West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

First topic message reminder :

20 wickets is the key to winning test matches, and we saw in Antigua that it's easier said that done, even against this so called 'mediocre' West Indies team. True, the pitch died and became easier to bat on, but we lacked variety, and bite.

So who comes in?

Rashid/Ali or Wood for Tredwell or Jordan?

Tredwell did take four in the first innings, but will more than likely tie an end up, than clean up. Jordan is similar, and with Greneda more prone to spin, I can see one of the two spinners replacing the latter.

Lyth/Ali for Trott?

Trott had a stinker, but received a couple of good deliveries, and will be harshly dropped, after his first game back. Some have mentioned Ali to open, though this won't happen, imho.

The likely XI

Cook
Trott
Ballance
Bell
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Ali/Rashid
Tredwell
Broad
Anderson

Oops ..Jordan run out. Just.

Pity. He was adding useful runs.

Or is he ? Taking forever...

Yes , at last. Think correct ; but if it takes that long surely the TV umpire must have some doubts ?

Not a lot of batting left now : so the "big lead , bat once" plan appears to be off the table...might not be altogether a bad thing as it moves the game along. We shall see.

150 for Root

Like the way he goes on with it once he has the attack at his mercy...rather Thorpe-like.

Loses Broad though...Bishoo has four

Great innings by Root - continuing to bat very intelligently despite the very patchy support at the other end since Ballance was out.

Yes Cpl ; another reason I like Root at five - he bats well with the tail
(although admittedly today they haven't supported him all that much)

Mind you Jimmy is sticking with him for now...perhaps remembering their big partnership against India a few months ago.
Rather doubt they'll threaten that record today

Interesting graphic from the BBC - batsmen with 4 or more scores of 150+ before the age of 25. Joe is in pretty good company:
Bradman (well obviously, is there a high scoring record he isn't in?)
Tendulkar
Neil Harvey
Sobers
Miandad
Jayawardene
Viv Richards
Graeme Smith

So 4 undisputed legends of the game and 4 who you would at least class as very good...

In fact all over ...with another run out.

Did Jimmy not realize Holder had gathered that ball ? No stretch...

Ah well , 165 lead is decent. 90 off twenty overs this morning.

Really well played Joe Root

Funny cricket > good cricket

amateur from Anderson, seemed to think Holder wouldn't get to the throw, but that really would have been a bit embarrassing from even a club cricketer. Root rightly annoyed, but he's played an absolutely superb innings here

Good thing is that allows Anderson and Broad to have a quick burst before lunch.

England folded rather quickly there. But because they batted positively, they have a very fine lead and lots of time to play with. Will be very difficult for the WI to save this one.

Not much pressure then Joe being in that group, only the four guaranteed greatest XI in test history with three national legends and Neil Harvey.

Will add that the supposed long batting line up doesn't look so long now.

Looking back through the wickets , England actually gifted most of them ; either through silly shots or dopey running. The innings subsided rather quicker and cheaper than it perhaps should have.
But as MFC and msp say , the situation is probably one they'd have been happy to reach after the West Indies first innings ended.

If the weather isn't too unkind , a result is well possible here. But there really isn't anything for the bowlers in the pitch so I reckon it might be hard work taking ten wickets ...I don't expect West Indies to contribute three run outs

there's the first one. new ball definitely swinging, so crucial that England make some early inroads here.

guildfordbat wrote:

kingraf wrote:So overall, England's day, but the draw is still where the smart money is. If Windies keep the lead to round 100, they should back themselves to bat out, say 100 overs. From there, it would be interesting to see if England think they can chase maybe 220 in 60 odd overs on a day fiver.

Hi Raf - haven't seen a lot of this Test but from what I have and as long as the rain largely stays away, I would tell Olly (he's the betting one of the Surrey boys) to put his money on an England win. We certainly haven't been without faults in this match but I feel, despite some of the comments about slow batting, that we've moved things on enough and are sufficiently ahead. I'm reckoning we'll have a first innings lead of circa 120 - 150 with 5 sessions to follow. In my book that will bé long enough to bowl them out a second time and chase down the likely type of toal required. Despite the stodge at the top of the order, England have got several biffers if needed for a late run chase.

 

Haven't seen any of today's play so far but happy to stick with this call from first thing this (UK) morning.

A very well done to Root. Alfie makes an excellent point that he bats so well with the tail. That's a valuable and not that common skill. If you'll permit me to digress here momentarily and wear my Surrey hat, that was something Tom Maynard was really good at which led some senior figures at the Oval to believe that an England career beckoned.

Devon Smith is really really poor. That 65 doing more damage than good to the side. Bravo and Brathwaite, England would want to get them packing soon. Brathwaite is a batsman who loves batting long, and Bravo, if he bats long, that led could quickly go away.

I don't understand that experiment when the ball is swinging keep Anderson on.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't understand that experiment when the ball is swinging keep Anderson on.

Well Broad off , actually. But it is just the one over...ball should still be swinging after lunch - for a little while.
Probably worth trying just before the break...as it happens cost ten runs ; but that edge just might have gone to hand...


Having taken a wicket in that short burst , England probably not too bothered their innings ended so clumsily a bit earlier than it might...though it would have been nice to see young Joe get a double.

Still a lot of hard work ahead to get the other nine...

Bravo needs a knock here. West Indies have had a batsman stand up each innings so far.

If cricket had a gymnastic points system for style, Bravo would be pretty close to the top of the player charts. So whippy, so cool and so exaggerated. I do love watching Darren bat

Mike Selig wrote:I thought the send-off was a bit childish, but quite amusing in its own way. I don't take any issues with it, and descriptions of it as "the most cowardly act in cricket" (Steve James, telegraph unsurprisingly) seem to be somewhat lacking in perspective.

Guildford, the number of times I have heard "we will see [x,y,z] replicated in junior cricket" yet by and large it has completely failed to happen and the sky hasn't caved in. I am thinking of things like how the DRS system was going to see kids make the "review" gesture every time they disagreed with a decision, mankads were apparently going to become prevalent after Buttler had a brain freeze (or was trying to gain an unfair advantage, depending on how much credit you want to give him), sledging etc. etc.

As a coach of young players myself, I value the spirit of the game, but for me the spirit of cricket can be summed up as respect - of your team-mates, the umpires, the opposition, the spectators. I try to impart these values onto teams I coach, and it is always amazing to me how well all the teams get on at junior tournaments (car park cricket becomes a feature). Competitive on the field, but great times off it.

Sometimes we overstep the mark sure. Send-offs (aggressive ones) do happen, and when they do you deal with it. But the sky doesn't fall, and the game continues.

Juniors are surprisingly perceptive. They don't just copy behaviour they see mindlessly.

Mike - I only had a chance to quickly glance at this post before heading out earlier. Having formed a reply in my head whilst away, I've now re-read it and see how annoyingly well written it was. I was looking forward to telling you how the actions of top players can influence young players, as evidenced by yours truly the best of half a century ago attempting to copy Sobers and hit six sixes off an over (failing miserably but the attempt was made).

I now notice that you weren't saying youngsters don't point blank refuse to copy but were instead emphasising how ''surprisingly perceptive'' they can be in deciding what to try and emulate. You may be right and I hope you are. Maybe then I'm bothered unnecessarily but I would still question whether there was any real need for Samuels' action. Btw, I don't side with James - not for the first time, he overeggs the pudding and as a result weakens the argument.

I note Raf did mention it, and also note Guildford's post above, but in general, when people start talking about Samuels, don't forget we need to start from James Anderson and his sendoff to Samuels.......

Both actions were not to my taste, but I can live with it.

The Windies have gotten the deficit under 100 for the Loss of only one stick. They'll take that. If they completely remove the deficit for, say two down. They'll be ecstatic. Darren Bravo going through the gears very well. And by that, of course, I mean he's respecting the good balls, and treating anything Stokes bowls with the disdain his uncle once removed would have.

The West Indies maintaining a decent tempo to the innings, but both batsmen not looking fully settled. They haven't offered a clear chance as such, but they have had their moments of uncertainty.
Stokes going for a few runs, though he has created a few testing moments for the batsman.

Half-century up for Kraigg Brathwaite.

This isn't looking too good for England. I just don't see where twenty wickets are coming from with this attack. Stokes and Jordan just aren't threatening and Ali has bowled like a drain

VTR wrote:This isn't looking too good for England. I just don't see where twenty wickets are coming from with this attack. Stokes and Jordan just aren't threatening and Ali has bowled like a drain

I still reckon there's enough time for them to come ... and even if there isn't, it's Olly's money not mine that I've put on the win!

Said it before and I'll say it again. Time is the most precious commodity in test cricket. Average is secondary to strike rate. And England lack, across the entire team, a player who you can go - right, almost guaranteed a wicket a spell. All rather industrial, and samey, the attack. Ali is the possible exception, has a good doosra, drifts it, can certainly bowl through teams potentially... But then England have to decide that's his portion. He can't chase being a genuine Batter while trying to be a frontline out and out spin option.

Funny how sport can work - the Windies have done nigh on nothing in tests for the last few years, England come around (think the Windies have lost one home series against you lot in 40 years?) and they remember how to spell obdurate.

Let's face it this pitch is totally docile. Many of the wickets to fall in this match have been play on's or run-outs - that tells you along what it is offering the bowlers.

Marlon Samuels has his ego with him today. Could be an interesting final session.

Joe Root has bowled twelve on the trot now. Hasn't gone for much, but in a situation where time, and not runs are your biggest worry, maybe not the brightest captaincy

Despite my grumbling about the Samuels salute, liked this comment on cricinfo:
''A Red Arrows flypast has been arranged to coincide with Marlon's dismissal.''

guildfordbat wrote:Despite my grumbling about the Samuels salute, liked this comment on cricinfo:
''A Red Arrows flypast has been arranged to coincide with Marlon's dismissal.''

End of the day about the salute - well Stokes (if he didn't like it) shouldn't dish it out with sledging. Like I say if you can hand it out you have to be prepared to take it.

Should give Broad/Anderson 3-4 overs each to end the day here

Review against Brathwaite here. Jordan close to a no-ball there.

Looked like a review in hope more than anything else, and its not out.

Not only has he hit it, also going over - rubbish

Right give broad/Anderson a few to end the day now

This has been terrible by England and Cook, persisting far too long with plans that aren't working, slowing the game down when we needed it to hurry up.

Hundred for Brathwaite!!!.

So West Indies 202-2, and that's stumps on day 4.

First off, very well played Brathwaite. Tremendous effort in concentration and dedication. Terrific knock.

Apart from that I watched most of the afternoon and all of the evening and it was frankly some of the most boring cricket I have ever seen. The players are not to blame. West Indies are to all intents and purposes playing for the draw, which any side in their position would do. They have done so admirably so far. England toiled and toiled and toiled, and tried plenty. With the exception of Ali who was too inconsistent they bowled pretty well really - Jordan is at time frustrating because he will back up 3 or 4 excellent balls with one in hopelessly the wrong place, but he looked perhaps the most threatening. Cook captained pretty well, moved his bowlers around, tried to create things with his field.

The pitch is awful. You could say England lack real pace (they do) and possibly some mystery spin (although Ali is far from classical). Raf is right, their attack is a bit "samey" (and this isn't really the selectors fault either; the guys playing are almost certainly the best available) but let's not pretend that would have made that much difference.

Today's cricket was frankly the best advertisement the IPL could have wished for. And the teams are not to blame in the slightest. I'm sorry if that sounds grumpy or like sour grapes. It is the former but not I think the latter.

Again just want to say how well Brathwaite has played. But that doesn't invalidate the rest of my post.

Yep, this is the most boring test series I can remember. Test cricket will certainly die out everywhere but England and As, if it isn't anyway, at this rate

Absolute rubbish

Let's have a sense of perspective, though. Yesterday was nigh on dreadful... But Test cricket is not dying out. It was a bad day. But even football gets those. NZ vs Sri Lanka had, by Kiwi standards, huge test crowds. Aus vs India was as expected pretty big. And even SA vs WI had sellout crowds for five or six days of cricket, and a few 15k days as well. The crowds for SA vs India will almost certainly be interested....

I agree though, Test cricket is the inverse of limited overs. People don't come for five days of batting. They come to watch bowlers running through teams, maybe a bit of chin music, some good counter attacking batting. NOT 22 wickets in four days.

Anyway, like I said a day ago, DRAW.

Flat pitch , time lost to rain , one team mainly out to defend their position and the other lacking a real strike weapon . . . All combines to produce what has been , admittedly , a rather boring game. (With due respect to some very fine batting from Roo and Brathwaite nonetheless)
However the first Test , though it ended in a draw , was actually quite a good game - with an exciting last day for anyone who doesn't believe cricket has to be played at a hundred miles per hour. Not that you want to have every match like that ; but I had no complaints and don't think the paying public did either.
This one , though , surely didn't need to be played on such a lifeless pudding : no wonder it is only the third Test played in Grenada ...one is tempted to think the scheduling of Tests in West Indies has a lot more to do with trying to boost local tourist numbers with a cricket match as incidental fodder ; a strategy that will in any case founder over time if the cricket becomes seen as not worth attending.
And this match has had "bore draw" written all over it from day one.

Of course if the last day produces a clatter of wickets and an exciting run chase much will be forgiven - but I'm not holding my breath

I seem to have enjoyed this Test a lot more than most here. Mind you, I am sure the reason for that is significant - I've not been able to watch much of it at all and so my following has largely been confined to cricinfo.

I therefore haven't had to suffer the continuing sight of a lifeless wicket but have instead been surprised and impressed by the resolve of the West Indies batsmen - and obviously Brathwaite in particular - as shown statistically.

I appreciate you are not going to sell cricket to the public on the basis of a cricinfo showing. However, part of the West Indies' decline as a Test team has been the lack of application of too many individuals. Gayle's ability allied with Sammy's application could have produced a cricketer to rival Bradman; sadly for the West Indies, in recent years the mix has been the other way round.

If the West Indies are ever to recover and return to good - never mind, great - Test health, it is not going to happen overnight. They will need to grind days out and stop the losing habit. So, I understand that by itself yesterday was pretty tiresome for those watching on tv. However, I am prepared for you guys to suffer that if it helps lead to something better. I'm too long in the tooth to get excited by one swallow but four separate centurions in the last four innings suggests there might at least be hope.

I also still wouldn't write this Test off quite yet. Whilst Raf waits outside the bookies to collect his money from the draw, a couple of early wickets would change the complexion of the game and might even introduce some excitement. Failing that, I'll tune in from time to time on cricinfo and derive some satisfaction from a battling rearguard action whilst the rest of you have to put up with the sight of a pudding of a pitch.

Good point , guildford.

Much as I would like to see England ripping through the West Indies batting (especially bleary eyed at inhospitable hours of the morning !) , I have to admit to deriving some pleasure from seeing the resolve displayed by West Indies unheralded batsmen - and players generally. The contrast with some of the recent "don't really seem to care" attitudes displayed (even if some of that may have been slightly exaggerated in the meda) is quite significant. I think Test Cricket does need a strong - or at least competitive - West Indies ; and we may be seeing a few small steps on the way back...At the least , they seem to have unearthed a couple of players of character ; which is arguably the most important factor.

Still reckon they need to produce pitches with a little more life - or at least that deteriorate over the last couple of days. No problem with the odd hard-fought draw , but no one wants constant stalemates : like Pakistan-India last century...

alfie wrote:Flat pitch , time lost to rain , one team mainly out to defend their position and the other lacking a real strike weapon  . . . All combines to produce what has been , admittedly , a rather boring game. (With due respect to some very fine batting from Roo and Brathwaite nonetheless)
However the first Test , though it ended in a draw , was actually quite a good game - with an exciting last day for anyone who doesn't believe cricket has to be played at a hundred miles per hour. Not that you want to have every match like that ; but I had no complaints and don't think the paying public did either.
This one , though , surely didn't need to be played on such a lifeless pudding : no wonder it is only the third Test played in Grenada ...one is tempted to think the scheduling of Tests in West Indies has a lot more to do with trying to boost local tourist numbers with a cricket match as incidental fodder ; a strategy that will in any case founder over time if the cricket becomes seen as not worth attending.
And this match has had "bore draw" written all over it from day one.

Of course if the last day produces a clatter of wickets and an exciting run chase much will be forgiven - but I'm not holding my breath

Pretty much spot on.

Well, not many were complaining on day 3 when Trott/Cook/Ballance/Root were scoring all those runs on a lifeless track. Not suggesting for a moment that the wicket is a good one for test cricket, its been the rain and the cloud cover that made it tough for the WI batsmen in the first innings, otherwise the track has been a terrible one.
Root's and Brathwaite's innings still stand out though. Root scored at a strike rate of 80 without taking much risk with a slow outfield to counter. And he batted pretty well with the lower order.
Brathwaite's knock has come on the back of his side giving away a 165 run lead and then he lost his opening partner quickly. He showed great resolve in compiling a fine hundred and seeing the day through calmly. The lad is all of 22 lets not forget, and in the last 12 months, he has scored all 4 of his test hundreds. Hope there is many more to come.
The pitch isn't a good one for test cricket, but both bowling units haven't helped themselves. For England, Anderson and Broad weren't able to retain intensity for long. Both Stokes and Jordan bowled on both sides of the wicket and their length wasn't as consistent as it should have been. Ali has had no real effect either. And along with the lifeless pitch, his inconsistency with line and length contributed to his failure.