PRO12 has new Managing Director and he isn't Irish :D :yahoo:

First topic message reminder :

Welcome Martin Anayi, you are going to have your hands full.

Read more at http://www.pro12rugby.com/news/17587.php#kJPQdWr0F2UKZ8DF.99

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

What a load of bs, if the regions or most clubs in world rugby had to stand on their own two feet they'd be bust, who bailed out the Dragons? who lent the regions money earlier this year because £165k less in funding meant they were short of cash?

It doesn't matter what the ownership structure is its in unions best interests to develop the clubs/regions/provinces

English and French and Welsh clubs stand on their own two feet. Director's loans are just a form of doing that.

In Ireland, it's murky and mucky and skews the league. It shouldn't be allowed, if you're interested in having a fair and transparent league.

No they cant as Ive just stated, otherwise the Dragons wouldn't be half owned by the WRU and they wouldn't have had to lend the regions money

'The Welsh Rugby Union has agreed to loan the regions the money interest free to ease the cash-flow problems created by the with-holding of Heineken Cup cash.

It means the Wales home-based players can go into the Millennium Stadium clash against France on Friday night with fears over not being paid having been eased.'

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

What a load of bs, if the regions or most clubs in world rugby had to stand on their own two feet they'd be bust, who bailed out the Dragons? who lent the regions money earlier this year because £165k less in funding meant they were short of cash?

It doesn't matter what the ownership structure is its in unions best interests to develop the clubs/regions/provinces

English and French and Welsh clubs stand on their own two feet. Director's loans are just a form of doing that.

In Ireland, it's murky and mucky and skews the league. It shouldn't be allowed, if you're interested in having a fair and transparent league.

Nearly all the French clubs use municipal stadiums. I think Toulon get 3m a year from the city of Toulon. Unlike Munster who have had to develop their own.

More like Director's ego trips in my opinion.

Sin é wrote:

Its normal in this country for the Irish Government to support sporting infrastructure. For instance, the Irish gov. contributed about 50% of the cost of the Aviva (in Dublin    )

How much does the Liberty cost the Ospreys to hire?

Oh, yes, Irish Government support. That'll be Germa..... oh, can't do that one.

No idea on the Liberty as the Os meet half of the maintenance costs but make a bomb from the corporate income shared with the soccer stadium. When the soccer team buy the stadium, it will be interesting to see how that deal pans out.

PhilBB wrote:It's an horrific competition for us in Wales.

I wouldn't go that far Phil. OK it needs to sort the Irishness of it out, but it has the potential to be a cracking league, but Rome was not built in a day.

LordDowlais wrote:

I wouldn't go that far Phil. OK it needs to sort the Irishness of it out, but it has the potential to be a cracking league, but Rome was not built in a day.

Nobody in their right mind would choose the Pr'O12 over an Anglo-Welsh league.

Sin é wrote:

Nearly all the French clubs use municipal stadiums. I think Toulon get 3m a year from the city of Toulon. Unlike Munster who have had to develop their own.

More like Director's ego trips in my opinion.

Ulster just got £13m from their council, didn't they?

Yes, giving away millions of pounds is an ego trip for our Directors but good old McManus, he's the salt of the earth.

That's the narrative, isn't it?

marty2086 wrote:

No they cant as Ive just stated, otherwise the Dragons wouldn't be half owned by the WRU and they wouldn't have had to lend the regions money

'The Welsh Rugby Union has agreed to loan the regions the money interest free to ease the cash-flow problems created by the with-holding of Heineken Cup cash.

It means the Wales home-based players can go into the Millennium Stadium clash against France on Friday night with fears over not being paid having been eased.'

The WRU has not put a penny into the Dragons.

That withholding of the ERC cash - whose decision was that? Have a think about it - would it be the Union shareholders who didn't need the money or the clubs who did?

And the Pro Teams would just have got the BT Sport advance to cover it.

Or, alternatively, had the WRU paid the market rate for the services provided to it by RRW then there wouldn't have been the need for the loan.

See? You need to understand the full picture.

PhilBB wrote:

Ulster just got £13m from their council, didn't they?

No from the Stormont government, money was also given to the GAA for Casement Park and the IFA for Windsor Park

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Ulster just got £13m from their council, didn't they?

No from the Stormont government, money was also given to the GAA for Casement Park and the IFA for Windsor Park

http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/news-dcal-141112-minister-gives-green

Ah yes, because it's a country.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No they cant as Ive just stated, otherwise the Dragons wouldn't be half owned by the WRU and they wouldn't have had to lend the regions money

'The Welsh Rugby Union has agreed to loan the regions the money interest free to ease the cash-flow problems created by the with-holding of Heineken Cup cash.

It means the Wales home-based players can go into the Millennium Stadium clash against France on Friday night with fears over not being paid having been eased.'

The WRU has not put a penny into the Dragons.

That withholding of the ERC cash - whose decision was that? Have a think about it - would it be the Union shareholders who didn't need the money or the clubs who did?

And the Pro Teams would just have got the BT Sport advance to cover it.

Or, alternatively, had the WRU paid the market rate for the services provided to it by RRW then there wouldn't have been the need for the loan.

See? You need to understand the full picture.

Without the WRU stepping in as a guarantee the Dragons probably would be no more

The ERC were given legal advice to withhold the money because of action the RRW supported

Also the WRU paid the RRW what they two parties had agreed to, the regions were aware of what income they were getting and were short of cash that does say much about their finance if the 165k broke them

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Ulster just got £13m from their council, didn't they?

No from the Stormont government, money was also given to the GAA for Casement Park and the IFA for Windsor Park

http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/news-dcal-141112-minister-gives-green

Ah yes, because it's a country.

Your point being?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No they cant as Ive just stated, otherwise the Dragons wouldn't be half owned by the WRU and they wouldn't have had to lend the regions money

'The Welsh Rugby Union has agreed to loan the regions the money interest free to ease the cash-flow problems created by the with-holding of Heineken Cup cash.

It means the Wales home-based players can go into the Millennium Stadium clash against France on Friday night with fears over not being paid having been eased.'

The WRU has not put a penny into the Dragons.

That withholding of the ERC cash - whose decision was that? Have a think about it - would it be the Union shareholders who didn't need the money or the clubs who did?

And the Pro Teams would just have got the BT Sport advance to cover it.

Or, alternatively, had the WRU paid the market rate for the services provided to it by RRW then there wouldn't have been the need for the loan.

See? You need to understand the full picture.

It was a legal obligation by the Directors of ERC (including directors like Peter Wheeler) to retain all money because the company was going to be wound up.

marty2086 wrote:

Without the WRU stepping in as a guarantee the Dragons probably would be no more

The ERC were given legal advice to withhold the money because of action the RRW supported

Also the WRU paid the RRW what they two parties had agreed to, the regions were aware of what income they were getting and were short of cash that does say much about their finance if the 165k broke them

The WRU aren't a guarantor and it was Tony Brown doing that which took them out of administration in 2003. So you've got that wholly wrong.

The ERC legal advice was countered, let's not forget.

£165k didn't break them. As you've noted, their Directors are more than happy to put that money in as and when. Fortunately, that's all transparent in this country unlike the Gerrymandering in Ireland.

marty2086 wrote:
Your point being?

Countries shouldn't play in domestic leagues.

Sin é wrote:

It was a legal obligation by the Directors of ERC (including directors like Peter Wheeler) to retain all money because the company was going to be wound up.

'All' money or just enough to cover wind up costs? Do tell.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The loan will be paid off (most of it in 2018 when the 10 year tickets will be on sale again).

That's made easier by not having to fund the operating losses at subsidiary level. €9.66m still owed with €200k being paid off interest free a year. So, by 2018, that means €9m will still be owed.

10 year tickets will realise €4.5m?

Munster managed to raise and pay off  €35m 8 years ago - with all other projects finished now, I doubt if it will be too much of a problem.

From 10 year tickets? Link please.

Plus, let's not forget its €40m still owed.

I didn't say it all came from the sale of 10 year tickets. It raised the finance from various sources (like Limerick City Council, Shannon Development, JP McManus (always very generous to sport in Limerick) and lets not forget a stadium with double the capacity it had prior to 2008.

Thought not.

So can you please explain your previous comment - bolded above - about how most of it will be repaid in 2018?

No answer, Sin? Poor form.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Without the WRU stepping in as a guarantee the Dragons probably would be no more

The ERC were given legal advice to withhold the money because of action the RRW supported

Also the WRU paid the RRW what they two parties had agreed to, the regions were aware of what income they were getting and were short of cash that does say much about their finance if the 165k broke them

The WRU aren't a guarantor and it was Tony Brown doing that which took them out of administration in 2003. So you've got that wholly wrong.

The ERC legal advice was countered, let's not forget.

£165k didn't break them. As you've noted, their Directors are more than happy to put that money in as and when. Fortunately, that's all transparent in this country unlike the Gerrymandering in Ireland.

They are in my arse. All they want is handouts from the WRU but they are not prepared to give anything back in return.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Without the WRU stepping in as a guarantee the Dragons probably would be no more

The ERC were given legal advice to withhold the money because of action the RRW supported

Also the WRU paid the RRW what they two parties had agreed to, the regions were aware of what income they were getting and were short of cash that does say much about their finance if the 165k broke them

The WRU aren't a guarantor and it was Tony Brown doing that which took them out of administration in 2003. So you've got that wholly wrong.

The ERC legal advice was countered, let's not forget.

£165k didn't break them. As you've noted, their Directors are more than happy to put that money in as and when. Fortunately, that's all transparent in this country unlike the Gerrymandering in Ireland.

Then why was/is it necessary for the WRU to become 50% shareholders?

Then why didn't the shareholders put money in? Why the need to take the WRU loan the worry that players wouldn't get paid?

Sin é wrote:

They are in my arse. All they want is handouts from the WRU but they are not prepared to give anything back in return.

They are in your arse?

May I politely suggest that you look into the accounts of the four (all freely and transparently available in this country, unlike in Ireland) to educate yourself on what a bloody stupid thing that was to write.

Thanks.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Your point being?

Countries shouldn't play in domestic leagues.

Ulster isn't a country

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

It was a legal obligation by the Directors of ERC (including directors like Peter Wheeler) to retain all money because the company was going to be wound up.

'All' money or just enough to cover wind up costs? Do tell.

They didn't know what the wind up costs would be at that stage - for example, one biggie would be staff redundancies.

You see, these are the responsibilities that Directors of companies have.

marty2086 wrote:
Then why was/is it necessary for the WRU to become 50% shareholders?

Then why didn't the shareholders put money in? Why the need to take the WRU loan the worry that players wouldn't get paid?

The contract the WRU had internally for professional rugby was to allow only two standalone clubs - these were Llanelli and Cardiff. It is why it prevented Bridgend from standing alone when Pontypridd went into administration in September 2003 and it is why it prevented Newport from standing alone.

Why put money in when somebody is offering you an interest free loan? It would be stupid to turn one down, which is why Munster owes its parent company so many millions of Euros.

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Your point being?

Countries shouldn't play in domestic leagues.

Ulster isn't a country

Well, I never.

But Northern Ireland is and it seems to think that throwing millions of pounds of freebies at somebody else's asset is fine.

Another league skewer.

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

It was a legal obligation by the Directors of ERC (including directors like Peter Wheeler) to retain all money because the company was going to be wound up.

'All' money or just enough to cover wind up costs? Do tell.

They didn't know what the wind up costs would be at that stage - for example, one biggie would be staff redundancies.

You see, these are the responsibilities that Directors of companies have.

My dear, when running a business you keep a reserve to meet the costs of such issues. It's fairly easy to work out redundancy costs, so claiming wind up costs would be unknown is nothing more than disingenuous - more so once Heineken were placated.

PhilBB wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The loan will be paid off (most of it in 2018 when the 10 year tickets will be on sale again).

That's made easier by not having to fund the operating losses at subsidiary level. €9.66m still owed with €200k being paid off interest free a year. So, by 2018, that means €9m will still be owed.

10 year tickets will realise €4.5m?

Munster managed to raise and pay off  €35m 8 years ago - with all other projects finished now, I doubt if it will be too much of a problem.

From 10 year tickets? Link please.

Plus, let's not forget its €40m still owed.

I didn't say it all came from the sale of 10 year tickets. It raised the finance from various sources (like Limerick City Council, Shannon Development, JP McManus (always very generous to sport in Limerick) and lets not forget a stadium with double the capacity it had prior to 2008.

Thought not.

So can you please explain your previous comment - bolded above - about how most of it will be repaid in 2018?

No answer, Sin? Poor form.

There are several ways of generating the cash if they need to:

1. Selling naming rights of Thomond Park
2. Getting to a couple of Champs Cups knockouts (worth about 800K to Munster) for a game in Thomond Park.
3. More merchandise sales*
4. More sponsorship
5. A contribution from one or two of the several very wealthy supporters Munster has.
6. Savings from operating out of one training centre from next January.

*Irish economy is on the up again. Unemployment is down to less than 9%.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Then why was/is it necessary for the WRU to become 50% shareholders?

Then why didn't the shareholders put money in? Why the need to take the WRU loan the worry that players wouldn't get paid?

The contract the WRU had internally for professional rugby was to allow only two standalone clubs - these were Llanelli and Cardiff. It is why it prevented Bridgend from standing alone when Pontypridd went into administration in September 2003 and it is why it prevented Newport from standing alone.

Why put money in when somebody is offering you an interest free loan? It would be stupid to turn one down, which is why Munster owes its parent company so many millions of Euros.

So what your saying is infighting in Welsh rugby is common place?

Those in charge of the regions could have done the same

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

It was a legal obligation by the Directors of ERC (including directors like Peter Wheeler) to retain all money because the company was going to be wound up.

'All' money or just enough to cover wind up costs? Do tell.

They didn't know what the wind up costs would be at that stage - for example, one biggie would be staff redundancies.

You see, these are the responsibilities that Directors of companies have.

My dear, when running a business you keep a reserve to meet the costs of such issues. It's fairly easy to work out redundancy costs, so claiming wind up costs would be unknown is nothing more than disingenuous - more so once Heineken were placated.

A bit like when funding gets stopped you mean? Pity they didn't have someone to run to, to get a loan

Sin é wrote:
1. Selling naming rights of Thomond Park
2. Getting to a couple of Champs Cups knockouts (worth about 800K to Munster) for a game in Thomond Park.
3. More merchandise sales*
4. More sponsorship
5. A contribution from one or two of the several very wealthy supporters Munster has.
6. Savings from operating out of one training centre from next January.

*Irish economy is on the up again. Unemployment is down to less than 9%.

So it has nothing to do with the 10 year tickets yet you expect all of that to generate over €4m by 2018.

O.K.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Your point being?

Countries shouldn't play in domestic leagues.

Ulster isn't a country

Well, I never.

But Northern Ireland is and it seems to think that throwing millions of pounds of freebies at somebody else's asset is fine.

Another league skewer.

Whats the problem with Ulster getting a free stadium? Isn't that good for the league? Not many French clubs built their own stadiums.

marty2086 wrote:

So what your saying is infighting in Welsh rugby is common place?

Those in charge of the regions could have done the same

In fighting was common place, it looks to be cured now however.

Why would you put your own money in when somebody else is offering to do it interest free?

profitius wrote:
Whats the problem with Ulster getting a free stadium? Isn't that good for the league? Not many French clubs built their own stadiums.

How much do Ulster pay to rent it?

marty2086 wrote:
A bit like when funding gets stopped you mean? Pity they didn't have someone to run to, to get a loan

They didn't need a loan, so what a very odd and twisted thing to write.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Your point being?

Countries shouldn't play in domestic leagues.

Ulster isn't a country

Well, I never.

But Northern Ireland is and it seems to think that throwing millions of pounds of freebies at somebody else's asset is fine.

Another league skewer.

What's a freebie? Ulster on the map, Ulster on the bigger European Map... Ulster marketing itself using sport................. you know how that goes in Wales don't you? It's called Investment. Invest in sport to hopefully cash in on increased business down other avenues whether it's tourism or services etc.....

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

It was a legal obligation by the Directors of ERC (including directors like Peter Wheeler) to retain all money because the company was going to be wound up.

'All' money or just enough to cover wind up costs? Do tell.

They didn't know what the wind up costs would be at that stage - for example, one biggie would be staff redundancies.

You see, these are the responsibilities that Directors of companies have.

My dear, when running a business you keep a reserve to meet the costs of such issues. It's fairly easy to work out redundancy costs, so claiming wind up costs would be unknown is nothing more than disingenuous - more so once Heineken were placated.

Thats good coming from the guy who can't figure out how to reclaim VAT paid in another EU State.

You have no idea what compensation would have been required for the staff. Some of the staff had been there from the beginning. As well as that, the Directors of the company were Honorary and would have deserved a greater duty of care that they were not personally liable.

SecretFly wrote:

What's a freebie?  Ulster on the map, Ulster on the bigger European Map... Ulster marketing itself using sport................. you know how that goes in Wales don't you?  It's called Investment.  Invest in sport to hopefully cash in on increased business down other avenues whether it's tourism or services etc.....

How much does Ulster Rugby / IRFU Branch North pay to use the stadium?

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
1. Selling naming rights of Thomond Park
2. Getting to a couple of Champs Cups knockouts (worth about 800K to Munster) for a game in Thomond Park.
3. More merchandise sales*
4. More sponsorship
5. A contribution from one or two of the several very wealthy supporters Munster has.
6. Savings from operating out of one training centre from next January.

*Irish economy is on the up again. Unemployment is down to less than 9%.

So it has nothing to do with the 10 year tickets yet you expect all of that to generate over €4m by 2018.

O.K.

7. Sales of 10 year tickets.

Sin é wrote:
Thats good coming from the guy who can't figure out how to reclaim VAT paid in another EU State.

You have no idea what compensation would have been required for the staff.  Some of the staff had been there from the beginning. As well as that, the Directors of the company were Honorary and would have deserved a greater duty of care that they were not personally liable.

Compensation is paid out in line with time in service. The rest of that post indicates you've barely run a bath let alone a company in your life.

Sin é wrote:
7. Sales of 10 year tickets.

Ah, right, so your initial claim that most of it would be gone by 2018 because of 10 year ticket sales was, by your own admission, out by a factor of 6 our of 7.

Well done.

PhilBB wrote:

profitius wrote:
Whats the problem with Ulster getting a free stadium? Isn't that good for the league? Not many French clubs built their own stadiums.

How much do Ulster pay to rent it?

Pay for using the ground you own? Its the amount they paid after they redeveloped it themselves 5 years previously

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

profitius wrote:
Whats the problem with Ulster getting a free stadium? Isn't that good for the league? Not many French clubs built their own stadiums.

How much do Ulster pay to rent it?

Pay for using the ground you own? Its the amount they paid after they redeveloped it themselves 5 years previously

So they get £14m for free?

Nice work if you can get it.

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

profitius wrote:
Whats the problem with Ulster getting a free stadium? Isn't that good for the league? Not many French clubs built their own stadiums.

How much do Ulster pay to rent it?

Pay for using the ground you own? Its the amount they paid after they redeveloped it themselves 5 years previously

According to a quick Google, Ulster do not own it.

The IRFU does.

No the Punters will pay back every cent.....

SecretFly wrote:No the Punters will pay back every cent.....

Don't you mean penny? It's in a different country, you see.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

profitius wrote:
Whats the problem with Ulster getting a free stadium? Isn't that good for the league? Not many French clubs built their own stadiums.

How much do Ulster pay to rent it?

Pay for using the ground you own? Its the amount they paid after they redeveloped it themselves 5 years previously

According to a quick Google, Ulster do not own it.

The IRFU does.

The IRFU own Ulster. Ulster owns the ground. The IRFU own the ground. Ulster owns the Ground......

This is what Regions are. Not Private Clubs that want to call themselves Regions. Genuine Regions of an Overall Unit. The fault is not with the Provinces but simply perhaps with Private Clubs claiming to be Regions?

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:No the Punters will pay back every cent.....

Don't you mean penny? It's in a different country, you see.

I can spend Cents up there.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

profitius wrote:
Whats the problem with Ulster getting a free stadium? Isn't that good for the league? Not many French clubs built their own stadiums.

How much do Ulster pay to rent it?

Pay for using the ground you own? Its the amount they paid after they redeveloped it themselves 5 years previously

According to a quick Google, Ulster do not own it.

The IRFU does.

So now they are separate entities?

SecretFly wrote:

The IRFU own Ulster.  Ulster owns the ground.  The IRFU own the ground.  Ulster owns the Ground......

This is what Regions are.  Not Private Clubs that want to call themselves Regions.  Genuine Regions of an Overall Unit.  The fault is not with the Provinces but simply perhaps with Private Clubs claiming to be Regions?

Oh, I'm fully aware of the ownership structure.

Does it make for a fair and even league? No.

By the way, in Wales we have clubs who are also Regional Organisation members of the WRU - shortened to Regions.

What you've described, by the way, is Provinces. Or Branches. Not regions.

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

profitius wrote:
Whats the problem with Ulster getting a free stadium? Isn't that good for the league? Not many French clubs built their own stadiums.

How much do Ulster pay to rent it?

Pay for using the ground you own? Its the amount they paid after they redeveloped it themselves 5 years previously

According to a quick Google, Ulster do not own it.

The IRFU does.

So now they are separate entities?

Simply pointing out that the Ulster 'Branch' doesn't own the ground. It's Daddy does.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

profitius wrote:
Whats the problem with Ulster getting a free stadium? Isn't that good for the league? Not many French clubs built their own stadiums.

How much do Ulster pay to rent it?

Pay for using the ground you own? Its the amount they paid after they redeveloped it themselves 5 years previously

So they get £14m for free?

Nice work if you can get it.

They were given money as part of infrastructure projects that provided jobs and will bring money into the local economy

marty2086 wrote:

They were given money as part of infrastructure projects that provided jobs and will bring money into the local economy

Right.

I can see why the Northern Ireland government spending on the asset of a Republic of Ireland company in order to bring jobs to Belfast is exactly the best way to spend £14m.