The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

First topic message reminder :

Now it is official (and some guy with a green admin name has ruined the other thread) I shall put this here for you to discuss the referendum.

Shifty wrote:
Everything seems to be conspiring to help the Leave campaign, the PM embroiled in the tax scandal, the Ukraine and Turkey deals, the Dutch vote, the Welsh steel problems being blamed on EU laws.  It's all snowballing against the Remain camp.  Most of the news papers support the Leave, in fact I never knew how right leaning the Mail and Express were since I started checking their websites for stories.  

Ironic, given that from what I read the EU tried to raise import tariffs against the Chinese (who are the root cause of all the UK steel industry's ills, not UKG at all) but it was the UK that blocked them as we're trying to foster a new 'special relationship'.....

The EU excuse is a red herring.

Just take a look at Sajid Javid and his history and you'll see exactly what he stands for,

No major issue with Javid and don't dislike him as bus sec, but I think we should be more cautious re courting the Chinese.....

Anyone that quotes Ayn Rand to his or her partner during courting is dangerous as a politician, in my opinion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36038672

Great news for the Remain side.

Why is Boris staying away? Protecting his leadership bid?

He's a negative on the out campaign...

People realising he really is the Emperor Claudius reborn.. rather than him just acting the part..

Duty281 wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36038672

Great news for the Remain side.

Why?

Thought you'd be unhappy to see your hero dumped on.

Anyone seen the new "Talk to Gran campaign" by the "Better in Europe campaign"

Postcards are being sent out with messages like......"Now sit down Gran, lets have a cuppa, a slice of battenberg and a chat as to why we are better off in the EU"...

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36038672

Great news for the Remain side.

Why?

Thought you'd be unhappy to see your hero dumped on.

Been to numerous events held by both Vote Leave and Grassroots Out - the latter is far superior, a much greater breadth of support across political parties, tremendous organisation, and numerous well-held events up and down the country.

Vote Leave is merely a narrow Tory front, with inferior levels of support and organisation.

But then, the result was announced yesterday by one of the 'Vote Leave' team, so it's no surprise.

Which one is the Judean's Peoples Front?

The John Whittingdale story all makes sense now.

You reckon it was right for BBC to reveal it? I can't see how any credible news organisation could not.

If some guy wants to screw ladies of the night it has nothing to do with me....

Wonder if the Sun would have revealed it if it was a Labour politician or a Premier League footballer.

You bet your ass they would.

It's frankly hilarious that the Sun are trying to tell everyone that they've suddenly discovered some moral decency.

Whittingdale must go. He's been susceptible to blackmail by the press while reforming them and he's not been honest about it to the public or the Prime Minister.

ShahenshahG wrote:You reckon it was right for BBC to reveal it? I can't see how any credible news organisation could not.

I don't see why it's anybody's business really, if he was a client then fair enough but he wasn't, it's no coincidence that the media knew about this in 2014 but it's only now he's an advocate for Vote Leave that it comes out.

That's not the issue Truss. 4 newspapers withheld the story and Whittingdale has direct influence on press regulation. Do you think they were holding it back out of the goodness of their hearts?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:You reckon it was right for BBC to reveal it? I can't see how any credible news organisation could not.

I don't see why it's anybody's business really, if he was a client then fair enough but he wasn't, it's no coincidence that the media knew about this in 2014 but it's only now he's an advocate for Vote Leave that it comes out.

You may remove that tin foil hat, if you like.

Pr4wn wants this guy to go... whilst it was okay for Prescortt to stay while screwing his PS on the desk in his office..

Do me a favor..

Pr4wn wrote:Wonder if the Sun would have revealed it if it was a Labour politician or a Premier League football.

You bet your ass they would.

It's frankly hilarious that the Sun are trying to tell everyone that they've suddenly discovered some moral decency.

Whittingdale must go. He's been susceptible to blackmail by the press while reforming them and he's not been honest about it to the public or the Prime Minister.

The way they have exposed conservative MP's in the past like Grayling and Burley.

Pr4wn wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:You reckon it was right for BBC to reveal it? I can't see how any credible news organisation could not.

I don't see why it's anybody's business really, if he was a client then fair enough but he wasn't, it's no coincidence that the media knew about this in 2014 but it's only now he's an advocate for Vote Leave that it comes out.

You may remove that tin foil hat, if you like.

That's really ironic coming from you.

You're not grasping the argument at all, Truss.

It's the fact that he was responsible for press regulation and reform, yet he was clearly compromised. What he does and who he sees are definitely his business. But he was unable to perform his duties in a balanced and fair way while the papers were sitting on this information.

Have another read and a little think.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:Wonder if the Sun would have revealed it if it was a Labour politician or a Premier League football.

You bet your ass they would.

It's frankly hilarious that the Sun are trying to tell everyone that they've suddenly discovered some moral decency.

Whittingdale must go. He's been susceptible to blackmail by the press while reforming them and he's not been honest about it to the public or the Prime Minister.

The way they have exposed conservative MP's in the past like Grayling and Burley.

True, all perfectly true - but the pertinent point is this bit in bold.

Whittingdale has no power over the press in this country so it's a storm in a tea cup, they have, do and will continue to be able to say whatever they want, it's a complete non story.

What's more pertinent is that the BBC exposed him when he's in the midst of renewing their charter.

Pr4wn wrote:You're not grasping the argument at all, Truss.

It's the fact that he was responsible for press regulation and reform, yet he was clearly compromised. What he does and who he sees are definitely his business. But he was unable to perform his duties in a balanced and fair way while the papers were sitting on this information.

Have another read and a little think.

Ooooh how patronising....

Ruth Kelly was equalities minister even though she thought homosexuality was a sin.....No one cared then..

Think about it...

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Whittingdale has no power over the press in this country so it's a storm in a tea cup, they have, do and will continue to be able to say whatever they want, it's a complete non story.

Aye - but he has the power to push for more stringent regulation and he's unlikely to do that if the paper's are holding something like this over his head. What he did with that prozzie is none of our business but the fact that the papers had the story but decided not to publish it AND he was aware of it means there is a potential conflict of interest and he should never have taken the job.

ShahenshahG wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Whittingdale has no power over the press in this country so it's a storm in a tea cup, they have, do and will continue to be able to say whatever they want, it's a complete non story.

Aye - but he has the power to push for more stringent regulation and he's unlikely to do that if the paper's are holding something like this over his head. What he did with that prozzie is none of our business but the fact that the papers had the story but decided not to publish it AND he was aware of it means there is a potential conflict of interest and he should never have taken the job.

Any Tory is going to be compromised anyway...Because 9/10 of the press is Tory..and they aren't going to want to upset anybody..

Tenuous argument Shah and not up to your usual 6/10 standard.....very tenuous..

The Conservatives gave up trying to enforce more stringent regulation long before Whittingdale took over.

Hero wrote:I'm firmly in the stay camp, but I have to agree with you Duty that the leave campaign has been far better so far in its spin whilst the stay campaign is focusing on the negatives of the other.

Us kiwis and Aussies will remember that the next time you get yourselves into a World war.

The World Wars where over 1.5m Brits died but less than 100k combined Oz/NZ did.....?

Tough as old boots those Aussies...

They are. And my post was a real a-hole thing to say tbh. But auckland's post was dickish and riled me.

Plus I can't even really see what point he was trying to make anyway......

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/14/corbyns-eu-referendum-speech-verdict-rambling-but-rather-special

Poor Jeremy, being bullied into a corner by his own party. Principles be damned.

TopHat24/7 wrote:They are. And my post was a real a-hole thing to say tbh. But auckland's post was dickish and riled me.

Plus I can't even really see what point he was trying to make anyway......

Thats understandable Tophat, FYI it was about turning your backs on your loyal allies.

Still not sure I understand your point with reference to EU ref and our Commonwealth relationships?

Who would be turning their back on whom??

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9668

"YouGov’s latest topline figures for the EU referendum are REMAIN 50%, LEAVE 50%. Looking at the underlying questions, there are a couple of significant movements in favour of LEAVE. Firstly on terrorism, 25% of people now think that Britain would be safer from terrorism if we left the EU (up from 16% back in February) – perhaps an impact from the Brussels terrorist attacks. Secondly trust in David Cameron on the issue of Europe has dropped sharply, from 29% to 21%. In fairness, trust in most of the leave figures (including Boris Johnson) has fallen too – the only person whose figures have increased is Jeremy Corbyn, who with 28% trust is now more trusted on Europe than Cameron."

This referendum is only going one way...

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Hero wrote:I'm firmly in the stay camp, but I have to agree with you Duty that the leave campaign has been far better so far in its spin whilst the stay campaign is focusing on the negatives of the other.

Us kiwis and Aussies will remember that the next time you get yourselves into a World war.

Did you read the bit where I said I'm for staying? My point was that the Remain campaign has been poor for the most part.

The biggest thing the leave campaign has going for it is Boris Johnson, whether you like him or not he knows how to play the media and get attention.

Hero wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Hero wrote:I'm firmly in the stay camp, but I have to agree with you Duty that the leave campaign has been far better so far in its spin whilst the stay campaign is focusing on the negatives of the other.

Us kiwis and Aussies will remember that the next time you get yourselves into a World war.

Did you read the bit where I said I'm for staying? My point was that the Remain campaign has been poor for the most part.

I think that's what Auckland's point is - you're for staying, and as such you're turning your back on the Commonwealth.

Didn't we get into the World Wars because of our ties to Europe? That we wanted to believe in a better one and by fighting as part of it rather than closing our doors and letting them get on with it?

Our nation can do the best thing for Europe this summer - vote leave, cause the EU to collapse, and resurrect the parliamentary democracy of nation states across the continent.

And our nation got into the two World Wars for imperialist reasons, not out of any sense of believing in a better Europe.

I see the Dutch are possibly going to have another referendum, this time on TTIP. Duty, I saw you said a vote to leave would help us avoid TTIP, but personally dont see how that could be the case. I put this link in which I tend to agree with.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/no-we-cant-protect-ourselves-from-ttip-by-leaving-europe-heres-why-a6853876.html

Obviously just the Dutch by themselves wont change things, but surely we need similar movements across EU countries to force some changes(at least) to TTIP.
Why do you think leaving would help us in this regard?

kingjohn7 wrote:I see the Dutch are possibly going to have another referendum, this time on TTIP. Duty, I saw you said a vote to leave would help us avoid TTIP, but personally dont see how that could be the case. I put this link in which I tend to agree with.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/no-we-cant-protect-ourselves-from-ttip-by-leaving-europe-heres-why-a6853876.html

Obviously just the Dutch by themselves wont change things, but surely we need similar movements across EU countries to force some changes(at least) to TTIP.
Why do you think leaving would help us in this regard?

Predominantly because leaving the EU would mean we would have democratic control over our government.

I've seen it espoused a lot by the Remain side recently - oh the Tories will force TTIP on us anyway, so what's the point in fighting it?

The difference is that a person can vote to get the Conservative party out of office if you disagree with them; you can't vote out any one of the European Commissioners.

Looking at parts of the article you linked to:

"In this context, we should be under no illusion that maintaining and enforcing environmental, health and social protection would remain a priority without EU guidance and enforcement." - It depends on what sort of government we have. If these are things you are passionate about, then vote for, and campaign for, a party that places this high on their list of priorities - it shouldn't be up to the EU to do it for us.

"Colloquially known as the ‘Norway option’, this would involve the UK continuing to apply many of the rules of the EU while accepting a much reduced ability to shape and steer them. Under this scenario, the UK would still have to implement all of the changes in EU legislation that derive from TTIP. Yet, we would have a much reduced ability to influence its negotiation." - If we Leave, we won't have a 'Norway option' or a 'Switzerland option', we will have a UK option. And our negotiating stance is far stronger than either of those two countries, for both economic and political reasons.

"The UK is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, supporters of TTIP. Every single one of these new British trade agreements would likely look and sound like a lot like TTIP, with all the most nefarious bits intact. The biggest clue is that our Prime Minister David Cameron claims that TTIP was his idea in the first place, and promised to give it a “rocket boost” after the G20 summit." - The author of this article has confused the 'United Kingdom' with 'David Cameron'. Farage doesn't like TTIP, I can't imagine Corbyn is too keen. Again, this goes back to what I mentioned earlier - you can vote Cameron, or any TTIP supporting lot, out of office, but you can't do the same to a European Commissioner.

"The EU is far from perfect. More than anything, it needs to remember the reasons it exists. Preventing wars and driving up the living standards of all its citizens are chief among them." - That is not the reason for why it exists. It exists to create a United States of Europe.

"If we are to tackle the true global issues, such as climate change, it is not enough to plough a lone furrow." - Correct, we have to work globally to achieve this. And that's globally, not European-lly. And at no point when we work with other countries should we be forced to surrender the sovereignty of our parliament, the supremacy of our courts, or control of our borders to do so - that's just absurd.

You think that UKIP or the Tories are against TTIP? Get out of here...

Thanks for reply Duty. Whilst I agree with much of what you say in theory, I dont see it working in reality.
Yes we can vote out the government, but not till the GE by which time we would already be signed up to TTIP or our version of it if we were out of EU. If we were making our own deal with US when outside EU our position would be much weaker. We would be identified(correctly) as being in desperate need of striking trade deals and so I can imagine our ability to get fair or advantageous terms would be close to zero.
With regards to our enviroment, health etc, yes I agree it shouldnt be up to the EU to do it for us. However I personally feel that if given free reign that the people who run or have run this country would erode these standards a great deal. Is it not 1 of the main drums the Leave campaign have been banging, that our business will be able to flourish without the pesky red tape and regulation of the EU?
If we were never in the EU then yes we would be in a stronger position than Norway or Switzerland to make a deal, bujt we are in and would be leaving. It is inconceivable that we would be able to make a better deal than them-it would totally undermine the EU. The EU would gladly take a short term loss to their business to penalise the UK because it would be more harmful to them to do otherwise.
On the last point, yes we tackle it globally but Europe is our global team(for want of a better word). Europe is a super power alongside the like of US and China. UK whilst respected and able to offer much, it is pretty insignificant in comparison.

Pr4wn wrote:You think that UKIP or the Tories are against TTIP? Get out of here...

UKIP definitely are (only major party to oppose it in their 2015 manifesto, I believe). Tories (under Cameron) are not.

kingjohn7 wrote:Thanks for reply Duty. Whilst I agree with much of what you say in theory, I dont see it working in reality.
Yes we can vote out the government, but not till the GE by which time we would already be signed up to TTIP or our version of it if we were out of EU. If we were making our own deal with US when outside EU our position would be much weaker. We would be identified(correctly) as being in desperate need of striking trade deals and so I can imagine our ability to get fair or advantageous terms would be close to zero.
With regards to our enviroment, health etc, yes I agree it shouldnt be up to the EU to do it for us. However I personally feel that if given free reign that the people who run or have run this country would erode these standards a great deal. Is it not 1 of the main drums the Leave campaign have been banging, that our business will be able to flourish without the pesky red tape and regulation of the EU?
If we were never in the EU then yes we would be in a stronger position than Norway or Switzerland to make a deal, bujt we are in and would be leaving. It is inconceivable that we would be able to make a better deal than them-it would totally undermine the EU. The EU would gladly take a short term loss to their business to penalise the UK because it would be more harmful to them to do otherwise.
On the last point, yes we tackle it globally but Europe is our global team(for want of a better word). Europe is a super power alongside the like of US and China. UK whilst respected and able to offer much, it is pretty insignificant in comparison.

TTIP, or our version, would still take years to agree upon, and it is probable there will be another general election before the whole thing is signed.

Upon leaving the EU, our position is still a strong one - we become the EU's largest export market; the 5th largest economy in the world; members of G7 etc. Still a strong footing upon which our nation can negotiate, and I still feel and think that the EU needs us more than we require them. The political masters of the EU may be happy to take a short-term loss, but I don't imagine the individual businesses who exist in the EU nation states will be pleased to lose out on what they sell to us.

Shedding red tape is indeed one of the main drums the Leave side have been banging. It remains to be seen of what will happen to environmental legislation if we left the EU - I think if we did Leave, there would be another general election within a year, so we might have to wait until then.

And the Commonwealth is our global team. The noble English-speaking peoples of the world, a third of the world's population, covering all six inhabited continents, with a GDP of over $10 trillion.

Chuka Umunna, the former shadow business secretary, told ITV’s Good Morning Britain: “Essentially, those who want us to leave can’t answer the question: ‘Will we be able to have all the benefits that we have in the EU, being part of that big, free trade, single market trading zone if we come out, can you guarantee that?’

“They don’t have an answer to that in the event that we leave. So instead they go to this big conspiracy theory that somehow you have got the country’s biggest unions – so Len McCluskey, the head of Unite, and Dave Prentis, the head of Unison – in cahoots with those well-known socialists at the CBI, the big business organisation, and the IMF’s Christine Lagarde, [and] all of this being orchestrated by Len McCluskey’s new best friend, the Tory chancellor, George Osborne, aided and abetted by President Obama, all campaigning against EU exit.”

Gove's speech today is positively ridiculous. The claims the Remain campaign is treating the public like children but what is more childish than, when presented with facts and forecasts from independent, reputable institutions, shouting "LIAR" without providing any facts of your own.

Pr4wn wrote:Chuka Umunna, the former shadow business secretary, told ITV’s Good Morning Britain: “Essentially, those who want us to leave can’t answer the question: ‘Will we be able to have all the benefits that we have in the EU, being part of that big, free trade, single market trading zone if we come out, can you guarantee that?’

“They don’t have an answer to that in the event that we leave. So instead they go to this big conspiracy theory that somehow you have got the country’s biggest unions – so Len McCluskey, the head of Unite, and Dave Prentis, the head of Unison – in cahoots with those well-known socialists at the CBI, the big business organisation, and the IMF’s Christine Lagarde, [and] all of this being orchestrated by Len McCluskey’s new best friend, the Tory chancellor, George Osborne, aided and abetted by President Obama, all campaigning against EU exit.”

Gove's speech today is positively ridiculous. The claims the Remain campaign is treating the public like children but what is more childish than, when presented with facts and forecasts from independent, reputable institutions, shouting "LIAR" without providing any facts of your own.

It's a re-run of the arguments from the Scottish independence referendum. The No campaign asks sensible questions and gets labelled Project Fear. The Yes campaign makes vague promises of universal wealth and everlasting life and claims the moral highground.

This is a bloke, remember, who argued that all schools should be better than average.