Gatland caught up in controversy

Wales coach Warren Gatland caught up in controversy over James Hook and Lee Byrne’s switch to France

Warren Gatland was today at the centre of controversy following the discovery of an astonishing interview in which he is quoted as saying he encouraged James Hook and Lee Byrne to quit Welsh rugby for France.

The article, which has just come to light, was written by Marc Duzan and published in the hugely respected twice-weekly French rugby newspaper Midi Olympique

In it Wales coach Gatland was asked whether he was against the exile of two of his best players.

He allegedly replied: “No, I have even encouraged them to leave.

“James and Lee have played all their career in Wales. They need to see something different. They will gain experience, learn different game systems.

“The Top 14 is the best thing that could happen to them. I also remember that Stephen Jones came back from France transformed.

“The Top 14 is an excellent league, probably the best in the world LINK TO ARTICLE <-----
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder if there is any truth in this and if there is does it send out the wrong signals. I know that some people have misquoted Gatland's rule on playing outside Wales he never said a player will not get selected if they play outside Wales what he said was that Welsh based players of similar ability will get selected over a player playing abroad and that makes perfect sense.
So my question is do we want our head coach to encourage players to play outside Wales and face the problems of player release or does the experience these players will gain outweigh the cons.
He probably thinks he will get less problems with player release with them playing abroad than he does with the regions

i dont think there is anything wrong with what he has said, its true players such as alfie, SJ, wilkinson etc game awarness/skill has vastly improved while playing in france, and it is probably the best league in the world...
and lets be honest the ospreys although did bring on these players they are all starting to look to comfortable so hopefully their time in france will imrpove their skills like it has done to countless others

Can we get this right once and for all.

Gatland NEVER said he wouldn't pick players outside Wales.

He said it would make their selection harder due to not having full control over them like he would have with the Regions.

He also said that if they do move then they really need to be first choice at whatever club they decide one.

Hook abd Byrne IMO will both benefit from playing in France and will both be first choice.

Peel had loads of trouble with getting released and at certain times wasnt first choice hence why he wasnt included a lot.

Great news, nothing controversial in that at all. It's what everyone else in Wales, apparently including the Ospreys management think as well.


No surprises this appaullingly sensationally titled article was written by tabloid moron/journalist Andy Howell and published by the western mail.

Here is a little extract from the article...

"In it Wales coach Gatland was asked whether he was against the exile of two of his best players.

He allegedly replied: “No, I have even encouraged them to leave." (A. Howell western mail Sunday 19th June 2011).

There is so little research that the journalist, (in the loosest form of the term) has not even bothered to find someone who can translate the article from French and has to allege his quotes. Or are they just fictional???

How can Gatland allegedly reply a quote ?

read for yourself... THough there is little there...


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/06/19/wales-coach-warren-gatland-caught-up-in-controversy-over-james-hook-and-lee-byrne-s-switch-to-france-91466-28901516/

For the real article in midi olympique read...!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/58163918/Interview-W-gatland-Art-Midol-L-20101227

bedfordwelsh wrote:Can we get this right once and for all.

Gatland NEVER said he wouldn't pick players outside Wales.

He said it would make their selection harder due to not having full control over them like he would have with the Regions.

He also said that if they do move then they really need to be first choice at whatever club they decide one.

Hook abd Byrne IMO will both benefit from playing in France and will both be first choice.

Peel had loads of trouble with getting released and at certain times wasnt first choice hence why he wasnt included a lot.

I think the most important point that might actually be controversial but wasn't said, is that Gatland would most likely prefer to have his players who wish to go abroad playing in the top 14 rather than the Aviva premiership. It is a better quality league, more competitive, more fans than the English Premiership and Premier Rugby Ltd have caused Gatland a series of irrational situations where they refuse a player to be released even when the players English club are happy to release them.

Sounds like more stirring of the pot of drive a wedge between the Ospreys and Wales to me.

Andy "bloody" Howell...!

Has Andy Howell not based his article on what was written in the French paper ?
Does we have any French speakers on site who could translate the document or just at least verify that Gatland allegedly said these things.

Andy Howell vary rarely bases his stories on anything.

Is Gatland being 2 faced here?

He is happy for James Hook, and Lee Byne, to go and play in France, and yet he tells every body else if they dont play in Wales they wont get picked for Wales.

Hmmmmmm seems like some players can do what they want and still get picked for Wales.

Oh wait, Gavin Henson right.

HE'S NEVER SAID THEY WON'T GET PICKED

majesticimperialman wrote:Is Gatland being 2 faced here?

He is happy for James Hook, and Lee Byne, to go and play in France, and yet he tells every body else if they dont play in Wales they wont get picked for Wales.

Hmmmmmm seems like some players can do what they want and still get picked for Wales.

Oh wait, Gavin Henson right.

Do yourself a favour Madge. What Gatland actually said is written for you above, so there's no excuse for your confusion. I never thought I'd see the day when there was somebody daft enough to be taken in by Andy Bowell.

Reverend. Could it be that the journalist in question is a "pain in the ass?"

Cymroglan wrote:Has Andy Howell not based his article on what was written in the French paper ?
Does we have any French speakers on site who could translate the document or just at least verify that Gatland allegedly said these things.

My French is not fluent but I can understand enough that the quote is actually pretty accurate. Gatland does indeed say that he encouraged the specific moves of Hook and Byrne to their new French clubs. Citing the way that the top 14 has rejuvenated players like Jonny wilkinson and steven jones.


The article is a question and answer article. It is quite interesting. They are mainly enquiring on Gatlands thoughts about the all blacks, the title "Les Blacks ne Sont pas invincible" "the blacks are not invincible" relates to the crux question of the article.

The part relating to hook and Byrne is towards the end.

There is no date on the attached link to the Midi-Olympique article, and no trace on google of the article from what I can find. So I don't know when and where Howell dragged up this article that is the crux of Howell's controversy...?

majesticimperialman wrote:Is Gatland being 2 faced here?

He is happy for James Hook, and Lee Byne, to go and play in France, and yet he tells every body else if they dont play in Wales they wont get picked for Wales.

Hmmmmmm seems like some players can do what they want and still get picked for Wales.

Oh wait, Gavin Henson right.

Madge are you actually the esteemed prat of CONTRAVERSAL poor journalism himself Andy Howell???

You seem to lack the same amount of knowledge and respect of rugby, while instigating your theoretical controversial slants on vague fact or occasionally popular opinion.

How and why do you, in an incredibly Howell-esq, manner mention Gavin Henson? You are bizarre!

Sorry but Gatland has never said players won't get picked if they go abroad! He can't, as the players could challenge him in an EU court.

I thought I had made it clear on the article what Gatlands views were on players playing outside the Welsh regions well I understood it anyway



maestegmafia thanks for the confirmation on the French article.

No problem mate.

Actually a good article to read. If I could find a link to the original online you could google translate it or something for everyone...

I don't have the energy to re-type it in English.

The reason i mentioned Gavin Henson is that most pf the players that will be in the Welsh team/squad for the Rugby World Cup will atleast have a team/region that they are playing for.

As far as i know Gavin Henson does not have a team, as not played any rugby in the last 18 months 2 years, and yet he is still be given a chance to play in the Rugby World Cup...No other player/s would be allowed to just walk in to the Welsh side like he as been able too.

majesticimperialman wrote:The reason i mentioned Gavin Henson is that most pf the players that will be in the Welsh team/squad for the Rugby World Cup will atleast have a team/region that they are playing for.

He is not the first, Jason Robinson was in the same situation previously as are many others going to the world cup.

majesticimperialman wrote:As far as i know Gavin Henson does not have a team, as not played any rugby in the last 18 months 2 years, and yet he is still be given a chance to play in the Rugby World Cup...No other player/s would be allowed to just walk in to the Welsh side like he as been able too.

Henson played in several games for Saracens and Toulon, plus earned a cap against the Baa Baa's obviously the coaches have seen enough to think he is an asset.

You still refrained from explaining what on earth that has to do with the OP! Just repeated a theme that you regularly re-hash.

We know you are confused about Gavin Henson, you don't have to keep reminding us by acknowledging a hint to your confusion in posts that are unrelated to Henson and your inability to understand why he is in the Welsh squad.

maestegmafie - There is a difference between Henson and Jason Robinson. Jason Robinson was a world class player devoted to the game, Henson is an unfit player that has never been world class and who is NOT devoted to the game. Its a silly compaarison you have made.

wrfc1980 wrote:maestegmafie - There is a difference between Henson and Jason Robinson. Jason Robinson was a world class player devoted to the game, Henson is an unfit player that has never been world class and who is NOT devoted to the game. Its a silly compaarison you have made.

I wouldn't get to caught up on Henson. All the Welsh world cup squad have a training camp on July the 2nd. ANYONE not meeting the fitness standards that's been set from the coaching team will be ejected including Henson. If he goes it will be because he's met those standards, if he doesn't he hasn't worked hard enough.

I did not compare Henson to Jason Robinson. No one did...!

Stick to the thread...!

Cymroglan wrote:Wales coach Warren Gatland caught up in controversy over James Hook and Lee Byrne’s switch to France

Warren Gatland was today at the centre of controversy following the discovery of an astonishing interview in which he is quoted as saying he encouraged James Hook and Lee Byrne to quit Welsh rugby for France.

The article, which has just come to light, was written by Marc Duzan and published in the hugely respected twice-weekly French rugby newspaper Midi Olympique

In it Wales coach Gatland was asked whether he was against the exile of two of his best players.

He allegedly replied: “No, I have even encouraged them to leave.

“James and Lee have played all their career in Wales. They need to see something different. They will gain experience, learn different game systems.

“The Top 14 is the best thing that could happen to them. I also remember that Stephen Jones came back from France transformed.

“The Top 14 is an excellent league, probably the best in the world LINK TO ARTICLE <-----
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder if there is any truth in this and if there is does it send out the wrong signals. I know that some people have misquoted Gatland's rule on playing outside Wales he never said a player will not get selected if they play outside Wales what he said was that Welsh based players of similar ability will get selected over a player playing abroad and that makes perfect sense.
So my question is do we want our head coach to encourage players to play outside Wales and face the problems of player release or does the experience these players will gain outweigh the cons.
He probably thinks he will get less problems with player release with them playing abroad than he does with the regions

Why are people getting caught up on what country our players play in?
Bryne is playing poorly, Phillips is playing poorly, and we don't necessarily need Hook because we have other options and centre and fly half.
Wales will be fine without them.

AlynDavies wrote:Why are people getting caught up on what country our players play in?
Bryne is playing poorly, Phillips is playing poorly, and we don't necessarily need Hook because we have other options and centre and fly half.
Wales will be fine without them.

Possibly..!

Though if, as with Gareth Thomas and Steven Jones who took sabbaticals in France at a similar age, they improved as players and became very valuable to Wales. In which case I am sure they will be included.

The only player who has not benefited, who has regressed if anything is Dwayne Peel who left Scarlets for Sale, not only that but the Premier Rugby organisation that controls English club rugby have proved to be very obstinate in Peel's and Wales's international ambitions.

maestegmafia wrote:Possibly..!

Though if, as with Gareth Thomas and Steven Jones who took sabbaticals in France at a similar age, they improved as players and became very valuable to Wales. In which case I am sure they will be included.

The only player who has not benefited, who has regressed if anything is Dwayne Peel who left Scarlets for Sale, not only that but the Premier Rugby organisation that controls English club rugby have proved to be very obstinate in Peel's and Wales's international ambitions.

I cant really think of any player who has gone to England and progressed in a manner which is good for Wales. Most of them have gone backwards of disappeared off our radar all together. Delve is the only one who made a name for himself I can think of but he has never turned it on for Wales when given the oppertunity.

AlynDavies wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Possibly..!

Though if, as with Gareth Thomas and Steven Jones who took sabbaticals in France at a similar age, they improved as players and became very valuable to Wales. In which case I am sure they will be included.

The only player who has not benefited, who has regressed if anything is Dwayne Peel who left Scarlets for Sale, not only that but the Premier Rugby organisation that controls English club rugby have proved to be very obstinate in Peel's and Wales's international ambitions.

I cant really think of any player who has gone to England and progressed in a manner which is good for Wales. Most of them have gone backwards of disappeared off our radar all together. Delve is the only one who made a name for himself I can think of but he has never turned it on for Wales when given the oppertunity.

Delve appears to be benefitting from playing Super 15 rugby far more than in the premiership. It will be interesting to see how he fares in a welsh shirt.

The difference between Delve and Peel, (who I believe Gatland would have preferred both not playing in, what he sees as a weak, substandard, English Premiership,) is that Delve, who grew up in Bristol has never played for a Welsh club or region or even a Welsh School boy team.

maestegmafia wrote:The difference between Delve and Peel, (who I believe Gatland would have preferred both not playing in, what he sees as a weak, substandard, English Premiership,) is that Delve, who grew up in Bristol has never played for a Welsh club or region or even a Welsh School boy team.

No it's the Delve who was born in Cardiff and went to school in Rumney High School, then went to college in Bristol before turning professional with Bath in 2001 ish.
I'm assuming he played rugby prior to him going to college in Bristol.

My point stands.

You are being pedantic...!

maestegmafia wrote:My point stands.

You are being pedantic...!

That wasn't the intention though having read my post again it does sound sarcastic, sorry.
I thought you were trying to make the point that he isn't developed from Wales, when it would appear it was only his late teenage years that were spent outside Wales.
You used the words "Delve, who grew up in Bristol", hence the misunderstanding.
Making my earlier point about young lads going from Wales to English scholarships, then to English academies and not really reaching their potential from a Wales national team perspective.

AlynDavies wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:My point stands.

You are being pedantic...!

That wasn't the intention though having read my post again it does sound sarcastic, sorry.

Apology accepted...

AlynDavies wrote:
I thought you were trying to make the point that he isn't developed from Wales, when it would appear it was only his late teenage years that were spent outside Wales.

No, I made that point that Delve played well in England and was selected for Wales whilst playing for an English club, he has never played senior rugby in Wales, apart from for the National team. Dwayne Peel played in Wales then moved to England.

AlynDavies wrote:Making my earlier point about young lads going from Wales to English scholarships, then to English academies and not really reaching their potential from a Wales national team perspective.

I agree. The obvious thing is to keep them under a Welsh governed/organised contract wherever they should wander to play. We have a system in Wales geared towards International performance, not towards producing affluent Club Rugby. Right or wrong that is how it stands.

maestegmafia wrote:I agree. The obvious thing is to keep them under a Welsh governed/organised contract wherever they should wander to play. We have a system in Wales geared towards International performance, not towards producing affluent Club Rugby. Right or wrong that is how it stands.

I understand the theory but it's clear the WRU simply doesn't have the funds to compete with French clubs with regards to commerical realities on players wages.
The individual player can only play for so long and needs to maximise his earnings to give himself a comfortable retirement in his mid 30's.
We rely heavily on benefactors like Peter Thomas and Cuddy to plow their money from their businesses to make up the shortfall. Though each season it seems that wages are rising at such an extent that even the benefactors are starting to wobble about the amounts their investing. Wales best paid regional players are on £180-250k a season max. Where as were hearing numbers like £500k a season coming from Japan and France!
The Scarlets decided they couldn't compete and released a lot of players, then built a team of young players from their academy.
The Blues are broke and making cut backs, and appear to be totally broke.
The Ospreys have let a lot of players leave, and there seems to be little prospect of them bringing in any high profile players to replace them.

AlynDavies wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I agree. The obvious thing is to keep them under a Welsh governed/organised contract wherever they should wander to play. We have a system in Wales geared towards International performance, not towards producing affluent Club Rugby. Right or wrong that is how it stands.

I understand the theory but it's clear the WRU simply doesn't have the funds to compete with French clubs with regards to commerical realities on players wages.
The individual player can only play for so long and needs to maximise his earnings to give himself a comfortable retirement in his mid 30's.
We rely heavily on benefactors like Peter Thomas and Cuddy to plow their money from their businesses to make up the shortfall. Though each season it seems that wages are rising at such an extent that even the benefactors are starting to wobble about the amounts their investing. Wales best paid regional players are on £180-250k a season max. Where as were hearing numbers like £500k a season coming from Japan and France!
The Scarlets decided they couldn't compete and released a lot of players, then built a team of young players from their academy.
The Blues are broke and making cut backs, and appear to be totally broke.
The Ospreys have let a lot of players leave, and there seems to be little prospect of them bringing in any high profile players to replace them.

What is your point?

maestegmafia wrote:What is your point?

"The obvious thing is to keep them under a Welsh governed/organised contract wherever they should wander to play."

1) The WRU doesnt have the funds to compete with French, English, and Japanease clubs so contracting them centrally is out of the question.

2) These players are already under contract to someone. In Delves case Melbourne Rebels and you cant offer someone a contract that already has a contract.

AlynDavies wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:What is your point?

"The obvious thing is to keep them under a Welsh governed/organised contract wherever they should wander to play."

1) The WRU doesnt have the funds to compete with French, English, and Japanease clubs so contracting them centrally is out of the question.

I would presume central contracting will never happen at senior level though could be effective below regional level to help administer academy players and who they play for, maybe that would appease clubs like Neath who feel hard done by by their governing region.

It may also make good use of organising exchange programs for youth/academy players with clubs in other countries that would benefit the learning of young welsh talent.

AlynDavies wrote:2) These players are already under contract to someone. In Delves case Melbourne Rebels and you cant offer someone a contract that already has a contract.

Not really sure what you mean there or what that has to do with the above post of mine that you quoted?