West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

First topic message reminder :

20 wickets is the key to winning test matches, and we saw in Antigua that it's easier said that done, even against this so called 'mediocre' West Indies team. True, the pitch died and became easier to bat on, but we lacked variety, and bite.

So who comes in?

Rashid/Ali or Wood for Tredwell or Jordan?

Tredwell did take four in the first innings, but will more than likely tie an end up, than clean up. Jordan is similar, and with Greneda more prone to spin, I can see one of the two spinners replacing the latter.

Lyth/Ali for Trott?

Trott had a stinker, but received a couple of good deliveries, and will be harshly dropped, after his first game back. Some have mentioned Ali to open, though this won't happen, imho.

The likely XI

Cook
Trott
Ballance
Bell
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Ali/Rashid
Tredwell
Broad
Anderson

Who else thinks we're seeing the end of Chanderpaul?

I hope so. I hate seeing great (I know people on here are hesitant to call him that) players need to be taken out back and put down by administrators.

He is without doubt a great batsmen, much harder to shine in a poor team than it was for Ponting for instance to shine in a great team, forever attempting to dig his team out of a hole has had an overall negative effect.

Yes, it seems its time for Chanderpaul to call it a day. Perhaps Tajenarine will be ready to take over soon?
I know its unfair to put the youngster under all that pressure, but the lad is showing good promise that's what reports indicate.......

So far so good. Hopefully a great evening session. #JordansSession

Marlon Samuels playing a patient innings. Off to bed now, but I almost certainly expect him to have come out trying to do something inexplicable.

Raf, when its Samuels, the word has to be foolish!. There is no other word nice enough to describe what he did whenever he managed a start in South Africa or in the first test of the series.
Here is the Samuels Moment, foolish shot of Jordan, but Cook returning a bit of the generosityby putting the chance down!.

A life like that should usually inspire Samuels into further foolishness, so England should have their chances sooner rather than later, but that was an opportunity missed by the England captain, to take the game to the next level.......

Chuckled at this on Cricinfo

Richard: "We clearly need Jordan fielding at slip,
when Jordan is bowling."

The English are quite good at this disparaging self depreciation thing

Goodness, Samuels is such a clown!. He's going after a ball that is far too wide so much so that it was called a wide!. Despite his best efforts, Marlon couldn't reach it!.

Not an easy chance, but Broad missed Blackwood on his follow-through.

Review against Blackwood, and he's gone!.

Blackwood's luck not holding up couldn't add many after that drop. Good review from Cook.

All down to Samuels now, but he never gives a sense of security at the crease. Really looking bad for the West Indies, but England should be happy the drop catches not setting them back significantly though Samuels is still there.

Broad now consistently below 80mph

Beginning to wonder if this latest injury may have been the straw that broke the camels back

Tuning in now for the first time today. England seeming in a good position with the West Indies on 156/5.

See that Jordan has a couple of wickets. Surprised that quite a few favoured him being dropped. I'm keen for him to have a run. I think he might have what it takes at this level. He certainly seems to make things happen!

I am slightly - no well staggered that England turned to Trott before Root to bowl. Why? Root bowled excellently in the First Test taking key wickets whereas the last time Trott was bowled was ....when?

Seems I missed a Samuels counter attack late in the play. Knowing Samuels, he would have launched it against the medium pace and spinners, correct?

A very flat day again from England again. I think we have to accept this is an average team nowadays - we got a bit spoiled by England briefly being an all conquering outfit. Back to the mediocrity that we are more used to it seems!

When Blackwood got out, WI were 129-5. They recovered to 188-5 by stumps. In that 59 run unbeaten partnership, skipper Ramdin's contribution has been 6!. The drop from Cook proving costly for England, as Samuels ended the day on 94 not out, he was dropped on 33.
Credits are due to Samuels as well, he had his moments of fortune and indiscretion, but he was patient by and large, and on a day where there was no contributions from Brathwaite and Chanderpaul, he had to produce a performance of substance rather than style, and thankfully for the West Indies, he obliged.

It was a rather flat performance from England. Broad, barring one half-decent spell, was pretty average. Jordan was inconsistent, and though he worked up some pace, Stokes also didn't trouble the batsmen much. Anderson bowled alright, but other than that unplayable one to Brathwaite, there was not much special from him either. Ali was far too inconsistent with his length in particular and didn't provide much control. Yes, Tredwell didn't do anything special on the final day of the first test, but Ali for Tredwell is not the most obvious choice as it was made out to be.......

Yeah I think "flat" is a reasonable summing up.

Having said that 188/5 is not exactly a disaster is it? Reading some of the comments on twitter you would think West Indies were 250/2 and that Bishoo is a world beater who will run through England like hapless chickens. England are very much in this game, but that is possibly more to do with basic errors from West Indies batsmen (with the notable exception of Brathwaite).

I thought Samuels played well until he got to 50 or so, then frankly he swung at things with eyes shut and got away with it due to poor bowling and ordinary captaincy. He says the sledging "motivated" him; to be honest I thought the sledging worked, they got him playing astonishingly stupid shots - there is a difference between counter-attacking and just swinging. Meh. Cook missed a lot of tricks, the biggest one was not stacking the point/gully area which is where balls tend to go off slices. The bowlers weren't consistent enough: length outside off with a couple of gullies and a man deepish and just behind point would have done the trick fairly quickly.

Ali showed the worth of Tredwell in the previous game.

England were average. Not poor, but just average.

Without wishing to sound like I am making excuses, how much is the schedule to blame? Yes I know England had a somewhat unplanned for longer break during the world cup, but with this test series crammed in under a month, then all the stuff in the summer... I can't help but feel we shouldn't be exactly surprised to see Anderson and co looking a bit jaded.

Mike Selig wrote:
Without wishing to sound like I am making excuses, how much is the schedule to blame? Yes I know England had a somewhat unplanned for longer break during the world cup, but with this test series crammed in under a month, then all the stuff in the summer... I can't help but feel we shouldn't be exactly surprised to see Anderson and co looking a bit jaded.

I think it is a factor. Straight from the World Cup, with no decent FC cricket into a Test series on these horrible dead pitches. I think the schedule is a factor in the mediocrity we are seeing, the bowlers always seem to be coming back from injuries these days. I feel they are being flogged into the ground.

The schedule is going to kill off broad and Anderson over the next year I'm convinced of it

Heck broad was barely reaching 80mph yesterday and he's got another 15 tests to come this year!!

Olly wrote:The schedule is going to kill off broad and Anderson over the next year I'm convinced of it

Heck broad was barely reaching 80mph yesterday and he's got another 15 tests to come this year!!

He won't have 15 if he doesn't improve with the ball. That said, I think he will.

Pleased to see Jordan having a good day. I only saw the early session - and the last couple of overs , but was quite impressed with his first spell.
I know I expressed some doubt about his bowling (and I still harbour them) but at times he looks distinctly promising , and I'd be delighted if he could attain a reasonable level of consistency. England really need one of these new pace bowlers to step up a level soon : Broad and Anderson won't last forever.
Only saw Moeen's first and last overs ... I sincerely hope the ones in between were a bit better ! Perhaps not surprising he was a little rusty...and maybe retaining Tredwell for this match would have been a better idea...
Of course , the longer Rashid doesn't play , the better he gets

At least with Stokes in the team there is enough bowling to ease the burden on the main pair on these slow pitches. Guess if a couple of catches had been held they might have finished the day in a strong position ; but a good pre- lunch session today could set that up anyway. They'll want to use the upcoming new ball well , mind.

Does play really have to start again today? Following England play cricket just puts me in a bad mood at the moment!

VTR wrote:Does play really have to start again today? Following England play cricket just puts me in a bad mood at the moment!

I rather enjoyed the first test. Full of ups and downs. This game may go the same way?

Looks like youll get your way VTR , still no play!

Gooseberry wrote:Looks like youll get your way VTR , still no play!

Ha, good news

Stella, I enjoyed the first Test until the point we were defied by the Windies number 8. We are just so bad at finishing teams off these days, we can get the 5 or 6 down but then they add another 150-200 runs with all sorts of average tailenders (Best, Agar, Holder etc.) racking up personal bests along the way.

That could just be the modern game I suppose, and I imagine there is many a Pakistani still haunted by Broad's 160-odd and I do genuinely feel for any Indians who had to witness The Burnley Lara almost score a Test hundred!

alfie wrote:Pleased to see Jordan having a good day. I only saw the early session  - and the last couple of overs , but was quite impressed with his first spell.
I know I expressed some doubt about his bowling (and I still harbour them) but at times he looks distinctly promising , and I'd be delighted if he could attain a reasonable level of consistency. England really need one of these new pace bowlers to step up a level soon : Broad and Anderson won't last forever.
Only saw Moeen's first and last overs ... I sincerely hope the ones in between were a bit better !  Perhaps not surprising he was a little rusty...and maybe retaining Tredwell for this match would have been a better idea...
Of course , the longer Rashid doesn't play , the better he gets

At least with Stokes in the team there is enough bowling to ease the burden on the main pair on these slow pitches. Guess if a couple of catches had been held they might have finished the day in a strong position ; but a good pre- lunch session today could set that up anyway. They'll want to use the upcoming new ball well , mind.

Hi Alfie - I only saw the last few overs on day one but you're again pretty much reflecting my sentiments.

You know I like Jordan or, at least, his promise. If that is to have any chance of growing, he needs a run in the side.

Moeen was bowling too short the little I saw of him. Gower referred to him on commentary as having trouble earlier with his line and length whilst Willis (who rarely says a good word when a bad one will do) remarked in the post-play analysis that ''he bowled lollypops''. Moeen wouldn't have made my team and I would have retained ''my man'' Tredwell. I know that would have been harsh on Moeen but I think the decision on Tredders was equally harsh and also wrong.

England did let things slip towards the end but, echoing Mike's thoughts, we remain in a strong position. The West Indies will do well to even get 300 from where they are now and that sort of total is generally not nearly enough first dig in modern day Test cricket.

Broad's 169 was against an attack, who may not have been trying that hard, but yes, we do have a problem negotiating tailenders.

VTR wrote:

... We are just so bad at finishing teams off these days, we can get the 5 or 6 down but then they add another 150-200 runs with all sorts of average tailenders ... racking up personal bests along the way.

...

Whoops, reading that I thought I was back on the Surrey board!

guildfordbat wrote:

VTR wrote:

... We are just so bad at finishing teams off these days, we can get the 5 or 6 down but then they add another 150-200 runs with all sorts of average tailenders ... racking up personal bests along the way.

...

Whoops, reading that I thought I was back on the Surrey board!

I am sure Glamorgan's number 9 is an all-time great batsman in the making

They played like ten ODIs in Aus, and before that seven in SL. That's seventeen days of international cricket in the last six or seven months. Some of which only needed two or three overs bowling. I don't buy this exhaustion theory. Seems the default whenever English players underperform. Admittedly, they've got a crazy schedule coming up, but it's imo too early to be looking at fatigue.

Also Holder isn't an average tailender. He certainly isn't a tailender like Agar or Best. He's a genuine all rounder. More in the Pollock mould than the Lee mould of bowling batsmen

kingraf wrote:
Also Holder isn't an average tailender. He certainly isn't a tailender like Agar or Best. He's a genuine all rounder. More in the Pollock mould than the Lee mould of bowling batsmen

He averages 19 in FC Cricket, in the very mediocre Windies domestic competition, I think it is fair to expect to get him out cheaply at Test level more often than not.

West Indies pitches aren't conducive to run scoring. Brathwaite averages 33 in FC and he's crossed 50 in a third of his Test innings.

Also Holder's last three knocks at the world cup read, 42, 57 and 56. Against NZ, SA and India. Admittedly, it's a different format, but the quality faced would be superior to anything at FC level, and he scored.

Holder did bat and look good during that innings, despite our bowling, and the easy pitch. I'd be astounded if he doesn't score another test ton.

England seem to have cornered the market in grumpy sledgers who, frankly, don't have the world class game or perform consistently enough to back it up. Just at the moment, it's almost embarrassing to see the imbalance between the way they talk the talk and (don't) walk the walk. Shut up, get on with the game and then let's see if you can cheer us up.

If I were an Aussie batsman, I wouldn't be overconcerned by the prospect of this summer's Ashes series. where will we be if Jimmy gets injured (and Broad maybe doesn't)...

Glass definitely half empty from where I'm sitting ...

The game resumes.......

212/5
New ball
Samuels stuck on 97

Big moment in the game this. Whatever Windies get, England need to bat once. They need them daddy hundreds bad.

This is terrible, the rain's back.

This time, it could be here to stay for some time.

Hundred for Samuels at last!. Not the most convincing shot, an edge down to thirdman from 99, but a very valuable knock.......

Flashing at back to back balls, edge down to thirdman, beaten next ball, and duely caught of the next one as Samuels goes right after reaching his ton.

Marlon clearly not bothered by going on after his hundred. Two wooshed and out. Clearly some bad blood there too, given the send off he got...

Someone clearly had a word with Broad too! Pushing it down at 88/89 mph!

Now Ramdin goes caught behind for 31 of Broad, WI 233-7.
Holder lefte with not much support here, the innings folding quickly.

That's bounced, Moeen knows it too

Holder almost holding out in the deep, not clear whether the ball carried to Moeen Ali and eventually given not out as it often happens with such catches.