The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

First topic message reminder :

Now it is official (and some guy with a green admin name has ruined the other thread) I shall put this here for you to discuss the referendum.

I think I'll have to watch the debate for myself. The BBC are saying that neither side moved the needle by much, and yet Duty is telling me it was a "thumping win" for Leave.

The Guardian "snap verdict" is claiming that Sturgeon was the most impressive performer, closely followed by Boris Johnson.

The Torygraph editorial is waxing lyrical about "future PM Boris Johnson" but also credits Sturgeon with an authoritative performances.

I suspect it's just one of these when you just hear what you want to hear.

I guess there's an interesting theoretical question for debate, since it is 100% clear that the LEAVE campaign and all its support essentially boils down to a race/foreigner issue - does wanting to protect your way of life actually make you a racist?

Is my sparky mate who is voting Leave because almost everyone on every site he works is EE and contractors, he says, hire them on the cheap rather than skilled/trained Brit workers, and he wants the playing field levelled and fairer, a racist? He doesn't think less of those people as human beings, he doesn't think he's 'better' than them purely by virtue of being born on the shores of Britain not Poland, he just wants a fairer chance at the life he tried build for him and his family and which he's worked hard for.

TopHat24/7 wrote:I guess there's an interesting theoretical question for debate, since it is 100% clear that the LEAVE campaign and all its support essentially boils down to a race/foreigner issue - does wanting to protect your way of life actually make you a racist?

Is my sparky mate who is voting Leave because almost everyone on every site he works is EE and contractors, he says, hire them on the cheap rather than skilled/trained Brit workers, and he wants the playing field levelled and fairer, a racist? He doesn't think less of those people as human beings, he doesn't think he's 'better' than them purely by virtue of being born on the shores of Britain not Poland, he just wants a fairer chance at the life he tried build for him and his family and which he's worked hard for.

Life isn't fair Toppie. If someone is just as skilled and trained as you are and they're prepared to work for less to secure the work then that's the way it is. If someone is just as skilled as you then it doesn't matter if they're Polish, black, white British or anything though - does it? I've undersold myself to get my foot in the door before and have had people willing to take a lower wage than they asked for due to the same reason.

If someone gets the gig because they're cheaper then you don't hear people complaining that "the English guy got the job" it's sometimes along the lines of "bloody Polish immigrant took it". And I'm not saying your friend is like that.

All duly noted.

My curiosity though is whether the labelling as 'racist' is accurate/fair in such circumstances.

Coxy001 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:I guess there's an interesting theoretical question for debate, since it is 100% clear that the LEAVE campaign and all its support essentially boils down to a race/foreigner issue - does wanting to protect your way of life actually make you a racist?

Is my sparky mate who is voting Leave because almost everyone on every site he works is EE and contractors, he says, hire them on the cheap rather than skilled/trained Brit workers, and he wants the playing field levelled and fairer, a racist? He doesn't think less of those people as human beings, he doesn't think he's 'better' than them purely by virtue of being born on the shores of Britain not Poland, he just wants a fairer chance at the life he tried build for him and his family and which he's worked hard for.

Life isn't fair Toppie. If someone is just as skilled and trained as you are and they're prepared to work for less to secure the work then that's the way it is. If someone is just as skilled as you then it doesn't matter if they're Polish, black, white British or anything though - does it? I've undersold myself to get my foot in the door before and have had people willing to take a lower wage than they asked for due to the same reason.

If someone gets the gig because they're cheaper then you don't hear people complaining that "the English guy got the job" it's sometimes along the lines of "bloody Polish immigrant took it". And I'm not saying your friend is like that.

I think the crux of the issue is probably this: why does the Polish worker have to come to the UK to get that job? And why is the UK government allowing jobs to be given to workers from overseas, as it only increases unemployment, benefit claims, and gives the government less income through tax and NI?

I can understand the Polish worker coming here - higher wages, better standard of living - but I can see that for many people, there's no reason for people from other countries to come here.

Case in point: I had a Polish builder, Tomek, do my back garden fences. He was a lovely guy, apart from working topless with the hairiest chest imaginable showing, and we paid him a fair price (ie, what we'd have paid an English builder). He sends all his money back to Poland to support his family, and lives in a grotty bedsit so they can have more. He gave up on seeing his wife and kids, so that they could have a better life. It's a fantastic story, and I was really pleased to know the money was going somewhere good (rather than to the pub). However - almost every person I tell the story to says "why didn't you get an English builder to do the work?". My answer: he came recommended to us, for the quality of his work.

Now, two years later, we've had our fences re-done. The old ones fell down because someone (no names mentioned) forgot to use cement in all but one of the post holes

I posted this on the other thread:-

I'm out. As a small business Brussels are crippling us. Why am I paying the same business rates as businesses in Cardiff ?

I challenged my local authorities about this and they are telling me it is out of their hands all these decisions are made in Brussels. How the feck can somebody who has never been to Merthyr decide what rates we pay ?

The EU is costing me about £30,000-£40,000 a year and the rates are going to go up !!!!!

I am fed up of it all.


I might just add though, that it is not my only gripe. I have lots of other issues with the EU.

LordDowlais wrote:I posted this on the other thread:-

I'm out. As a small business Brussels are crippling us. Why am I paying the same business rates as businesses in Cardiff ?

I challenged my local authorities about this and they are telling me it is out of their hands all these decisions are made in Brussels. How the feck can somebody who has never been to Merthyr decide what rates we pay ?

The EU is costing me about £30,000-£40,000 a year and the rates are going to go up !!!!!

I am fed up of it all.

I might just add though, that it is not my only gripe. I have lots of other issues with the EU.

Complete bullsh!t and spoken from a position of total ignorance.

Which seems to be where most LEAVE supports come from.

PS: Your LA are 100% mugging you off.

Here come the racist cards, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

mikey_dragon wrote:Here come the racist cards, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Where, exactly??

LordDowlais wrote:I posted this on the other thread:-

I'm out. As a small business Brussels are crippling us. Why am I paying the same business rates as businesses in Cardiff ?

I challenged my local authorities about this and they are telling me it is out of their hands all these decisions are made in Brussels. How the feck can somebody who has never been to Merthyr decide what rates we pay?

Is visiting Merthyr a requirement for all politicians making decisions that affect you??

I'm not convinced either that your Local Authority are accurately describing the extent of their powers. Worth double checking that I think.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Here come the racist cards, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Where, exactly??

You've brought immigration and racist accusations into the discussion on several occasions and you're really asking that question?

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think I'll have to watch the debate for myself. The BBC are saying that neither side moved the needle by much, and yet Duty is telling me it was a "thumping win" for Leave.

The Guardian "snap verdict" is claiming that Sturgeon was the most impressive performer, closely followed by Boris Johnson.

The Torygraph editorial is waxing lyrical about "future PM Boris Johnson" but also credits Sturgeon with an authoritative performances.

I suspect it's just one of these when you just hear what you want to hear.

Didn't see it, had no interest, just went by the ratings on the Red Box website.

60% of undecided folk who were polled are now voting Leave after watching the debate. Sounds good enough to me.

mikey_dragon wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Here come the racist cards, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Where, exactly??

You've brought immigration and racist accusations into the discussion on several occasions and you're really asking that question?

TopHat, I've gone back to your recent posts rather than skimming over it and I think we might be on the same wavelength when it comes to certain folk accusing others of racism.

I've got a question for certain factions, where are these skilled EU workers? Where I come from, a modest working class background and a city that has had ups and downs, doesn't seem to have any of them.

Why don't the 'Leave' posters here simply give their reason as "I want to Leave the EU"?

After all, all their reasons for doing so are always stupid, idiotic, dumb, facile, racist, ignorant, dubious, badly researched, irrelevant, isolationist, right wing, left wing, pie-in-the-sky, clap-trap, bunk and probably bad for business in Benidorm.

mikey_dragon wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Here come the racist cards, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Where, exactly??

You've brought immigration and racist accusations into the discussion on several occasions and you're really asking that question?

No I raised a discussion point. That's how forums work.

And, if anything, I was defending those blaming all things wrong with the world on 'foreigners' by asking whether it is really fair to label them 'racist'.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Here come the racist cards, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Where, exactly??

You've brought immigration and racist accusations into the discussion on several occasions and you're really asking that question?

No I raised a discussion point.  That's how forums work.

And, if anything, I was defending those blaming all things wrong with the world on 'foreigners' by asking whether it is really fair to label them 'racist'.

Which is exactly what you do, as you are bigoted and intolerant of other opinions.

Something which you have shown to be so on numerous occasions.

LordDowlais wrote:I posted this on the other thread:-

I'm out. As a small business Brussels are crippling us. Why am I paying the same business rates as businesses in Cardiff ?

I challenged my local authorities about this and they are telling me it is out of their hands all these decisions are made in Brussels. How the feck can somebody who has never been to Merthyr decide what rates we pay ?

The EU is costing me about £30,000-£40,000 a year and the rates are going to go up !!!!!

I am fed up of it all.


I might just add though, that it is not my only gripe. I have lots of other issues with the EU.

How on earth do you run a business if you're thick as proverbial pig....?!?

Business rates are set by your Welsh Assembly Government, well secondary legislation to the Local Government Finance Act (1988). In no way shape or form are they set or amended by the EU.

See, I keep saying it but it's the stupid people voting to leave. As evidenced by the above.

Out of all the things I've heard from Duty I think this one takes the biscuit.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Here come the racist cards, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Where, exactly??

You've brought immigration and racist accusations into the discussion on several occasions and you're really asking that question?

No I raised a discussion point.  That's how forums work.

And, if anything, I was defending those blaming all things wrong with the world on 'foreigners' by asking whether it is really fair to label them 'racist'.

For some reason you're intent on making this all about immigration, perhaps so you can then fit it in with whatever you are going to accuse the leave campaign of next I don't know.

Yes, my last post addressed that, but it's a shame you also rather subtly put in another dumb accusation. More of the usual turd from the stay brigade that I expect to find elsewhere and not here.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but the whole 'we pay too much for entry' thing doesn't really add up based upon GNI.

Duty281 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Here come the racist cards, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Where, exactly??

You've brought immigration and racist accusations into the discussion on several occasions and you're really asking that question?

No I raised a discussion point.  That's how forums work.

And, if anything, I was defending those blaming all things wrong with the world on 'foreigners' by asking whether it is really fair to label them 'racist'.

Which is exactly what you do, as you are bigoted and intolerant of other opinions.

Something which you have shown to be so on numerous occasions.

What have I done now? Your post makes no sense.

mikey_dragon wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Here come the racist cards, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Where, exactly??

You've brought immigration and racist accusations into the discussion on several occasions and you're really asking that question?

No I raised a discussion point.  That's how forums work.

And, if anything, I was defending those blaming all things wrong with the world on 'foreigners' by asking whether it is really fair to label them 'racist'.

For some reason you're intent on making this all about immigration, perhaps so you can then fit it in with whatever you are going to accuse the leave campaign of next I don't know.

Yes, my last post addressed that, but it's a shame you also rather subtly put in another dumb accusation. More of the usual turd from the stay brigade that I expect to find elsewhere and not here.

Yet to find any 'LEAVER' whose arguments don't boil down to immigration. It's as simple as that.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Here come the racist cards, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Where, exactly??

You've brought immigration and racist accusations into the discussion on several occasions and you're really asking that question?

No I raised a discussion point.  That's how forums work.

And, if anything, I was defending those blaming all things wrong with the world on 'foreigners' by asking whether it is really fair to label them 'racist'.

For some reason you're intent on making this all about immigration, perhaps so you can then fit it in with whatever you are going to accuse the leave campaign of next I don't know.

Yes, my last post addressed that, but it's a shame you also rather subtly put in another dumb accusation. More of the usual turd from the stay brigade that I expect to find elsewhere and not here.

Yet to find any 'LEAVER' whose arguments don't boil down to immigration.  It's as simple as that.

You've confused 'yet to find' with 'ignoring any'.

Here's a question for the Leave voters.

If you can have ALL of the pluses of leaving except those that involve immigration would you be happy with that?

Duty281 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Here come the racist cards, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Where, exactly??

You've brought immigration and racist accusations into the discussion on several occasions and you're really asking that question?

No I raised a discussion point.  That's how forums work.

And, if anything, I was defending those blaming all things wrong with the world on 'foreigners' by asking whether it is really fair to label them 'racist'.

For some reason you're intent on making this all about immigration, perhaps so you can then fit it in with whatever you are going to accuse the leave campaign of next I don't know.

Yes, my last post addressed that, but it's a shame you also rather subtly put in another dumb accusation. More of the usual turd from the stay brigade that I expect to find elsewhere and not here.

Yet to find any 'LEAVER' whose arguments don't boil down to immigration.  It's as simple as that.

You've confused 'yet to find' with 'ignoring any'.

No, I haven't. They (you included) always distill down to that. Why? Because it's the one thing that if you removed as a possibility, their interest falls away.

Point out economic consequences of leave? Can deal with that.
Point out £350m is complete BS? Can deal with that.
Point out free trade would neither be free now quick to arrange? Can deal with that.
Say you can have everything you've wanted but STILL must accept relatively open borders? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hence why it always all boils down to immigration.

Hero wrote:Here's a question for the Leave voters.

If you can have ALL of the pluses of leaving except those that involve immigration would you be happy with that?

Leaving the EU isn't going to halt immigration though and besides, immigration is just one slice in a whole pizza, something we're all aware of yet it doesn't seem to register with #TeamStay.

Hero wrote:Here's a question for the Leave voters.

If you can have ALL of the pluses of leaving except those that involve immigration would you be happy with that?

Yes. (Immigration being my 4th strongest reason for voting Leave - behind a sovereign Parliament, greater democratic control, and freedom to trade globally without reliance on the EU).

mikey_dragon wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Here come the racist cards, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Where, exactly??

You've brought immigration and racist accusations into the discussion on several occasions and you're really asking that question?

TopHat, I've gone back to your recent posts rather than skimming over it and I think we might be on the same wavelength when it comes to certain folk accusing others of racism.

I've got a question for certain factions, where are these skilled EU workers? Where I come from, a modest working class background and a city that has had ups and downs, doesn't seem to have any of them.

I work in corporate security for a medical company 20 miles down the road and see about 450-800 regulars a week. Thats not counting the significant visitors list which ranges between 26000 and 47000 visitors per year about 30 % from europe. Going back to the likely impact of the exit on scientific research.

The only reason why I would vote remain is because of fear of change (possible affect on inflation).  On principle I would vote out because the EU is undemocratic and a bit thuggish to those inside and outside of it.  The standard of British politicians is rock bottom, with career politicians with no experience being voted into parliament ... about time they did a proper job and about time they were made to be properly accountable for their actions. At the moment we have a sort of half way house with no real democracy.

Nore Staat wrote:The only reason why I would vote remain is because of fear of change (possible affect on inflation).

Only reason I'd vote leave is if I they had presented a clear factually based outcome of what would happen to all our trade deals, price of holidays etc.

And you've got a lot more to be worried about than inflation. Every main KPI is likely to fall off the radar.

British sovereignty or EU sovereignty. British passport or a EU passport.   One or the other. I don't mind which.

Yes I would Hero. I don't think the EU as a whole is much cop anymore. I think they weild far too much power and have to much say in situations and seem to be able to generally do what they want too (along with costing us a fortune). The free movement of people across the EU is a big problem in my eyes as people will obviously go where the moneys best and the only way to deal with that is to level the playing field completely which is impossible across the number of countries involved.

I'm not happy with the amount of money we put into the EU and don't think the benefits are all that great. I also don't like the idea of us (and others) being able to veto others whilst they can't do the same. If we're all supposed to be working for each other then what's the need.

I really don't like the idea of the government pulling statistics out of their bottoms to try and persuade us to stay as isn't that what they were moaning at the SNP for doing during the Scottish independance debate. I don't like the leave camp doing it either by the way but I find the main leaders pulling underhand tricks unsettling for some strange reason.

Oh and i've mentioned it before but knock it off with the insults because someone doesn't agree with your standing, the idea is supposed to be to put your thoughts across, not belittle someone because they don't think the same as you

Derbymanc wrote:I really don't like the idea of the government pulling statistics out of their bottoms to try and persuade us to stay as isn't that what they were moaning at the SNP for doing during the Scottish independance debate.  I don't like the leave camp doing it either by the way but I find the main leaders pulling underhand tricks unsettling for some strange reason.

This I completely agree with, and you're right, it was a blight on the Scottish referendum. Both sides have been guilty of peddling some complete nonsense in terms of statistics, but it's absolutely no reason to vote Leave. Leave's "extra £350m for the NHS pledge" is one of the worst offenders, although the Remain stat of each household being £4,300 worse off is equally silly.

Both sides needs to accept that you can't put precise numbers on this, and any attempt to do so is and will be misleading.

Just going back to the Scottish referendum, the Yes campaign promised a £500 per head "independence dividend". The No campaign came up with £1000 "staying in the UK" dividend. Both numbers were utter nonsense. Turns out of course that due to oil prices the No camp were far closer to the truth, but I still detest putting such precise numbers on these things, as if they make it more "real".

It's not the only reason i'm voting leave but it's just annoying that it tends to happen and then all the focus goes on these crappy figures instead of debating the genuine points.

I'm glad it's being debated here though and it's good to read some proper reasoning from the stay side as well since those that have discussed it that i know are all voting leave.

I think the real issue is about democracy and sovereignty.  If you want a nice stable economy with good job prospects then learn German and go to Germany etc.  The EU is a weird construct with its own monetary system, high court and system of law making.  The laws are proposed / produced by an undemocratic European Commission which operates as an undemocratic Cabinet Government.  Individual powerful countries (e.g. Germany) can make unilateral decisions that effectively railroad policy in the EU.

Ah, cracking, I have given my decision on here, I have given one iota of my reasons, I know what I am talking about, yet I get insulted.

That's the remain campaign to a 'T'.


Every debate I have watched have been the same. Boris Johnson had it last night.

Scare mongerring and insults, that's the remainers for you.

The referendum is a choice between "do nothing" and "do something".  

Normally the "do nothing" group won't be bothered to go out and vote leaving the coast clear for the "do something" group to win.  

So we have the British government and a host of other groups (including external influences such as Obama, the IMF, WTO etc) presenting Brexit as a doomsday scenario, and the Brexiters as racists - ukippers and farage are presented as the national front in disguise, and we get people just jeering them.  Boris Johnson is presented as a buffoon who is just after Cameron's job.

Yet David Cameron and the government seem to have forgotten that just a few months ago Cameron was going to support the leave campaign if he didn't get a deal with the EU on four minor to moderate issues.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-brexit-leave-campaign-10-point-lead-remain-boris-johnson-nigel-farage-david-a7075131.html

Remain 47-53 Leave!

When weighted for turnout, this becomes 45-55 in favour of Leave.

I think the problem with polls is that there is going to be a lot of undecided voters.  I myself am undecided.  But what I will probably do is that if I decide to "remain" (out of fear of the impact on inflation etc) I just won't vote.  But if I decide to exit - I will go and vote.  What is sort of persuading me towards the BREXIT is the rubbish Osborne and Cameron spout.

I think this whole period prior to the referendum is a missed opportunity to properly debate and educate the "people" exactly what the EU is and where it is heading.  I personally believe the EU has to be properly democratised and member states "dissolved" in creating a federated state system along the lines of the USA.   Look at the mess of Greece.

Nore Staat wrote:BREXIT

What about Northern Ireland?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Nore Staat wrote:BREXIT

What about Northern Ireland?

And Gibraltar!

Gbrandniplusgexit.





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