V2 WWC 3rd/4th Place Playoff

As the V2 WWC draws to a close and we eagerly (I said eagerly dammit!) anticipate Monday's final, the small matter of 3rd & 4th Place must be settled

Please vote for the wrestler you believe has generated the best work in the past 12-18 months

Remember for the 2nd round onwards only 1 vote per group is permitted

Please leave a comment as to who you have voted for and why to help facilitate discussion

The group will be closed at 23.00 tonight and no votes will be counted past that point

The wrestler/team that recieves the most votes will progress in to the V2 WWC Final! Also the runners up in both groups will be entered into the 3rd place playoff held on Thursday

Happy WWC-ing  

Easy choice, has to be Sasha.

Voting Sasha is voting wrong

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Voting Sasha is voting wrong

Is that because her big matches are consistanly to a higher standard or that she can cut her own promos?

I would rather watch the Royal Rumble triple threat again before any of Sasha's matches, but then I would rather watch Sashas big matches before any more of Brocks.

If I were paying to see only one the Lesnar would win by a landslide, but thats purely because you might never get the chance again.

Brock Lesnar is all about the here and now, whereas Sasha is all about the future.

Tough call, but I gotta go with my girl Sasha.

I know it was said in a previous round, maybe even by Samo who alludes to it above, but Sasha Banks is 23. And, I think that is really something I have to keep in mind because I look at talents like Zack Sabre Jr, Will Ospreay and Fenix and think they are amazing at their age, but I hold them against yardsticks like Okada (himself only 28) and AJ Styles and think they can still progress.

Sasha Banks doesn't have that female wrestling equivalent, an older wrestler she can be benchmarked against. At 23 I argue that she doesn't just look like one of the best female wrestlers in the world, but IMO holds her own against the young men I've just listed.

I've judged mostly on who I'd pay to see in the ring. And for me too, that would be Brock, because Brock is Brock and he is unique. But, rules are made to be broken, who do I think deserves this more, Sasha Banks.

You can't vote for her cos she's young.

House: one, not true. Two, promos are about presenting your character and your feud. 1000 of Banks' words don't do that like Lesnar. Everything about how he presents himself is an immense skill, and one no one else in WWE has. 

Brock is the best thing in wrestling. He's a perfect entity. He's the biggest heel and the biggest face. And that's about more than WWE's placement of him, he absolutely nails everything he does. 

Sasha is great and I voted her over Rollins. The match she lost the title to Bayley was amazing, but I preferred the Rumble trip threat and before the fact I preferred both Taker matches to Sasha's best work, a trip threat is much more difficult to get to that level. 

And Sasha's four horsewoman hug was NXT being so self indulging and her completely betraying her character.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:You can't vote for her cos she's young.

I'm voting for her because she's not just been involved in 1 of the greatest WWE matches of all time, but I think she probably has candidates for 3 of the top 5 WWE women's matches of all time this year.

I'm remarking that what she has achieved already is quite incredible, as in wrestling terms, at her age, she'd very much be perceived as a rookie still.

Also interesting to consider that Lesnar has been given the push and all the tools to succeed: The booking, the manager, not having to cut his own promos. So he's performing to what is expected of him.

When NXT was developed, I doubt as much emphasis was going to be on the womens division. It's through sheer hard work and talent that Banks/Bayley got themselves to a point where they main evented a PPV. I'd argue that Banks has worked harder to earn the reputation that she has.

Prometheus wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:You can't vote for her cos she's young.

I'm voting for her because she's not just been involved in 1 of the greatest WWE matches of all time, but I think she probably has candidates for 3 of the top 5 WWE women's matches of all time this year.

I'm remarking that what she has achieved already is quite incredible, as in wrestling terms, at her age, she'd very much be perceived as a rookie still.

Opinion wise, I think the second Bayley match is HUGELY overrated.

I don't think her top 5 matches in this timeframe would match Brock's. And I think that before adding the absolute importance of Brock delivering; Brock Lesnar is arguably their most important wrestler

psycho-gooner wrote:Also interesting to consider that Lesnar has been given the push and all the tools to succeed: The booking, the manager, not having to cut his own promos. So he's performing to what is expected of him.

When NXT was developed, I doubt as much emphasis was going to be on the womens division. It's through sheer hard work and talent that Banks/Bayley got themselves to a point where they main evented a PPV. I'd argue that Banks has worked harder to earn the reputation that she has.

I think Banks has been given a platform that many in NXT would want. And I think Lesnar has to consistently meet the huge expectations on him. He has to be over beyond his manager, as a manager like Heyman could easily overshadow him, and that not delivering your own promos makes it extremely hard to show your character. Lesnar isn't protected by Heyman, he has to do the tiny things that I'm not sure anyone else on the roster can match him on.

And, really, is that all he's doing? I think all he's expected to be is a big winning machine. He does so much beyond his expectations in my opinion. He does so many things in and out of matches that he doesnt "need" to do to justify his place, and justifying a push is very hard to do as Roman constantly shows. But he goes above and beyond that by being a phenomenon at all times.

He even made a segment where a car was wrecked on Raw into some amazing TV, which I havent seen in years.

I look for different things to Prom and House in matches, which is down to a like of different style, Banks probably fulfils more in certain fields but cannot match Lesnar in others

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

Prometheus wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:You can't vote for her cos she's young.

I'm voting for her because she's not just been involved in 1 of the greatest WWE matches of all time, but I think she probably has candidates for 3 of the top 5 WWE women's matches of all time this year.

I'm remarking that what she has achieved already is quite incredible, as in wrestling terms, at her age, she'd very much be perceived as a rookie still.

Opinion wise, I think the second Bayley match is HUGELY overrated.

I don't think her top 5 matches in this timeframe would match Brock's. And I think that before adding the absolute importance of Brock delivering; Brock Lesnar is arguably their most important wrestler

I totally agree with the Bayley match. I didn't get it, but I don't really get Bayley. I'm not saying it was a bad match, but I'd seen such rave reviews before I watched it that I expected more.

Back to back, what do we have for top 5 matches?
Banks vs Bayley vs Charlotte vs Lynch (NXT TakeOver: Rival)
Banks vs Charlotte (NXT Live)
Banks vs Lynch (NXT TakeOver: Unstoppable)
Banks vs Bayley (NXT TakeOver: Brooklyn)
Banks vs Bayley (NXT TakeOver: Respect)

Lesnar vs Cena (SummerSlam 2014)
Lesnar vs Cena vs Rollins (Royal Rumble)
Lesnar vs Cena vs Reigns (WrestleMania)
Lesnar vs Undertaker (Summerslam 2015)
Lesnar vs Undertaker (HiaC)

I just don't have the memory to remember all these matches accurately enough to give each a rating. And I don't have the time to watch them again (but with 4 days of my Network left, it is tempting). So, here's my rough thinking.

The weakest matches of the 5

This may be controversial, but I'm going to say that Mania was Brock's weakest of those. We had a very one-sided match, and when Reigns was just starting his come-back we had the cash-in. I'm not saying that it was overall a bad match, it was certainly a special moment, but because of the story being told what could have been an excellent match was interrupted.

Like Dolph, I'm not as over on the Bayley matches as others and I'd say that the Iron Woman match was for me just a bit long.

Having said these are the weakest of the 5, I'd watch both matches again in a heartbeat. I'm not really willing right now to say one was worse than the other.

The strongest matches of the 5

I love the Rumble match. I usually hate the 3-way matches as they often equate to one of the three being outside the ring for an extended time, milking an injury and then jumping to their feet to make a 3 count. This flowed. This was excellent. I'd watch this match again in a heartbeat. Nearly a year on, my biggest question is, was Rollins the man who made this match so great?

I love the Banks match too. I think this was the best women's match I've ever seen. I don't remember any real botches in this match, I thought the storytelling was great. If you watch a single women's match ever, I'd have no trouble recommending this.

Again, I just can't pick between them on their best matches. Very different, but equally good.

The others
I'm in a bit of a quandary here. I really like Brock / Cena and I love the women's 4-way, which is when I first sat up and took notice. I honestly, honestly find it too close to call. I have questions in my head like "how many times did Lesnar blade and did he need to do that?". "Is Lesnar working with a veteran like The Undertaker, giving Brock an easier match than Banks working with Charlotte?" Or is "The Undertaker past it and Brock getting 4* matches out of him an achievement?"

I really do think I'd have to go back and watch again to clearly rank them.

I think however I rationalise it, it is the little things in my head like whether Brock's matches are too much based around suplex-city in 2015? Or how much should we give Sasha Banks credit for almost coming from nowhere and in a year main eventing NXT tours and shows? But, I can really see how someone would vote the other way. What I do think is that in the way WWE is going right now, Banks won't make the QFs next year, and that is a bit sad.

Oh you're not wrong, and I'm not really saying anyone is wrong, but there were a lot of dismissive arguments and im as much playing devil's advocate as really pressing my own point.

To me, Lesnar is the most exciting thing in wrestling. He is fantastic at some things that I'm not sure any of WWE's modern wrestlers, newer breed etc do at all well. You can see that he was a younger wrestler in a different era. Of the full timers, I think only Orton really can do some of the intangibles that he does, and he has links to that age in that era too.

I genuinely don't even think this is a competition. Brock Lesnar is by far and away the best thing in wrestling right now. I think it's crazy that he's not even in the final considering he pretty much never does anything wrong. He's fantastic at looking great but does actually do a really good job at making his opponents look good as well, Reigns hasn't looked as good as he did in the Wrestlemania main event despite the fact that it was a squash match for most of it, Seth Rollins hit heights he hasn't reached again in the Royal Rumble triple threat. Just look how bad Undertaker looked against the Wyatts compared to against Brock Lesnar. He's the most exciting thing and he's supremely talented. When people talk about getting the little things right, Brock Lesnar is the best in the business right now at doing that. For all his protection and good booking, it's Lesnar himself who really sells it. Even if you take away Paul Heyman, I'd still say Brock Lesnar is the top guy. He's so believable, his matches for nearly 2 years now have been on a totally different level to anything else WWE has produced in that time. 

I don't even think Sasha Banks has been great in WWE, never mind been better than Brock Lesnar, I didn't watch too much NXT, but I saw the biggest matches and I was actually pretty underwhelmed. I feel like the only way those matches can be considered on par is if you're looking at women's wrestling at a different standard to the men's. I think if Banks was male, she'd be a below average wrestler. I especially think she's come up to the main roster she has been completely forgettable. Even when there has been limited exposure on her, she's not really done much with the time she has had. Her matches have been slow and stilted for me. 

Brock Lesnar all the way for me, it's not even close.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Oh you're not wrong, and I'm not really saying anyone is wrong, but there were a lot of dismissive arguments and im as much playing devil's advocate as really pressing my own point.

To me, Lesnar is the most exciting thing in wrestling. He is fantastic at some things that I'm not sure any of WWE's modern wrestlers, newer breed etc do at all well. You can see that he was a younger wrestler in a different era. Of the full timers, I think only Orton really can do some of the intangibles that he does, and he has links to that age in that era too.

Just to pick up on the Orton comparison. I think one thing Brock has hugely to his advantage is that he's not over exposed.

Anyone appearing week in, week out on Raw is going to suffer from lack of creative input to their character, promos and matches. By making very few appearances (and by costing a fortune when he does), Brock means that WWE creative has to make him work when he works.

I'm not saying that as a negative against Brock, its a positive, if anything. But he'd be brought down a notch if he had to do what everyone else on the roster does.

Why do I bring Orton into this? Well for me he's the perfect example of a man who'd work much, much better wrestling a handful of times a year. Orton can bring it. He is probably the best wrestler in WWE (or at least he'd be on a very short short list). But, almost because he is so good, he phones it in a lot. The difference between Orton working a big match with an opponent he works well with and Orton working a mid-card match on Raw is the difference between me being on the edge of my seat and falling asleep.

So, in my head Orton suffers. Because of the sheer volume of what he does, I mark him down. Whereas if he just wrestled upper card in PPVs and had the occasional other outing, well his character might still not be so strong, but his matches would all feel much, much better in relative isolation.

Crimey wrote:I genuinely don't even think this is a competition. Brock Lesnar is by far and away the best thing in wrestling right now. I think it's crazy that he's not even in the final considering he pretty much never does anything wrong. He's fantastic at looking great but does actually do a really good job at making his opponents look good as well, Reigns hasn't looked as good as he did in the Wrestlemania main event despite the fact that it was a squash match for most of it, Seth Rollins hit heights he hasn't reached again in the Royal Rumble triple threat. Just look how bad Undertaker looked against the Wyatts compared to against Brock Lesnar. He's the most exciting thing and he's supremely talented. When people talk about getting the little things right, Brock Lesnar is the best in the business right now at doing that. For all his protection and good booking, it's Lesnar himself who really sells it. Even if you take away Paul Heyman, I'd still say Brock Lesnar is the top guy. He's so believable, his matches for nearly 2 years now have been on a totally different level to anything else WWE has produced in that time. 

I don't even think Sasha Banks has been great in WWE, never mind been better than Brock Lesnar, I didn't watch too much NXT, but I saw the biggest matches and I was actually pretty underwhelmed. I feel like the only way those matches can be considered on par is if you're looking at women's wrestling at a different standard to the men's. I think if Banks was male, she'd be a below average wrestler. I especially think she's come up to the main roster she has been completely forgettable. Even when there has been limited exposure on her, she's not really done much with the time she has had. Her matches have been slow and stilted for me. 

Brock Lesnar all the way for me, it's not even close.

I'd genuinely hate to have your taste in wrestling

I'm not going to say that Crimey is right, I don't think he is, but I do feel there is a good chance we will find out by this time next year if Banks has peaked. The factors that I think could lead to that:
- In NXT there was more time to prepare matches. More touring, doing WWE promotions and even having match times cut because another segment has run long are all factors that Banks has not had to contend with previously.
- There is a limited talent pool of female wrestlers in WWE. At 23 a wrestler should still be learning their craft from those around them. Who does Banks have on the WWE roster to push her to better and better performances.
- Lost in the shuffle. Vince has already shown he sees more marketability in pushing Ric Flair's daughter than he does the more talented Sasha Banks. There is no guarantee Banks wont be the next Bo Dallas or Adam Rose.

If Banks has peaked, I think her peak is of sufficient height for her to be strongly considered for 3rd place this year. Whatever happens, I really can't class her as a below average wrestler, but I do have concerns that she might not keep rising next year.

Its all well and good to say everything Lesnar has done has been amazing, but you need to remember he hasnt done very much. A couple of great matches a year will only get you so far in my book compared to the guys who do great work week in and week out.

Dr Gregory House MD wrote:

Crimey wrote:I genuinely don't even think this is a competition. Brock Lesnar is by far and away the best thing in wrestling right now. I think it's crazy that he's not even in the final considering he pretty much never does anything wrong. He's fantastic at looking great but does actually do a really good job at making his opponents look good as well, Reigns hasn't looked as good as he did in the Wrestlemania main event despite the fact that it was a squash match for most of it, Seth Rollins hit heights he hasn't reached again in the Royal Rumble triple threat. Just look how bad Undertaker looked against the Wyatts compared to against Brock Lesnar. He's the most exciting thing and he's supremely talented. When people talk about getting the little things right, Brock Lesnar is the best in the business right now at doing that. For all his protection and good booking, it's Lesnar himself who really sells it. Even if you take away Paul Heyman, I'd still say Brock Lesnar is the top guy. He's so believable, his matches for nearly 2 years now have been on a totally different level to anything else WWE has produced in that time. 

I don't even think Sasha Banks has been great in WWE, never mind been better than Brock Lesnar, I didn't watch too much NXT, but I saw the biggest matches and I was actually pretty underwhelmed. I feel like the only way those matches can be considered on par is if you're looking at women's wrestling at a different standard to the men's. I think if Banks was male, she'd be a below average wrestler. I especially think she's come up to the main roster she has been completely forgettable. Even when there has been limited exposure on her, she's not really done much with the time she has had. Her matches have been slow and stilted for me. 

Brock Lesnar all the way for me, it's not even close.

I'd genuinely hate to have your taste in wrestling

I wish I enjoyed wrestling more, I believe at this stage it's probably just a case of Stockholm Syndrome.

Crimey wrote:

Dr Gregory House MD wrote:

Crimey wrote:I genuinely don't even think this is a competition. Brock Lesnar is by far and away the best thing in wrestling right now. I think it's crazy that he's not even in the final considering he pretty much never does anything wrong. He's fantastic at looking great but does actually do a really good job at making his opponents look good as well, Reigns hasn't looked as good as he did in the Wrestlemania main event despite the fact that it was a squash match for most of it, Seth Rollins hit heights he hasn't reached again in the Royal Rumble triple threat. Just look how bad Undertaker looked against the Wyatts compared to against Brock Lesnar. He's the most exciting thing and he's supremely talented. When people talk about getting the little things right, Brock Lesnar is the best in the business right now at doing that. For all his protection and good booking, it's Lesnar himself who really sells it. Even if you take away Paul Heyman, I'd still say Brock Lesnar is the top guy. He's so believable, his matches for nearly 2 years now have been on a totally different level to anything else WWE has produced in that time. 

I don't even think Sasha Banks has been great in WWE, never mind been better than Brock Lesnar, I didn't watch too much NXT, but I saw the biggest matches and I was actually pretty underwhelmed. I feel like the only way those matches can be considered on par is if you're looking at women's wrestling at a different standard to the men's. I think if Banks was male, she'd be a below average wrestler. I especially think she's come up to the main roster she has been completely forgettable. Even when there has been limited exposure on her, she's not really done much with the time she has had. Her matches have been slow and stilted for me. 

Brock Lesnar all the way for me, it's not even close.

I'd genuinely hate to have your taste in wrestling

I wish I enjoyed wrestling more, I believe at this stage it's probably just a case of Stockholm Syndrome.

I understand I support a Poopie football team as well

Voting is now closed

Congratulations to Brock Lesnar as he officially finished in 3rd Place of the 2015 V2 WWC

Commiserations to Sasha Banks who can at least be content with not only 4th Place but also knowing she was the highest ranked female in V2 WWC history!

The V2 WWC concludes on Monday with the Final!!