Been Caught Cheating?

Interesting titbit on the Premiership salary cap from today's Breakdown e-mail from the guardian:

It is understood that three clubs have this year found to be in breach of the salary cap regulations. The fact they have not been named means they have been fined: a points' deduction would have to be formally announced for obvious reasons.

Who could that be then?

Quins, Sarries, and London Irish... Possibly.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Quins

ahhhh thanks for that one. Needed a laugh this morning.

Sarries and Bath are likely due to the noises they make about the cap. Gloucester possibly due to the payments over Morgan.

Why not quins Alastair? They have recently resigned a few very big names havn't they, and Evans has just been resigned hasn't he.

What are the rules broken anyway does anyone know? Surely noones dull enough to just go over the cap???

Obviously London Welsh, Dax and Fake Bake are expensive. :/

Sarries and Tigers I would think?

Glaws, Bath or Quins maybe but the above 2 seem to have ridiculous strength in depth.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Why not quins Alastair? They have recently resigned a few very big names havn't they, and Evans has just been resigned hasn't he.

What are the rules broken anyway does anyone know? Surely noones dull enough to just go over the cap???

No. Re-signed Evans (the marque signing), one player in from Cornish Pirates, and one from Perpignon. A few up from the academy.

The Blues sugar daddy Peter Jones is more likley to have broken the rules than Quins tbh Bluesman. Contrary to popular belief, and old pre-professional image of a bunch of stock brokers flouncing around a field after a day at the stock market, Quins really isn't a rich club at all.

I'd be surprised if it was Quins, i'd certainly break out the condiments for some well deserved hat eating if it is!

Does it say when this adtes to though? Id assume it goes back a couple of seasons to when allegations were made then investigated against "unamed clubs" ( including Saracens and Bath) ...which would also explain why there was fines rather than a points deduction.

Its highly unlikley to be from incidents this season as it would take a hell of a long time to investigate.

Unlikely to be irish as they were against the cap being raised and whinging about not being able to spend up to it.


Bluesman no it wouldnt be something as blantant as just paying Sam Vesty 4.5 million and hoping nooone noticed. Bath were arranging for players to make paid public appearences, Saracens making payments through South Africa.
It was those kind of things that were being investigated, so Id assume these charges relate to decisions being made on what was and what wasnt a breach.
Theres always been a lot of grey areas, but its bette rthan the days when Tigers used to buy houses and employ the family members in ridiculous non jobs to get round it (that was back when it was 2.5p or whatever) As far as I am aware they play within the rules/spirit of the rules on the cap now, having avoided signing big wage players and regulalry losing players they wanted to keep to bigger offers from within the Jeff despite being the wealthiest club in England.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Why not quins Alastair? They have recently resigned a few very big names havn't they, and Evans has just been resigned hasn't he.

What are the rules broken anyway does anyone know? Surely noones dull enough to just go over the cap???

that's how it sounds in the full article. The punishment is £3 fine for every £1 over the cap, or docking league points for serious offences apparently.


Full quote about the regulations:

The £4m figure was reached in 2008 and the base salary cap this season stands at £4.26m with an academy credit scheme, that allows clubs to get £30,000 for each of the home-grown young players in their squads, up to a maximum of eight, taking it to potentially £4.5m.

Clubs may exclude one player from the cap, the so-called marquee signing, but there are conditions attached: he must have been on the payroll of the club concerned for at least two years, or he must not have been at another Premiership club during the previous salary cap year or he must have played at the 2011 World Cup.

The name of the excluded player must be kept confidential and monitoring all new signings is among the remit of Premiership Rugby's salary cap and regulations manager, Andrew Rogers. Everything received by a player, whether it be money, a car, image rights or help with the mortgage is included in the cap: all that is omitted is income received from playing Test rugby and an allowance for education courses up to £5,000

Sale, bet Cips/Gray aren't cheap.

Alaistar

Have I just made up some other resignings have I, I thought Evans was of a number of big name players who just resigned, but you seem to know more than me so I'll take your word.

PS It's Peter Thomas, and he's too cheap to pay players when on int, or to pay decent players hence why we're signing squadmen from people and non disclosed romanians.

I'll wade in on the Peter Thomas 'cheap' theme from bluesman, he's right. I remember when we won the amlin, players were straight on the plane home.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Alaistar

Have I just made up some other resignings have I, I thought Evans was of a number of big name players who just resigned, but you seem to know more than me so I'll take your word.

PS It's Peter Thomas, and he's too cheap to pay players when on int, or to pay decent players hence why we're signing squadmen from people and non disclosed romanians.

Blues, yes, Evans has re-signed. But (subject to the confidentiality clause above) it's almost certain that he's the marquee player and therefore does not count towards the cap. Plus, his new contract doesn't come into force until next year.

It could be Quins, but what little evidence there is makes it seem unlikely unless they have been systematically breaching the cap for some time (in which case, looking at comparative squads, it would be very surprising if there are not a lot of other offenders). Most of Quins' players have come from their academy, lower leagues, or the lower reaches of other clubs' squads or injury lists. The non-academy signings over the summer were Dave Ward from Cornish Pirates and Ben Botica from a French Division 2 side. Not exactly bank-breakers. Quins have also in the past shown a willingness to let good players go. Dave Strettle left, in part, because Quins had 5 senior players whose contracts were up for renewal that year (including Robshaw and Monye, and I think the other two were Robson and Brown); Quins offered them each a contract but with the proviso that they could only afford 4 contracts. The last unsigned contract would be withdrawn. Over the last two years they've cut the total squad size by 3-4 players.

I fervently hope that those are an indication of a team that manages its playing budget within the rules.

I wonder if Tom Heathcote is still considered to be one of Bath's home-grown academicians now that he's Scottish?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Alaistar

Have I just made up some other resignings have I, I thought Evans was of a number of big name players who just resigned, but you seem to know more than me so I'll take your word.

PS It's Peter Thomas, and he's too cheap to pay players when on int, or to pay decent players hence why we're signing squadmen from people and non disclosed romanians.

Oh no, you're right, we did have re-signings of other team members (Hopper, Easter, Care, Buchanan, K Dickson, Wallace, Lambo and Guest i think - probabley more that i've missed), but none with the eye-watering bill attached to them that NEv's stock would attract.

I stand corrected on The Blues /doffs cap

mawhis wrote:Full quote about the regulations:

The £4m figure was reached in 2008 and the base salary cap this season stands at £4.26m with an academy credit scheme, that allows clubs to get £30,000 for each of the home-grown young players in their squads, up to a maximum of eight, taking it to potentially £4.5m.

Clubs may exclude one player from the cap, the so-called marquee signing, but there are conditions attached: he must have been on the payroll of the club concerned for at least two years, or he must not have been at another Premiership club during the previous salary cap year or he must have played at the 2011 World Cup.
The name of the excluded player must be kept confidential and monitoring all new signings is among the remit of Premiership Rugby's salary cap and regulations manager, Andrew Rogers. Everything received by a player, whether it be money, a car, image rights or help with the mortgage is included in the cap: all that is omitted is income received from playing Test rugby and an allowance for education courses up to £5,000

What are the odds it is just something that has been overlooked like a player who moved clubs this season, or who was not at the RWC being named the Marquee Player? After all the clubs are not stupid, and the odds of it being anything straight forward, like just over stepping the cap (or paying for a players house etc) is pretty unlikely.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

mawhis wrote:Full quote about the regulations:

The £4m figure was reached in 2008 and the base salary cap this season stands at £4.26m with an academy credit scheme, that allows clubs to get £30,000 for each of the home-grown young players in their squads, up to a maximum of eight, taking it to potentially £4.5m.

Clubs may exclude one player from the cap, the so-called marquee signing, but there are conditions attached: he must have been on the payroll of the club concerned for at least two years, or he must not have been at another Premiership club during the previous salary cap year or he must have played at the 2011 World Cup.
The name of the excluded player must be kept confidential and monitoring all new signings is among the remit of Premiership Rugby's salary cap and regulations manager, Andrew Rogers. Everything received by a player, whether it be money, a car, image rights or help with the mortgage is included in the cap: all that is omitted is income received from playing Test rugby and an allowance for education courses up to £5,000

What are the odds it is just something that has been overlooked like a player who moved clubs this season, or who was not at the RWC being named the Marquee Player? After all the clubs are not stupid, and the odds of it being anything straight forward, like just over stepping the cap (or paying for a players house etc) is pretty unlikely.

There have been rumours about some clubs for years. Saracens supposedly pay their South African stars via back channels in South Africa. Leicester apparently have arrangements with their sponsors to employ players wives/family members etc. Its not out of the question that its deliberate, rather than an oversight.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:I wonder if Tom Heathcote is still considered to be one of Bath's home-grown academicians now that he's Scottish?

I don't think he is now that he 'isn't English'. He certainly doesnt count as EQ so won't help in their no. of EQ players quota, the black and white statistics say that Bath have 2 foreign fly halves!

Poorfour wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Alaistar

Have I just made up some other resignings have I, I thought Evans was of a number of big name players who just resigned, but you seem to know more than me so I'll take your word.

PS It's Peter Thomas, and he's too cheap to pay players when on int, or to pay decent players hence why we're signing squadmen from people and non disclosed romanians.

Blues, yes, Evans has re-signed. But (subject to the confidentiality clause above) it's almost certain that he's the marquee player and therefore does not count towards the cap. Plus, his new contract doesn't come into force until next year.

More importantly, his new contract is bound to be less money than his previous one. He's over 30 and has publicly said that he wants to play fewer games from next year.

And it involves being trained as a coach which I presume means less money in the contract