The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

First topic message reminder :

Now it is official (and some guy with a green admin name has ruined the other thread) I shall put this here for you to discuss the referendum.

Pr4wn wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Coxy001 wrote:Those who want to "reclaim our borders" are just racists.

Strange argument.

Vote Remain - have an open border with roughly 500 million people, mostly white, whilst making it harder for migrants from outside the EU (who are mostly not white) to come and work in our country.

Vote Leave - a level-playing field for all.

Quite right. Boris, IDS, Gove and that moron cheat Fox are voting out in support of this noble cause.

You can always spot a UKIP by the 'level playing field' argument. Which is actually the 'trying to cover up I'm a racist bigot' argument.

Not a fan of polling, but latest update:

YouGov have released some fresh EU polling, a batch of five new polls conducted in the last two weeks. The most recent poll, conducted on Wednesday and Thursday, has topline figures of Remain 40%, Leave 37% and the three polls before that also showed Remain with a small lead. While YouGov have been typically showing a very tight race, their 2016 polls up to now have shown small leads for LEAVE, so four YouGov polls in a row showing REMAIN ahead suggests some movement. It will be interesting to see if that is reflected in other polling, and whether movement continues in that direction.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

TopHat24/7 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:No not bigoted. Just capable of looking at both sides to an argument - you see I may crave independence but can still reason about what Britain ONCE had. And the United side that first catapulted them to success were United youth products in the shape of Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Neville brothers that made up more than half of the team for about a decade - now it is crammed with imports and not exactly shining.

Except you're not seeing 'both sides', you're picking a handful of things you don't like, all of which (you think) can be blamed on jonny foreigner, and despite them having little or nothing to do with the EU you're using them as an anti-EU argument.

It's laughable.

No you are forgetting what I said earlier. I am undecided. These are points that those that have decided will see as being pertinent whether you like them or not. Others will go for toughening up on border control etc.

You are also undecided are you not so lets hear your reasons as to why that is? What reasons would you vote out for?

How are any of the points you raised either to do with the EU or in supoort of leaving?? They're your arguments, how about trying to sustain them?

I have said before those are reasons that people will say for opting out. You say you are undecided though you sound very decided to me - you are opting in unless you have reasons for doubt but god knows what they are as you haven't said.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:No not bigoted. Just capable of looking at both sides to an argument - you see I may crave independence but can still reason about what Britain ONCE had. And the United side that first catapulted them to success were United youth products in the shape of Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Neville brothers that made up more than half of the team for about a decade - now it is crammed with imports and not exactly shining.

Except you're not seeing 'both sides', you're picking a handful of things you don't like, all of which (you think) can be blamed on jonny foreigner, and despite them having little or nothing to do with the EU you're using them as an anti-EU argument.

It's laughable.

No you are forgetting what I said earlier. I am undecided. These are points that those that have decided will see as being pertinent whether you like them or not. Others will go for toughening up on border control etc.

You are also undecided are you not so lets hear your reasons as to why that is? What reasons would you vote out for?

How are any of the points you raised either to do with the EU or in supoort of leaving?? They're your arguments, how about trying to sustain them?

I have said before those are reasons that people will say for opting out. You say you are undecided though you sound very decided to me - you are opting in unless you have reasons for doubt but god knows what they are as you haven't said.

Eh? You make no sense whatsoever.

Basically he wasn't paying attention when you posted your reasons for or against as he hadn't yet seen the parallels between the independence campaign and the Leave campaign. But now he has and he sees that you aren't blustering he's trying to shift the blame on you for not making your position clear rather than bothering to read up on things that are a little too complex for him.

ShahenshahG wrote:Basically he wasn't paying attention when you posted your reasons for or against as he hadn't yet seen the parallels between the independence campaign and the Leave campaign. But now he has and he sees that you aren't blustering he's trying to shift the blame on you for not making your position clear rather than bothering to read up on things that are a little too complex for him.

Not at all.

Earlier posted I was undecided. Understand?

Tophat agreed and said he/she was undecided. Although to read the posts I find that impossible to believe as anyone posting reasons for voting to exit he/she flies into an undignified rage for what reason I cannot understand. However the vote goes it does not spell Armageddon.

Now because Tophat is so stoic in attack reason for exit that people may see as valid reasons I am genuinely puzzled as to why Tophat is undecided. It seems clear in his/her posts that their mind is made up.

Rage? You clearly weren't here for the Champagne_Socialist days!

My made isn't totally made up, but its heavily leaning towards in, for reasons I think I've outlined previously/made clear.

You claim to be undecided but came up with a bunch of nonesense arguments ostensibly for 'LEAVE' which you couldn't support or susatin. I didn't attack 'LEAVE' I attacked your bigotry.

Duty281 wrote:

Coxy001 wrote:Those who want to "reclaim our borders" are just racists.

Strange argument.

Vote Remain - have an open border with roughly 500 million people, mostly white, whilst making it harder for migrants from outside the EU (who are mostly not white) to come and work in our country.

Vote Leave - a level-playing field for all.

Strange? Jesus.

"Mostly white". Showing your UKIP colours here - what difference does it make if they're white, black or bloody blue? Bloody bigoted racist.

"A level playing field for all" - meaning you don't want any foreigners coming here because you're too much of an idiot to accept multicultralism. If people turn up, pay their taxes then I couldn't really give a monkeys.

Can you just come out and say "I'm a racist, plain and simple. I have no factually based points to make as there is 0%, yes 0% insight and proof as to how the UK will fare if it were to be outside the EU."

TopHat24/7 wrote:Rage? You clearly weren't here for the Champagne_Socialist days!

My made isn't totally made up, but its heavily leaning towards in, for reasons I think I've outlined previously/made clear.

You claim to be undecided but came up with a bunch of nonesense arguments ostensibly for 'LEAVE' which you couldn't support or susatin.  I didn't attack 'LEAVE' I attacked your bigotry.

I have a recommendation for you. Don't chuck accusations around about posters you have never met.

I have worked for years in an environment containing fellow employees from all nationalities, creeds and colours and have got on swimmingly with them and never been called a bigot. I think they are better qualified to judge me than you.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Rage? You clearly weren't here for the Champagne_Socialist days!

My made isn't totally made up, but its heavily leaning towards in, for reasons I think I've outlined previously/made clear.

You claim to be undecided but came up with a bunch of nonesense arguments ostensibly for 'LEAVE' which you couldn't support or susatin.  I didn't attack 'LEAVE' I attacked your bigotry.

I have a recommendation for you. Don't chuck accusations around about posters you have never met.

I have worked for years in an environment containing fellow employees from all nationalities, creeds and colours and have got on swimmingly with them and never been called a bigot. I think they are better qualified to judge me than you.

Give a man a mask and see his true face

Okay folks carry on debating and accusing I am not hanging around for character assassination.

Not accusing you of anything Except that you're giving no good reason for the EU exit at all. That was just light hearted jab at the I've got a black friend defense.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Rage? You clearly weren't here for the Champagne_Socialist days!

My made isn't totally made up, but its heavily leaning towards in, for reasons I think I've outlined previously/made clear.

You claim to be undecided but came up with a bunch of nonesense arguments ostensibly for 'LEAVE' which you couldn't support or susatin.  I didn't attack 'LEAVE' I attacked your bigotry.

I have a recommendation for you. Don't chuck accusations around about posters you have never met.

I have worked for years in an environment containing fellow employees from all nationalities, creeds and colours and have got on swimmingly with them and never been called a bigot. I think they are better qualified to judge me than you.

But the views you have set out are clearly bigoted or, at best, narrow minded. Hence why you have been totally unable to support or sustain them under questioning. "Everything that I think has ever gone wrong with the UK is the fault of Jonny Foreigner". That you've kept such views guarded from fellow employees is sensible but not a get out of jail free card.

ShahenshahG wrote:Not accusing you of anything Except that you're giving no good reason for the EU exit at all. That was just light hearted jab at the I've got a black friend defense.

For the third or fourth time I am undecided. The posts I have posted were reasons people may well use as reasons for voting to exit.

I am not of the mentality of that just because a current situation is in place that it is necessarily the best option. Some people are blinded by fear to vote for change because they are told how awful the unknown is. People like that would never have seen us go into space I take it. Being in the EU is no guarantee of great wealth - look at what a naff currency the EURO is for that and the economic stresses of Greece who are in the EU.

For staying in we can point to safety in numbers, maintaining the status quo and keeping better relations with Europe.

So as you see I am undecided. Shame that viewpoint ends up me being labelled a bigot but there you go. I'll tell my Polish, Spanish, Nigerian, Czech, Romanian, Hungarian, Australian, English, Irish and Welsh work colleagues that - it will make them laugh.

No. Being undecided doesn't make you a bigot/narrow-minded. Listing off a ream of perceived issues/fatalities of the UK economy and blaming them all (largely erroneously) on foreign influence/intervention on the other hand, does.

And stop hiding behind this pathetic "I was just giving other people's reasons" excuse. That's bullsh!t and everyone can see it. Undecided or not those were YOUR thoughts you put forward as to what YOU perceived has gone wrong and why.

TopHat24/7 wrote:No. Being undecided doesn't make you a bigot/narrow-minded.  Listing off a ream of perceived issues/fatalities of the UK economy and blaming them all (largely erroneously) on foreign influence/intervention on the other hand, does.

And stop hiding behind this pathetic "I was just giving other people's reasons" excuse.  That's bullsh!t and everyone can see it. Undecided or not those were YOUR thoughts you put forward as to what YOU perceived has gone wrong and why.

You believe what you want to believe. But people here can see that I am not the one here throwing around insults. I am done here anyway.

I am not believing. I am interpreting what you have clearly written, and have tried but failed to back yourself out of since.

As you can say, it is perfectly clear to all on here.

I think they can see that you entered a debate without knowing anything past the surface impressions created by a media you pillory when its against something you don't like and whose sensationalist headlines/bylines you adopt when it's something that you're neutral/in favour of. I think Tophat is sticking the knife in a bit when he accuses you of bigotry but certainly you're guilty of ignorance.

Well put, Shah. I will wind my neck in re the 'bigot' comments, but the ignorant/narrow-minded is accurate based on what's been said here.

On the subject of migration / immigration, just a few things to think about for those saying, "as long as they pay their taxes and abide by our laws, then its all fine".

How long have we been reading / watching news stories about lack of affordable housing, overstretched hospitals, schools, congested road networks and overcrowded / inadequate public transport?

Last time I saw a news article on this subject, it was estimated net migration figures were around 300,000 more people coming into the UK than leaving...and that was just the legal / recorded ones.

I don't know about anyone else, but I for one wonder how long we can sustain those levels.

True the government has given the green light for new housing projects all over the place (there are quite a few springing up quite close to where I live) but unless the rest of the local infrastructure is upgraded to cope with the increased population, I don't foresee a happy future.

The UK is one of the smaller European countries, but has one of the highest population densities. Leaving aside our national wealth / economic performance, there is only so much land available for housing...and already far too many new housing developments are being built on known floodplains, with predictable consequences.

In a nutshell (or TL:DR if you prefer) you can't fit a quart into a pint pot.

I would hope that leaving the EU will enable this, or future governments to get a grip on immigration - regardless of where people are coming from - and allow them to divert more resources to fixing our infrastructure issues.

The fraction of UK land that has been developed/built upon is absoltely miniscule. Something like sub-5%.

It's a common misconception.

The great myth of urban Britain

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096

However, schools in particular are stretched beyond breaking point in many areas

More tax income could provide more teachers....

Using less consultants would probably make a bigger difference at the mo to the coffers without necessarily having to raise tax to fund it.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/mar/12/eu-workers-deported-earning-less-35000-employees-americans-australians

Thank you, oh great European Union.

Duty281 wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/mar/12/eu-workers-deported-earning-less-35000-employees-americans-australians

Thank you, oh great European Union.

Ah yes, all the fault of the terrible EU....

ShahenshahG wrote:Using less consultants would probably make a bigger difference at the mo to the coffers without necessarily having to raise tax to fund it.

Yip. Wastage on management in the public sector is beyond shocking.

Can't remember which firm it was recently, but they need to turnaround performance and improve efficiences and did it but aggressively cutting the middle-management bods. Not the 'on the ground' workers, not the top level execs, the fat gut of the organisation. UK public sector take note....

You know something's wrong when Duty is quoting the Guardian......

TopHat24/7 wrote:You know something's wrong when Duty is quoting the Guardian......

I quite like the Guardian, my dear fellow.

Exellent article written by Boris Johnson today

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12192893/Americans-would-never-accept-EU-restrictions-so-why-should-we.html

"There is no country in the world that defends its own sovereignty with such hysterical vigilance as the United States of America. This is a nation born from its glorious refusal to accept overseas control. Almost two and a half centuries ago the American colonists rose up and violently asserted the principle that they – and they alone – should determine the government of America, and not George III or his ministers. To this day the Americans refuse to kneel to almost any kind of international jurisdiction. Alone of Western nations, the US declines to accept that its citizens can be subject to the rulings of the International Criminal Court in The Hague. They have not even signed up to the Convention on the Law of the Sea. Can you imagine the Americans submitting their democracy to the kind of regime that we have in the EU?

Think of Nafta – the North Atlantic Free Trade Agreement – that links the US with Canada and Mexico. Suppose it were constituted on the lines of the EU, with a commission and a parliament and a court of justice. Would the Americans knuckle under – to a Nafta commission and parliament generating about half their domestic law? Would they submit to a Nafta court of justice – supreme over all US institutions – and largely staffed by Mexicans and Canadians whom the people of the US could neither appoint nor remove? No way. The idea is laughable, and completely alien to American traditions. So why is it essential for Britain to comply with a system that the Americans would themselves reject out of hand? Is it not a blatant case of “Do as I say, but not as I do”?"

For me its politics not economics that should be the main talking point in the referendum.  Economic prosperity is uncertain either way, how the eu develops politically is far more concerning.

"Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin.

Has also to be said some of the comments on this thread have been pathetic ( looking specifically at coxy001).

Wouldn't worry about Coxy...

You aren't at war with Europe mate....It should be about whether the people are better off in or out..

Out hasn't been able to provide any case yet..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Wouldn't worry about Coxy...

You aren't at war with Europe mate....It should be about whether the people are better off in or out..

Out hasn't been able to provide any case yet..

For me its about liberty/sovereignty than economics, as the eu is more of a political entity than just a trading bloc.  You cannot judge whether we will be better off in or out unless we do in fact leave.  The economy will fluctuate whether we are in or out the eu.  There are prosperous countries outside the eu so it is reasonable to think we stand a decent chance at doing well.  Anyone who wants specifics vote leave, and then find out.

But for me economics  is a moot point.  Its like if I was offered a huge pay rise on condition of lower working standards, longer working hours, tougher productivity demands, etc.  Would I be better off financially, no doubt, but the cost would be beyond just financial gains.  Economics of course has a factor but it should not be the primary reason of the debate, whether you choose to leave or stay.

The out campaign can’t be specific on what it looks like on leaving because its impossible to do so without actually leaving and opening negotiations, but imo they need to focus more on why they want to leave, what the eu/euzone is like now, how its moving politically forward, and what effects it is having in terms  of democracy/sovereignty and even mass immigration etc. (yes I know some here have called these “claptrap” issues, which again I think are pathetic responses to genuine concerns people have)

I also think “rule nothing out” Cameron and the government should be the ones who should have made plans for EU exit as a contingency.  They had till the end of 2017 for the referendum to take place so its not as if they were pushed for time.  If leave was really such a bad thing how responsible is it then of our government to put the country in jeopardy if that really is the case?

I think we will end up staying but even if we do somehow leave we will still have this inept government, but at least we have the opportunity of kicking them out every 5 years unlike the eu politicians should we stay, but maybe should just do away with the british government altogether, if we as a country no longer care about these things what really is the point?

TopHat24/7 wrote:Rage? You clearly weren't here for the Champagne_Socialist days!

My made isn't totally made up, but its heavily leaning towards in, for reasons I think I've outlined previously/made clear.

You claim to be undecided but came up with a bunch of nonesense arguments ostensibly for 'LEAVE' which you couldn't support or susatin.  I didn't attack 'LEAVE' I attacked your bigotry.

Just because people are concerned about huge waves of asylum seekers coming in to the country and a year on year increase in net migration does not make them bigots.  That is the accusation that all hippy lefty types like to level at people who have such viewpoints.  So glad Labour are not in power (sadly they are in Wales!) when everyone was brainwashed into believing that mass immigration was such a wonderful thing and if you didn't agree you are racist and a horrible person that must be patronised and spoken down to by smelly and scruffily dressed lefties (many with beards).  

Vote Out!

That's the difference Volcan....For "You" it's about sovereignty where for me it isn't about me...

It's about guaranteeing peoples jobs and quality of life for their families...As much as we can anyway..

EU exit can't promise any kind of secure future..... whereas if we stay as we are at least we know the score.....

When it comes to the economy and job security...

I'll  stick with the devil I know..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:That's the difference Volcan....For "You" it's about sovereignty where for me it isn't about me...

It's about guaranteeing peoples jobs and quality of life for their families...As much as we can anyway..

EU exit can't promise any kind of secure future..... whereas if we stay as we are at least we know the score.....

When it comes to the economy and job security...

I'll  stick with the devil I know..

If everyone thinks like that truss (no offence meant) nothing will ever change for the better.

Volcanicash wrote:If everyone thinks like that truss (no offence meant) nothing will ever change for the better.

Not strictly true though, sometimes it is better to work from a position to actively improve the "Devil you know" with willing partners, rather than hitting the re-set button due to frustration.

100 days to go, everything looking grand.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12193963/EU-referendum-Exclusive-Telegraph-poll-says-Leave-campaign-most-likely-to-win-in-June.html

And don't forget the Dutch are having a little vote on April 6 as well - they're fully expected to stick two fingers (or the Dutch equivalent!) up to the EU.

Mochyn du wrote:Just because people are concerned about huge waves of asylum seekers coming in to the country and a year on year increase in net migration does not make them bigots.  That is the accusation that all hippy lefty types like to level at people who have such viewpoints.  So glad Labour are not in power (sadly they are in Wales!) when everyone was brainwashed into believing that mass immigration was such a wonderful thing and if you didn't agree you are racist and a horrible person that must be patronised and spoken down to by smelly and scruffily dressed lefties (many with beards).  

Vote Out!

You illustrate the high probability of your inherent racism with comments like this . Not a great way to make people accept any argument you might make.

A debate on the EU, hosted by the Guardian, took place tonight in front of an audience of 2,000.

According to an online poll by the Guardian of over 3,000 voters, 58% thought Farage was most impressive, 19% for Clegg, 16% for Johnson, and 7% for Leadsom (a Tory MP who backs Leave).

Excellent for Leave.

Volcanicash wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Wouldn't worry about Coxy...

You aren't at war with Europe mate....It should be about whether the people are better off in or out..

Out hasn't been able to provide any case yet..

But for me economics  is a moot point.  Its like if I was offered a huge pay rise on condition of lower working standards, longer working hours, tougher productivity demands, etc.  Would I be better off financially, no doubt, but the cost would be beyond just financial gains.  Economics of course has a factor but it should not be the primary reason of the debate, whether you choose to leave or stay.

Quite an ironic post.

Mochyn du wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Rage? You clearly weren't here for the Champagne_Socialist days!

My made isn't totally made up, but its heavily leaning towards in, for reasons I think I've outlined previously/made clear.

You claim to be undecided but came up with a bunch of nonesense arguments ostensibly for 'LEAVE' which you couldn't support or susatin.  I didn't attack 'LEAVE' I attacked your bigotry.

Just because people are concerned about huge waves of asylum seekers coming in to the country and a year on year increase in net migration does not make them bigots.  That is the accusation that all hippy lefty types like to level at people who have such viewpoints.  So glad Labour are not in power (sadly they are in Wales!) when everyone was brainwashed into believing that mass immigration was such a wonderful thing and if you didn't agree you are racist and a horrible person that must be patronised and spoken down to by smelly and scruffily dressed lefties (many with beards).  

Vote Out!

Whom are non-EU and therefore totally irrelevant to this debate. But well done for trying!

Funnily enough, the government have "cracked down" on workers in this country being able to stay if they are earning under a threshold (possibly £32k). Would be wonderful if we did not already have a shortage of teachers, one that is plugged by many Canadians and Australians who will no longer be able to stay because no one is gonna start paying them £32k.

Think the impact will be bigger in bar work to be honest......l

Still, many can get legacy visas etc.

The actual figure is £35k Dolphin, which will make the problems in certain industries be felt even more severely.

I will be voting to stay in the EU based on my disdain for the people of the UK.  The general public is becoming more mean spirited and anti-humanist, and the likes of the torries can't help but give us the unequal society we asked for.

To counter this we need the EU to force us to keep things like workers rights, human rights, measures to tackle climate change and all the other wonderful things only more a progressive and social justice orientated mindset can give us.

I hope the UK looses almost all its ability to govern itself  and that we are forced into the "horrors" of what the EU wants to give us.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Think the impact will be bigger in bar work to be honest......l

Still, many can get legacy visas etc.

Certainly, the Walkabout chain of bars has raised concerns over their staff.

McLaren wrote:I will be voting to stay in the EU based on my disdain for the people of the UK.  The general public is becoming more mean spirited and anti-humanist, and the likes of the torries can't help but give us the unequal society we asked for.

To counter this we need the EU to force us to keep things like workers rights, human rights, measures to tackle climate change and all the other wonderful things only more a progressive and social justice orientated mindset can give us.

I hope the UK looses almost all its ability to govern itself  and that we are forced into the "horrors" of what the EU wants to give us.

Stop fishing Mac! I agree with you re. the increase in mean spirited behaviours but I don't think the EU is all good. FWIW, I'll almost certainly be voting to stay in as well. I can't help thinking that in an increasingly 'small' World where people are integrating more and more, to become isolationist and 'we're better independent' is pretty small-minded and silly. We'd be better advised to agitate for change within the EU. I can understand the arguments for getting out though.

Navy, not fishing at all.  That is my main reason for voting to stay.  I like having a human rights convention and being part of a political union that aims to tackle climate change.  An isolated UK could easily end up abandoning 50 years of progression.

The UK has entered the state that the US has been for quite some time, the people are voting for right wing governments with policies that will harm those voting for them.  It seems that the people of the UK will take getting small minded immigration policies through even if that comes with cuts to benefits and other social welfare.

Edit: In simpler terms I see the EU as a vital buffer to UK subjecting itself to full on right wing policies.