West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

First topic message reminder :

20 wickets is the key to winning test matches, and we saw in Antigua that it's easier said that done, even against this so called 'mediocre' West Indies team. True, the pitch died and became easier to bat on, but we lacked variety, and bite.

So who comes in?

Rashid/Ali or Wood for Tredwell or Jordan?

Tredwell did take four in the first innings, but will more than likely tie an end up, than clean up. Jordan is similar, and with Greneda more prone to spin, I can see one of the two spinners replacing the latter.

Lyth/Ali for Trott?

Trott had a stinker, but received a couple of good deliveries, and will be harshly dropped, after his first game back. Some have mentioned Ali to open, though this won't happen, imho.

The likely XI

Cook
Trott
Ballance
Bell
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Ali/Rashid
Tredwell
Broad
Anderson

A fair few were complaining when Trott, Cook and Ballance were scoring, on a lifeless track they should have been scoring at a more progressive rate to try and avoid the now inevitable draw.

Let's be honest -
England are going through a transition phase as far as their bowling attack is concerned, and haven't yet got it right.
No problem with Anderson and Broad as the opening pair - one genuine swing and seam, the other a fast-medium guy who can get awkward bounce and bowls some killer spells.
For me, neither Jordan nor Stokes are genuine 3rd seamers, but with Finn having lost form, Woakes injured, Plunkett not having established himself and Wood having no experience, where are the options? Would be good if we had a genuine 90mph bowler or a left armer, but (as we saw with the attempts to find a leg spinner in the 90s and 00s) there is no point picking someone because they bowl in the 'right' style if they are not of Test quality.

Oh, and we really miss Swann. Ali has done well with the ball so far in his Test career, certainly better than expected, but he is way off form in this match. Would Rashid have been a better pick? Might have bowled more threatening balls, but also may have gone for more runs. Tredwell the opposite - economical but would he threaten enough?

As far as the spinner goes you have to go for the bowler most likely to take wickets and that is Rashid, economy shouldn't come into it if you're looking to win games.

dummy_half wrote:Let's be honest -
England are going through a transition phase as far as their bowling attack is concerned, and haven't yet got it right.
No problem with Anderson and Broad as the opening pair - one genuine swing and seam, the other a fast-medium guy who can get awkward bounce and bowls some killer spells.
For me, neither Jordan nor Stokes are genuine 3rd seamers, but with Finn having lost form, Woakes injured, Plunkett not having established himself and Wood having no experience, where are the options? Would be good if we had a genuine 90mph bowler or a left armer, but (as we saw with the attempts to find a leg spinner in the 90s and 00s) there is no point picking someone because they bowl in the 'right' style if they are not of Test quality.

Oh, and we really miss Swann. Ali has done well with the ball so far in his Test career, certainly better than expected, but he is way off form in this match. Would Rashid have been a better pick? Might have bowled more threatening balls, but also may have gone for more runs. Tredwell the opposite - economical but would he threaten enough?

Agree with this. I think the Ali/Tredwell/Rashid argument is/was far from clear cut...you cannot ignore economy in a spinner , especially when a couple of your seamers are prone to erratic spells ; but if (if !) you have a man who can change a match in a spell then the risk becomes more acceptable. And you need to assess whether the pitch is going to provide any bowler with significant assistance...
I do take the point about previous attempts to force a leg spinner into the team just for "idealogical" reasons ...memories of Salisbury and Schofield : doesn't mean Rashid will be the same ; but there seems to me a touch of blind faith in the notion that he will automatically be a success. England clearly are still interested ; but he probably needs to make better use of warm up games and net performance. If he plays in Barbados I truly hope he does well ; but either way i believe he will get a chance at some point - perhaps in UAE ? As dummy says , the England attack is far from the finished article.

I noticed yesterday Sky put up a stat that this pitch has a far bigger percentage of wickets taken by spinners than seam bowlers. I wonder if the selectors looked at that stat pre-match and missed a trick?

Anyway play not far away from starting and it looks an odds-on draw. A chance though for Ali to bowl himself into form and maybe Cook and Trott (if they even get the chance) to continue to build form and confidence.

A couple of Anderson wickets with the new ball and West Indies now 238 for 4. Lead is 73. Still need another two minimum before lunch I'd say to still keep their hopes alive.

Hmm...switching on just in time to see a remarkable catch by Cook give Anderson the important wicket of Chanderpaul

Two gone to the new ball and just a little pressure back on West Indies , effectively 73/4

Anderson looking hostile

CaledonianCraig wrote:A couple of Anderson wickets with the new ball and West Indies now 238 for 4. Lead is 73. Still need another two minimum before lunch I'd say to still keep their hopes alive.

Agreed. Really need one of these quickly to get at Ramdin and Holder before ball and bowlers get past their freshest...

By my calculations, West Indies are forty overs from safety. Still think they'll get the draw. But a silver of light for England

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy.

And there goes Samuels ! Excellent bowling

Anderson on fire ...game on

Just as well I didn't put any money on this. Windies are disintegrating.

Hey Raf - in the unlikely event he took my advice, it might still be Olly who gets the pay out from the bookies!

Still a long way to go for England though. I'd say they need another couple out before lunch. One thing that helps them is that Windies aren't scoring all that quickly at all.

Oh yes, Craig, definitely still a long way to go. But not so far as it was last night and signs now that it might just be possible.

Despite all the concern about the stodge at the top of the England order, we have several in the middle and lower down who will be happy to biff it if necessary.

guildfordbat wrote:Oh yes, Craig, definitely still a long way to go. But not so far as it was last night and signs now that it might just be possible.

Despite all the concern about the stodge at the top of the England order, we have several in the middle and lower down who will be happy to biff it if necessary.

It is the getting of these five wickets that England will have more trouble with. The pitch remains docile and once the sine is off the new ball well......where do the wickets come from?

What England really need (well obviously a couple more quick wickets , but ) is for one of the other bowlers to produce a spell of magic - jimmy can't bowl them all out on his own.

Although he nearly got another one then ! Fierce lifter and so nearly a carbon copy of the Brathwaite wicket. Nice to see him bowling at close to 90 again.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Oh yes, Craig, definitely still a long way to go. But not so far as it was last night and signs now that it might just be possible.

Despite all the concern about the stodge at the top of the England order, we have several in the middle and lower down who will be happy to biff it if necessary.

It is the getting of these five wickets that England will have more trouble with. The pitch remains docile and once the sine is off the new ball well......where do the wickets come from?

Two more and you'd think the last three would follow... But they probably need those next two pretty soon.
I think I'd have had Stokes on before Jordan ; suppose he's thought more likely to swing it while some swing is on offer...

But theres the wicket so what do I know

Can't keep Jimmy out of this ... Good overhead catch

Blackwood will be kicking himself. Guess that's the way he plays , but really...

Now it is getting interesting but lets remember that this West Indies side (so far) in this series have shown they are a little more resolute with the bat. As you say alfie it needs someone to weigh in with a handful of wickets to back up Anderson.

Great throw by Anderson to run out Holder. A bonus wicket that one. Seven down and still not quite a lead of 100 for the West Indies.

Anderson now with the run out.

Some poetry in that after Holder ran a careless Anderson out yesterday

Just can't keep Jimmy out of it can they ?

Ramdin now with all the pressure on him . But Anderson will have to rest ...in fact he's off now . Broad needs to keep that pressure on

James Anderson is good at cricket #analysis

England just shouldn't mess this up now. A draw will be very much a loss for them from this situation........

It is been a fine performance from Anderson and England. He has come to the party with the new ball. Of course the WI batsmen did a bit of self-destruction, particularly Blackwood and Holder, but Anderson really bowled.
Also means we need to have a sense of perspective when we were all after the pitch earlier. The England new ball bowling was rather disappointing throughout the series other than this passage. And you can't put all the blame for that on the pitch.

Keep saying we need one more...but Roach was stubborn in Antigua ; I'll be happier when one of these goes...

Nearly played on to Jordan then ...not a dull moment this morning.

Ramdin can't save this by just batting out overs, he has to stay positive and look to put as many on the board as possible.

msp83 wrote:England just shouldn't mess this up now. A draw will be very much a loss for them from this situation........

I disagree. Pitch has been docile and it was odds on it being a draw. If England win this it will be a bonus as far as I am concerned. Just look at the amount of wickets to fall in this match - a lot were/have been chop ons or run-outs. Says all that needs to be said about the wicket for me.

West Indies can't play for a draw from here. They've capitulated spectacularly, and need to try fond a way to put pressure on England. A lead in excess of 180 may be challenging. But from here, Ramdin has to start thinking Win, even if it isn't possible. England are going to win by any other mindset

Perhaps not so much Holder, that was rather freakish the way it happened, not the greatest shots from Ramdin to start with though. But unlike Holder, Ramdin is still there.

If we don't close this out now then I am not sure where a win in coming from

Surely we can't let the windies off he hook again?

Ramdin is actually playing pretty well ; looking for runs - as in fact is Roach when the ball is there.

Don't think Broad is getting it quite right : I like the short ball to Roach , but it needs to be right at him...no room to slash.

At some point Cook will have to start worrying about runs. But not before lunch I think.

Here's Moeen : time for him to do something ? But what's wrong with Stokes ?

Is this the Jimmy Anderson show??

Another wicket - Ali gets a wicket as Anderson takes a catch in deep. Windies effectively 117 for 8.

West Indies lead by 117, without at least 170-180, England wouldn't even start worrying.
Now Roach throws it away, England one stepp closer. Can Bishoo replicate his first innings performance? His side desparately need him to.......

One would suspect theres a rollicking coming Roachs way for that dismissal

Two to get ...

England have had trouble closing out innings lately : this situation is a little different though.
Cook very proactive this morning - Root on , gives another over before lunch

Good captaincy from Cook to bring Root on, ensures one more over before lunch........

Oh, was Ramdin dropped there?

Broad starting after lunch : won't be so easy with the ball 25 overs old now.

And Moeen. Hmm : think I'd have had Jimmy back first up ; but we'll see.

Bishoo facing too many deliveries For my liking

Probably the most intriguing aspect of Test cricket, this. It's not enough to be better than your opponent, or even to comprehensively Outclass them. You have. To. Put. Them. AWAY

Ramdin reviews an LBW call against him, but he has no hope.

Ramdin out and the lead is 142 with nine wickets down for the Windies.

And just like that Ali gets Gabriel LBW - reviewed.

And the West Indies are bowled out for 307. England need 143 to win in around 60 overs.

Three wickets for Ali - that will help him as well as getting plenty of bowling in.

Seems its all over, another review from Gabriel,

Should be a stroll in the park this