Ireland Tour of New Zealand 2022

First topic message reminder :

In addition to three tests, Ireland are playing 2 non-test matches against NZ Māori.  Farrell plans to take an expanded squad as a result that will allow him see a few other non-regulars perform. The newer ones may only be required for the 2 NZ Māori matches

Assuming current injuries allow some players to travel, the touring squad will likely include most of the 6N picks plus some more - up to say 42 players.  
Ireland will likely win two of the matches and things will likely go to the third test to decide matters.

Forwards 22
7 Props - Furlong, Porter, Bealham, O’Toole, Loughman?
3 Hookers - Sheehan, Herring, Heffernan?
6 Locks - Ryan, Henderson, Beirne, Baird, Treadwell, J McCarthy?
6 B/rows - VdF, Conan, Coombes, Doris, O’Mahony, Timoney? Prendergast?
Backs 20
4 SH Gibson-Park, Murray, Casey
4 10s Sexton, Carbery, H Byrne?
5 Centres Aki, Henshaw, Ringrose, Hume? Frawley?
7 Back-threes - Keenan, Lowe, Hansen, Lowry? J O’Brien?

A decent win against a fine looking Maori team. Felt like Ireland played the conditions better than the Maori.

I'm very happy that these two mid-week games were organised, it gives the fans something mid-week. It turns the tackle-bag-holders into actual players getting experience. It builds the depth. I think there are very few of the side that started this mid week game that I'd have an issue with seeing them involved in a matchday 22. A bit more gate revenue in post-covid times too.

It will be interesting to see how Farrell builds his squad experience from here up to the RWC.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:A decent win against a fine looking Maori team. Felt like Ireland played the conditions better than the Maori.

I'm very happy that these two mid-week games were organised, it gives the fans something mid-week. It turns the tackle-bag-holders into actual players getting experience. It builds the depth.  I think there are very few of the side that started this mid week game that I'd have an issue with seeing them involved in a matchday 22. A bit more gate revenue in post-covid times too.

It will be interesting to see how Farrell builds his squad experience from here up to the RWC.

Yeah when it was first announced I first thought about the 60-0 loss in the last tour and thought it would be all too much for the squad.

However, it turns out it was a very clever move as it sort of replicates a world cup group and knock out scenario. The first 4 matches being group games with a mix of squad rotation and the last game the quarter KO game. Basically, Farrell wanted to test a big squad and give them invaluable experience in a tour environment. Very successful tour so far.

Also thought McCloskey was very good. He is quite possible the best Ireland player ever to only get six caps. So unlucky that his career coincided with a era of significant depth at centre.

Collapse2005 wrote:Also thought McCloskey was very good. He is quite possible the best Ireland player ever to only get six caps. So unlucky that his career coincided with a era of significant depth at centre.

I really thought for this fixture 9-10-12 played so well. Casey & Frawley as a combo and Frawley & McCloskey as a combo. McCloskey's fizzed pass to Larmour for that late try was a particular highlight.

Andy Farrell is likely to top the list of potential Lions head coaches given how he has managed this tour. He has turned out to be a much better head coach than I thought.

Collapse2005 wrote:Also thought McCloskey was very good. He is quite possible the best Ireland player ever to only get six caps. So unlucky that his career coincided with a era of significant depth at centre.

Rather odd that him and Cooney are continually overlooked.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Also thought McCloskey was very good. He is quite possible the best Ireland player ever to only get six caps. So unlucky that his career coincided with a era of significant depth at centre.

Rather odd that him and Cooney are continually overlooked.

Cooney's form's not been great at the latter end of the season, perhaps partly due to his constant rejection from the Irish camp or more accurately, Sexton's 'player power' over selection issues.
McCloskey however has been consistently brilliant all season, in fact he just got better as the season went on and alongside Hume creates a very powerful centre unit. Both he and Hume should be selected as a unit but sadly, McCloskey only got his chance because of Hume's injury.

It's the age old story of it being harder to lose your place on the Irish 1st XV than it is to win a place on it, it's even harder to win a place if you play for Ulster.

Cooney not there because he is blacked balled by another play
MCloskey doesn't play for Leinster and isn't a foreign import

The first point I have been told, within Ulster, by senior individuals
The second may sound cynical but there is more than a grain of truth in it - just ask Darren Cave

Id say you are right about Cooney however not so sure about McCloskey. Centre has been an area of great depth over the last 10 years. Chris Farrell and Aki arent from Leinster and have been ahead of McCloskey and the Leinster guys Henshaw and Ringrose are just better players.

Collapse2005 wrote:Id say you are right about Cooney however not so sure about McCloskey. Centre has been an area of great depth over the last 10 years. Chris Farrell and Aki arent from Leinster and have been ahead of McCloskey and the Leinster guys Henshaw and Ringrose are just better players.

The selectors must have remembered Farrell's Ulster roots, he's been forgotten
Aki may not be from Leinster but he's not from Ulster.

I'd have McCloskey over Henshaw or Ringrose every day of the week. It's a point of contention no doubt but for me he has everything the others have and then some. He and Hume should, as is the way with the best centre pairings, come as a package to work best but Ireland's loss is Ulster's gain.

Farrell was behind McCloskey at Ulster and anyway only got a few games for Ireland.
As Pete says he has since been forgotten.
Henshaw is the best 12 in Ireland but after that McCloskey has been the leading Irish 12 who should have played a number of times when Henshaw was injured.

I also included foreign imports.
It is my belief that once they get caps there is a tendency to give them preferential treatment to justify their original inclusion - I put Aki in that category.
Same goes with Central Contract players who often get picked in front of better players to justify the Central Contract

Has Gavin Coombes been given much of a chance with the first team? I know Ireland have good depth at 8, but with the form he was in you can’t ignore him.

Personally I like to see McCloskey play 12 with Henshaw at 13. That's just me though.

Collapse2005 wrote:Also thought McCloskey was very good. He is quite possible the best Ireland player ever to only get six caps. So unlucky that his career coincided with a era of significant depth at centre.

I was going to suggest John Muldoon as an alternate choice but, as he only ever got half that number of caps, doesn't meet the criteria.

I'm nervously looking forward to this 3rd test tomorrow. My heart says Ireland need to be ahead by more than 7 points going into the last 5 minutes to survive (so Ireland by 8) but NZ won the first test by 13 points only playing well really in that second quarter of the match, I'd fear with their backs against the wall if they put in 3 quarters of that display then we'd be licking our wounds on a 39 point margin of defeat. Both outcomes feel equally possible which is what makes sport so great.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I'm nervously looking forward to this 3rd test tomorrow. My heart says Ireland need to be ahead by more than 7 points going into the last 5 minutes to survive (so Ireland by 8) but NZ won the first test by 13 points only playing well really in that second quarter of the match, I'd fear with their backs against the wall if they put in 3 quarters of that display then we'd be licking our wounds on a 39 point margin of defeat. Both outcomes feel equally possible which is what makes sport so great.

Anything can happen in Rugby....and it usually does!!

Pete330v2 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Id say you are right about Cooney however not so sure about McCloskey. Centre has been an area of great depth over the last 10 years. Chris Farrell and Aki arent from Leinster and have been ahead of McCloskey and the Leinster guys Henshaw and Ringrose are just better players.

The selectors must have remembered Farrell's Ulster roots, he's been forgotten
Aki may not be from Leinster but he's not from Ulster.

I'd have McCloskey over Henshaw or Ringrose every day of the week. It's a point of contention no doubt but for me he has everything the others have and then some. He and Hume should, as is the way with the best centre pairings, come as a package to work best but Ireland's loss is Ulster's gain.

Henshaw is generally considered one of the best 12s in world rugby, so it really is just your opinion. Ireland are 2nd in the world and have now beaten the ABs twice in one rugby season. Are you seriously suggesting that the coaches are wilfully handicapping the team by picking players based on some biases that can be easily proven to not exist?

geoff999rugby wrote:Cooney not there because he is blacked balled by another play
MCloskey doesn't play for Leinster and isn't a foreign import

The first point I have been told, within Ulster, by senior individuals
The second may sound cynical but there is more than a grain of truth in it - just ask Darren Cave  

Why would we ask Darren Cave?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Id say you are right about Cooney however not so sure about McCloskey. Centre has been an area of great depth over the last 10 years. Chris Farrell and Aki arent from Leinster and have been ahead of McCloskey and the Leinster guys Henshaw and Ringrose are just better players.

The selectors must have remembered Farrell's Ulster roots, he's been forgotten
Aki may not be from Leinster but he's not from Ulster.

I'd have McCloskey over Henshaw or Ringrose every day of the week. It's a point of contention no doubt but for me he has everything the others have and then some. He and Hume should, as is the way with the best centre pairings, come as a package to work best but Ireland's loss is Ulster's gain.

Henshaw is generally considered one of the best 12s in world rugby, so it really is just your opinion. Ireland are 2nd in the world and have now beaten the ABs twice in one rugby season. Are you seriously suggesting that the coaches are wilfully handicapping the team by picking players based on some biases that can be easily proven to not exist?

I don't want to get into an inter-provincial slanging match, and it is all opinion, but I do think McCloskey deserves/deserved more chances than he has had. I agree Henshaw is one of the best centres in the world, but also think a McCloskey 12/Henshaw 13 partnership could be even better than Aki/Henshaw or Henshaw/Ringrose. Unfortunately we never seem to get the opportunities to try these things out, and again my personal opinion is that there is still a reluctance within the Irish coaching and admin group (I don't think it is just down to individuals) try out new combinations as it is always the most important thing to win the next game.

Cave was unfortunate to be playing in the D'arcy/BOD era but I couldn't see why McFadden got so many more caps than he did.

There simply is bias against certain players as well as favouritism shown to some undeserving players.

Nobody said that Henshaw isn't regarded as one of the best 12's, personally I think he's a better 13 so this weekend hopefully will prove that. McCloskey is IMO the form 12 in Ireland at the moment but he doesn't even get selected to go on tour and only gets the nod when Hume gets injured.
Carberry has failed to impress for club or country IMO but there he is in the match-day squad yet again. It's an experiment that hasn't worked yet the IRFU suits won't have it any other way.

Pete330v2 wrote:There simply is bias against certain players as well as favouritism shown to some undeserving players.

Nobody said that Henshaw isn't regarded as one of the best 12's, personally I think he's a better 13 so this weekend hopefully will prove that. McCloskey is IMO the form 12 in Ireland at the moment but he doesn't even get selected to go on tour and only gets the nod when Hume gets injured.
Carberry has failed to impress for club or country IMO but there he is in the match-day squad yet again. It's an experiment that hasn't worked yet the IRFU suits won't have it any other way.

 Of course there is bias towards certain players from coaches, that happens in most pro teams. But that's not what was being discussed here. What's being claimed is that players are being picked because they play for a certain province, which is just flat out nonsense. Especially considering our head coach isn't even Irish.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:There simply is bias against certain players as well as favouritism shown to some undeserving players.

Nobody said that Henshaw isn't regarded as one of the best 12's, personally I think he's a better 13 so this weekend hopefully will prove that. McCloskey is IMO the form 12 in Ireland at the moment but he doesn't even get selected to go on tour and only gets the nod when Hume gets injured.
Carberry has failed to impress for club or country IMO but there he is in the match-day squad yet again. It's an experiment that hasn't worked yet the IRFU suits won't have it any other way.

 Of course there is bias towards certain players from coaches, that happens in most pro teams. But that's not what was being discussed here. What's being claimed is that players are being picked because they play for a certain province, which is just flat out nonsense. Especially considering our head coach isn't even Irish.

Flat out nonsense? Explain?
Seeing as this bias is so simple to disprove.

Some people live in comfortable little bubbles.

Pete330v2 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:There simply is bias against certain players as well as favouritism shown to some undeserving players.

Nobody said that Henshaw isn't regarded as one of the best 12's, personally I think he's a better 13 so this weekend hopefully will prove that. McCloskey is IMO the form 12 in Ireland at the moment but he doesn't even get selected to go on tour and only gets the nod when Hume gets injured.
Carberry has failed to impress for club or country IMO but there he is in the match-day squad yet again. It's an experiment that hasn't worked yet the IRFU suits won't have it any other way.

 Of course there is bias towards certain players from coaches, that happens in most pro teams. But that's not what was being discussed here. What's being claimed is that players are being picked because they play for a certain province, which is just flat out nonsense. Especially considering our head coach isn't even Irish.

Flat out nonsense? Explain?
Seeing as this bias is so simple to disprove.

Some people live in comfortable little bubbles.

I mean I could list the players from Leinster that I thought could have made squads over the years but surely the onus of proof is on you? Why is a coach from Northern England so against picking players from Ulster? Why would he actively go out of his way to weakening the national side? I mean how good would Ireland be if we didn't have such a prejudiced coach...

I know I said I didn't want to get into an inter-pro slanging match, but ...

I don't believe there is an anti-Ulster bias, others may disagree, but I believe in relatively recent years there is a systematic bias towards the dominant province, and those on central contracts. This means Leinster at the moment. What does Coombes have to do to get a run of games? Yes Conan has Lions caps, but he hasn't been on top form since he caem back from the tour in my opinion. Gibson-Park wasn't great in first few appearances but has had the game time to show the requisite quality, something that Marmion wasn't afforded.

I'm not saying that all the Leinster players aren't worth their places, far from it. But they do seem to get more opportunity to settle in and adapt to international rugby than players from the other provinces. I imagine the rationale is that it is better to take players or combinations from a winning team, used to winning at the highest level, with a winning mentality. But obviously I think this is a bit simplistic.

Murray has been a great servant to Ireland, but would he be getting gametime if he wasn't centrally contracted? And yes I do believe that Farrell could be prepared to accept outside pressure on a "pick your battles" basis.

These are all person opinions, not facts, not even internet facts, so I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with them. Nor will this opinions stop me supporting Ireland, though they make me shout pointlessly at the TV even more.

Very similar game to last week - Ireland starting well, NZ set piece malfunctioning

Wow, not often you see NZ with so much position and not looking threatening and their opponents being the ones to score off each visit to the 22.

How long until ABs start panicking and forcing things?

Great start, long long way to go.

Collapse2005 wrote:Great start, long long way to go.

Relax, Ireland have got this. By a lot.

Duty281 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Great start, long long way to go.

Relax, Ireland have got this. By a lot.

I think you're under playing it.

Surely the ABs coaching team won't survive if this becomes the big defeat that it's looking like?

Ireland rampant!

Looks like it so far. NZ are totally falling apart.

Jaysus, at 3-15 I was still half-expecting the inevitable 2 All Black tries before half-time to go in ahead.

This is so much more exciting than the Lions series, and not just because there's a full crowd, with Ireland winning.

Absolutely comprehensive perofrmance by Ireland this half. Probably the best half of rugby I have seen from Ireland.

This looks like a forth defeat in five games for New Zealand - at least I hope so, Ireland are far and away the better team - and their next two games are away to South Africa. Could easily be seven in eight.

Anyone will fancy playing New Zealand now - Ireland are making them look very very average.

MichaelT wrote:This looks like a forth defeat in five games for New Zealand - at least I hope so, Ireland are far and away the better team - and their next two games are away to South Africa. Could easily be seven in eight.

Anyone will fancy playing New Zealand now - Ireland are making them look very very average.

boks won't score three tries in a half vs All Blacks.

That was not the opening 40 minutes I was expecting. NZ have to respond in the second half.

All 3 of Irelands series against the big 3 in the SH have gone to a series decider. Maybe its time to scrap Lions tours?

Old Man wrote:Absolutely comprehensive perofrmance by Ireland this half. Probably the best half of rugby I have seen from Ireland.

As an England supporter, this is bringing back memories of our match against Ireland at Croke Park in 2007. Ireland led 23-3 at half time and the final score was 43-13.

I hope the Irish players can stay fit and disciplined enough to see this one through. NO CARDS!

I’m genuinely surprised NZ were favourites for this game. I always fancied Ireland for this, after test 2. NZ are not a good side. A lot of teams might fancy playing them at present.

Do not like this smaller player goes backwards so deemed less dangerous interpretation.

Lolz, a yellow card. It's exactly 50-50. The Kiwi player does as much head contact as Porter.

No difference to last weeks red. They are either both red or neither. Aki might be in trouble for that clear out earlier too, head contact there too.

Its lucky alright but less impact seems fair enough

Porter is a very lucky boy. Where's the consistency?

Hes pretty quick.

It probably should have been a red. Porter can get lower, especially when the carrier is 6’8.

Not looking good for Ireland now

Holy crap Jordan is quick!