West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

First topic message reminder :

20 wickets is the key to winning test matches, and we saw in Antigua that it's easier said that done, even against this so called 'mediocre' West Indies team. True, the pitch died and became easier to bat on, but we lacked variety, and bite.

So who comes in?

Rashid/Ali or Wood for Tredwell or Jordan?

Tredwell did take four in the first innings, but will more than likely tie an end up, than clean up. Jordan is similar, and with Greneda more prone to spin, I can see one of the two spinners replacing the latter.

Lyth/Ali for Trott?

Trott had a stinker, but received a couple of good deliveries, and will be harshly dropped, after his first game back. Some have mentioned Ali to open, though this won't happen, imho.

The likely XI

Cook
Trott
Ballance
Bell
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Ali/Rashid
Tredwell
Broad
Anderson

Now Holder goes caught behind. for 22, Broad takes his 3rd.
WI 246-8.

Stuart Broad what a man. Hopefully get this innings done and dusted soon as.

Both Roach and Bishoo are more hang around kind of lower order batsmen, but that may not produce much as there is no proper batsman to hang around with. So perhaps they should have a go and try and add whatever more to the total. At the moment, a score of 247 looks way below par, though you can't really say unless England bat. But Taylor not there and no early morning assistance to help, there shouldn't be much trouble for the English batsmen.

Now 9 down as Roach goes LBW. Broad takes 4.

West Indies losing their last 4 wickets for 24.

Broad off after his best spell in the series after remaining ineffective for most of it otherwise.

Anderson also off, and its Stokes back on........

Both Jordan and Stokes starting their new spells rather poorly.

Tactical review from England, waste of time.......

If it doesn't happen this over, think Cook should bring on Ali or Root.

I do enjoy a good old 10/11 slog

Ali On....... West Indies total slowily inching up, and they are taking a bit of time out of the game. b

The last wicket partnership goes pass 50.

How come so many 'tail-enders' seem to get their career best scores against England?

Hoggy_Bear wrote:How come so many 'tail-enders' seem to get their career best scores against England?

My guess is bad bowling.

That was good fun - big fan of Gabriel not being able to run properly in pads

Ali gets Bishoo at last, the batsman review of the LBW call not standing up on umpire's call. West Indies bowled out for 299. Not a great score, but not a bad one either considering they batted more than hundred overs and with some help from rain, took out valuable time out of the game, meaning England will have to be proactive with the bat to set the game up.

How many more overs will they manage today? The English openers under a bit of pressure, they would really need a strong start to set the tempo of the innings.
With no Jerome Taylor, the cheap new ball shouldn't swing much, so life should be easier........

More runs gifted to rank bad batsman. I would not be surprised to see Peter Siddle make his maiden test double century this summer

The absolute state of this west Indies bowling attack - Gabriel is atrocious

Say it quietly, but cook looks good out there

I loved this comment from Mike Atherton to fellow Sky commentator and former West Indies wicket keeper Jeff Dujon:
''Nice to see you so close up, Duj. Whenever I was batting, you were 35 yards behind the stumps!''

Cook to get a good innings then, everyone thinks hes back to his 2011 standard and then his next 10 innings are typical Alistar Cook innings of under 10. God I hope he doesn't get 50. 

Happy for Trott though. Hope he goes on to get a big store.

Nice to see a good opening partneship so far. A lot of talk about making 500, which is a bit premature as England's record in even getting to 400 is not too good. Let's see how we go today, one of Cook or Trott now needs to go on to a big score - easier said than done having to start again later

Decent day's work for England overall, with the exception of the last wicket stand.

Pleased to see Broad show his worth AGAIN. Frankly fed up of all the negativity surrounding him. Since 2011 he has averaged around 26 with the ball which is very good, with only 2012 averaging over 30 (31.7). He also bowled some good spells in the last match. I know people don't like his demeanour etc. but I was reading on twitter that he should be dropped for Plunkett which is frankly ludicrous.

Samuels's shot to get out I thought summed up his innings.
I agree with VTR that talk of 500 is miles off. England's first task is to get up to and beyond the West Indies total and build from there. Of course the overall aim will be to bat for another 4+ sessions and then set about bowling the West Indies out again, but they won't be getting ahead of themselves.

Cook and Trott have played nicely. Cook seems to be moving well again whilst Trott particularly towards the end played some of those trademark clips to leg from off/middle and off which will bring back fond memories for England fans.

However just as much as the previous game wasn't in itself an indication that Trott shouldn't open and Cook should be dropped, I wouldn't want to read too much into this short session either. Both were helped by the bowling which was to be frank absolute rubbish. I have rarely seen such a poor display with the new ball, that is not an exaggeration. Gabriel was awful and bowled how many no-balls. Roach was little better and even Holder had no consistency (and what consistency he did have was too short and too wide). I was surprised they didn't use more of the short stuff against Trott also.

Bishoo looked OK, he might cause a few problems. He has a wrong'un which I can pick from behind but may be harder from in front (and England won't have seen much of him); bowls with more overspin than side-spin and needs to be wary not to be too floaty on this pitch.

NickisBHAFC wrote:Cook to get a good innings then, everyone thinks hes back to his 2011 standard and then his next 10 innings are typical Alistar Cook innings of under 10. God I hope he doesn't get 50. 

Happy for Trott though. Hope he goes on to get a big store.

So you would actively rather see him fail than succeed?

That is the problem with so called fans of any England side regardless of sport, they're constantly looking for negatives instead of hoping for positives, i'd far rather see Cook get a decent score and hope his subsequent form improves.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

NickisBHAFC wrote:Cook to get a good innings then, everyone thinks hes back to his 2011 standard and then his next 10 innings are typical Alistar Cook innings of under 10. God I hope he doesn't get 50. 

Happy for Trott though. Hope he goes on to get a big store.

So you would actively rather see him fail than succeed?

That is the problem with so called fans of any England side regardless of sport, they're constantly looking for negatives instead of hoping for positives, i'd far rather see Cook get a decent score and hope his subsequent form improves.

I can see why he would want Cook to fail, as we have loads of talented openers waiting to replace a man with over 8000 test runs.

Stella wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

NickisBHAFC wrote:Cook to get a good innings then, everyone thinks hes back to his 2011 standard and then his next 10 innings are typical Alistar Cook innings of under 10. God I hope he doesn't get 50. 

Happy for Trott though. Hope he goes on to get a big store.

So you would actively rather see him fail than succeed?

That is the problem with so called fans of any England side regardless of sport, they're constantly looking for negatives instead of hoping for positives, i'd far rather see Cook get a decent score and hope his subsequent form improves.

I can see why he would want Cook to fail, as we have loads of talented openers waiting to replace a man with over 8000 test runs.

I think its fair to question Cook's form, but actively hoping the England captain, or any player for that matter fails? Err, no....

VTR wrote:

Stella wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

NickisBHAFC wrote:Cook to get a good innings then, everyone thinks hes back to his 2011 standard and then his next 10 innings are typical Alistar Cook innings of under 10. God I hope he doesn't get 50. 

Happy for Trott though. Hope he goes on to get a big store.

So you would actively rather see him fail than succeed?

That is the problem with so called fans of any England side regardless of sport, they're constantly looking for negatives instead of hoping for positives, i'd far rather see Cook get a decent score and hope his subsequent form improves.

I can see why he would want Cook to fail, as we have loads of talented openers waiting to replace a man with over 8000 test runs.

I think its fair to question Cook's form, but actively hoping the England captain, or any player for that matter fails? Err, no....

Definitely fair to question any player, but yes, I don't see why you would want a player with Cook's pedigree to fail.

Also it was very odd that he wants Cook to fail whilst Trott (basically in identical form and position to Cook) he wants to succeed.

VTR and Mike are of course right that we shouldn't be getting ahead of ourselves and thinking of 500 at this stage. However, it is pretty difficult to resist that temptation when you consider the lack of quality and experience of the bowlers England are facing.

The injured Taylor is desperately missed. To the extent that any of the current West Indies front line bowlers belong in a Test side, each should be in a five man attack as no better than the fourth bowler. Bishoo is an improvement on Benn and probably the best of the lot, appearing to have some promise ... but weren't we saying that a couple of years ago?

Accordingly, I do feel that England's innings is now very much down to England. Either they kick on or they muck up. A good sound and sensible start yesterday from Cook and Trott suggests it just could be the former.

VTR wrote:

Stella wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

NickisBHAFC wrote:Cook to get a good innings then, everyone thinks hes back to his 2011 standard and then his next 10 innings are typical Alistar Cook innings of under 10. God I hope he doesn't get 50. 

Happy for Trott though. Hope he goes on to get a big store.

So you would actively rather see him fail than succeed?

That is the problem with so called fans of any England side regardless of sport, they're constantly looking for negatives instead of hoping for positives, i'd far rather see Cook get a decent score and hope his subsequent form improves.

I can see why he would want Cook to fail, as we have loads of talented openers waiting to replace a man with over 8000 test runs.

I think its fair to question Cook's form, but actively hoping the England captain, or any player for that matter fails? Err, no....

Nick should be thankful he didn't have to endure Atherton and Hussein for well over a decade where Cooks current poor form would be a high point for them.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

VTR wrote:

Stella wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

NickisBHAFC wrote:Cook to get a good innings then, everyone thinks hes back to his 2011 standard and then his next 10 innings are typical Alistar Cook innings of under 10. God I hope he doesn't get 50. 

Happy for Trott though. Hope he goes on to get a big store.

So you would actively rather see him fail than succeed?

That is the problem with so called fans of any England side regardless of sport, they're constantly looking for negatives instead of hoping for positives, i'd far rather see Cook get a decent score and hope his subsequent form improves.

I can see why he would want Cook to fail, as we have loads of talented openers waiting to replace a man with over 8000 test runs.

I think its fair to question Cook's form, but actively hoping the England captain, or any player for that matter fails? Err, no....

Nick should be thankful he didn't have to endure Atherton and Hussein for well over a decade where Cooks current poor form would be a high point for them.

I think his punishment for such a statement should being forced to watch, Clockwork Orange-style, the entirety of the 1999 home series vs New Zealand so he can take in the delights of cricketers such as Aftab Habib, Darren Maddy and Ronnie Irani

Oh god the memories of Chris Adams and Darren Maddy in the same team.

24 off 120 balls! Paul Adams going at under 2 per over! And we (sometimes) complain of slow scoring now!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63862.html

Mike Selig wrote:Oh god the memories of Chris Adams and Darren Maddy in the same team.

24 off 120 balls! Paul Adams going at under 2 per over! And we (sometimes) complain of slow scoring now!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63862.html

Bleugh, I've just been sick on my keyboard! It has to be time to wheel out my all time favourite though. Look at the tail on that!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63844.html

I do remember thinking that nothing could top Fraser, Malcolm and Tuffnel (Aus 94-95) and then... yeah that happened. In fairness not the worse bowling attack when they could be bothered, but the batting in that game... urgh.

Anyway cricket about to start...

Fraser was a top bowler!

Mike Selig wrote:Oh god the memories of Chris Adams and Darren Maddy in the same team.

24 off 120 balls! Paul Adams going at under 2 per over! And we (sometimes) complain of slow scoring now!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63862.html

366 after two whole days of batting (minus all over 13 overs) is pathetic, I remember that game quite well, Caddick running through them then being over used in the second innings because he alone was our bowling threat. The pitch wasn't even that bad, nobody aside from Stewart seemed capable of playing an aggressive shot.

Those batting line ups without Thorpey were awful, a little bit later we had the delight that was Ian Ward, completely inept at playing straight.

VTR wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:Oh god the memories of Chris Adams and Darren Maddy in the same team.

24 off 120 balls! Paul Adams going at under 2 per over! And we (sometimes) complain of slow scoring now!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63862.html

Bleugh, I've just been sick on my keyboard! It has to be time to wheel out my all time favourite though. Look at the tail on that!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63844.html

Caddick at 8?

Someone other than Tuffers coming in at 11?

For all we are sometimes critical of England's selections now, we're in something of a better place when we have Jimmy at 11 and Broad at 10. OK, maybe we could afford to pick a pure bowler rather than any of Ali, Stokes or Jordan, but even then it would be a gazillion times stronger than that side...

Anyway, back to today - my hope is that Cook and Trott just keep accumulating runs for as long as they want. Let's wait until we are in the lead on first innings before we even think about run rate and looking to set up a winning position.

This opening pair just doesn't work for me, i've always preferred to see at least one shot player opening like a Trescothick, having two accumulators makes progress far too slow.

VTR wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:Oh god the memories of Chris Adams and Darren Maddy in the same team.

24 off 120 balls! Paul Adams going at under 2 per over! And we (sometimes) complain of slow scoring now!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63862.html

Bleugh, I've just been sick on my keyboard! It has to be time to wheel out my all time favourite though. Look at the tail on that!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63844.html

Ah yes ...I remember it well

Poor Mullally must have been dizzy ...actually seeing two batsmen going in after him...

To the present : solid if unspectacular first 90 minutes... Lots of milestones - first hundred opening stand for England in a tick over two years ; fifty each - not to mention avoiding the follow on

Plenty of time to speed things up later , so I think England will be well pleased with their morning so far. And nice to see the sun out in Grenada.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:This opening pair just doesn't work for me, i've always preferred to see at least one shot player opening like a Trescothick, having two accumulators makes progress far too slow.

In an ideal world , certainly. But sadly no Trescothick handy at present...I see Hales made a big double the other day : would be lovely if he could make the step to the long game at the top level - but so far he has struggled to take his t20 form to the fifty over caper...

Maybe one of these Yorkshire chaps will get a chance to show what they can do sooner or later.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:This opening pair just doesn't work for me, i've always preferred to see at least one shot player opening like a Trescothick, having two accumulators makes progress far too slow.

I definitely agree with this. It needs the balance of defence and attack ans the scoreboard does not tick over with two slow scoring openers and pressure is allowed to build. The problem is finding the ideal foil for Cook.

Beats me why this Bishoo didn't play in Antigua...looks a far better bowler than Benn.

That was close !

Good review , as lbw reviews go. Don't blame the umpire turning it down as he came a fair way forward. But Cook will appreciate some good fortune.

The review system still baffles me, looking at it in real time it looks out and it is in fact out but to allow the umpire to save face we have this ridiculous umpires call. If you're using technology like Hawkeye you either trust it 100% like they do in Tennis or don't use it at all, then again this argument has been ongoing since it's introduction.

Ouch ! Bet that hurt !

Then again it saved four

Bishoo owes his short leg fieldsman a beer ...

Lunch at 143/1.

Slow ; but a platform has been built.

I'm off ...Craig , Hammers...keep them concentrating ...

After lunch they should look to up the run rate. If not this match will meander to a tame draw. England need to score quicker not just to try to force a result here but also to get out of a bad habit. Slow scoring is not what they want to fall into with an Ashes series just around the corner.

CaledonianCraig wrote:After lunch they should look to up the run rate. If not this match will meander to a tame draw. England need to score quicker not just to try to force a result here but also to get out of a bad habit. Slow scoring is not what they want to fall into with an Ashes series just around the corner.

There's 2 and a half more days left - the only way we really win this match is batting once - no time pressure whatsoever