Welsh World Cup Squad

First topic message reminder :

Dragons not playing until tomorrow and quiet on here so just wondered what early thoughts are on the Welsh WC squad.  I think a lot of it will pick itself unless injury or shock retirements dictate.  I have gone with a 30 man squad 16/14 forwards/back split same as last world cup so here's my thought.

Here's the 47 man Training Squad, Players in bold are the ones I think are already inked in:

Props (5) JENKINS,JAMES,LEE, Evans, Francis, Jarvis, Andrews
Hookers (3) BALDWIN,OWENS, Dacey
2 Row (3) AWJ, CHARTERIS, Ball, Davies, Day
Backrow (5) FALETAU, WARBURTON, LYDIATE, TIPURIC,Moriarty, King

No9s (3) WEBB, Davies, Ll Williams
No10s (3) BIGGAR, PRIESTLAND, Anscombe, Morgan
Centres (3) ROBERTS, Sc WILLIAMS, Morgan, Allen
Back 3 (5) NORTH, HALFPENNY, Li WILLIAMS, Cuthbert, Walker, Amos, James (Then 2 from Cuthbert, Amos, Walker) For me Cuthbert and Amos

As I said the ones in Bold are the ones I feel are already pencilled in to go. Updated squad as we stand now

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

offload wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:Bedford I am a front rower. I watched Samson Lee two years before his debut, he demolished the NZ front row in the JWC and did the same against most pro 12 sides when he broke through. But I have never seen him do what Francis did to a player of corbisiero's quality yesterday. Corbisiero was trying everything, going low, turning in, binding on the arm, it did not matter the kid had him in his pocket. Make no mistake if we don't cap him and soon England will

I'm not a front rower and not my area of expertise.  I thought Francis did really well yesterday (as did the whole Exeter pack) but I also can see that Corbisiero is badly lacking form.  Leicester also gave Exeter (including Francis) a good hiding in the scrum recently.  I think Francis has said he's ready to commit to Wales and I also think we should move quickly, but I'm not sure we should big him up too much just yet. He's got such little top level experience to carry into the WC.

An Exeter fan has recently stated that Francis didn't play in that game as he pulled up with n injury before kick off.

He has came on 100% this season and is a true dominant scrummager in the Adam Jones mould. His work in the loose is decent but he's a big unit and tires quickly. I'm hoping SL brings him into the England set-up as he's better than Kieran Brookes.

Thats why really think we missed a trick by not capping him against Italy.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

offload wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:Bedford I am a front rower. I watched Samson Lee two years before his debut, he demolished the NZ front row in the JWC and did the same against most pro 12 sides when he broke through. But I have never seen him do what Francis did to a player of corbisiero's quality yesterday. Corbisiero was trying everything, going low, turning in, binding on the arm, it did not matter the kid had him in his pocket. Make no mistake if we don't cap him and soon England will

I'm not a front rower and not my area of expertise.  I thought Francis did really well yesterday (as did the whole Exeter pack) but I also can see that Corbisiero is badly lacking form.  Leicester also gave Exeter (including Francis) a good hiding in the scrum recently.  I think Francis has said he's ready to commit to Wales and I also think we should move quickly, but I'm not sure we should big him up too much just yet. He's got such little top level experience to carry into the WC.

An Exeter fan has recently stated that Francis didn't play in that game as he pulled up with n injury before kick off.

He has came on 100% this season and is a true dominant scrummager in the Adam Jones mould. His work in the loose is decent but he's a big unit and tires quickly. I'm hoping SL brings him into the England set-up as he's better than Kieran Brookes.

Thats why really think we missed a trick by not capping him against Italy.

He's English end of the day but he maybe feels he owes Gatland something for getting him involved? I did read a quote saying he "it felt right" whatever that inclines, Baxter seems to think he's English and may push him down that route.

I read he didn't want a cap just to tie him to Wales, perhaps this is why he didn't play against Italy?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

offload wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:Bedford I am a front rower. I watched Samson Lee two years before his debut, he demolished the NZ front row in the JWC and did the same against most pro 12 sides when he broke through. But I have never seen him do what Francis did to a player of corbisiero's quality yesterday. Corbisiero was trying everything, going low, turning in, binding on the arm, it did not matter the kid had him in his pocket. Make no mistake if we don't cap him and soon England will

I'm not a front rower and not my area of expertise.  I thought Francis did really well yesterday (as did the whole Exeter pack) but I also can see that Corbisiero is badly lacking form.  Leicester also gave Exeter (including Francis) a good hiding in the scrum recently.  I think Francis has said he's ready to commit to Wales and I also think we should move quickly, but I'm not sure we should big him up too much just yet. He's got such little top level experience to carry into the WC.

An Exeter fan has recently stated that Francis didn't play in that game as he pulled up with n injury before kick off.

He has came on 100% this season and is a true dominant scrummager in the Adam Jones mould. His work in the loose is decent but he's a big unit and tires quickly. I'm hoping SL brings him into the England set-up as he's better than Kieran Brookes.

Thats why really think we missed a trick by not capping him against Italy.

He's English end of the day but he maybe feels he owes Gatland something for getting him involved? I did read a quote saying he "it felt right" whatever that inclines, Baxter seems to think he's English and may push him down that route.

I read he didn't want a cap just to tie him to Wales, perhaps this is why he didn't play against Italy?

He maybe English but he qualifies for Wales to as the rules stand (Like them or not), if he didn't want to get tied then surely he shouldn't have accepted the other to train in the first place.

Gatland tends (blindly sometimes) to show loyalty and given that Andrews had been involved in previous games/squads I think that is more likely the reason he wasn't capped against Italy. Who knows but I still think it's a chance missed unless he now gets capped in the warm up games.

I'm not disagreeing with the rules Bedford, I'm just saying he's English and a Yorkshireman which makes him English x 2.

Perhaps if SL come knocking on his door he might change his mind?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not disagreeing with the rules Bedford, I'm just saying he's English and a Yorkshireman which makes him English x 2.

Perhaps if SL come knocking on his door he might change his mind?

Maybe he thinks that SL won't come knocking that's why he choose to go with the Welsh set up, though after seeing him perform against Saints on the weekend I would be surprised if SL doesn't at least speak to him.

If he does then I guess it's a case of whether he now feels he owes Gatland a bit of faith or not, without looking I wonder whose has a WC warm up game first Wales or England.

It's an interesting situation BF, he's got a lot potential.

Francis is this years Ben Morgan

Sgt_Pooly wrote: He's English end of the day but he maybe feels he owes Gatland something for getting him involved? I did read a quote saying he "it felt right" whatever that inclines, Baxter seems to think he's English and may push him down that route.

I read he didn't want a cap just to tie him to Wales, perhaps this is why he didn't play against Italy?

I think these situations are very personal and the individual has to make a choice.  Although I was born in Wales and consider myself Welsh I am also "qualified" to represent England and Ireland, although I can't ever imagine wanting to.  (I was a bit c**p too so it didn't matter). Francis is a young lad who finds himself eligible for two countries.  It's a big choice, but one he has to make.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Francis is this years Ben Morgan

Haha, he certainly is. Although this time he's English and as far as I'm aware has never played in Wales. He's been bloody poached! Fair play

I think the English clubs will do us over. They have an agreement to let their players go with the England squad in June but can stop their Welsh players joining the Welsh squad until august.

I reckon we will see Mr Francis in an england shirt - hope i am wrong

You'd suspect if Lancaster made him a concrete offer we'd see him in England colours.

How long has Francis got on his contract at the Chiefs?

Didn't they do it many years back with Duncan Bell when he was playing for Ponty I think. As soon as we showed interest they capped him what 4/5 times then never again.

I do think this could be a problem of our own making though if he had been capped against Italy then none of this would matter.

Its all down to him now though and I guess as mentioned he feels that there is a place for him in the Welsh set up and if he felt comfortable in the environment during the week or so he was involved.

Why take the risk that a potentially top quality player goes on to play for one of your main rivals. If there was a Saxons game coming up i'd have him in just for that reason

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/11540643/Wales-look-set-to-beat-England-to-battle-for-Tomas-Franciss-services.html

BamBam wrote:Why take the risk that a potentially top quality player goes on to play for one of your main rivals. If there was a Saxons game coming up i'd have him in just for that reason

Looks like both SL and WG are taking risks, surely SL must have known we were interested so you have to ask yourself why didn't he get him involved in the English squad.

Likewise WG must have known it would raise eyebrows when we called him into squad so why wasn't he capped against Italy.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Didn't they do it  many years back with Duncan Bell when he was playing for Ponty I think.  As soon as we showed interest they capped him what  4/5 times then never again.

I do think this could be a problem of our own making though if he had been capped against Italy then none of this would matter.

Its all down to him now though and I guess as mentioned he feels that there is a place for him in the Welsh set up and if he felt comfortable in the environment during the week or so he was involved.

Didn't Bell refuse, but benchwarm for the Saxons (not even getting on the pitch). Then he moved to Bath, and stayed living here so he could serve his time, only to find out that he was not eligible.

Tom Francis

“If it came around then I would have to think about it again. I would be happy to speak to Stuart and I’m always happy to hear people out. But it would take quite a lot now to change my decision. I’m a loyal person and I’ve been to the Wales camp and made friends. My game style could help them out and I’d be part of a team there. It would be quite hard to change now.”

SS,

Thought he was capped as soon as we showed an interest but not sure I know he lived here still while at Bath but you maybe right I thought he went from Ebbw to Ponty which would have made him eligible but he went via Sale so that broke the link as such.

maestegmafia wrote:Tom Francis

“If it came around then I would have to think about it again. I would be happy to speak to Stuart and I’m always happy to hear people out. But it would take quite a lot now to change my decision. I’m a loyal person and I’ve been to the Wales camp and made friends. My game style could help them out and I’d be part of a team there. It would be quite hard to change now.”

That's reassuring to read Maes where was this quoted out of interest?

Interesting article, leaving the door open but also patting the ego of Gatland for more chances. Diplomatic. Interesting that unlike other dual qualified players he's nailed his colours to the door and said he's a Yorkshireman.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

BamBam wrote:Why take the risk that a potentially top quality player goes on to play for one of your main rivals. If there was a Saxons game coming up i'd have him in just for that reason

Looks like both SL and WG are taking risks, surely SL must have known we were interested so you have to ask yourself why didn't he get him involved in the English squad.

Likewise WG must have known it would raise eyebrows when we called him into squad so why wasn't he capped against Italy.

Wants to test his 'loyalty' maybe? But it's a dog-eat-dog world, he should have been capped against Italy.

Well given our considerable lack of options after Lee let hope it doesn't come back to bite us.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Tom Francis

“If it came around then I would have to think about it again. I would be happy to speak to Stuart and I’m always happy to hear people out. But it would take quite a lot now to change my decision. I’m a loyal person and I’ve been to the Wales camp and made friends. My game style could help them out and I’d be part of a team there. It would be quite hard to change now.”

That's reassuring to read Maes where was this quoted out of interest?

Telegraph

Link above

The Saint wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

BamBam wrote:Why take the risk that a potentially top quality player goes on to play for one of your main rivals. If there was a Saxons game coming up i'd have him in just for that reason

Looks like both SL and WG are taking risks, surely SL must have known we were interested so you have to ask yourself why didn't he get him involved in the English squad.

Likewise WG must have known it would raise eyebrows when we called him into squad so why wasn't he capped against Italy.

Wants to test his 'loyalty' maybe? But it's a dog-eat-dog world, he should have been capped against Italy.

Totally agree. Bench him, 10 minutes at the end job done.

maestegmafia wrote:

Really only hibbards that will be missed

I'm not so sure of that when considering his impact (or lack of) in the recent 6 Nations, and the hookers starting at all 4 regions. We'll still need him in the squad though I guess.

The Saint wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Really only hibbards that will be missed

I'm not so sure of that when considering his impact (or lack of) in the recent 6 Nations, and the hookers starting at all 4 regions. We'll still need him in the squad though I guess.

True... With Owend back in shape too we have some good options. As well as Dee and Davy...! We're in good shape.

Tight head is an issue but it is for most nations. Bar maybe France who always have two or three top quality number threes.

I would put Hibbard 3rd choice at the moment.

Possibly... But in form he could be first. Great to have the depth

maestegmafia wrote:Possibly... But in form he could be first. Great to have the depth

I'm not too sure on that to be honest.

Baldwin is risen just at the right time, a bit like Huw Bennett did. Hibbard may put in big hits, but they are say one every other game. And Ken does bring far more in the open game that either of the other two. So it is going to be interesting. Personally I would not be surprised to see Hibbard as being third choice, even on form, as Baldwin has form/confidence and the shirt right now, and Ken offers more when the game opens up.

If all were fit the for me Owen would be first choice, I think he has the best lineout throw and scrummaging game and is no slouch in the loose.

Baldwin really stepped up to the mark this year and took his chance with both hands and him and Charteris worked great together in the lineout.

Owens my first choice for his lineout throwing and carrying

Starting locks I guess are, again AWJ and Charteris, like 2011..

Jake Ball and big bad Brad as back ups? One may make way for a Backrow/lock like King

maestegmafia wrote:Starting locks I guess are, again AWJ and Charteris, like 2011..

Jake Ball and big bad Brad as back ups? One may make way for a Backrow/lock like King

Yeah he could take 3 specialists then a utility but after the 6 Nations I think AWJ and Charteris are back as 1st choice.

The balance of those selected outside of a constructed match day 23 for the final rwc squad is an interesting balance. You have to equate the necessities of each position for a rolling squad system rotating players when needed to keep them rested. Not that we get much rest with two big games in our pool.

Three props of each side. Do we need more than three locks or more than two hookers...? Maybe hookers but three locks should be enough.

Backrow of six, two for each of the three positions. Do we need that many backrowers? Could we take five?

Scrum half I would be keen on just two. Same as flyhalf.

Three centres, three wingers and a fullback

That's 27, (I think?).

Leaving three positions for utility players.

I think we'd need four locks... In case one drops out, then we can put another on the bench. Baldwin at hooker, AWJ and Charteris and 2nd row seems to be working quite well right now. I can't see Gats changing that. Owens and Ball on the bench for me, but they could play their way into the starting team quite easily.

So a first choice bench would contain who?

James
Owens
??
Ball
Tips
Davies
???

My original post was going off what he selected for the last WC just as a guide, someone also pointed out that there has been an increase to 31 for this WC - not sure on that.

5 props would seem right for me 3 loose 2 tight with James or Jenkins then covering tight if need be.

As for the t/head on the bench position then god only knows Maes, if Lee is fit then I guess it will be Jarvis going by recent selections.

As for the backs on the bench then for me it would be Davies, Priestland (still not convinced by Anscombe) and Sc Williams.

Let's just hope he caps Francis in the warm up games.

I suspect Anscombe will go to the World cup as he is on a central contract. He has looked poor at 10 for the Blues recently and not a lot better at 15, Patchell has looked better at both 10 and 15 and Davies better at 10!

Maybe with time he will make a top no 10 but at present he does not look anywhere near international quality at 10 or 15. He is clearly a talented runner, passer and goal kicker, he looks to me like an old fashioned NZ Second five eight (playmaking inside centre), but Wales and Gatland don't play that game and Roberts and Scott Williams are playing at the top of their game and are suited to Gatland ball.

I would also probably have him behind: Patchell, Hook and O Williams for the 3rd outside half or utility back place, but as I said, he is Gatland's man and on a central contract, so his place in the squad looks safe.

Of the young guys on the periphery of the RWC 31 man squad I would be keen to see Nicky Smith, Rhys Patchell and Hallam Amos included.

I think all three have shown themselves to have the ability and resolve to make the next level this season.

I will give up if Amos and Patchell are not considered. Is Baker the 2nd no8?

I would imagine baker, Amos and Patchel are all in

If Patchell wasn't in the squad when he playing well, why would he be in when currently injured? That's Gats though, I'd pick him. Quality player.

The extended training squad is named next week I believe.

What's happened to Jordan Williams. I don't see much Rugby apart from the 6N and Autumn or any highlights...I liked the look of him. Good feet.

iantobquick wrote:What's happened to Jordan Williams. I don't see much Rugby apart from the 6N and Autumn or any highlights...I liked the look of him. Good feet.

The Scarlets new kiwi coach prefers Harry Robinson to Jordan on the wing, the talk is Jordan is too small and doesn't give enough in defence.

Shame...mind you heard that before with other small wingers! Is Harry a shout at all? Would be good to see about more raw pace around the squad.

It depends what people judge as a shock/bolter selection.

I don't think there will be any real shock selections in the main WC party.

Amos has been in various squads in the past, Smith and Baker would have been in the 6 Nations if not for injury.

Francis wouldn't even be seen as a shock to me now given he was looked at during the 6 Nations.

I guess Tyler Morgan would be seen as a bolter but given he's on a DC would it really be a shock, likewise Anscombe.

Harry Robinson is committed, but is imo not regional standard, he lacks pace/strength

Bedford, I'm guessing under 5 caps, and not involved in any national squads before this season would be a bolter. But even then if it's someone with regular regional experience (Say Patchell) I wouldn't count him as a bolter either