The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

First topic message reminder :

Now it is official (and some guy with a green admin name has ruined the other thread) I shall put this here for you to discuss the referendum.

Pr4wn wrote:This is a bloke, remember, who argued that all schools should be better than average.

That does sound a bit daft but I suspect he meant better than a set of criteria labelled as 'average'.

Ok, how about this.

He claims Remain are operating a fear campaign and then:

1) Says we have to leave "before it's too late"
2) Says that by voting remain, the British people are "voting to be hostages, locked in the back of a car"
3) Publishes a list of EU migrant rapists and murderers

Talk about hypocrisy. He's a total buffoon.

Pr4wn wrote:Chuka Umunna, the former shadow business secretary, told ITV’s Good Morning Britain: “Essentially, those who want us to leave can’t answer the question: ‘Will we be able to have all the benefits that we have in the EU, being part of that big, free trade, single market trading zone if we come out, can you guarantee that?’

“They don’t have an answer to that in the event that we leave. So instead they go to this big conspiracy theory that somehow you have got the country’s biggest unions – so Len McCluskey, the head of Unite, and Dave Prentis, the head of Unison – in cahoots with those well-known socialists at the CBI, the big business organisation, and the IMF’s Christine Lagarde, [and] all of this being orchestrated by Len McCluskey’s new best friend, the Tory chancellor, George Osborne, aided and abetted by President Obama, all campaigning against EU exit.”

Yes Chucka, I can guarantee that our nation will trade with the EU after leaving. I would stake my life on it. And it's pretty bloody likely that it will be a good trade deal for this country, as well. And do you know what else will be wonderful if we left? The freedom of our nation to instigate its own trade deals the world over, opening ourselves out globally, rather than being stuck in a 19th century Euro-centric world.

Obama wants the UK in the EU because it's good for America. Osborne and the Treasury can't accurately predict the economy of the country from one quarter to the next, so 14 years on seems rather fanciful. And the CBI said this nation should join the Euro, and warned of dire consequences otherwise.

Anyway, it's all rather missing the point.

This referendum is about the sovereignty of our Parliament, and the people of this country having democratic control over their government - something the 'Remain' side hate to talk about!

That all sounds flag-wavingly lovely, Duty, but there's still nothing about the facts, figures and forecasts released by the IMF, the CBI, Oxford academics, the Treasury etc.

All the Leave side does is stick their fingers in their ears and shout louder. They cannot provide ANY figures of their own because it's all rubbish. They literally have no idea.

Pr4wn wrote:That all sounds flag-wavingly lovely, Duty, but there's still nothing about the facts, figures and forecasts released by the IMF, the CBI, Oxford academics, the Treasury etc.

All the Leave side does is stick their fingers in their ears and shout louder. They cannot provide ANY figures of their own because it's all rubbish. They literally have no idea.

Osborne says leaving would create a £36 billion hole in public finances by 2030.

Let's take that as truth.

In 2015, the United Kingdom gave the European Union £13 billion. Now, the EU invested £4.5 billion back into the UK, which leaves us with £8.5 billion.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

Now let's say this figure remains static over the next fifteen years (it won't, obviously, it will go up as time passes). 8.5 billion x 15 = £127.5 billion.

Wow, nearly £128 billion saved! Stick that in the hole.

Duty281 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:Chuka Umunna, the former shadow business secretary, told ITV’s Good Morning Britain: “Essentially, those who want us to leave can’t answer the question: ‘Will we be able to have all the benefits that we have in the EU, being part of that big, free trade, single market trading zone if we come out, can you guarantee that?’

“They don’t have an answer to that in the event that we leave. So instead they go to this big conspiracy theory that somehow you have got the country’s biggest unions – so Len McCluskey, the head of Unite, and Dave Prentis, the head of Unison – in cahoots with those well-known socialists at the CBI, the big business organisation, and the IMF’s Christine Lagarde, [and] all of this being orchestrated by Len McCluskey’s new best friend, the Tory chancellor, George Osborne, aided and abetted by President Obama, all campaigning against EU exit.”

Yes Chucka, I can guarantee that our nation will trade with the EU after leaving. I would stake my life on it. And it's pretty bloody likely that it will be a good trade deal for this country, as well. And do you know what else will be wonderful if we left? The freedom of our nation to instigate its own trade deals the world over, opening ourselves out globally, rather than being stuck in a 19th century Euro-centric world.

Obama wants the UK in the EU because it's good for America. Osborne and the Treasury can't accurately predict the economy of the country from one quarter to the next, so 14 years on seems rather fanciful. And the CBI said this nation should join the Euro, and warned of dire consequences otherwise.

Anyway, it's all rather missing the point.

This referendum is about the sovereignty of our Parliament, and the people of this country having democratic control over their government - something the 'Remain' side hate to talk about!

You sir are a total and utter buffoon of the highest order.

Yes, of course we would have a trade deal.

Q: But what does that trade deal look like?

You have no riposte as one simply hasn't been negotiated in the event of us leaving the EU. You cannot base any assumption that we would have a favourable trade deal as various EU states have said "errrr no, we would batter you in the event of leaving" - it is no secret France are going to tarriff us to the hilt so they can take as much of the finance sector as possible to their shores.

You have absolutely zero idea what "deal" would be agreed by EU states. And it's not scaremongering as these states would simply attempt to push us out of the equation by opening their arms to foreign businesses currently based here. Do you have any quotes, anything that ANY senior state politician has said from the EU that is a positive when it comes to trade deals? Because I've got sh*t loads - on Sunday the French economy minister said that Britain would be "completely killed" in the event of leaving.

And you're just showing your UKIP colours about soveignity and a level of ignorance unbenknown to most sensible people by saying it's the only issue - it certainly isn't. We have democratic control over our government as well - we vote for which party we want to lead the country and make decisions on our behalf, jesus christ.

Not long to go now before we vote in, Farage/Carswell/UKIP have no real reason to exist in the political sphere and we all live happily ever after.

Coxy001 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:Chuka Umunna, the former shadow business secretary, told ITV’s Good Morning Britain: “Essentially, those who want us to leave can’t answer the question: ‘Will we be able to have all the benefits that we have in the EU, being part of that big, free trade, single market trading zone if we come out, can you guarantee that?’

“They don’t have an answer to that in the event that we leave. So instead they go to this big conspiracy theory that somehow you have got the country’s biggest unions – so Len McCluskey, the head of Unite, and Dave Prentis, the head of Unison – in cahoots with those well-known socialists at the CBI, the big business organisation, and the IMF’s Christine Lagarde, [and] all of this being orchestrated by Len McCluskey’s new best friend, the Tory chancellor, George Osborne, aided and abetted by President Obama, all campaigning against EU exit.”

Yes Chucka, I can guarantee that our nation will trade with the EU after leaving. I would stake my life on it. And it's pretty bloody likely that it will be a good trade deal for this country, as well. And do you know what else will be wonderful if we left? The freedom of our nation to instigate its own trade deals the world over, opening ourselves out globally, rather than being stuck in a 19th century Euro-centric world.

Obama wants the UK in the EU because it's good for America. Osborne and the Treasury can't accurately predict the economy of the country from one quarter to the next, so 14 years on seems rather fanciful. And the CBI said this nation should join the Euro, and warned of dire consequences otherwise.

Anyway, it's all rather missing the point.

This referendum is about the sovereignty of our Parliament, and the people of this country having democratic control over their government - something the 'Remain' side hate to talk about!

You sir are a total and utter buffoon of the highest order.

Yes, of course we would have a trade deal.

Q: But what does that trade deal look like?

You have no riposte as one simply hasn't been negotiated in the event of us leaving the EU. You cannot base any assumption that we would have a favourable trade deal as various EU states have said "errrr no, we would batter you in the event of leaving" - it is no secret France are going to tarriff us to the hilt so they can take as much of the finance sector as possible to their shores.

You have absolutely zero idea what "deal" would be agreed by EU states. And it's not scaremongering as these states would simply attempt to push us out of the equation by opening their arms to foreign businesses currently based here. Do you have any quotes, anything that ANY senior state politician has said from the EU that is a positive when it comes to trade deals? Because I've got sh*t loads - on Sunday the French economy minister said that Britain would be "completely killed" in the event of leaving.

And you're just showing your UKIP colours about soveignity and a level of ignorance unbenknown to most sensible people by saying it's the only issue - it certainly isn't. We have democratic control over our government as well - we vote for which party we want to lead the country and make decisions on our behalf, jesus christ.

Not long to go now before we vote in, Farage/Carswell/UKIP have no real reason to exist in the political sphere and we all live happily ever after.

You don't have democratic control, at all. How do you vote out a European Commissioner? You can't, there is no mechanism in place. And the European Commission has sovereignty (in other words, supreme law-making power) over our Parliament.

Sovereignty is not the only issue (I have never said that, either) but it is the main one.

I heard the French Economy Minister speak as well. He appeared to be terribly ignorant, as he insinuated that the UK would be at the level of Jersey if we left the EU - makes me wonder how those 180-odd independent countries outside the EU manage to survive and even, in some cases, prosper!

France are going to tariff us to the hilt, are they? You may be surprised, but being the 5th largest economy in the world does bring with it some negotiating clout as well.

Hey, you leave my corrupt little rock out of this ;-)

Yes, 5th largest economy. But we're still chicken feed compared to the EU as a whole. They will control the trade talks as the UK stands to lose far more, comparatively.

Duty281 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:That all sounds flag-wavingly lovely, Duty, but there's still nothing about the facts, figures and forecasts released by the IMF, the CBI, Oxford academics, the Treasury etc.

All the Leave side does is stick their fingers in their ears and shout louder. They cannot provide ANY figures of their own because it's all rubbish. They literally have no idea.

Osborne says leaving would create a £36 billion hole in public finances by 2030.

Let's take that as truth.

In 2015, the United Kingdom gave the European Union £13 billion. Now, the EU invested £4.5 billion back into the UK, which leaves us with £8.5 billion.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

Now let's say this figure remains static over the next fifteen years (it won't, obviously, it will go up as time passes). 8.5 billion x 15 = £127.5 billion.

Wow, nearly £128 billion saved! Stick that in the hole.

Except that's hopeles ignorant bullcr@p, as has been pointed out numerous times. No country has access to Europe as a trading partner without paying for the privilege, including the oft quoted Norway. So that 'saving' is absolute hocum.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:That all sounds flag-wavingly lovely, Duty, but there's still nothing about the facts, figures and forecasts released by the IMF, the CBI, Oxford academics, the Treasury etc.

All the Leave side does is stick their fingers in their ears and shout louder. They cannot provide ANY figures of their own because it's all rubbish. They literally have no idea.

Osborne says leaving would create a £36 billion hole in public finances by 2030.

Let's take that as truth.

In 2015, the United Kingdom gave the European Union £13 billion. Now, the EU invested £4.5 billion back into the UK, which leaves us with £8.5 billion.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

Now let's say this figure remains static over the next fifteen years (it won't, obviously, it will go up as time passes). 8.5 billion x 15 = £127.5 billion.

Wow, nearly £128 billion saved! Stick that in the hole.

Except that's hopeles ignorant bullcr@p, as has been pointed out numerous times.  No country has access to Europe as a trading partner without paying for the privilege, including the oft quoted Norway.  So that 'saving' is absolute hocum.

How much do Canada pay to trade with the EU, purely out of interest?

Pr4wn wrote:Hey, you leave my corrupt little rock out of this ;-)

Yes, 5th largest economy. But we're still chicken feed compared to the EU as a whole. They will control the trade talks as the UK stands to lose far more, comparatively.

The UK isn't the 5th largest economy when the EU as a bloc is considered as a whole.

Which is another reason why the kind of arguments Farage mouth-pieces like Duty put forward never stack up. They idealistic piffle, built on nationalism and jingoism, that the UK is God's great country and nobody would dare stand up to us in any kind of negotiation. They already have done, plenty, and will continue to do so.

Remember the French and British beef? Duty was about 2 years old but the EU lifted the ban on Brit exports and France just said "Non". They're the most protectionist nation in the EU bloc and if someone doesn't think they'll aggressively block any UK favourable trade deals (even if to the detriment of the EU as a whole) then they are naive in the extreme.

I'm glad people like Duty are about though, helpfully reaffirms my remain vote.

Duty281 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:That all sounds flag-wavingly lovely, Duty, but there's still nothing about the facts, figures and forecasts released by the IMF, the CBI, Oxford academics, the Treasury etc.

All the Leave side does is stick their fingers in their ears and shout louder. They cannot provide ANY figures of their own because it's all rubbish. They literally have no idea.

Osborne says leaving would create a £36 billion hole in public finances by 2030.

Let's take that as truth.

In 2015, the United Kingdom gave the European Union £13 billion. Now, the EU invested £4.5 billion back into the UK, which leaves us with £8.5 billion.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

Now let's say this figure remains static over the next fifteen years (it won't, obviously, it will go up as time passes). 8.5 billion x 15 = £127.5 billion.

Wow, nearly £128 billion saved! Stick that in the hole.

Except that's hopeles ignorant bullcr@p, as has been pointed out numerous times.  No country has access to Europe as a trading partner without paying for the privilege, including the oft quoted Norway.  So that 'saving' is absolute hocum.

How much do Canada pay to trade with the EU, purely out of interest?

What relevance are Canada as a trade partner? Or, vice versa, how important is the EU to Canada? Also, what is traded?

Nice to see you've given up on Norway as a bastion of greatness though. Just like the Scots did.....

It feels weird being on the same side of an argument as TopHat.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:That all sounds flag-wavingly lovely, Duty, but there's still nothing about the facts, figures and forecasts released by the IMF, the CBI, Oxford academics, the Treasury etc.

All the Leave side does is stick their fingers in their ears and shout louder. They cannot provide ANY figures of their own because it's all rubbish. They literally have no idea.

Osborne says leaving would create a £36 billion hole in public finances by 2030.

Let's take that as truth.

In 2015, the United Kingdom gave the European Union £13 billion. Now, the EU invested £4.5 billion back into the UK, which leaves us with £8.5 billion.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

Now let's say this figure remains static over the next fifteen years (it won't, obviously, it will go up as time passes). 8.5 billion x 15 = £127.5 billion.

Wow, nearly £128 billion saved! Stick that in the hole.

Except that's hopeles ignorant bullcr@p, as has been pointed out numerous times.  No country has access to Europe as a trading partner without paying for the privilege, including the oft quoted Norway.  So that 'saving' is absolute hocum.

How much do Canada pay to trade with the EU, purely out of interest?

What relevance are Canada as a trade partner? Or, vice versa, how important is the EU to Canada? Also, what is traded?

Nice to see you've given up on Norway as a bastion of greatness though.  Just like the Scots did.....

That's irrelevant. You said no country could access the EU (not Europe) as a trading partner without paying for the privilege - do Canada? I don't think they do.

And I've never held Norway as a bastion of greatness, either, stop making things up.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:Hey, you leave my corrupt little rock out of this ;-)

Yes, 5th largest economy. But we're still chicken feed compared to the EU as a whole. They will control the trade talks as the UK stands to lose far more, comparatively.

The UK isn't the 5th largest economy when the EU as a bloc is considered as a whole.

Which is another reason why the kind of arguments Farage mouth-pieces like Duty put forward never stack up.  They idealistic piffle, built on nationalism and jingoism, that the UK is God's great country and nobody would dare stand up to us in any kind of negotiation.  They already have done, plenty, and will continue to do so.

Remember the French and British beef? Duty was about 2 years old but the EU lifted the ban on Brit exports and France just said "Non".  They're the most protectionist nation in the EU bloc and if someone doesn't think they'll aggressively block any UK favourable trade deals (even if to the detriment of the EU as a whole) then they are naive in the extreme.

I'm glad people like Duty are about though, helpfully reaffirms my remain vote.

What on earth are you rabbiting on about? I've said numerous times on this forum that the UK holds little influence within the EU, is frequently out-voted and out-shouted, to the disagreement of the 'Remain' side who claim we as a nation can reform the EU - hardly a ringing endorsement of nationalism.

http://www.cityam.com/235957/canada-shows-why-aspiring-to-a-free-trade-deal-with-the-eu-post-EU exit-would-be-a-huge-gamble

The Canada-EU trade agreement has taken seven years so far and still has to be ratified by the European Council and Parliament. Whereas Britain has a role in shaping the rules that govern the EU market, Canada has to just accept them. With car manufacturing, for example, in order to access the Single Market, Canadian exporters must ensure their cars meet EU standards that they have had no role in setting. It should also be noted that the Canadian deal doesn’t fully include financial services, an area that would be vital in any potential EU-UK negotiation.

One extract. My highlight as this a major issue for me personally, and should be a concern for all UK citizens.

Pr4wn wrote:That all sounds flag-wavingly lovely, Duty, but there's still nothing about the facts, figures and forecasts released by the IMF, the CBI, Oxford academics, the Treasury etc.

All the Leave side does is stick their fingers in their ears and shout louder. They cannot provide ANY figures of their own because it's all rubbish. They literally have no idea.

And here's some more figures - Professor Minford from the Institute of Economic Affairs reckons that EU membership costs us at least 13% GDP per year, thanks to various burdensome policies and regulations.

http://www.iea.org.uk/in-the-media/press-release/eu-policies-threaten-to-cost-britain-%C2%A39265-household

Duty281 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:Hey, you leave my corrupt little rock out of this ;-)

Yes, 5th largest economy. But we're still chicken feed compared to the EU as a whole. They will control the trade talks as the UK stands to lose far more, comparatively.

The UK isn't the 5th largest economy when the EU as a bloc is considered as a whole.

Which is another reason why the kind of arguments Farage mouth-pieces like Duty put forward never stack up.  They idealistic piffle, built on nationalism and jingoism, that the UK is God's great country and nobody would dare stand up to us in any kind of negotiation.  They already have done, plenty, and will continue to do so.

Remember the French and British beef? Duty was about 2 years old but the EU lifted the ban on Brit exports and France just said "Non".  They're the most protectionist nation in the EU bloc and if someone doesn't think they'll aggressively block any UK favourable trade deals (even if to the detriment of the EU as a whole) then they are naive in the extreme.

I'm glad people like Duty are about though, helpfully reaffirms my remain vote.

What on earth are you rabbiting on about? I've said numerous times on this forum that the UK holds little influence within the EU, is frequently out-voted and out-shouted, to the disagreement of the 'Remain' side who claim we as a nation can reform the EU - hardly a ringing endorsement of nationalism.

You seem to believe the UK can negotiate & secure better deals outside of the EU though, which is my point, like UK outside of the EU is somehow more powerful & influential.

This is the blind nationalism/jingoism and is where the Scots fell down also.

Duty281 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:That all sounds flag-wavingly lovely, Duty, but there's still nothing about the facts, figures and forecasts released by the IMF, the CBI, Oxford academics, the Treasury etc.

All the Leave side does is stick their fingers in their ears and shout louder. They cannot provide ANY figures of their own because it's all rubbish. They literally have no idea.

And here's some more figures - Professor Minford from the Institute of Economic Affairs reckons that EU membership costs us at least 13% GDP per year, thanks to various burdensome policies and regulations.

http://www.iea.org.uk/in-the-media/press-release/eu-policies-threaten-to-cost-britain-%C2%A39265-household

Policies which we'll still have to accept and adhere to whilst having zero decision making power once "Wee weeing outside the pot" as Truss would put it.

Pr4wn wrote:It feels weird being on the same side of an argument as TopHat.

I hope you feel dirty and uncomfortable.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:It feels weird being on the same side of an argument as TopHat.

I hope you feel dirty and uncomfortable.

So tophat can join you in the shower

ShahenshahG wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:It feels weird being on the same side of an argument as TopHat.

I hope you feel dirty and uncomfortable.

So tophat can join you in the shower

You've been here, you know what it feels like....

TopHat24/7 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:It feels weird being on the same side of an argument as TopHat.

I hope you feel dirty and uncomfortable.

So tophat can join you in the shower

You've been here, you know what it feels like....

Aye. Gelatine.

Duty281 wrote:And at no point when we work with other countries should we be forced to surrender the sovereignty of our parliament, the supremacy of our courts, or control of our borders to do so - that's just absurd.

Agreed, we should follow the example of Australia, the Aussies are always a good example of how the UK could prosper if we leave the EU. So we'll sign a free trade agreement with China, though a lot of our produce will still be hit by tariffs so it won't really be 'free' (as Aus), Chinese companies will be able to sue our government for any loss or future loss in profit caused by an action of the government (for example discovering that a substance being made/transported by a Chinese company is harmful and banning it). And like the Aussies, we'll agree to let the Chinese import their own workers for large projects, while others applaud our great immigration policy. Oh, and if our national industries such as manufacturing and farming suffer due to cheap Chinese imports, we can't protect them without the risk of being sued. But at least we'll have our sovereignty. No, wait...

Errr...Norway?

Sorry for sounding like a conspiracy theorist, but does anyone think it's possible that we won't be able to leave? Either through some secret legislation or a dodgy vote administrator? A EU exit could genuinely be a catalyst for a breakdown of the EU.

Hoonercat wrote:

Duty281 wrote:And at no point when we work with other countries should we be forced to surrender the sovereignty of our parliament, the supremacy of our courts, or control of our borders to do so - that's just absurd.

Agreed, we should follow the example of Australia, the Aussies are always a good example of how the UK could prosper if we leave the EU. So we'll sign a free trade agreement with China, though a lot of our produce will still be hit by tariffs so it won't really be 'free' (as Aus), Chinese companies will be able to sue our government for any loss or future loss in profit caused by an action of the government (for example discovering that a substance being made/transported by a Chinese company is harmful and banning it). And like the Aussies, we'll agree to let the Chinese import their own workers for large projects, while others applaud our great immigration policy. Oh, and if our national industries such as manufacturing and farming suffer due to cheap Chinese imports, we can't protect them without the risk of being sued. But at least we'll have our sovereignty. No, wait...

Errr...Norway?

Or maybe we should set our own example, perchance?

kingjohn7 wrote:Sorry for sounding like a conspiracy theorist, but does anyone think it's possible that we won't be able to leave? Either through some secret legislation or a dodgy vote administrator? A EU exit could genuinely be a catalyst for a breakdown of the EU.

Peter Hitchens would certainly agree.

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2016/02/why-i-wont-be-voting-on-referendum-day.html
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2016/02/the-eu-is-our-own-hotel-california-we-can-check-out-but-well-never-leave.html

Peter Hitchens!

Not as good as his brother, alas.

Even you must admit that you're not going to get objective analysis from Peter bloody Hitchens.

Pr4wn wrote:Peter Hitchens!

It's about as bad as Godwin's law, when you resort to Peter Hitchens.....you've f*cked it!

kingjohn7 wrote:Sorry for sounding like a conspiracy theorist, but does anyone think it's possible that we won't be able to leave? Either through some secret legislation or a dodgy vote administrator? A EU exit could genuinely be a catalyst for a breakdown of the EU.

Genuine possibility.

Though you'd think, if the EU leaders recognised this, they'd have been playing a major bluff hand with DC's renegs. Ballsy.

kingjohn7 wrote:A EU exit could genuinely be a catalyst for a breakdown of the EU.

It could be. On the other hand it could be a good thing for the EU, especially if they royally shaft us with trade restrictions and EU exit is seen to be a complete failure. The eastern EU countries, for example, would love to get their hands on the UK's car manufacturing and the structure is already in place - two thirds of car components used in the UK are made in the EU so a shift in production isn't the logistical nightmare that some might imagine. 57.5% of the UK's exported cars go to the EU while sales to China and Russia are falling, if we leave the EU will those huge EU car giants be so keen to keep production in the UK, especially if tariffs are introduced, when the rest of the EU is such a huge and growing market?

Duty281 wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:

Duty281 wrote:And at no point when we work with other countries should we be forced to surrender the sovereignty of our parliament, the supremacy of our courts, or control of our borders to do so - that's just absurd.

Agreed, we should follow the example of Australia, the Aussies are always a good example of how the UK could prosper if we leave the EU. So we'll sign a free trade agreement with China, though a lot of our produce will still be hit by tariffs so it won't really be 'free' (as Aus), Chinese companies will be able to sue our government for any loss or future loss in profit caused by an action of the government (for example discovering that a substance being made/transported by a Chinese company is harmful and banning it). And like the Aussies, we'll agree to let the Chinese import their own workers for large projects, while others applaud our great immigration policy. Oh, and if our national industries such as manufacturing and farming suffer due to cheap Chinese imports, we can't protect them without the risk of being sued. But at least we'll have our sovereignty. No, wait...

Errr...Norway?

Or maybe we should set our own example, perchance?

Of course, silly me - I forgot how easy that would be. Unfortunately the US has already said we would not get a free trade agreement with them, and China's trade deals tend to suit China, as they are the bigger brother in any partnership. It took, from memory, 9 or 10 years of negotiations between Aus and China before settling on a deal, what do we do in the meantime? And of course we would have to 'toe the line' and pay them plenty of lip service, see Norway.

Yet for three years, Beijing has frozen relations with Oslo since a committee appointed by the Norwegian parliament awarded the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize to imprisoned Chinese dissident Liu Xiaobo, deeply embarrassing China's leaders. Diplomatic ties have been gutted, meetings canceled and economic ties hamstrung by an unofficial partial embargo on Norwegian salmon and a freeze on trade talks.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/china-still-miffed-at-norway-3-years-after-nobel-awarded-to-dissident-liu-xiaobo-20131029-2wcv2.html#ixzz46MMnxNFq

F*cking hate China.

Really wish we'd work harder for collaboration with former Commonwealth Nations, principally India, rather than bend over to get tickled by the latest Chinese micro-pen!s.

Not a fan of Gideon and his sweetheart deals with China then? He sold British workers out.

It was also Britain that blocked an EU attempt to raise import tarrifs/barriers to Chinese steel which is what have fooked our industry. Cheap Poopie Chinese cr@p that's flooding the market.

It's not my country and therefore I shouldn't really offer my opinion. So I won't - other than to say 'vote to Leave'

Was at a conference yesterday and one of the main speakers made a fair point.

This is an extremely complex and detailed issue which, frankly, is beyond the understanding of most of us and really is what we elect governments for. It's nice to call it democracy in action but in reality it's a load of people with limited information & understanding making an extremely important decision largely subjectively/emotively.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Was at a conference yesterday and one of the main speakers made a fair point.

This is an extremely complex and detailed issue which, frankly, is beyond the understanding of most of us and really is what we elect governments for.  It's nice to call it democracy in action but in reality it's a load of people with limited information & understanding making an extremely important decision largely subjectively/emotively.

'Cor blimey guv'nor, I ain't never been so insulted.

Now can you break it down for me - I didn't do enough schooling to keep all them big words in my 'ead.

Funny as your jokes are, Duty, he's absolutely right.

It's all guff, from both sides. This is what a government is elected for.

A government that is elected by a 'load of people with limited information and understanding' can't be a very good one, can it?

Democracy isn't perfect, but it's the best system we have.

People of adult age should be perfectly entitled to choose what their sovereign Parliament is, be it the Houses of Parliament or the European Commission.

Duty281 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Was at a conference yesterday and one of the main speakers made a fair point.

This is an extremely complex and detailed issue which, frankly, is beyond the understanding of most of us and really is what we elect governments for.  It's nice to call it democracy in action but in reality it's a load of people with limited information & understanding making an extremely important decision largely subjectively/emotively.

'Cor blimey guv'nor, I ain't never been so insulted.

Now can you break it down for me - I didn't do enough schooling to keep all them big words in my 'ead.

To be honest, Duty, you're better researched than most I've come across, probably know more on the subject than I do (probably because you've been feeding on every nugget Farage has been feeding you for 5+ years) but, frankly, I don't consider you qualified enough to be making this decision on my behalf.

You have beliefs, no issue with that, but you have limited actual facts and your position is largely subjective & emotive.

It reinforces the similarity with the Scots referendum - the most passionate and vocal aren't always the most level-headed & informed. And its part of the reason why, both then and now, I am in support of 'REMAIN'.

Only one fact matters for me - the European Commission is sovereign over our Houses of Parliament.

And that alone will necessitate me to vote Leave.

The rest (free movement of peoples; a large membership fee etc.) are just extras.

I am not making such a decision on your behalf; your vote will carry just as much weight as mine does on the 23rd June. Just as it will for the upcoming local elections, and just as it did for last year's General Election.

Anyone who votes on something like this is making a decision on behalf of every resident of this country.

And re the soverieignty piece, it's nice, hence why Bozzer latched on to it, but again there's a lot of hocum. Leaving the EU would mean scrapping the HRA or removal of our signature to the ECHR etc. International courts would still legislate & preside of cross-border judicial matters (e.g. trade).

Appreciate some changes may happen (I'd like less EU control too, personally) but I don't think it's the golden egg that's being mooted.

There was a great article in the Economist about it, will try dig it out.

TopHat24/7 wrote:This is an extremely complex and detailed issue which, frankly, is beyond the understanding of most of us and really is what we elect governments for.

To be fair; those governments are made up of people, and while we'd like to think those people have a better understanding of what's going on, it's not like getting elected gives you superpowers. The reason people elect governments is because they don't want to have to look at every issue, not because they don't want to look at any.

No but 1) These people are genuinely fairly intelligent & well educated, i.e. there's positive sample bias which you don't get with an open democratic vote (getting a bit Nietzsche here admittedly); and 2) they will generally have access to a lot more information & detail than Joe Public and are paid to make objective analysis and rational decisions for the greater good of the whole (again I appreciate this isn't perfect/wholly accurate in practicality).

I can understand why many city bankers and neo-liberal media moguls would want to leave the EU but can't for the life of me understand why the average middle class or working person can believe they will be better off if britain is forced to pay tariffs to import from the EU and being free to sign bi-lateral trade agreements with the like of the US, China both of whom have considerably poorer employment and human rights standards and a much more powerful negotiating hand when it comes to trade.

Crazy.

TopHat24/7 wrote:2) they will generally have access to a lot more information & detail than Joe Public and are paid to make objective analysis and rational decisions for the greater good of the whole (again I appreciate this isn't perfect/wholly accurate in practicality).

Not sure I accept that they (should) have more information in a referendum campaign, and it seems a bit easy to say that you're the only one capable of making a decision on balance when you don't give anyone else a go. Considering how many different issues they have to decide on, it seems pretty unlikely that most of them had a much better grasp on it when they made their minds up than people will when they have to.

rodders wrote:I can understand why many city bankers and neo-liberal media moguls would want to leave the EU but can't for the life of me understand why the average middle class or working person can believe they will be better off if britain is forced to pay tariffs to import from the EU and being free to sign bi-lateral trade agreements with the like of the US, China both of whom have considerably poorer employment and human rights standards and a much more powerful negotiating hand when it comes to trade.

Crazy.

Tell that to the Greeks. They'd readily add Germany and their Bank to the list.... the true centre of European Government - not Brussels