An Early Christmas Present for Tenez

http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=15151&zoneid=25

Interesting read, would be interesting to see if and what comes out of it in the coming days...

I have got to say that the guy is an idiot.

I think Ferrer summed it up perfectly.

Noah is hardly the benchmark of the sport.

Noah is an idiot for writing such a libelous statement. There are grounds for legal action here.

There is something to be said, in a similar vein, about the East German swimmers, and then their coaches going to China and similar results followed. But innuendo is not a good way of making a sport drug-free.

Operacion Puerto results being publicly available, including the samples in storage, would address, as Samaranch Jr. says, the skeleton's in the closets.


IOC member from Spanish IOC member, Juan Antonio Samaranch, Jr., lashed out at the ongoing Operation Puerto investigation.
“In Spain there are three powers, and the judiciary has done a really stupid thing in keeping the issue of Operacion Puerto secret and preventing it from being used,” Samaranch told the German Press Agency DPA in an interview.

“I don't understand it, I really don't understand it! Take all those bags, turn the lights on and call the typists, and get all the dirty laundry out onto the street!”

Samaranch believes the investigation into a blood doping scandal in Spain, which has gone on for several years, could hurt Madrid’s chances to secure the 2016 Olympics.


http://www.aroundtherings.com/articles/view.aspx?id=32245

Le Monde is already in trouble and has been fined once. Noah may not have to pay a single euro, but Le Monde might.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/le-monde-fined-over-operacion-puerto-report

This is outrageous! He sounds like a small wining child who hasn't got his way he has just gone down in my books chhhh!

LuvSports! wrote:This is outrageous! He sounds like a small wining child who hasn't got his way he has just gone down in my books chhhh!

Would you like to see Operacion Puerto details, blocked by Spanish judges, be made available in public domain?

Shocked to read that former French Open champion Yannick Noah wants doping to be legalised. Without offering any proof he beleives that many successful athletes are already using what he calls "magic potions". He believes all athletes should be able to use "magic potions" without sanctions. I am not sure what personal interest Noah may have in the subject although I do believe he has a son who plays professional basketball.

The french sports minister is unsurprisingly not happy with his comments

French Minister for Sports David Douillet condemned Noah's accusations as irresponsible, and said he hoped to introduce a criminal penalty for doping.


"What are we saying in reality when we want to institutionalize doping? We imagine that our children will die at 40 or that 12-year-old kids will take pills in the locker room, that's what that means," Douillet said on France 2 television.


http://espn.go.com/tennis/story/_/id/7254788/former-tennis-star-yannick-noah-believes-spanish-athletes-doping

What a bitch.

Lets legalise cheating so that our children can learn to be duplicitous and cut throat. In the process they can jeopardise their health and the health of their children should they have them.

There is often a huge demand for the experienced professionals to give advice and analysis - but sometimes you just want them to shut the **** up.

If he truly believes that many top sportsman are taking drugs and doesn't think there's a way to stop them then maybe what he's advocating doesn't seem so outrageous. If it's always going to be the way he believes it is then in the interests of a fair competition he's just trying to level the playing field.

I am fairly open minded on the whole issue; it's been said at nausea how the checks put in place by the ITF are simply pathetic.

Said that:
- the guy doesn't offer any evidence and is not the most reliable around
- the rivalry between Spanish and French peaple is well known and must be taken into account
- the Spanish team is no longer the invincible armada they were once, bad timing to come out with such an argument
- Don't understand the point of being "beefy" : what about the Rugby players then? I am 6 feet 1 inches tall and weight 92 kilos, never lifted weights in my life......

Said that I think it's more likely than not that they do it in some degrees, just my opinion.....

Whether they do it or not is not in question - they do - but what kind of message does that send out. Don't get to the top through hard work and determination - use drugs to get ahead - take the easy way out.

I'm primarily a boxing fan and casual fan in many others and I know theres more corruption in boxing than any other sport. But the anyone does it defense doesn't really cut it - theres always someone like Ali or Marquez or even Floyd Mayweather, then theres Federer, Murray, Nadal - people who just make it to the top with their own skill and can inspire others to that dedication which makes it all worthwhile. I think in Tennis especially the mens game where its been all about power and the triumphs of Federer in particular with him sublime skills prove that hard work can make a success.

I don't want to sound like a daily mail nut but sport has a responsibility to wield its power and influence for positive reasons to the public - everything they win and all the accolades they get would be nothing if people didn't pay to watch. I think it will also have a detrimental affect on the number of viewers as people want to watch a sport rather than guessing who has had the best drugs.

Fair enough Shah but remember those that take drugs probably work hard too and their determination is arguably more single minded if it allows them to bend their morals that way, either that or they had weak morals to begin with. Perhaps with the world the way it is and with more money in sport than ever before this is what it is coming to. If there was less money then there would be more people competing for 'honour' and therefore less willing to put themselves at risk by taking drugs.

Thanks NITB for this lovely present.

I had already read it though but thanks for bringing it up to all here.

I am of course going to defend Noah here. First cause I think it is nice to see someone talk his mind without the fear of libel and other kind of persecution. A bit like the 99% versus 1%, we can supress and repress but at the end any form of imposed force containing truth or freedom, has got to let go.

Secondly cause Noah is simply expressing facts. Whether those facts are down to chance, simply better training or foul play we don't know 100%.

But that is where Spain is fully responsible. For those who have followed Operacion Puerto with the list and blood bags of many athletes, they 'd know that what prevented the full investigation of this case and release the names on those blood bags is that at the time (2004/6) doping was not illegal in Spain!!! This is why out of the many names, only some German and Italian names were given away. This is simply not acceptable from a country which financially benefited so much from sport.

I have never heard of anyone being dragged to court for saying East Germany or China were suspicious. I'd like to know whether those who criticise Noah here have never said anything against East German swimmers or Chinese gymnasts.

Spain is no different. Up to recently they wanted to destroy those blood bags (and they may have succeeded) instead of trying to bring some light to that "Operacion".

Hello



Homies n peeps. Finally the day has dawned. Let the finals commence...

WRT the OP, I agree with Tenez.

Clearly there has been a huge cover up with the Fuentes saga.

By not releasing the names of those athletes Spain has subjected herself to suspicion, and rightly so.



emancipator - may the serve be with you.

Why is this a christmas present?

I don't think Noah is really advocating the legalising of PEDs.

I think he was expressing espasperation at the system which allows drug cheats to be successful and was bemoaning the lack of a level playing field.

I take his statements as more like 'if we can't be bothered to fully investigate drug allegations then why don't we just let everyone take them' ie, using one extreme (the wholesale allowance of PED use) to highlight another existing extreme (the existing widespread, in his opinion, use of PED's).

Does anyone understand what I'm trying to say?

emancipator wrote:Does anyone understand what I'm trying to say?

I do. That's the way I read it too.

hawkeye wrote:Why is this a christmas present?

You don't have to answer I have just figured it out. It was a bit contrived so it took me a while.

Noah wants doping legalised. He does this by saying it is widespread outside his own country anyway. He then points a finger at the big sporting rivals of France Spain. The least favourite tennis player of at least 2 of the posters here on 606v2 is Spanish. With a bit of "luck" some of the dirt may rub off on him... and then you'll both be happy for christmas...

break_in_the_fifth wrote:Fair enough Shah but remember those that take drugs probably work hard too and their determination is arguably more single minded if it allows them to bend their morals that way, either that or they had weak morals to begin with. Perhaps with the world the way it is and with more money in sport than ever before this is what it is coming to. If there was less money then there would be more people competing for 'honour' and therefore less willing to put themselves at risk by taking drugs.

Of course they do - I'm not saying that they don't - but the perception is that the easy way out otherwise they wouldn't do it. People at the top of the sport get there because they are good enough/ Skilled enough - but if those drugs are sanctioned then the very top is always under suspicion and it takes away the advantage people get by just working that little bit harder or that little bit smarter. How easily are people of muscled builds dismissed when there are rumours of steroids?

I'm not saying that they should play for honour even though i'd like them to - they should get the most out of their talent and the best of luck to them. But if they need to cheat then they should stay away and stop ruining what is an inspiration for the rest of us. How many times have you seen nadals unending stamina and though I wish I could do that and let it inspire you to push that little bit harder in something you were doing. Or practising Federers delicate work up close. I just feel it would take away the last element of sport about it and turn it completely into business.

Emancipator - I wish I could see it that way but this resignation to cheats is another indication of the spinelessness in some people, its difficult so you know what - lets legalise it so we can do it too.

"The best attitude to adopt is to accept doping. And then everyone will have the magic potion."

This in particular - he doesn't offer the other option - which is to impose the fantastic french system across the board - the same with the olympics. The BOA policy of refusing to allow drug cheats back in is brilliant and I wish it would be practised everywhere else too. Perhaps every prize should come with a stipulation saying that if you are subsequently found to have cheated then you must return the prize money - with no "statute of limitation". That way if you do it - you do it knowing full well everything you have ever won will be sullied and you will end up losing everything you have gained.

g

Tenez wrote:

emancipator wrote:Does anyone understand what I'm trying to say?

I do. That's the way I read it too.

You don't think its got anything to do with his son the professional basketball player being arrested for drug possession then?




http://chicagoist.com/2008/05/25/joakim_noah_arr.php

ShahenshahG wrote:I'm primarily a boxing fan and casual fan in many others and I know theres more corruption in boxing than any other sport. But the anyone does it defense doesn't really cut it - theres always someone like Ali or Marquez or even Floyd Mayweather, then theres Federer, Murray, Nadal - people who just make it to the top with their own skill and can inspire others to that dedication which makes it all worthwhile. I think in Tennis especially the mens game where its been all about power and the triumphs of Federer in particular with him sublime skills prove that hard work can make a success.

So you know who does and who doesn't do it? At least you seem to know those who don't. How do you draw such conclusions?

Morning guys, whilst this is in the press it is ok to discuss Noah's comments, but we have to be careful that there are no libellous posts about players who may or may not be doping.
Im sure you will understand.
Thanks.

Also, to help keep the section tidy, Im going to merge this article with the other one. (As it gets confusing with comments on both threads about the same subject)

Thanks for that Y I - i've lost four paragraphs of a post because the topic didn't exist anymore!

Sorry

While I don't agree with Noah's comments, and even less so with his suggestion that drugs be made legal (the reason they aren't is because they are detrimental to the sportsman health), I think some of the points are valid. The main point is that Spain has, at the very best, a very lax attitude to doping in sport. At worst, they appear to openly encourage it (see some of the official comments in the Contador case), which is worrying. Reminds me of Jamaica in athletics, and USA in pretty much all sports. Do I believe it's institutionalised doping like in East Germany and maybe China? No, but there's no doubt that attitude dosen't discourage their athletes very much.

In fact, tennis in general seems to be pretty lax with respect to doping. I can't remember the last top ten player who was caught doping...

Despite coming from the same piece of news, it's actually 2 different subjects. One is about legalising doping...the other was about Noah's view on doping at country level.

Never mind you weren't to know. Can't type too much with one hand. Mad for Chelsea - Top ten people get tested at least a dozen times a year and sometimes out of competition to - could be a big deterrent. Check out federer who got tested I think 24 times in one year.

laver fan - no need im a massive road cycling fan

ShahenshahG wrote:Never mind you weren't to know. Can't type too much with one hand. Mad for Chelsea - Top ten people get tested at least a dozen times a year and sometimes out of competition to - could be a big deterrent. Check out federer who got tested I think 24 times in one year.

ITF has these statistics to support your argument...

http://www.itftennis.com/antidoping/news/statistics.asp

For example, look at 2009.... - http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_47414_original.PDF

Notice how many Out-of-Competition Blood tests there are - 10 in 2010.

So if a player is clean close to a competition like a slam, other times, Blood testing is non-existent.

Urine testing is much simpler than Blood, but still, 10 is a very small number.

LuvSports! wrote:laver fan - no need im a massive road cycling fan

Understandably, Tennis fans lament this in tennis, but you, as a fan of Cycling, have it even tougher than tennis fans.

haha sorry if that sounded mean lf. Ye cycling has probably the worst rep for it and my current idol contador is in the middle of a ridiculously long and drawn out case that he got accused of over a year ago and it wont be concluded until january but if he is a cheat, i pray he isn't, he gottttaaa go :/

I will say this for cycling though, unlike athletics they seem committed to get the dopers out of the sport (mostly anyway).

LuvSports! wrote:haha sorry if that sounded mean lf. Ye cycling has probably the worst rep for it and my current idol contador is in the middle of a ridiculously long and drawn out case that he got accused of over a year ago and it wont be concluded until january but if he is a cheat, i pray he isn't, he gottttaaa go :/

Goodluck to you and Contador, both.

Y I Man wrote:Also, to help keep the section tidy, Im going to merge this article with the other one. (As it gets confusing with comments on both threads about the same subject)

I think they were different subjects!

I have to say I'm not happy to have my serious article (that actually had some content and not just a link) reduced to a comment on a thread about nolisthebests dubious christmas present to Tenez. I thought that thread was trouble making and now I have been tidied up into it...

Out of Competition tests? They are a joke. once a year...2 at best when the season is over to make sure everybody is clean...and a panic room does the tric get rid of possible testers.

This was an interesting post that I came across on another forum.. Makes you wonder.

"We have a country that had a record that was about the same, or worse than other similar sized countries for many decades, yet VERY suddenly (in 1992 when the olympics were coming to their country), they had a dramatic improvement in their athletic performances. This improvement has held steady, or increased for 20 straight years. Spain, in 2010, outperformed the USA, a country with about 5x the population, and many drugged athletes of it's own.

Spain is a relatively poor country, with very poor facilities in sports outside of a few major sports (football, tennis, cycling). Yet we are seeing tremendous performances from Spain, across the board in all sports. Most of these performances are PHYSICALLY ORIENTED (speed, strength, endurance).

Admitted doping doctor, Fuentes has been caught twice by the Guardia Civil, and both times, he threatened to squeal (out Spain's sordid doping record). Both times he was let go to continue his doping activities.

NOT ONCE has a large Spanish sporting "hero", been caught, without the Spanish authorities "exonerating" them. Valverde, Contador, Dominguez, Bezebeh,...

Spain's judiciary has covered up the list of doping doctor, Fuente's clients for more than 5 years. Spain did not take action against any of Fuente's Spanish clients, but they did release the names of a few non-Spanish cyclists. Since most of Fuente's clients were Spanish, there is only one rational explanation for this.

Jaime Lissavetzky (former Spanish minister for sport) lied about there only being cyclists on the Fuentes list (we know for a fact that "Operation Galgo" was conducted last year, because of track athletes being on the Fuentes list). Of course Fuentes confirms that there are footballers, track athletes, and tennis players that were his clients.

Spain's president interfered with Contador's hearing, forcing the RFEC to make a last minute change to it's decision from a one year ban to no ban at all.

We have a Spanish doctor performing "PRP treatments" in Spain. He is getting miraculous results, curing athletes of tendonitis. This procedure has been proven to work no better than a placebo in other parts of the world. As a matter of fact a Canadian doctor (Galea) who uses this procedure was caught carying PEDs across the US boarder. This procedure is likely a ruse to inject IGF1 for strength enhancement.

Spain is a well known destination to get PEDs. Many non-Spanish athletes train in Spain (it is believed they do so because of the ease of access to PEDs).

We have an athlete from those 1992 Barcelona Olympics, who saw first hand, as an athlete, and as the wife of the main doping doctor (Fuentes), tacitly admit that the Spanish olympic squad was doped up.

You had many Spanish cyclists testing positive for PEDs in 2010. You had a Spanish swimmer miss three out of competition tests in 2010. You have a Spanish tennis player squealing like a stuck pig about out of competition tests.

We have athletes like Rochus, and Noah who are implictely, or explicitely raising suspicions about Spanish athletes.



The evidence is staring at you in the face, but you refuse to see it.

It's called denial."

emancipator wrote:Jaime Lissavetzky (former Spanish minister for sport) lied about there only being cyclists on the Fuentes list (we know for a fact that "Operation Galgo" was conducted last year, because of track athletes being on the Fuentes list). Of course Fuentes confirms that there are footballers, track athletes, and tennis players that were his clients.

Did you know this guy is now the WADA European representant? It's like hiring a fox to look after the hens.

The plot thickens...

http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=15157&zoneid=25

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics/15743767.stm

2 important sport organisation directors say WADA is toothless...including WADA's director himself!

Who is the Spanish tennis player who is "squealing like a stuck pig about out of competition tests".

There's nothing libellous about answering that.

bogbrush wrote:Who is the Spanish tennis player who is "squealing like a stuck pig about out of competition tests".

There's nothing libellous about answering that.

Ahem...cough, cough....
http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=15162&zoneid=4

So Nadal is the guy complaining? I don't know if that article constitutes the same.

I think if that's true then there's nothing wrong about saying it. If indeed he does complain then he puts his opinion into the public domain and referencing it is harmless. If he doesn't then does anyone know who does espouse that view?

When you realise that some players complained of having OOC tests when those OOC tests actually occur between 0 to 2 a year max per player!!!

We were meant to believe testers were constantly hassling them.

Tbf. The first name came to my mind after reading this was - TENEZ!
Tenez'd persistence pays off.

I see Llodra has come out to apologise for Noah's comments...
http://tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=15157&zoneid=25

lydian wrote:I see Llodra has come out to apologise for Noah's comments...
http://tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=15157&zoneid=25

How can Mr A possibly apologise for Mr B's comments? It's absurd!

If I was Yannick Noah I'd tell Llodra to say something himself that anyone is interested to hear, then he can apologise for upsetting anyone.

Personally, I can only refer to what someone else said; nobody thought it was immoral or outrageous when we used to say that East German ladies were all doped. Remember Marita Koch?! So why shouldn't he point to the universal improvement across sporting pursuits of one nations representatives, and cross reference that to a less than stellar performance in openness and testing? Seems perfectly reasonable to me, and any Spanish complaints have to be treated as potentially not disinterested.

bogbrush wrote: How can Mr A possibly apologise for Mr B's comments? It's absurd!

Can I just apologise that BB asked that question. possibly?

Whether or not Llodra can apologise for someone else is another matter (politicians do it all the time) but he has nonetheless, which implies people within the French tennis set-up obviously dont agree with Noah's view.

People can make allegations of any nature...but at the end of the day there needs to be clear evidence if making specific types of allegations or else Noah could find himself in very hot water. However, he's kept the allegations probably general enough to not be in trouble. He's not that stupid...