Portnoy, what would be your alternative to Murrayfield for Edinburgh? (trust me, they have all been considered and rejected)

Has the Edinburgh set-up considered a small, local football club or does the SRU consider it's oversized home ground to be a sacred cow?

Murrayfield is a white elephant...

Portnoy, it is very easy for you as a supporter of a traditional powerhouse with it's own ground and a stable income to be scathing of others. We would all love to be in the same position as Leicester, Gloucester and Quins, but sadly it is not always possible.

London Irish at the advent of professionalism and ground requirements had to find a home that was 1) available and 2) met the criteria for the top flight. They now have a contract to play at the Madejski until 2020 I believe. Financially we are not in a position to change that, much as the club would like to.

Yes, when we have 8,000 in a stadium designed to hold 24,000 the atmosphere can be a little damp. But thems the breaks. I am sure that when 2020 hits, all appropriate avenues at that time will be explored by the club.

Portnoy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Portnoy, what would be your alternative to Murrayfield for Edinburgh? (trust me, they have all been considered and rejected)

Has the Edinburgh set-up considered a small, local football club or does the SRU consider it's oversized home ground to be a sacred cow?

Murrayfield is a white elephant...

Looked at those, pitches all too small

Kingshu wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Portnoy, what would be your alternative to Murrayfield for Edinburgh? (trust me, they have all been considered and rejected)

The back pitches at Murrayfield with tempory stands, (a bit like the RDS). I thought this was being looked at and seamed a good idea.

Kingshu, Not really like the RDS, it has more than jusst temp stands doesn't it?

How is no Footy ground too small?

You may not get the desirable length or width or in-goal area. But 5000 people in an 8000 stadium would surely generate more intensity.

I've always said this about any club/side location.

Portnoy wrote:How is no Footy ground too small?

You may not get the desirable length or width or in-goal area. But 5000 people in an 8000 stadium would surely generate more intensity.

I've always said this about any club/side location.

In Embra, its either Tynecastle or Easter Road, that's it. The best solution would be to redevelop Meadowbank as a multi-purpose facility, but there's simply no money to do it! The bright spot on the horizon is that it's looking likely that Edinburgh vs Toulouse in the HC qf will attract a crwod of 25-30k

When you say "Successful", do you mean,

(i) Win trophies

(ii) Reach knockout stages of competitions

(iii) Reach financial viability

or some other measure?

Financial viability is the essence.

The chase for gongs is an additional, occasional aspiration.

I agree with your logic Portnoy. Any shortfall in turnout would need to be subsidised from another source (a rich owner for example).

Now, how would you go about achieving and retaining a 10,000 turnout?
Success on the pitch, stadium/ground facilities, youth/development structures, marketing, promotions?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I agree with your logic Portnoy. Any shortfall in turnout would need to be subsidised from another source (a rich owner for example).

Now, how would you go about achieving and retaining a 10,000 turnout?
Success on the pitch, stadium/ground facilities, youth/development structures, marketing, promotions?

Well firstly I'd ignore the ten thousand bit.

Play in a stadium that fits the support fairly snugly.

So,



Is your main contention that the grounds are too big or that the crowds are too small?

Or do you mean that every team needs to play in a 15,000 seat stadium with 10,000 supporters present?

Kingshu wrote:In the Pro 12 I think teams need bigger home support to get the 10,000 mark than other leagues.

ie Irish team v Welsh team , 10,000 crowd 95% supporting home team
English team v English team, 10,000 crowd 70% supporting home team

Lack of away fans makes it more important to get hoime supporters in to make up numbers

I'm not sure where you've got that data from, but I'd be very scepticle that 30% of an Egnlish attendance is from the away side. We average 13,000 at Glaws and 30% would mean 3,900 away fans and I can say with the exception of our games against Munster, we have never had that many away fans. Typically, we'd have less than 1,000 away fans.

Personally i think the marjoity of the stadiums in the Aviva are actually too small for the teams! I think we could easily see teams like Northampton, Gloucester, Harlequins, Bath, Worcester, Exeter with 20,000+ rugby stadiums.

Let's look at each club.

Bath - looking to expand/build new facilities

Leicester - ditto

Saints - ditto

Sarries - very close to acquiring site to build new stadium.

Wasps - no money, basically in big trouble.

Sale - trying to share stadium with Salford.

Gloucester - unknown

Exeter - unknown

Quins - in a good position anyway.

Newcastle - with their relegation woes aren't in a position to look at expansion.

London Irish - stuck at Madejski for a long time. Nothing they can do. Ozzy when can they leave?

Worcester - just about staying in the AP.

Summary: Most clubs are busy trying to sort expansions and stadiums out if they can.

Exeter i think are planning on expansion with private funds.
While Gloucester is going to be a world cup venue, im not sure if the RFU will help out or not.

beshocked wrote:

Let's look at each club.

Bath - looking to expand/build new facilities

Leicester - ditto

Saints - ditto

Sarries - very close to acquiring site to build new stadium.

Wasps - no money, basically in big trouble.

Sale - trying to share stadium with Salford.

Gloucester - unknown

Exeter - unknown

Quins - in a good position anyway.

Newcastle - with their relegation woes aren't in a position to look at expansion.

London Irish - stuck at Madejski for a long time. Nothing they can do. Ozzy when can they leave?

Worcester - just about staying in the AP.

Summary: Most clubs are busy trying to sort expansions and stadiums out if they can.

Sarries downsizing to a brand new hutch might have been a bit more ambitious. It's a currently successful side with a completely unsustainable business model.

No roots.
Wrong target audience.
And irredeemably loss-making.

cf Wasps.

Just to fill in the Exeter 'unknown', they have long term plans to redevelop the 3 smaller stands at Sandy Park, they've got a good long term business plan going on down there, puts other clubs to shame in many ways!

Bathman_in_London wrote:Just to fill in the Exeter 'unknown', they have long term plans to redevelop the 3 smaller stands at Sandy Park, they've got a good long term business plan going on down there, puts other clubs to shame in many ways!

Here's the story on the offy site: Chiefs development plans

Its interesting to see all the clubs looking at new stadiums. I suppose rugby hasn't been professional for very long so it is to be expected. This issue alone could be the making or breaking of some clubs in the future. Wasps for example.

Its noticable that the clubs from large urban areas are having most difficulty regarding stadiums. The London teams in particular are finding it tough. In Ireland Leinster have to rent because theres not too much space in south Dublin to build and they wouldn't move to north Dublin. In that regard the more rural clubs have an advantage.

profitius wrote:In Ireland Leinster have to rent because theres not too much space in south Dublin to build and they wouldn't move to north Dublin. In that regard the more rural clubs have an advantage.

They should build a stadium here in Drogheda. There's loads of unemployed labourers to hire on the cheap. There's lots of hard b*****rds to intimidate away fans. And the land would be really cheap cuz Drogheda's a sh**hole.

beshocked wrote:

Let's look at each club.

Gloucester - unknown

Glaws built a new stand c.4 years ago and our capacity is 16,500. We will only expand if we regularly sell out, which at the moment we're not - so no plans to expand at this time.

I'm worried that Ulsters upgrade to Ravenhill will dilute the atmosphere during international windows- we'll be getting maybe 8, 9000 into a now 18000 capacity ground. At current capacity (just short of 12000?) the atmosphere is great but expans the stadium and it might struggle. BUT, the flip side of the coin is that for interprovincial games and Heineken Cup games we'll be looking 15, 16, 17000. And then the atmosphere will be ferocious. And it makes us capable of hosting a home QF in European competition as well as a Pro12 final.

And I'm sure that Ulster are targeting increases on the attendance, but its always going to be a hard sell on weekends when Ireland are playing and internationals are missing.

Portnoy wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Let's look at each club.

Bath - looking to expand/build new facilities

Leicester - ditto

Saints - ditto

Sarries - very close to acquiring site to build new stadium.

Wasps - no money, basically in big trouble.

Sale - trying to share stadium with Salford.

Gloucester - unknown

Exeter - unknown

Quins - in a good position anyway.

Newcastle - with their relegation woes aren't in a position to look at expansion.

London Irish - stuck at Madejski for a long time. Nothing they can do. Ozzy when can they leave?

Worcester - just about staying in the AP.

Summary: Most clubs are busy trying to sort expansions and stadiums out if they can.

Sarries downsizing to a brand new hutch might have been a bit more ambitious. It's a currently successful side with a completely unsustainable business model.

No roots.
Wrong target audience.
And irredeemably loss-making.

cf Wasps.

Brand new hutch? What are you on about? I thought a hutch is where you keep rabbits.

Please speak properly. What is cf?

Wrong target audience? Please tell me what the Saracens management should be doing? You are of course a fountain of knowledge.

Thanks HKC,BIL and ALAB1OU. Didn't know about Gloucester and Exeter's plans.

Just shows that most clubs in the AP do have plans for the future.

beshocked in answer to your question we are tied to the Madejski until 2020 I believe.

In terms of development the club have put in another planning application to redevelop The Avenue with houses and other premises and build a new training facility at Hazelwood golf complex.

This will apparently be heard in June this year. Financially if we cannot develop the Avenue, it will be a disaster for the club.

Here's the Exeter Development story

For #Edinburgh = both tynecastlea dn Easter road the actualo playing surface is too small fro rugby - even smaller than firhill where glasgow play - and we can have murreyfield whenever we want it cheaply

Notch, I'm not to worried about Ulster, We were actually getting slighty bigger crowds a few years ago than we do now, a bit of success and the fans will be in. I always feel Ulster Rugby could do what Belfast Giants did at the beginging and put on some TV adverts about following a team for all. It's the non traditional rugby supports (ie new rugby (6nations only kinda thing) fans, that we have to appeal to).

LI can you get out of the Madejski early, (the way Cardiff Blues are the CCS)? but I suspect there is no where to go to.

Edinburgh did anything ever come of the idea of using the back pitches at Murrayfield, with temporary stands put up?

TJ wrote:For #Edinburgh = both tynecastlea dn Easter road the actualo playing surface is too small fro rugby - even smaller than firhill where glasgow play - and we can have murreyfield whenever we want it cheaply

I like that idea. More players with a fro must be the way forward.

Portnoy,

The business model is king, and even more so in the Jeff and Wales as they are private clubs etc (not kicking off that debate again but it is a fact that compared to Ireland and Scotland, there is less of a safety net)

So sustainability is paramount and that is why (inflamatory language aside) Saracens could hit a rough patch quickly if the current owner got bored or hit difficulties. A bit like Gretna football club in Scotland. Repeatedly promoted and made the Scottish Prem, the owner falls ill, his income stream from his business drys up as a result and the club drops like a stone into admin. Very sad on all fronts but when current expediture outstips current income, you cannot sustain that in sport for more than 24 months without serious reserves of capital and a medium term 'break even' point.

I think Ravenhill is going to be a VERY intimidating place to go when it has finished the facelift & expansion.

Exeter is the model all the Jeff, Top 14 & Welsh clubs should adopt; ie the final piece of the puzzle is/will be onfield success after a step by step modernisation of the club and its structures. Ambition is useless i it is blind to reality.

Here's the AP average gate this season as a % of Capacity (home grounds only!)

Saints 96.8
Bath 95.6
Tigers 83.7
Worcs 83.2
Gloucester 81.1
Quins 80.1
Exeter 75.3
Sale 69.6
L Wasps 58.8
Falcons 47.3
L Irish 36.6
Sarries 35.0 *

Only really Bath and Saints that desperately need to expand.

* Sarries % will rise to 63.8 when they move or higher if crowds rise.

I not worried about Ulster because the two sides are not moving. We are not expanding further away from the pitch. The expansion is all at the ends where currently we no spectator capacity to speak of. Even when empty, if anything, the noise will be louder as it will be retained better.

We must be able to accomodate the bigger matches. This year Munster could have been a 14,000 crowd and Leicester would have filled a 18,200 ground. We need to accomodate those matches.

Geoff, very true. Ive always thought even with a low attendance (that is a relative figure as far as Ulster are concerned) the crowd are always in good voice and the team & crowd feed of eachother. This is my impression as a TV viewer anyway, have yet to experience an away day in Belfast with Munster. But one day soon I hope!

Are you Thomond bound come April?