Pacquaio vs. Marquez: SPOILERS!!! How do YOU feel?

by School Project Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:26 am

First topic message reminder :

Am I seeing the same thing here? Marquez is SCHOOLING Pacquiao?

It's Round 8 and I've got Marquez 5 rounds up...

by **oxring** Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:49 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:Serious, genuine question-suppose one fighter controls 2:30 of a round and his opponent is dominant in the last thirty seconds-who wins the round? Do you opt for the guy who had a longer spell of success or the guy who was successful as the round came to an end?

Excellent point - and genuinely - I don't believe there is a consistent way of looking at it.

Take Hopkins-Calzaghe, for instance. Calzaghe comes forwards for 2:30, landing more shots. Hopkins has 30 seconds of dominance and rocks JC to his boots with a thunderous straight and a hook. Who takes the round?

I have known people who favour who finishes a round. Funnily enough - none of them thought Hagler-Leonard was a robbery - and all gave it to SRL by clear margins for the flashy flurries at the end of a round.

Goes along with the rest of scoring a fight - there is no clear way of doing it, there is no set way of doing it and everyone favours their own particular aspect.

Personally - I would like to see the judges of last night's fight submit a written explanation of why they gave each round the way they did. They only get one opportunity to see the action - and they have a tough job. I don't think, however - if we got to see why each round was scored the way it was - so many would cry robbery after a close decision.

by **88Chris05** Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:49 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:Serious, genuine question-suppose one fighter controls 2:30 of a round and his opponent is dominant in the last thirty seconds-who wins the round? Do you opt for the guy who had a longer spell of success or the guy who was successful as the round came to an end?

If fighter A dominates a fight for ten rounds but fighter B has a cracking last two, would you score the fight to fighter B? Of course not. It should be no different when scoring rounds. If someone does dominate for 2.30 of a round then, barring a late knockdown, it's their round.

by **oxring** Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:50 pm

88Chris05 wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:Serious, genuine question-suppose one fighter controls 2:30 of a round and his opponent is dominant in the last thirty seconds-who wins the round? Do you opt for the guy who had a longer spell of success or the guy who was successful as the round came to an end?

If fighter A dominates a fight for ten rounds but fighter B has a cracking last two, would you score the fight to fighter B? Of course not. It should be no different when scoring rounds. If someone does dominate for 2.30 of a round then, barring a late knockdown, it's their round.

You've just written off the latter 1/2 of SRLs career then Wink

by BALTIMORA Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:52 pm

Atila wrote:Balti, that sounds like a Sugar Ray Leonard question. Didn't he say once that he had his trainer shout out when there were only 30 seconds left in the round, then he'd throw punches and in his mind win the round?

Yeah I think I've heard something similar about him. That's what I mean though; does that 2:30 of good work go out the window because the opponent's good thirty seconds comes after it?

by Scottrf Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:54 pm

I think strong dominance of the first 2:30 should need a knockdown to turn it, but a slight dominance should be overturned by a last 30 which rocks your opponent and has them holding on etc. In general I think it helps to look at 3 separate 1 minute sections.

by **owen10ozzy** Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:08 pm

Yet to see the fight so not going to comment on the scoring or anything as of yet! The one thing that may come out of this is that Mayweather licks his lips and gets himself into the ring with Manny...

Though the clammer for this fight may be a little less given peoples opinion on last nights fight & the fact the general consensus seems to be that Manny will be schooled. I hope the fight does come off just because I feel the 2 need to get it on to put boxing back on the map and show the big fights can be made. Whilst I have always thought that Floyd would win any contest I wouldnt write Manny off...even if his performance is as bad as it seems after reading this topic. The fact is styles make fights...every boxer tends to come across a fighter who just has their number & it could be that Manny is to Mayweather what Marquez has been to Manny ... i.e a pain in the backside!!

by BALTIMORA Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:50 pm

Full Compubox stats:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/view.php?pg=pacquiao-marquez-trilogy-compubox

Going on who landed more punches, Pacquiao would have won nine rounds. That indicates how misleading Compubox can be.

by Rowley Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:14 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:Full Compubox stats:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/view.php?pg=pacquiao-marquez-trilogy-compubox

Going on who landed more punches, Pacquiao would have won nine rounds. That indicates how misleading Compubox can be.

There are lies, damned lies and statistics - Benjamin Disraeli.

by Scottrf Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:17 pm

Have you seen it yet rowley?

by BALTIMORA Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:19 pm

Bigragu had it 117-111 Marquez. Gave Pacquiao rounds 1, 6 and 12.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7cdgJ38F1o&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Wider than I thought but who am I to say? He validated his argument.

by BALTIMORA Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:20 pm

And yes rowley, you're spot on about the stats.

by Scottrf Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:20 pm

Same as me I think apart from I had a drawn first.

by Rowley Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:21 pm

Yes mate, watched it this morning, did not know the result and obviously at 10 in the morning was sober as a judge and simply cannot see any result other than Marquez, the only debate is how clearly. Have we really reached a point where just aimlessly plodding forward wins rounds? Even in the first and 9th when the judges were calling for Manny I was not convinced he did enough, thought he threw a lot but landed next to nothing, the quality and accuracy was always with Marquez and their body language afterwards told that both of them knew it.

by tcribb Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:23 pm

Has anyone ever watched a fight in the flesh at the arena, then scored it completely different when re watching it on tv?

It's the only explanation i can give why so many media have scored it differently to us tv audience is that Manny looked in control whilst watching it live in the arena, I mentioned it on another thread earlier Mosley v Oscar 2 gave a vastly different impression.

by Scottrf Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:25 pm

tcribb wrote:Has anyone ever watched a fight in the flesh at the arena, then scored it completely different when re watching it on tv?

Don't tend to watch them again, but I had Groves quite wide vs DeGale which I think might be closer on second inspection.

by **owen10ozzy** Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:29 pm

Compubox is as misleading as anyone wants it to be! Just like how you score a round i.e. aggression or counter punching..you can disect these stats as you wish. Yes Manny would have won 9 rounds based on who landed more, but based on accuracy you would have Marquez winning it 7 rounds to 5....Jabs would be a draw (6-6) etc etc. I think you have to take into context everything when looking at both a round and a fight statistics. As I have mentioned I have yet to see the fight...but If i was to use my usually judgement when it comes to compubox...which is:

A blend of accuracy and number of punches thrown..whereby I would usually consider the more accurate fighter to take a round than a busier fighter unless there is a difference of 5 or more punches landed.

The fight would be scored 7-5 Manny! Obviously i will be taking other things into consideration when watching such as ring smarts, ring control etc but just looking at the stats shows me that this is a close fight which could have gone either way.

Its interesting reading the board and seeing a fair few people say that Marquez controlled the fight alot of the time as for me the jab is pivotal to controlling a fight of this nature and for 9 of the rounds Pacman landed and threw the jab more often..in terms of accuracy it was very even!

Im actually glad ive seen these stats before seeing the fight as it will be enthralling to see if the fight plays out as I think it may do based on compubox.

I shall report back early morning with my conclusions.

by Boxtthis Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:34 pm

I've watched it twice, and scored it without commentary. I had Marquez 116-112. At a push I could have Marquez 115-113. At a crazy push 114-114. That's if you swing all the close rounds to Pacquiao. But, I honestly couldn't find another round in there to give him.

I guess this puts Mayweather well ahead of Pacquiao in most peoples mind. Marquez is a master of judging distance - Pacquiao was an inch away every time. I can't think how Mayweather wouldn't do the same to him.

by Volcanicash Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:59 pm

I had it 117-115 Marquez!! The hbo commentry was so pro pacquiao it was cringeworthy. Time for Lederman to retire.

I had Marquez winning 5 rounds, Pacman 3, with 4 I just couldn't split( rounds 3,8,10 and 11.

I give Marquez all the credit in the world as many thought he wouldn't be as effective at the weight but he looked in superb condition. I do feel if he finished the fight more active he would have won beyond all doubt.

One thing for sure, this fight has reinforced my opinion that pacman stands no chance against Mayweather, and it does look like he's on the decline, so maybe the fight will now happen!!

by BALTIMORA Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:05 pm

owen10ozzy wrote:Compubox is as misleading as anyone wants it to be! Just like how you score a round i.e. aggression or counter punching..you can disect these stats as you wish. Yes Manny would have won 9 rounds based on who landed more, but based on accuracy you would have Marquez winning it 7 rounds to 5....Jabs would be a draw (6-6) etc etc. I think you have to take into context everything when looking at both a round and a fight statistics. As I have mentioned I have yet to see the fight...but If i was to use my usually judgement when it comes to compubox...which is:

A blend of accuracy and number of punches thrown..whereby I would usually consider the more accurate fighter to take a round than a busier fighter unless there is a difference of 5 or more punches landed.

The fight would be scored 7-5 Manny! Obviously i will be taking other things into consideration when watching such as ring smarts, ring control etc but just looking at the stats shows me that this is a close fight which could have gone either way.

Its interesting reading the board and seeing a fair few people say that Marquez controlled the fight alot of the time as for me the jab is pivotal to controlling a fight of this nature and for 9 of the rounds Pacman landed and threw the jab more often..in terms of accuracy it was very even!

Im actually glad ive seen these stats before seeing the fight as it will be enthralling to see if the fight plays out as I think it may do based on compubox.

I shall report back early morning with my conclusions.

That was my whole point when I mentioned those stats-Pacquiao never won that many rounds.

by manos de piedra Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:15 pm

Oscar would have shut out Mayweather with those judges if we arguing Pacquiao winning based on aggression

by Rowley Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:16 pm

If plodding forward endlessly irrespective of what you land or what your opponent does is valued above anything else does make you wonder why David Tua is not an all time great.

by BALTIMORA Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:19 pm

If plodding forward is valued so highly then Margarito was robbed!!!

by johnson2 Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:23 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:If plodding forward is valued so highly then Margarito was robbed!!!

I know. 120-108 to Marg. Urgent investigation needed.

by manos de piedra Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:28 pm

If your Marquez, you would take a rematch for the money but how do you motivate yourself? He did everything he could do in that fight and was still judged the loser. He would be going into a future fight feling that only a KO will see him win. In that situation it would be desperately hard to put in the dedication in the training camp when you feel you are predestined to lose.

by **88Chris05** Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:31 pm

True, Manos; if I were Marquez, I'd refuse any fight with Pacquiao again, even if it were for mega money. Chances are it will take place in the same city with the same people promoting / televising it, and with similar people judging it. What makes anyone think he'd get a fair crack next time?

by Rowley Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:33 pm

manos de piedra wrote:If your Marquez, you would take a rematch for the money but how do you motivate yourself?

Too right go into the rematch knowing if you knock Manny out you might be able to get a draw, whats the point?

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:33 pm

Seems to be like a lot of great Mexicans ..a guy who loves a challenge and is always ready to fight..

He'll motivate himself because he has a legion of screaming fans that idolise him and the fight would be a big event..

by BALTIMORA Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:34 pm

manos de piedra wrote:If your Marquez, you would take a rematch for the money but how do you motivate yourself? He did everything he could do in that fight and was still judged the loser. He would be going into a future fight feling that only a KO will see him win. In that situation it would be desperately hard to put in the dedication in the training camp when you feel you are predestined to lose.

If I was Marquez I'd tell Arum the crook to stick a fourth fight up his fat corrupt ass. Marquez should feel utterly vindicated after his latest performance. Everyone with eyes knows he won. As you say; he was robbed last night, so why bother? Add to this that he IS still 38 and there's every chance a rematch could be the one too far, and personally I'd hate to see him lose legitimately because he finally aged enough.

by BALTIMORA Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:35 pm

88Chris05 wrote:True, Manos; if I were Marquez, I'd refuse any fight with Pacquiao again, even if it were for mega money. Chances are it will take place in the same city with the same people promoting / televising it, and with similar people judging it. What makes anyone think he'd get a fair crack next time?

Exactly. He'd no doubt have to sign with Top *ank again. No way is Arum gonna lose a Pacquiao-Mayweather mega money fight.

by BoxingFan88 Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:38 pm

Just saw the fight and I was really struggling to give manny any clear rounds. Might be my bias to marquez but he dominated the fight. They couldn't even find highlights for manny at the end, that's how one sided it was, clearest of the 3!

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:42 pm

If the sanctioning body get a percentage of the purses.......maybe we need to spread the blame....

by BoxingFan88 Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:47 pm

Can't see a case for 12 to pacquiao and 1 is also debatable, manny landed a good straight left but marquez landed some very good body shots, could go either way. In my opinion there was not a single clear round you could give to manny.

by Super D Boon Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:58 pm

Never cared much for Mayweather v Pacquaio anyway but hopefully the fight will be made and Mayweather will batter him!

by BoxingFan88 Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:00 pm

The chance of beating Mayweather for me hasn't changed. Pacquiao has a chance in the first 5 rounds whilst Mayweather is figuring him out. Counter punchers are vulnerable early, after that he is going to get dominated. In fights 2 and 3 Marquez was able to continue where he left off in the previous fights.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:02 pm

His workrate will give him a points advantage over Floyd early...The fight for me will be a bit like Honey-Starling.....although slightly more competitive..

Just counter him to death but take a while to wear him down..

by milkyboy Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:24 pm

haven't been able to see the fight but i'm not surprised by how it panned out... all those claiming this fight was a mismatch should be eating some humble...

slick counter-punchers will always give manny trouble and manny is looking more and more like a guy who's peaked.

to whoever was querying the marquez john fight, its on youtube... if you have an hour to waste you can watch it or you can take my word for it - it was a dull fight, close but no robbery. Marquez is seemingly as uncomfortable against guys who don't come to him as pacquaio, which might be why it took the money the mayweather fight offered him before he fought another one of note after john

by Scottrf Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:09 am

Spoiler:

by The Galveston Giant Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:44 am

Pacquiao just couldn't land on Marquez.

by Rowley Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:05 am

The Galveston Giant wrote:Pacquiao just couldn't land on Marquez.

That's the top and bottom of it, I have watched the fight twice now and simply cannot see how you can give Manny more than 4 rounds tops, Marquez had the answer to everything he tried to do, hit with greater accuracy. People keep talking about aggression but just because Marquez was not plodding forward he was aggressive, when Manny engaged he always threw back, the difference was Juan actually landed with his shots whereas Manny hit either fresh air or arms, rank bad decision, the fact we could all probably name worse is irrelevant.

by Valero's Conscience Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:07 am

What i'll say is nothing new to anything else above but JMM was robbed pure and simple.

Disgusting decision, Marquez won 8 clear rounds to me, but knew JMM wouldn't get the decision.

I watched the fight with 2 more casual fans and and one was biased to Pac and said with giving any 50/50 fights to Pac he still had JMM winning!

Feel gutted for JMM as he deserves at least 1 win against Pac but that will not be shown on his legacy, although I hope most in time will acknowledge him as the true winner and there will be an asterix against this win for Pac.

This is terrible for Pac, being beating on everything apart from the judges scorecards but someone hand-picked by his promoters from 2 weight divisions down due to him having history with Pac to sell the fight whilst having all the advantages to win!

If I was JMM I would never fight him again, i wouldn't give Pac the opportunity to get a valid win and attempt to hide this fight and with JMM getting older it may happen.

If I was JMM I would just sit back, proud that he DID win the fight and knowing that all genuine people know he won.

Ps - JMM is not the exact same style as Mayweather but after watching this fight, how anyone can think Pac would beat Mayweather must be crazy!

Roach must be sh!ting himself now, he probably knew Mayweather would be a favourite against his guy but he knows his stuff and after this fight, reality must of smacked him in the face. His guy can't deal with JMM and Floyd is even slicker than him.

Floyd would embarrass him.

by The Galveston Giant Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:10 am

rowley wrote:
The Galveston Giant wrote:Pacquiao just couldn't land on Marquez.

That's the top and bottom of it, I have watched the fight twice now and simply cannot see how you can give Manny more than 4 rounds tops, Marquez had the answer to everything he tried to do, hit with greater accuracy. People keep talking about aggression but just because Marquez was not plodding forward he was aggressive, when Manny engaged he always threw back, the difference was Juan actually landed with his shots whereas Manny hit either fresh air or arms, rank bad decision, the fact we could all probably name worse is irrelevant.

I had a quick glance at the HBO version and seen Marquez being interviewed after the fight in his dressing room, i felt so sorry for him.

by Rowley Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:13 am

I was heartbroken for him GG, at 38 he probably does not have too many more performances like that in him and struggle to see what he could do beyond what he did Saturday to tip things more in his favour. Am not one for conspiracy theories and am never keen to shout fix because scoring fights is subjective but the idea that anyone who knows the first thing about the sport could give the fight 8 rounds to 4 to Manny does not sit right with me at all, is simply not possible.

by manos de piedra Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:21 am

Had the scores been 114-114, 115-114, 114-113 To Pacquiao it would be bad enough, but in some sense you could say it was just a fortunate decision for Pacquiao.

But the problem I have is when I see a 116-112 card to Pacquiao. Because this to me indicates a clear bias and lack of impartiality. Basically each round started off as going to Pacquiao unless Marquez virtually dominated it, as opposed to each round starting off up for grabs and neutral.

by Scottrf Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:24 am

manos de piedra wrote:Had the scores been 114-114, 115-114, 114-113 To Pacquiao it would be bad enough, but in some sense you could say it was just a fortunate decision for Pacquiao.

But the problem I have is when I see a 116-112 card to Pacquiao. Because this to me indicates a clear bias and lack of impartiality. Basically each round started off as going to Pacquiao unless Marquez virtually dominated it, as opposed to each round starting off up for grabs and neutral.

That's what annoyed me too. Not necessarily the worst result in years, but some of the worst scorecards I've seen in years.

by Rowley Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:25 am

Fair point Manos because there were a couple of rounds that were close, they called the ninth as a big Manny round but personally I thought he missed with loads and ate a lot of counters so I called it for JMM, likewise in the first where I though Marquez landed enough to the body to take it but at least in those you could see the argument to give them Manny but for the life of me I cannot see where anyone could see 8 to Manny, as you say does call into doubts the impartiality.

by **rodders** Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:56 am

I haven't seen this fight yet but having watched their 1st 2 fights I'm not in the slightest bit surprised to hear that:

a) Marquez outboxed Pacquio
b) Pacquio got the descision.

Thought JMM won their last fight too and seems to have Pacquios number. Unfortunately Manny is just worth too much money so is always going to the the descision to keep the graveytrain rolling.

by The Galveston Giant Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:05 am

I hope Mayweather realises why the fight was scored the way it was, i fancy Mayweather to take a UD easy in this fight now.

by Guest Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:18 am

Just to add my considerably weighty and ahem...valuable opinion to this debate, I managed to watch a download of the fight last night and like many on here, I had Marquez as a pretty clear winner. I struggled to give Manny any more than four rounds. The decision was as bad if not worse than Sturm v DLH but again, like that fight, there were mega bucks at stake for a huge fight afterwards and without a KO, the decision was only ever going to go one way.

The problem as I see it now is that Marquez outboxed Manny to such a degree that I can't see how they can spin a potential fight with Floyd and Manny as being even remotely competitive. The much used "styles make fights" cliche will be worn away to nothing in a desperate attempt to convince people that Manny has a hope in hell and I believe a significant number of "floating voters" will now be firmly in Mayweather's camp.

Are people going to pay PPV money to watch what they will possibly now feel will be a one sided sparring session? Of course people will still cough up their money but I think they'll be rooting for a Manny win in hope rather than expectation after Saturday's performance.

Marquez was royally screwed at the weekend and whilst Arum appeared to be promising him a massive payday in May, I don't think there's enough money to make amends for that disgraceful shafting. Marquez fought brilliantly and deserves all the plaudits for making Manny look decidely average.

I can see Floyd schooling Manny, Amir Khan just beating Marquez and then a proposed match up between Floyd and Amir mooted for September next year. Perhaps on the undercard, the could have Manny/Marquez IV

by Rowley Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:24 am

While Truss' argument that money talks certainly has some validity you do have to wonder if Marquez would want another fight, he must look back at Saturday and genuinely question what more he can do to get the nod. At 38 does he have enough left in the well to not only perform as well as he did Saturday but better, which is apparently what is required should he want to get the nod.

by Guest Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:29 am

I can see Marquez saying "Sod it" and seeking a massive money spinner with Morales instead

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