606 Scorecards: Pacquaio vs. Marquez.

by School Project Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:50 pm

This is my last Pacquaio vs. Marquez thread of the day, but I thought it'd be nice to evaluate all of the scorecards ON THE NIGHT of (in my opinion) the worst example of judging since Holyfield vs. Lewis.

Here's scorecards of some of the most respected Boxing Journalists:

Spoiler:

As for us, what were your scorecards?

School Project: 117 - 112 Marquez.

by **88Chris05** Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:53 pm

Marquez for me, and by a fair old margin, too. I had it 116-112 and that was being generous to Pacquiao. The word 'robbery' gets over-used (such as in cases like De la Hoya-Trinidad, Lewis-Holyfield I or Hopkins-Taylor), but in this case, I feel it's entirely appropriate. Marquez won that fight and won it well.

by Rowley Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:57 pm

88Chris05 wrote:Marquez for me, and by a fair old margin, too. I had it 116-112 and that was being generous to Pacquiao. The word 'robbery' gets over-used (such as in cases like De la Hoya-Trinidad, Lewis-Holyfield I or Hopkins-Taylor), but in this case, I feel it's entirely appropriate. Marquez won that fight and won it well.

Can't add much to that have watched it twice and it was Marquez for me, suspect if I watch it another 50 times it will still be Marquez' fight and you only have to watch when the bell rings at the end of the 12th to know Manny knew that as well as anyone.

by Scottrf Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:58 pm

118-111 Marquez. I’ll admit there were a lot of close rounds but would be happier calling it a shoutout than a draw.

Ring Generalship: Marquez had the outside foot, was backing up so that Manny couldn’t sit on his punches or lead effectively and was in range to counter.
Defence: Marquez slipped, fell out of range etc, Pacquiao didn’t even move his head.
Effective Aggression: Marquez was leading as much and responding with accurate punches.
Clean Punching: Marquez as in all the highlights.

I don't see which of these areas Pacquaio was consistently better in. He wasn't the ring general just by having the centre because he never had Marquez in an area he could be effective. Aggressor is debateable, I thought he was quite passive. The other 2 areas he clearly lost in consistently.

The only way I think you can consistently give rounds to Pacquiao in my opinion is if you believe in 'taking the title from the champion'. Which is irrelevant in my opinion. You score a fight the same title fight or not.

by Steffan Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:01 pm

I have to watch the fight again to give an exact score as I was totally off it when I watched it on Saturday night plus I had half of the ravers at the party I was at walking infront of the TV and that but I had JMM up by about 2 rounds at the end. Will give a proper score when I get access to the full fight again. I had a feeling at the time it was gonna be Lewis v Holyfield 1 all over again although at least those dodgy judges had the decency to give it a draw

by **88Chris05** Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:03 pm

Scottrf wrote:The only way I think you can consistently give rounds to Pacquiao in my opinion is if you believe in 'taking the title from the champion'. Which is irrelevant in my opinion. You score a fight the same title fight or not.

Having looked at a few other forums and sites, I've seen a lot of die-hard Pacquiao fans banging that ridiculous old 'you have to really dominate and take a title from the champion to win it' drum. And yet, somehow, I doubt they were saying that when Pacquiao took Marquez's Super-Featherweight belt on a controversial and wafer-thin split decision back in 2008.

I agree with Scott, anyway. This idea that a challenger needs to drastically do more than a champion to win a title fight is nothing more than a hoary old myth left over from the No Decision era.

by Rowley Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:08 pm

88Chris05 wrote:

I agree with Scott, anyway. This idea that a challenger needs to drastically do more than a champion to win a title fight is nothing more than a hoary old myth left over from the No Decision era.

Again can only agree, this is BS of the highest order, at the start of each round each fighter has zero points for that round and whoever does the more effective work gets ten for the round, and depending on knock downs's or deductions his opponent gets nine or less, that is the only way fights should be scored. This have to take it from the champion idea really grinds my gears, it is not in the rules of any governing body, if you are judging fights on any criteria other than those that are published you are cheating.

by manos de piedra Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:11 pm

rowley wrote:
88Chris05 wrote:

I agree with Scott, anyway. This idea that a challenger needs to drastically do more than a champion to win a title fight is nothing more than a hoary old myth left over from the No Decision era.

Again can only agree, this is BS of the highest order, at the start of each round each fighter has zero points for that round and whoever does the more effective work gets ten for the round, and depending on knock downs's or deductions his opponent gets nine or less, that is the only way fights should be scored. This have to take it from the champion idea really grinds my gears, it is not in the rules of any governing body, if you are judging fights on any criteria other than those that are published you are cheating.

The problem is when you see a card like 116-112 to Pacquiao you start to believe its less a myth than a harsh reality. One can only assume the judge in question was adopting precisely that mentality that the challenger has to do more and any close rounds go to the champion.

by Rowley Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:12 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
rowley wrote:
88Chris05 wrote:

I agree with Scott, anyway. This idea that a challenger needs to drastically do more than a champion to win a title fight is nothing more than a hoary old myth left over from the No Decision era.

Again can only agree, this is BS of the highest order, at the start of each round each fighter has zero points for that round and whoever does the more effective work gets ten for the round, and depending on knock downs's or deductions his opponent gets nine or less, that is the only way fights should be scored. This have to take it from the champion idea really grinds my gears, it is not in the rules of any governing body, if you are judging fights on any criteria other than those that are published you are cheating.

The problem is when you see a card like 116-112 to Pacquiao you start to believe its less a myth than a harsh reality. One can only assume the judge in question was adopting precisely that mentality that the challenger has to do more and any close rounds go to the champion.

To be honest Manos I can only hope he is because the other options are too unsavoury to even contemplate.

by The Galveston Giant Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:18 pm

I had it 117-112 Marquez, i've got the HBO version now and will watch that one and score it again.

by BALTIMORA Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:25 pm

I didn't score it, and haven't watched it again fully, but I felt that Marquez would get at least a 115-113, just going on how I felt the judges would have seen it-that is, being lenient to Pacquiao. I wonder if this questionable decision will come back in a few years time to do what D4 has only dreamt of doing, and bite Pacquiao on the bum...

by John Bloody Wayne Mon 14 Nov 2011, 4:02 pm

MP JMM
R1 10| 9 |
R2 10| 9 |20/18
R3 10| 9 |30/27
R4 9 | 10 |39/37
R5 9 | 10 |48/47
R6 10| 10 |58/57
R7 9 | 10 |67/67
R8 9 | 10 |76/77
R9 10| 9 |86/86
R10 9 | 10 |95/96
R11 10| 9 |105/105
R12 10| 9 |115/114

I had Pacquiao winning.

by Strongback Mon 14 Nov 2011, 4:49 pm

Cash cows tend to get favourable decisions.

Fighters fighting away from home have to do more.

Rounds are rarely scored even.

Close rounds go to the champ.

In America a fighter that comes forward is favoured.

Nothing new in this.

by BALTIMORA Mon 14 Nov 2011, 4:59 pm

Strongback wrote:Cash cows tend to get favourable decisions.

Fighters fighting away from home have to do more.

Rounds are rarely scored even.

Close rounds go to the champ.

In America a fighter that comes forward is favoured.

Nothing new in this.

I'll go for the first option.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 14 Nov 2011, 5:25 pm

7-4-1.............116-113 Marquez..

by **Fists of Fury** Mon 14 Nov 2011, 5:39 pm

Having watched it again, and without the ridiculous commentary of the over-excitable Benny Ricardo I have changed my view just slightly.

After watching the fight live, I screamed robbery, thinking Marquez had it by about 4 rounds. However, after watching it without commentary there are a few things I've noticed.

1) There were a good few rounds where not a lot happened at all. Marquez went back, Pacquiao went forward, and they traded single punches. Initially I scored those to Marquez due to what I perceived to be the cleaner work, which is a fair case, but I do believe I was swayed by Ricardo getting overly excited every time Pacquiao shipped a punch. In hindsight, the American judges were always likely to give these to Pacquiao as the champion, the one walking forward and the cash cow. It might not be right, but it has always been that way over there.

2) Pacquaio seemed to land a few more per round (not sure what the official stats were), and whilst Marquez's punches were much crisper (and as such should earn him some rounds surely?) Pacquiao appeared to land slightly more frequently. On TV it may be easier to see these crisp punches than sat ringside owing to the angle of viewing, I'm not sure, but if the judges were seeing Marquez get outlanded, regardless of the effect of those punches, it isn't hard to see why they would give Manny that round.

3) I think that we may have been overly kind to Marquez in some rounds, given that we were all viewing him as a huge underdog and wishing him to do well. It reminds me of the Morales vs Maidana fight, in a way. You expect one guy to crush the other but when that doesn't happen you start thinking the underdog is winning by a country mile. I thought it at the time of that fight, but when I re-watched it I gave it to Maidana in a very close one after scoring it to Morales when watching it live.

So, my revised view is that a draw is about right, or a very close one to Marquez. However, for the reasons above, I could see why it could be scored in favour of Pacquiao. Nevertheless, there is still no way it was anywhere near 116-112. Unfair scorecards? Absolutely. Robbery? Not after a second viewing.

by The Galveston Giant Mon 14 Nov 2011, 5:44 pm

I know for a fact my 117-112 to Marquez could be tightened up, i have the HBO version ready to go. As for Benny he was getting a little excited, but i will not fault a man who carries a mullet like that.

by **88Chris05** Mon 14 Nov 2011, 5:51 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:Having watched it again, and without the ridiculous commentary of the over-excitable Benny Ricardo I have changed my view just slightly.

After watching the fight live, I screamed robbery, thinking Marquez had it by about 4 rounds. However, after watching it without commentary there are a few things I've noticed.

1) There were a good few rounds where not a lot happened at all. Marquez went back, Pacquiao went forward, and they traded single punches. Initially I scored those to Marquez due to what I perceived to be the cleaner work, which is a fair case, but I do believe I was swayed by Ricardo getting overly excited every time Pacquiao shipped a punch. In hindsight, the American judges were always likely to give these to Pacquiao as the champion, the one walking forward and the cash cow. It might not be right, but it has always been that way over there.

Fists, don't you think it's slightly irrational to change who you gave a round to based on that judges on the other side of the world might have made of them? (apologies if that's not what you've done, as I may have misinterpreted this point) Surely if you think a fighter has won a round, your card should show that, and shouldn't be influenced by what others may do?

Personally, I've watched the fight twice now, both times without any sound at all, which is a common thing for me. And literally, the only thing I can give to Pacquiao is workrate (different to being 'the aggressor') as he simply threw more. But in terms of accuracy, making the other man miss, controlling proceedings to suit himself rather than his opponent and avoiding the best shots of the other man, this was Marquez's fight all the way in my eyes. I'll stand by my robbery claim!

by **Fists of Fury** Mon 14 Nov 2011, 6:00 pm

It didn't cause me to change my view of rounds, chris, but it made me see why they may have scored rounds as they did (though by no means to the crazy extent of 116-112!).

The one thing that did make me change my view of some rounds was commentary, as I am easily swayed by it. The way Ricardo was going on you would have thought JMM was on the verge of knocking Wladimir out.

Bloody annoying when there are fights that are scored so differently depending on the outlook and views of the individual watching, isn't it?

On another note, the spring in Manny's step looked utterly gone throughout, didn't it? His feet had a leaden look that we haven't seen from him before, and it does make you wonder if age is starting to impact upon that buzzsaw style we saw utilised so well in his past fights. Marquez making him miss obviously has something to do with it, but he didn't appear to have the legs to close the gap or dart in and out as he did in their first two encounters and against the likes of Cotto. Worrying.

by Jukebox Timebomb Mon 14 Nov 2011, 6:28 pm

Can't blame Marquez if he doesn't want the 4th fight. How could he motivate himself to train for 8 weeks knowing that he'd probably get robbed again. I bet JMM will get nighmares about that slimey grin on Arums face.

by Strongback Mon 14 Nov 2011, 6:33 pm

I think Manny looked a lot smaller and less muscular than he did when he fought Hatton and Cotto for what its worth. I first noticed the marked reduction in physique at the Margo fight weigh-in.

I don't think the fight was a robbery. Marquez was winning some rounds by a very close margin and he paid for that given the way boxing is judged.

Better man on the night didn't win but the margin of victory was only a round or two for me.

by Volcanicash Mon 14 Nov 2011, 7:02 pm

I had it 117-115 Marquez.

5 rounds to Marquez, 3 to Manny, and 4 I couldn't split!! May have to watch again to determine the split rounds.

by vxrandall Mon 14 Nov 2011, 7:56 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:
Strongback wrote:Cash cows tend to get favourable decisions.

Fighters fighting away from home have to do more.

Rounds are rarely scored even.

Close rounds go to the champ.

In America a fighter that comes forward is favoured.

Nothing new in this.
I'll go for the first option.

seconded!

i had it 116-112 marquez the 4 rounds i gave to pac were 1, 3, 6 and 9. even if you convince me to give pac 11 and 12 it's still only a draw. and its a shame that american's cant see past some dude just throwing out lots of leather even if its missing at the expense of witnessing a counterpunching masterclass...perhaps judges should come from a country where they can appreciate the finer points of the sport a little better?

by manos de piedra Mon 14 Nov 2011, 8:38 pm

Fists I know your a Haye fan, so out of curiosity, do you think if Haye v Valuev was held in the States Valuev would have won? There were enough rounds in that where not a whole lot happened and one could give the rounds to the man coming forward for similar reasons as to why Pacquiao would be given rounds against Marquez.

I scored the fight 116-113 to Haye incidentally but I do feel that the only way Pacquiao could be given this fight is by basically searching for a way to give him it rather than scoring on a clean round by round basis and if one alters their scoring to accommodate situations like even rounds go to the champion or the guy cming forward gets the advanage then I would have to say Valuev beats Haye, Oscar beat Mayweather etc. I just dont think its the right approach and it would be better if people didnt achknowledge that brand of scoring as legitimate whether its tradition or not.

At the end of day I think if the fight is scored on a level playing field its hard to conclude anything other than a Marquez win which is why I think the phrase "robbery" is validated.

by Sugar Boy Sweetie Mon 14 Nov 2011, 8:44 pm

116-112 Marquez. Even a draw would've been a robbery.

by manos de piedra Mon 14 Nov 2011, 8:49 pm

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:116-112 Marquez. Even a draw would've been a robbery.

Im the same. 116-112 Marquez. And this is having watched it twice now once without commentary. I could entertain it maybe being closer, possibly Marquez just edging it but that would be with Pacquiao goggles on and I just cant see how he wins it.

by Sugar Boy Sweetie Mon 14 Nov 2011, 8:49 pm

Anyone got a good link to to rewatch the fight as I can't access it now, a PM would be much appreciated.

by vxrandall Mon 14 Nov 2011, 9:02 pm

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:Anyone got a good link to to rewatch the fight as I can't access it now, a PM would be much appreciated.

likewise - i would like to review my original scoring - i doubt it'll change much

by Sugar Boy Sweetie Mon 14 Nov 2011, 9:06 pm

Just seen on twitter Amir Khan has changed his tune and is now claiming manny won by a couple of rounds having watched it again. Joker.

by BALTIMORA Mon 14 Nov 2011, 9:08 pm

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:Just seen on twitter Amir Khan has changed his tune and is now claiming manny won by a couple of rounds having watched it again. Joker.

Translation: Khan has spoken to cockRoach and MannyPacyaow.

The slimy gutless little worm.

by SportsmanGC Mon 14 Nov 2011, 9:19 pm

I had it 117-113. I'm with the general consensus that this could be narrowed but only by looking to give pac rounds. I had a 10-10 for the first then a couple for marquez with pac taking a few near the middle then 10 and 11 i think.

I commented at the time of the fight that I thought manny looked like he had lost after the bell and actually seemed very embarrassed at the time of the result. He knew he lost that fight and I think that's the key indicator...the margins are essentially irrelevant - it was Marquez's fight and pac, roach and the rest knew it.

by AlexHuckerby Mon 14 Nov 2011, 9:21 pm

watched it twice with HBO commentary and gotta say it was a closer fight than most are making out... that being said i had it dead on 115-113 to marquez though do at times in a couple of rounds think JMM should have tried to put a real exclamation mark on the round to put them beyond doubt.

another thing it isnt mannys fault he got the decision. but will say i cant possibly see how one judge gave manny 8 rounds...

by **88Chris05** Mon 14 Nov 2011, 9:29 pm

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:Just seen on twitter Amir Khan has changed his tune and is now claiming manny won by a couple of rounds having watched it again. Joker.

I wondered how long it would be before Khan magically changed his mind! Dear me...In the moments between the final bell and the official decision, he was saying how clearly Marquez won and (quite shamefully, in my eyes) telling the world that he'd be willing to fight Marquez. Now, lo and behold, he's backing Pacquiao again.

Christ, and Khan wonders why people have a hard time warming to him?

by SportsmanGC Mon 14 Nov 2011, 9:29 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:watched it twice with HBO commentary and gotta say it was a closer fight than most are making out... that being said i had it dead on 115-113 to marquez though do at times in a couple of rounds think JMM should have tried to put a real exclamation mark on the round to put them beyond doubt.

another thing it isnt mannys fault he got the decision. but will say i cant possibly see how one judge gave manny 8 rounds...

i can agree with what your saying that people may have leant more towards marquez. However, I think even if you were beeing as generous to manny as possible i can;t see it being any more than a draw. being fair and scoring the fight as it should, it's clearly marquez by min 2 rounds, arguably 3, 4 or 5.

I was also expecting manny to come out and win the last...but i clearly had marquez in that round, definately did enough to put that round out of doubt and enough others for me.

by AlexHuckerby Mon 14 Nov 2011, 9:46 pm

as i say it was close but for me marquez pipped him to it but i feel the word robbery is just a bit too far, a poor close decision yes.

by vxrandall Mon 14 Nov 2011, 9:54 pm

88Chris05 wrote:
Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:Just seen on twitter Amir Khan has changed his tune and is now claiming manny won by a couple of rounds having watched it again. Joker.

I wondered how long it would be before Khan magically changed his mind! Dear me...In the moments between the final bell and the official decision, he was saying how clearly Marquez won and (quite shamefully, in my eyes) telling the world that he'd be willing to fight Marquez. Now, lo and behold, he's backing Pacquiao again.

Christ, and Khan wonders why people have a hard time warming to him?

i lost ALL respect for him when he was on sky sports as a pundit shortly after ariza had been sacked and he was talking all sorts of EDITED FOR TRYING TO BEAT THE SWEAR FILTER about the reasons....

by Scottrf Mon 14 Nov 2011, 9:57 pm

Excellent Khan quote:

Khan: 'I've not watched Prescott since I fought him'

Khan 20 seconds later: 'Yeah, Prescott starts well but usually fades down the stretch'

by OasisBFC Mon 14 Nov 2011, 10:01 pm

i watched the fight on HBO and had it a draw.
i really want to watch it again, as you lot know what you're talking about and i want to see if my judgement changed if i watch it again with a clear mind. i'd like to watch it again, preferably with uk commentary but any link would be great if you lot have one.

cheers.

by tcribb Mon 14 Nov 2011, 10:36 pm

I thought the commentary on Primetime was awful, the pair of them never shut up.

When will commentators learn and producers need to tell them, don't talk through the entrances.

Watched it once live and Marquez won for me, it wasn't a robbery by my eyes but a poor decision, won't be the last unfortunately. Pacquaio seems to have lost the energy and engine he had, against Mosley and Marquez he just seemed lacklustre for me, reminded me a bit of the latter Hamed days lost that buzz ans general buoyancy about him.

Think Khan v Marquez is a natural matchup, Manny needs to fight Floyd ASAP otherwise it's going to become irrelevant like Lewis v Tyson

by dangerous_mouse Mon 14 Nov 2011, 10:54 pm

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:116-112 Marquez. Even a draw would've been a robbery.

/\/\/\/\/\ THIS /\/\/\/\/\

by dangerous_mouse Mon 14 Nov 2011, 10:57 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:I didn't score it, and haven't watched it again fully, but I felt that Marquez would get at least a 115-113, just going on how I felt the judges would have seen it-that is, being lenient to Pacquiao. I wonder if this questionable decision will come back in a few years time to do what D4 has only dreamt of doing, and bite Pacquiao on the bum...

i read this 15 minutes ago and i can not take a sip of my drink without laughing

brilliant baltimora clap

by vxrandall Mon 14 Nov 2011, 11:36 pm

here is another khan classic
at the start of the 8th round
"and these are the championship rounds now - the last 4 rounds of the fight are where you have to dig deep now"....

yeah...the 8th round is actually 5 from the end amir...and anyway...the championship rounds are usually 11 and 12....donut!

by fearlessBamber Mon 14 Nov 2011, 11:55 pm

I had it 9 rounds to 3 for Marquez. If someone had it 120-108 for Marquez, I'd accept it.

We don't need Manny to fight FMJ now - although it'd be fun to see an imprint of Pacq's face on Mayweather's right glove.

"I clearly won the fight" - what a tool.

by John Bloody Wayne Tue 15 Nov 2011, 2:52 am

How is a fighter saying he won a fight being a tool? He'd be a tool to say anything different.

by School Project Tue 15 Nov 2011, 4:10 am

fearlessBamber wrote:I had it 9 rounds to 3 for Marquez. If someone had it 112-108 for Marquez, I'd accept it.

We don't need Manny to fight FMJ now - although it'd be fun to see an imprint of Pacq's face on Mayweather's right glove.

"I clearly won the fight" - what a tool.

Do you mean 120 - 108? I'm not so sure myself, but it wasn't that wide.

by fearlessBamber Tue 15 Nov 2011, 9:12 am

School Project wrote:
fearlessBamber wrote:I had it 9 rounds to 3 for Marquez. If someone had it 112-108 for Marquez, I'd accept it.

We don't need Manny to fight FMJ now - although it'd be fun to see an imprint of Pacq's face on Mayweather's right glove.

"I clearly won the fight" - what a tool.

Do you mean 120 - 108? I'm not so sure myself, but it wasn't that wide.

Yes thanks have edited. Manny looked off balance and clueless throughout. Found it hard to give Manny the rounds I did.

by fearlessBamber Tue 15 Nov 2011, 9:16 am

John Bloody Wayne wrote:How is a fighter saying he won a fight being a tool? He'd be a tool to say anything different.

Even when he gives it the nice guy routine and actually clearly lost the fight ?

Politics will suit him just fine. His friendship with Arum has been perfect preparation.

by Scottrf Tue 15 Nov 2011, 9:51 am

Spoiler:

by Sugar Boy Sweetie Tue 15 Nov 2011, 9:54 am

Scottrf wrote:
Spoiler:

Very good. Pacquiao looks like Mr Miyagi, and Juan looks like he's been burned in some horrific accident!

by The Galveston Giant Tue 15 Nov 2011, 10:03 am

fearlessBamber wrote:
John Bloody Wayne wrote:How is a fighter saying he won a fight being a tool? He'd be a tool to say anything different.

Even when he gives it the nice guy routine and actually clearly lost the fight ?

Politics will suit him just fine. His friendship with Arum has been perfect preparation.

At the end of the day it's not Pacquiao's fault, so why show hate towards the boxer for the decision. He seems a nice enough guy to me. Most boxers would have said the same, you don't actually think Pacquiao thought he had won do you.

by Sponsored content

Who won the fight?