England v Samoa - Who should play?

You are limited to the 28 man squad that Lancaster retained - what would be your team?

England Squad

Loose-head prop
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)

Tight-head prop
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hooker
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Lock
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Back row
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)(c)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Scrum half
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

Outside back
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Back three
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

LT,

We have seen Gatland swap and change for these games of ours and results have shown that but its a thin line as coaches have to blood new players/combinations but when to do it is the hard part.

What do you guys want or expect SL to do, go with pretty much same side try build momentum with a good big win or try new things out and risk stumbling to an unconvincing win (don't for 1 minute think you will lose)

I want to see ho wWebber goes against Samo and Australia - so to avoid too much disruption would keep the props. Morgan has to come in, and I would like to see someone else skipper against Samoa. Would love to see Ford and Eastmond both play - however Eastmond a real doubt. Watson was not good but should be given another chance so:

Marler, Webber, Wilson, Lawes, Attwood, Haskell, Wood (c), Morgan
Youngs, Ford, May, Barritt, Burrell, Watson, Brown.

I think Morgan has to start then again I would have always started him, reminds me of a good old fashioned Deano style No8.

When you say see someone else as skipper is that because you think Robshaw not going that well or just to see other options/injury cover etc.

Front-Row:

01. Mat Mullan
02. Rob Webber
03. Kieran Brookes

I know it is all change, but I want our first choice fit and ready to biff the Aussies. Wilson et al can stay on the bench in case things start getting hairy.

04. Lawes
05. Attwood

Need some continuity and the lineout went really well last week (mostly). Would be ready to bring Kruis on earlyish though.

06. James Haskell
07. Callum Clarke
08. Ben Morgan

I reckon Robshaw will be involved no matter what, but some of the alternatives desperately need an outing.

09. Danny Care
10. George Ford

Danny needs a chance to redeem himself. I was torn between Ford and Farrell because I believe Farrell could do with a chance to play himself back into form in a 'less' pressure game. On the other hand, Ford needs to be given a chance at some point.

12. ?
13. ?

Honestly depends who is fit!

11. Jonny May
14. Anthony Watson
15. Mike Brown

I mentioned the selection for this game on the Brian Moore thread - for me the team has to be a sort of 'mix and match' job with enough first choices in to aid continuity but giving a chance for some squad players to play and gain experience.

As such, I'd probably look at a staring XV something like:
Marler - Webber - Wilson
Lawes - Attwood
Haskell - Morgan - Robshaw

Care - Ford
May - Eastmond - Burrell - Watson
Brown.

So little change to the tight 5 (given that they are already other than Lawes the 2nd choices in each position), but looking for more from the back row and half backs.

Eastmond probably deserves another start with a more adventurous 10 (especially one he plays with at club level) and Burrell will offer mnre ball in hand than Barritt with only a slight drop in defensive quality. For me this looks a much more potent midfield.

Back 3 is still a lottery - not sure there is much point changing them when they haven't had much opportunity to do much so far..

1. Marler
2. Webber
3. Wilson
4. Attwood
5. Lawes
6. Haskell
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Twelvetrees
13. Burrell
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. Hartley
17. Mullen
18. Brookes
19. Kruis
20. Clarke (to come on for Robshaw at 60 min point, Haskell moving to 7)
21. Care
22. Farrell (preferably not used)
23. Yarde (to come on for Brown, at 50 min point with Watson moving to FB)

If we don't try another captain other than Robshaw this weekend, then when will we have a chance to do so?

Either rest Robshaw for this game or put him on the bench. Then give the armband to Hartley, Wood or Haskell. If the idea of doing that causes trepidation, then that should be sufficient reason.

I'd go for:

Marler
Webber
Wilson
Lawes
Attwood
Haskell
Robshaw
Morgan
Youngs
Ford
May
Barritt
Burrell
Watson
Brown

I think the front 5 has been the only plus point of the series so far, but I'd like to see how Webber goes plus Hartley deserves some bench time for being an idiot.

Haskell and Morgan come partly to offset the Samoan big ball carriers and partly because Billy V. looked totally out of sorts last week. Personally I'd drop him until he is fit enough to play 80 minutes, but that's just me.

Behind the scrum, Care and Farrell have been poor so they get rotated. The centres are a proper partnership rather than holding Fords hand. The back 3 are unchanged because I don't think they had enough ball to make a proper judgement, Watson only got the ball as a hospital pass from Farrell didn't he?!

I would hope that if a changed team like this played and did well SL would have the courage to keep those players on for Oz. I personally didn't like the dropping of those who had done well for the second test in NZ, I think it sends out the wrong message.

i can honestly only see a few changes as i think England needs to win comfortably to give some confidence to the players.

1) Samoa are not some weak pushover...they will give a real good game...or they should judging by the players they have.

2) We need to start and build momentum. Make a few neccesary changes...but keep the rest in.

1 Marler
2 Webber
3 Wilson
4 Lawes
5 Attwood
6 Haskell
7 Robshaw - Kvesic or Fraser must come off the bench though
8 Morgan

9 Care - Give him a chance with a creative 10
10 Ford
11 May
12 Barirtt (Eastmond injured)
13 Joseph
14 Watson / Roko / Nowell etc who ever...take your pick.
15 Brown

I would play largely the same team as against Australia. Haskell in (if he feels he's recovered sufficiently, seemed good on Saturday but it was Welsh). Ford in. Webber in (mainly for game time, rather than dropping Hartley but yes against Australia as well). Eastmond if fit, if not Burrell in. Keep back 3 the same.

I think to give the players maximum chance against Australia, we could do with giving a few players a bit of a breather on Saturday. 4 tests in successive weekends is a big ask for the likes of Marler, Wilson, Attwood, Robshaw, etc. It is worth giving the likes of Mullan, Brookes, Webber, Kruis some game time. I appreciate that they are in many cases third or fourth choice in their position, but with the injuries we continually get then I think they need to be ready to perform if required.
Plus I think after the first 2 tests the team could do with a bit of a shake up.

Mullan, Webber, Brookes
Lawes, Kruis
Haskell, Morgan, Wood
Youngs, Ford
Barritt, Burrell
May, Watson, Yarde

The other thing I would like to see is if players perform that they get to keep the shirt for the Australia match, rather than being dropped regardless of performance for Hartley, Farrell, Brown, etc.

I don't however see Lancaster picking that team or not picking his 'favourites' regardless of form or performance (as we saw in New Zealand).

Lots of mentions of Kruis. Personally id rather give big Kitchener a run out.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Lots of mentions of Kruis. Personally id rather give big Kitchener a run out.

It depends on whether Parling is coming back in, or Slater. Our three main locks are Lawes, Launchbury and Attwood. Only really a spot for 1 more. If they're happy with Kruis then I can see them sticking with him. Personally I would have gone for Kitchener. If their mind isn't made up then Kitchner should come in to have a go. At this present moment I don't think it's a particular big deal.

GeordieFalcon wrote:
7 Robshaw - Kvesic or Fraser must come off the bench though
8 Morgan


13 Joseph
14 Watson / Roko / Nowell etc who ever...take your pick.
15 Brown

None of the highlighted names were retained in the 28 man training squad for this week.

nathan wrote:i can honestly only see a few changes as i think England needs to win comfortably to give some confidence to the players.

The topic of confidence came up on Brian Moore's Talksport show and, to a lesser extent, the Eggchasers podcast.

Moore had Schalk Brits as guest and asked him how important it was to have experienced players around him at key moments. Brits said when Matfield made a call for the Boks, or Borthwick made one for Saracens, he had complete confidence it was the right one, and didn't have to spend a moment wondering what else should be done. That was a huge bonus for the rest of the team. Moore also asked Brits about Billy Vunipola and the hooker replied that, at club level, other players offered themselves alongside Billy, so the defence couldn't always commit to him as the sole likely carrier.

I think we have two confidence issues to address with England. One is individual player confidence - "the coaches trust me and I love this environment" - and players having confidence in each other. Lancaster and his team have worked hard on the first but I suspect they've started to lose a bit of grip on the second, partly as a consequence of recent losses.

We don't know why Attwood failed to pass when he could have put us in for a try but there's a chance he felt he had to do as much as possible, because he didn't really trust others around him..

I often think of Jason Robinson's try during our World Cup win:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNdSX3j6TcE



When Wilkinson got the ball, he could have given it to the unmarked Cohen on his inside for a try under the posts. Instead, Wilkinson went outside, with a longer pass, to a player who would need to beat the cover. Wilkinson did that because he had learned over the previous couple of seasons that giving the ball to Robinson in space was a good idea. Cohen was no mean try scorer himself but Wilkinson didn't have to calculate probabilities, he just worked on getting his pass away. It was his confidence in his team mate which brought the try.

Attwood plays with Watson but he has no experience of Watson as an England try machine, so maybe that's one reason he didn't give the ball when he might have done for his club.

When I talk about "trusting other players", I don't mean "leaving it to everyone else to make the key play". You see the latter attitude in football when a team tries to pass it into the net rather than taking a shot. That's sometimes how we seem to play with possession, constantly taking it up, and hoping to score through attrition, rather than thinking "I need to get this ball to a certain guy in a certain position asap"

You get the impression that the Scottish and Irish boys have a bounce in their step because they feel their coaches are making them better teams. Lancaster and his coaches need to take the squad by the scruff of the neck and impose some will on it, so players decide to trust those around them again.

Really well put, but could Attwood's try butcher and before that May's against NZ not just be down to a lack of vision/game awareness from the players?

My problem is who to play in the 12 13 slot. If fit Burrell Eastmond/Barret on the bench.

10 should be Ford/Bench? Not sure Farrell should be on the bench. Is Myler or Slade fit.

I think Morgan should start at 8 Billy V on the bench.

Would like to see BEN Foden either start or on the bench.

I'm still a bit unsure why Kruis is in the squad tbh, he's barely AP level.

Ditch Eastmond, we're wasting our time on him. Bring Burrell in to play alongside 36/Farrell/Barritt (would prefer JJ).

Clark/Robshaw would be a better combo than Wood/Robshaw imo.

I'd go:

1. Marler
2. Webber
3. Brookes
4. Attwood
5. Lawes
6. Robshaw
7. Clark
8. Morgan

9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Twelvetrees
13. Burrell
14. Yarde
15. Brown

I'd be tempted to go Twelvetrees/Burrell but it wont happen unfortunately.

Looks like OWEN FARRELL might be switched to centre for the game against Samoa.

What does this guy have too do to get dropped either to the bench or out of the match day 23 altogether?

Let some one else have a chance instead of daddy's boy keep getting selected.

England's 23 man squad is announced.

Joe Marler, Matt Mullan, Dylan Hartley, Rob Webber, Kieran Brookes, David Wilson, Dave Attwood, Courtney Lawes, George Kruis, James Haskell, Ben Morgan, Chris Robshaw, Tom Wood.
Richard Wigglesworth, Ben Youngs, Owen Farrell, George Ford, Brad Barritt, Billy Twelvetrees, Mike Brown, Jonny May, Anthony Watson, Marland Yarde.

Could be a very similar line-up to last week, or Lancaster may rotate some of his starters onto the bench.

He's right to keep the majority of the same players, we need to build confidence in the team by winning. What's been good in the last couple of games is that we've had players slot in to the team well.

Think of the players we have out injured

Thank fuk no Clark!

majesticimperialman wrote:Looks like OWEN FARRELL might be switched to centre for the game against Samoa.

What does this guy have too do to get dropped either to the bench or out of the match day 23 altogether?

Let some one else have a chance instead of daddy's  boy keep getting selected.

Yeah its becoming a bit pathetic now.

Whats the odds

10 Ford
12 Farrell
13 Barritt

Amen Welly. If Clark had played I'd have supported Samoa.

Youngs and Ford are the must half back combination after the incompetence shown by Care and Farrell last weekend.

Eastmond/Twelvetrees and Burrell in the centres. Haskell, Robshaw and Morgan in the backrow should hopefully give us some balance.

In the second row we have missed the chance to blood some more options. No doubt Attwood and Lawes will start again with Kruis on the bench. Should have been looking to rest Lawes after the last two weekends and get Kitchener a cap. Need to build experience in this position.

What's the betting Wigglesworth will start for his kicking game...

Just imagine we could see:

Wigglesworth
Ford
Farrell
Barrett

Aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhgggggg

And even if they don't start that we could still finish the game with:

Wiggs
Farrell
Barrett
36

.

yappysnap wrote:What's the betting Wigglesworth will start for his kicking game...

Just imagine we could see:

Wigglesworth
Ford
Farrell
Barrett

Aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhgggggg

And even if they don't start that we could still finish the game with:

Wiggs
Farrell
Barrett
36

.

Never happen, mate. Not enough players out of position.

Lancaster may surprise everyone and put Farrell on the bench!

I think its likely we could see a starting backline of Youngs, Ford, Twelvetrees and Barritt which isn't too bad given the injuries and form of others. Still would prefer a proper 13 in there but England appear to be fixated with a bludgeon as opposed to a rapier in the outside channel.

Would've been a good opportunity to see Joseph in there as the form 13 given Burrells recent return from injury.

Wonder what the chances are of:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Wilson
4. Lawes
5. Attwood
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Twelvetrees
13. Barritt
14. Watson
15. Brown

Depressingly high Hammer, depressingly high

Well Care, Eastmond and Vunipola are definitely out.

yappysnap wrote:Depressingly high Hammer, depressingly high

I woudl say low - unless it has been misinformation every paper has been saying Ford/Farrell 10/12 since early last week.

According to the rugby guy from the Daily Mail

Brown, Watson, Barritt, Farrell, May, Ford, Youngs,
Marler, Webber, Wilson, Attwood, Lawes, Haskell, Robshaw, Morgan

yappysnap wrote:What's the betting Wigglesworth will start for his kicking game...

Just imagine we could see:

Wigglesworth
Ford
Farrell
Barrett

Aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhgggggg

And even if they don't start that we could still finish the game with:

Wiggs
Farrell
Barrett
36

.

Shift Brown to the wing and stick Goode at full back and we have the sort of team Lancaster would enjoy!

Ford is a good player for standing flat and organising runners off him, so at least with him at 10 we may see the likes of Morgan hitting the line at pace.

Wy does he have to play Farrell...what the hell is going on.

Hes not that special a player to be undroppable....or a fixture in the team. I think that has been worked out now.

Hell id rather Twelvetrees start at 12 ad ive been very underwhelmed by his performances.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

yappysnap wrote:What's the betting Wigglesworth will start for his kicking game...

Just imagine we could see:

Wigglesworth
Ford
Farrell
Barrett

Aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhgggggg

And even if they don't start that we could still finish the game with:

Wiggs
Farrell
Barrett
36

.

Shift Brown to the wing and stick Goode at full back and we have the sort of team Lancaster would enjoy!

Ford is a good player for standing flat and organising runners off him, so at least with him at 10 we may see the likes of Morgan hitting the line at pace.

A dream for Chris Ashton

But im happy if they persist with May...and Watson for pace.

How has youg Nowell been playing for Exeter?

Care played poorly at scrum-half last weekend. He's a quality player though, so Lancaster will play him on the wing this weekend.

Alex_Germany wrote:Care played poorly at scrum-half last weekend. He's a quality player though, so Lancaster will play him on the wing this weekend.

Care isnt in the 23. Its not like people havent posted the 23. Its on the beeb and everything..


England squad to face Samoa
Forwards: Dave Attwood (Bath), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle), Dylan Hartley (Northampton), James Haskell (Wasps), George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, captain), Rob Webber (Bath), David Wilson (Bath), Tom Wood (Northampton).
Backs: Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath), Jonny May (Gloucester), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester), Anthony Watson (Bath), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester).

I can understand why he is keeping a lot of players but why change it up a little.

 If he was to keep a a few of the players I would have rather it was something like.

 1) Mullan
 2) Webber
 3) Brookes
 4) Attwood
 5) Kruis
 6) Haskell
 7) Robshaw
 8) Morgan
 9) Youngs
10) Ford
11) Yarde
12) Barritt
13) Joesph
14) May
15) Brown

 Bench:
16) Hartley
17) Marler
18) Wilson
19) Lawes
20) Ewers
21) Wigglesworth
22) Farrell
23) Watson

 Although is would like to be more extreme that still has a lot of core players.

 Just wish they would play an actually 13 this test series already. Also wish Ewers would get some game time at the least.

I like the look of the pack, looks very well balanced to me and, on paper, looks like it can offer more than just the set piece and really provide the backline with a good platform going forward.

However, if it is Ford, Farrell and Barritt in the backline then I worry about our ability to exploit the platform the forwards provide. There certainly is not running threat from that midfield and Ford and Farrell will look to ship the ball wide, meaning the defence can simply employ a drift.

I actually feel a little sorry for Owen Farrell.

Like many of the guys on the Lions tour he looked fatigued for much of last season, but still played well until that unfortunate injury when he tripped on the TV cable.

He was then played in the 2nd test in NZ when not fit, and rushed back in for these AIs. The international stage is not the place to try and regain form and fitness.

I can only assume they do not trust ickle George with the goal kicking.

jamesandimac wrote:I like the look of the pack, looks very well balanced to me and, on paper, looks like it can offer more than just the set piece and really provide the backline with a good platform going forward.

However, if it is Ford, Farrell and Barritt in the backline then I worry about our ability to exploit the platform the forwards provide.  There certainly is not running threat from that midfield and Ford and Farrell will look to ship the ball wide, meaning the defence can simply employ a drift.

while I agree with your sentiment on Ford/Farrell/Barritt as a whole, I can only assume you have never seen Ford play to say he offers no running threat.

LondonTiger wrote:I actually feel a little sorry for Owen Farrell.

Like many of the guys on the Lions tour he looked fatigued for much of last season, but still played well until that unfortunate injury when he tripped on the TV cable.

He was then played in the 2nd test in NZ when not fit, and rushed back in for these AIs. The international stage is not the place to try and regain form and fitness.

I can only assume they do not trust ickle George with the goal kicking.

This.

I said before the AI's that Farrell should be rested ready for the 6N's, then we can see how his replacement goes against the top sides and Farrell can come back on point.

Now all that's happened is that Faz has steadily got worse, will take the blame for any and all Englands failings and his replacement can't seem to get even two minutes without him being close by. A pretty crappie state of affairs.

How much better would it be to go into the 6N's with Farrell well rested and back in the groove for Sarries and Ford full of confidence after getting handed 4 consecutive games against the top teams to prove himself. Oh well.

I'm really starting to lose faith in Lancaster based on his selections. 

If the rumours of the starting team for this weekend are true, how can he possibly think that a centre partnership of Farrell and Barritt will have any attacking flair what so ever. 

He's starting Ford, so that's one positive move in the right direction. But by playing him with Farrell and Barritt removes any creativity he could possibly harness from his centres, meaning that he overly-relies on his wingers. Already Ford's choices are limited to 3 back line players from 5 (including the SH). If we fail this weekend, what's that going to do for Ford's confidence? 

Give the lad a a full complement of players who are on form. Barritt to 12 for defensive solidarity, and Joseph to 13 as an attacking spark.

SL and his coaching staff are beginning to look out of their depth to be honest.

Yes they have set us on the right path but I feel we now have a very talented squad who need to step up a level or two and I really doubt these are the right guys to make that happen.

LondonTiger wrote:

jamesandimac wrote:I like the look of the pack, looks very well balanced to me and, on paper, looks like it can offer more than just the set piece and really provide the backline with a good platform going forward.

However, if it is Ford, Farrell and Barritt in the backline then I worry about our ability to exploit the platform the forwards provide.  There certainly is not running threat from that midfield and Ford and Farrell will look to ship the ball wide, meaning the defence can simply employ a drift.

while I agree with your sentiment on Ford/Farrell/Barritt as a whole, I can only assume you have never seen Ford play to say he offers no running threat.

No you misunderstand me. I fully appreciated Ford offers a threat ball in hand, what I meant by midfield was the 12 - 13 axis and their inability to offer a viable running threat.

Hang on. Eastomnd in injured hence Farrel sloting in.

TightHEAD wrote:SL and his coaching staff are beginning to look out of their depth to be honest.

Yes they have set us on the right path but I feel we now have a very talented squad who need to step up a level or two and I really doubt these are the right guys to make that happen.

I am not sure the squad is all that talented. Would still like Wayne Smith to ytake the job he was offered and see Catt and Farrell step down from coaching panel.