An Early Christmas Present for Tenez

First topic message reminder :

http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=15151&zoneid=25

Interesting read, would be interesting to see if and what comes out of it in the coming days...

It's getting worse. Toni being pretty nasty in his critics. After criticising the Parisian crowd, here Toni has a go at Noah....a crowd favourite.


Google helped me with this poor translation

"But the most virulent criticism came from Toni Nadal. "Yannick Noah doesn't deserve any respect! Said Toni on radio Cadena, coach and uncle of Rafael Nadal. I won't call him " Mister" Noah for a man called Mister doesn't talk this way. And if he comes to greet one day Rafa, I hope my nephew will tell him politely what he thinks of this statement. "He continued: "The good dynamics of Spanish sport has nothing to do with what the sport could take. Xavi, Iniesta, Ramos and Casillas, among others, are world champions and are obviously very clean. I'm sure David Ferrer takes nothing and I know that my nephew has never taken anything in his life. "


Toni Nadal does not stop there because also leaves some doubt on the integrity of Yannick Noah in doping. "This guy believes that everyone is like him. It shocks me that a person of questionable honesty is allowed to speak ill of Spanish sportsmen," he said. "This is just jealousy, a total lack of reflection. You can be jealous, but if you think nonsense, at least you are silent. It is anything for him to speak this topic (doping, ed), because to me it has often told me things about him, "he then suggested about the last French winner at Roland Garros in 1983.

http://fr.sports.yahoo.com/20112011/70/noah-une-honnetete-douteuse.html

I have to say that there is some interesting points on here and only the must blinded pessimist would disagree.

I have come to the following conclusion. The whole argument is some what flawed by the fact that Noah's son likes a bit of the magic dragon. Instead of rehab, Noah suggests the easy lazy route of legalise a failing. Genius.

My question is this. Where is the proof? When Gary Player made the same remarks about golfers, why didn't he provide the proof or name and shame? Given that he is questioning Spain as a nation, given that Football was the poorest excuse he couldve given with the fact that pundits had ripped Spain for international success as far back as 2002.

If Noah does in fact have proof, let's see it.

bogbrush wrote:

lydian wrote:I see Llodra has come out to apologise for Noah's comments...
http://tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=15157&zoneid=25

How can Mr A possibly apologise for Mr B's comments? It's absurd!

If I was Yannick Noah I'd tell Llodra to say something himself that anyone is interested to hear, then he can apologise for upsetting anyone.

Personally, I can only refer to what someone else said; nobody thought it was immoral or outrageous when we used to say that East German ladies were all doped. Remember Marita Koch?! So why shouldn't he point to the universal improvement across sporting pursuits of one nations representatives, and cross reference that to a less than stellar performance in openness and testing? Seems perfectly reasonable to me, and any Spanish complaints have to be treated as potentially not disinterested.

Sure, but it is also perfectly reasonable that those on the receiving end vigorously defend themselves. Doing so should not be taken as some measure of guilt. A dignified silence could be maintained, but that is hard with such an emotive issue and that I am sure would also be construed as hiding something. My view, Noah can say it and people can discuss it but it is clear where some prejudices here lie.

Positively 4th Street wrote:Sure, but it is also perfectly reasonable that those on the receiving end vigorously defend themselves. Doing so should not be taken as some measure of guilt. A dignified silence could be maintained, but that is hard with such an emotive issue and that I am sure would also be construed as hiding something. My view, Noah can say it and people can discuss it but it is clear where some prejudices here lie.

The prejudices lie where the doubts lie. Regardless, I found the agressive response from Toni and Rafa close to a mafia's threat.

Tenez wrote:

Positively 4th Street wrote:Sure, but it is also perfectly reasonable that those on the receiving end vigorously defend themselves. Doing so should not be taken as some measure of guilt. A dignified silence could be maintained, but that is hard with such an emotive issue and that I am sure would also be construed as hiding something. My view, Noah can say it and people can discuss it but it is clear where some prejudices here lie.

The prejudices lie where the doubts lie. Regardless, I found the agressive response from Toni and Rafa close to a mafia's threat.

Eyes peeled then for a pig's head in Noah's bed...

I did not read it as being as vehement as that, certainly from Rafa. That said, the lack of transparency in the past involving Spain leads to doubts, and I have no gripe with that. I could not be unequivocal on this matter as I simply do not know and it would be naive to believe completely in something where only part of the details are available.

Spanish athletes have just improved dramatically due to Betty's Hotpot's...

obviously.

Nadal is angry...

http://www.tennischannel.com/news/NewsDetails.aspx?newsid=10043

laverfan wrote:Nadal is angry...

http://www.tennischannel.com/news/NewsDetails.aspx?newsid=10043

Doth he protest too much?

laverfan wrote:Nadal is angry...

http://www.tennischannel.com/news/NewsDetails.aspx?newsid=10043

Definitely understandable. Doping, and by extension cheating, is a serious allegation to level against someone without proof.

But it wasn't against Nadal. He certainly took it personally though.

Link to Rochus's comments on Noah's comments below.


http://www.lanouvellegazette.be/sports/tennis/2011-11-21/christophe-rochus-yannick-noah-ne-fait-que-dire-la-verite-919182.shtml

Translation :

Yes, he said nothing but the truth... If you remember well enough, two or three years ago, I said then that there were dopers on the [tennis] circuit, which got me into trouble with the ATP. But there needs to be an end to the hypocrisy. It's not only the Spanish who practise sports at the top level and why are they suddenly being brought up now? Let's stop trying to make out that sport is clean. It's daft. We have to empower athletes because there are real dangers behind all this talk of doping.

Tenez wrote:But it wasn't against Nadal. He certainly took it personally though.

Link to Rochus's comments on Noah's comments below.


http://www.lanouvellegazette.be/sports/tennis/2011-11-21/christophe-rochus-yannick-noah-ne-fait-que-dire-la-verite-919182.shtml

Translation :

Yes, he said nothing but the truth... If you remember well enough, two or three years ago, I said then that there were dopers on the [tennis] circuit, which got me into trouble with the ATP. But there needs to be an end to the hypocrisy. It's not only the Spanish who practise sports at the top level and why are they suddenly being brought up now? Let's stop trying to make out that sport is clean. It's daft. We have to empower athletes because there are real dangers behind all this talk of doping.

So what happens now?
Who actually is supposed and worse PAID to do anything about the problem?

I don;t know but it seems very clear that all those who are active in teh sport, don;t want to talk about it. Be it journalists, commentators and players. However as soon as they leave the tour, they are all happy to talk about it.

Why? I don't know but there must be a good reason.

Tenez wrote:I don;t know but it seems very clear that all those who are active in teh sport, don;t want to talk about it. Be it journalists, commentators and players. However as soon as they leave the tour, they are all happy to talk about it.

Why? I don't know but there must be a good reason.

well, if they are all happy to sell their souls for a few silver pieces, so be it, why bother talking about it AFTER you've finished the career...very brave!

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:I don;t know but it seems very clear that all those who are active in teh sport, don;t want to talk about it. Be it journalists, commentators and players. However as soon as they leave the tour, they are all happy to talk about it.

Why? I don't know but there must be a good reason.

well, if they are all happy to sell their souls for a few silver pieces, so be it, why bother talking about it AFTER you've finished the career...very brave!

Yes. except that it is not about a few silver pieces. That's teh way we see it...not them. There is a huge gap between the top 3 and the rest of the tour money wise. That's why it's all about being at the very top.

In tennis winning a match doubles your earnings, winning 2 in a row quadruples it...if you have doubt that your opponent is on something, surely you want to do the same. That's why there is an omerta....I believe..cause what Noah doesn't know is that his suggestion theat it shoudl be "legalised", is already in place...just not officially, well hidden from us, fanboys and fangirls, anyway.

"In tennis winning a match doubles your earnings, winning 2 in a row quadruples it...if you have doubt that your opponent is on something, surely you want to do the same."

Hypthetical question, but I don't think I would, anyway.

I don't think Noah is talking about lower ranked players. The very fact he mentioned Spanish players doesn't make you think of any sub 100 ranked player, does it?

Also the "silver" does not necessarily mean any underhanded earnings, just signing to T&C about having to shut up while "living under their roof" and being allowed to earn the cash through their system is the same.

Yes but like Rochus said, it's not about Spanish players only. I do believe it is very much widespread.

Tenez wrote:Yes but like Rochus said, it's not about Spanish players only. I do believe it is very much widespread.

It is, but the heavy puncher here is not Rochus, but Noah, unlike Rochus he actually won something and he clearly does not allude to the lower ranked players nobody almost knows about, those probably earn more match fixing than anything else anyway....

http://www.ktvu.com/news/ap/crime/spanish-police-arrest-18-in-doping-ring/nF4QN/


Does Noah knows things tennis players don't?

Tenez wrote:http://www.ktvu.com/news/ap/crime/spanish-police-arrest-18-in-doping-ring/nF4QN/


Does Noah knows things tennis players don't?

ouch!

Tenez wrote:Does Noah knows things tennis players don't?

This does not imply every athlete is bad. It is a general problem. For example, use of Steroids in US Baseball by some top players, does not mean every one is a cheat.

The evidence from Puerto being made public is where the root of the problem lies. Every day it is kept out from public, the evidence is being slowly lost.

Glad to see you guys are willing to address this area.

It's certainly an important one...but beside pointing some weird cyclical patterns, what can we do? WADA is clearly less efficient than police and custom. JUst shows how useless the anti-doping agencies are.

Right....So Noah was talking some truth then.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/16905217

I wish the ATP/WTA/ITF was putting as much effort in catching the dopers. You might be aware that the Spanich cycling Federation was claiming Cantador was innocent!

We are talking 2 completely different sports.

Cycling has been riddled with doping cheats.

The same cannot be said for tennis.

At some point, Contador may be tempted to name other cyclists, like Landis did.

Omerta will be broken at some point in time.

LK... Tennis has had it's fair share, but it has been the low men/women on the totem pole, unlike cycling.

Granted LF lower men and women, but given that Agassi, Gasquet and Hingis were high profile 'recreational' drug taking and not PED. It tends to somehow get tarnished with the same brush as looking to cheat much rather than lifestyle choice.

Not sure how qualified Noah is making assumptions based on a sport that has evolved since his participation.

One example that comes to mind is a political one.

Clinton, the ex-US president, 'who inhaled'. In the 1960-80s, there was quite a bit of experimentation on recreational aspects of drugs. I would put Agassi, Hingis and Gasquet (to a lesser extent) in the same category.

But the whole Nadrolone saga, Odesnik, Canas, etc., are in a different category, IMVHO, then the recreational group.

Is it in the best interest of Tennis to expose it's stars? Commercially, it would be suicide. UCI is doing what other sports can only contemplate.

MLB (US Baseball) comes close to UCI with the desire to clean-up, but after the fact.

By all means. I agree that sometimes people need to distinguish between what is PED and what is recreational.

It is guess work how they 'clean' up sports. Not sure what the punishments are in tennis for players who miss random drug tests.

If there was a drug taker in the top of the tennis game, would certainly impact my feelings on the game.

Did anyone catch the line ups at the start of the superbowl...insane..arms like balloons! On another level to anything in men's tennis.

I wonder if we, as fans and spectators, are pushing too hard on the players which brings in the ugly commercial aspects and hence the pressure to perform.

The 127 at a slam are overshadowed by the one who wins the trophy.

Granted, they are rewarded, but not as much as the the winner.

Henman Bill wrote:Did anyone catch the line ups at the start of the superbowl...insane..arms like balloons! On another level to anything in men's tennis.

I watched it on and off. It is a much more physical game than Tennis or Cycling. There are quite a few long-term studies which point to problems in later life for such athletes.

legendkillar wrote:We are talking 2 completely different sports.

Cycling has been riddled with doping cheats.

The same cannot be said for tennis.

They are completely different sports but they are both sports requiring amazing energies and stamina nowadays. It woudl be absurd to think that tennis players are more righteous than cyclists. Money rules us all!

laverfan wrote:
LK... Tennis has had it's fair share, but it has been the low men/women on the totem pole, unlike cycling.

...you mean who got caught! Cause we know the likes of Agassi got under the radar.

This Agassi case seals it for me.

I really dislike the title of this article...

Tenez,

you know I'm an ignoramus when it comes to PEDs etc, what kind of difference would doping make in tennis, eg. how would've meth influenced Agassi's performance, or any of the other stuff .
Is it mind altering, does it give you boost of extra energy, strength, improve stamina...Are there different ones that do different things?

To someone like me all I notice is when a woman looks like a man (Stosur) that's odd, and cases like that. Agassi looked "normal", so there are obviously different things.

Tenez wrote:

laverfan wrote:
LK... Tennis has had it's fair share, but it has been the low men/women on the totem pole, unlike cycling.

...you mean who got caught! Cause we know the likes of Agassi got under the radar.

This Agassi case seals it for me.

I would be amazed if Crystal Meth would win you a Slam!

noleisthebest wrote:Tenez,

you know I'm an ignoramus when it comes to PEDs etc, what kind of difference would doping make in tennis, eg. how would've meth influenced Agassi's performance, or any of the other stuff .
Is it mind altering, does it give you boost of extra energy, strength, improve stamina...Are there different ones that do different things?

To someone like me all I notice is when a woman looks like a man (Stosur) that's odd, and cases like that. Agassi looked "normal", so there are obviously different things.

Meth is a powerful stimulant which has been used by soldiers in war environment and sport people alike. In small doses of course. Meth is famous for making you sharper, giving you even more time (you see in slo-mo) and boost your energy and confidence...but unlike cocaine it can last a match.

It's well documented if you want to know about it. SO you know that Agassi's reflexes were essential in his return game and when you are down the ranking like he was, a well control dose of meth might be the perfect substance to get reflexes, enrgy and confidence back.

And unlike the rumour it's not as hilighly as addictive as some may think. I have read enough about it to know it;s a powerful stimulant and for WADA there is no such drugs as recreational.

Tenez wrote:Right....So Noah was talking some truth then.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/16905217

I wish the ATP/WTA/ITF was putting as much effort in catching the dopers. You might be aware that the Spanich cycling Federation was claiming Cantador was innocent!

The verdict was handed down by a three-man jury consisting of Israeli Efraim Barack, Quentin Byrne-Sutton of Switzerland and German Ulrich Haas.

A statement from Cas read: "The panel found that there were no established facts that would elevate the possibility of meat contamination to an event that could have occurred on a balance of probabilities.

"Unlike certain other countries, notably outside Europe, Spain is not known to have a contamination problem with clenbuterol in meat.

"Furthermore, no other cases of athletes having tested positive to clenbuterol allegedly in connection with the consumption of Spanish meat are known.

"The panel concluded that both the meat contamination scenario and the blood transfusion scenario were, in theory, possible explanations for the adverse analytical findings but were, however, equally unlikely.

"In the panel's opinion, on the basis of the evidence adduced, the presence of clenbuterol was more likely caused by the ingestion of a contaminated food supplement."

In June 2011, Contador said: "From the beginning of the season I've been the rider who's had the most doping tests, and I've been tested in all the races I've been in."

Hence overall conclusion contaminated food supplement.

In June 2011, Contador said: "From the beginning of the season I've been the rider who's had the most doping tests, and I've been tested in all the races I've been in."

Just shows those tests are/were useless. Only because a German lab took over that they found the traces.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Tenez,

you know I'm an ignoramus when it comes to PEDs etc, what kind of difference would doping make in tennis, eg. how would've meth influenced Agassi's performance, or any of the other stuff .
Is it mind altering, does it give you boost of extra energy, strength, improve stamina...Are there different ones that do different things?

To someone like me all I notice is when a woman looks like a man (Stosur) that's odd, and cases like that. Agassi looked "normal", so there are obviously different things.

Meth is a powerful stimulant which has been used by soldiers in war environment and sport people alike. In small doses of course. Meth is famous for making you sharper, giving you even more time (you see in slo-mo) and boost your energy and confidence...but unlike cocaine it can last a match.

It's well documented if you want to know about it. SO you know that Agassi's reflexes were essential in his return game and when you are down the ranking like he was, a well control dose of meth might be the perfect substance to get reflexes, enrgy and confidence back.

And unlike the rumour it's not as hilighly as addictive as some may think. I have read enough about it to know it;s a powerful stimulant and for WADA there is no such drugs as recreational.

Thanks Tenez. I know I can read about it on the net, just don't know where to start, esp. with the notorious "PEDS". As soon as it starts getting medical and hypothetical my eyes glaze over .

It would be good if you could do a little write-up on how various "substances" actually affect tennis players. I'm sure they are all different in different sports.

Just something short and "sweet", Dope for Dummies kind of thing

Besides those PEDs making you sharper (meth) you have 3 other types of drugs:

Those adding muscle mass (Steroids, HGH, IGF): For years, the way to generate power with a racquet was to hit a flat shot or taking the ball early. Now with teh new string technology, one can hit hard and safe (topspinning). This is why bigger muscles in upper body can actually have their utility in tennis. It can be obvious in teh women's game. With thin arms you have no choice but to time the ball better and flater to generate the same pace. Those drugs are also allowig a big frame to move better. In the past big frames were simply bad movers. That's not the case anymore. They have big legs and can be extremely mobile...like we coudl not see 5 years ago.

Then you have drugs which increase stamina (ie EPO). It simply increases the O2 the blood can carry. That's why we can possibly see players able to "run a marathon like sprinters" (Agassi's words). The obvious signs are big veins around the arms and even legs.

You also have drugs like Clenbuterol which simply burn all fat in your body and make you look like a body builder where yuo can see every vein and muscle fiber underneath a very thin skin.

Drugs were already common in tennis in the 80s and 90s but now it's taken to a new dimension....that's my view anyway.

Look at what happened to Odesnik. No Wada or ITF test could catch him...but the AO customs did get him red handed. However I suspect he threatened to talk and give names so they reduced his time. Remember the excuse they gave us was that his term was reduced cause he was going to cooperate and help how improve drug control in tennis.

Was a joke.

Tenez wrote:Besides those PEDs making you sharper (meth) you have 3 other types of drugs:

Those adding muscle mass (Steroids, HGH, IGF): For years, the way to generate power with a racquet was to hit a flat shot or taking the ball early. Now with teh new string technology, one can hit hard and safe (topspinning). This is why bigger muscles in upper body can actually have their utility in tennis. It can be obvious in teh women's game. With thin arms you have no choice but to time the ball better and flater to generate the same pace. Those drugs are also allowig a big frame to move better. In the past big frames were simply bad movers. That's not the case anymore. They have big legs and can be extremely mobile...like we coudl not see 5 years ago.

Then you have drugs which increase stamina (ie EPO). It simply increases the O2 the blood can carry. That's why we can possibly see players able to "run a marathon like sprinters" (Agassi's words). The obvious signs are big veins around the arms and even legs.

You also have drugs like Clenbuterol which simply burn all fat in your body and make you look like a body builder where yuo can see every vein and muscle fiber underneath a very thin skin.

Drugs were already common in tennis in the 80s and 90s but now it's taken to a new dimension....that's my view anyway.

Look at what happened to Odesnik. No Wada or ITF test could catch him...but the AO customs did get him red handed. However I suspect he threatened to talk and give names so they reduced his time. Remember the excuse they gave us was that his term was reduced cause he was going to cooperate and help how improve drug control in tennis.

Was a joke.

Thanks Tenez . Looking at a lot of tennis players' legs these days they all seem to be on something

noleisthebest wrote:Thanks Tenez . Looking at a lot of tennis players' legs these days they all seem to be on something

I am surprise the short shorts a la McEnroe or Borg hasn't returned to fashion by Nike or Taccini. Well surprised, a way of saying, cause I am pretty sure the legs are too big nowadays to make it nice to the eye. Rememeber those legs of Wilander and borg? they were pretty lean.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Thanks Tenez . Looking at a lot of tennis players' legs these days they all seem to be on something

I am surprise the short shorts a la McEnroe or Borg hasn't returned to fashion by Nike or Taccini. Well surprised, a way of saying, cause I am pretty sure the legs are too big nowadays to make it nice to the eye. Rememeber those legs of Wilander and borg? they were pretty lean.

I remember Mc's, they were so "unfit" they looked tubby....Wilander looked great...Yes, today's players would look like freaks today, it would be amusing to make them pose in the 80s stuff....I wasn't aware of it until I saw this photo of Tipsarevic somewhere, maybe it was even here, his thighs looked disgusting. Legs are so, so difficult to pump like that in a natural way.

I must say, I do like Nole's legs, just perfect .

noleisthebest

"I must say, I do like Nole's legs, just perfect ."

I think you should do a poll. "Whose legs are the nicest"...

hawkeye wrote:noleisthebest

"I must say, I do like Nole's legs, just perfect ."

I think you should do a poll. "Whose legs are the nicest"...

We're not talking about "nice" legs here....Google Wooffie and Rafa for more.

I'm sorry. So you don't think Nole's legs are the nicest. You prefer Wooffie's (?) and Rafa's?

These Spanish players were not developed on paella's guys, so what was it then?

It is amazing that since the random testing which was announced in 2009, Nadal's game suddenly looks quite a bit fragile compared to before the random testing.

Or is this of course just a coincidence?

Josiah Maiestas wrote:These Spanish players were not developed on paella's guys, so what was it then?

It is amazing that since the random testing which was announced in 2009, Nadal's game suddenly looks quite a bit fragile compared to before the random testing.

Or is this of course just a coincidence?

I disagree, tbh rafa has been playing well. He has hardly missed any tournaments. He has made into last 4 slam finals which certainly some achievment. I agree that rafa play defensive and negative tennis but atm I dont think his wins have not been fairer.

Nadals fans getting sweatier palms and shorter fingernails every moment the link between fuentes and tennis is mentioned...