AP Final Northampton Saints v Saracens

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd start a thread for the final.

I hope it'll be a close game and as a neutral attending, a lot more interesting then the HC final.

Saracens: Goode; Ashton, Bosch, Barritt, Strettle; Farrell, De Kock; Barrington, Brits, Stevens; Borthwick (capt), Botha; Brown, Burger, B. Vunipola.

Replacements: George, Gill, Johnston, Haregreaves, Wray, Wigglesworth, Hodgson, Wyles.

Northampton Saints: Foden; K. Pisi, G. Pisi, Burrell, North; Myler, Fotuali'i; Corbisiero, Haywood, Ma'afu; Manoa, Lawes; Clark, Wood (capt), Dickinson.

Replacements: Hartley, Waller, Mercey, Day, Dowson, Dickson, Wilson, Stephenson.

Heart say's Saints to get their first ever AP title and the cup to get a new name on it, head say's Saracens will do enough to get a win after the let down on Saturday.

Hood83 wrote:JP Doyle is a woeful ref, never liked him. Good on him for having the guts to go back to chalk that try off though.

he's a good ref, normally gets the right decision and lets the game flow.

I thought the TMO could only tell the ref to look at something if it was foul play? I can't recall seeing it happen before for forward passes, knock ons, etc.

great legal hit by lawes, of course some will call that dirty.

Whoever that lady interviewing Jacques Burger was can she never do it ever again? Made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck not in a good way. Kthx.

Hmmmm, was Hartley kicking hodgson on his head?

great offload there, this is great game. i have no idea who will win, but its advantage sarries

nathan wrote:

Hood83 wrote:JP Doyle is a woeful ref, never liked him. Good on him for having the guts to go back to chalk that try off though.

he's a good ref, normally gets the right decision and lets the game flow.

Not convinced, when I've seen him he's always made fairly obvious gaffes AND missed a lot at the breakdown. Might just have seen some off games, and obviously it's a lot of my personal interpretation.

So, 14 all. What's the deal with extra time etc if we get there?

That penalty for me is something Doyle always misses - when a tackler loiters and gets in the way of the clear out.

Hood83 wrote:

nathan wrote:

Hood83 wrote:JP Doyle is a woeful ref, never liked him. Good on him for having the guts to go back to chalk that try off though.

he's a good ref, normally gets the right decision and lets the game flow.

Not convinced, when I've seen him he's always made fairly obvious gaffes AND missed a lot at the breakdown. Might just have seen some off games, and obviously it's a lot of my personal interpretation.

I know what you mean, i think the breakdown is the weakest part of his game. both teams have got away with a fair bit today.

Why wasn't Bosch given the long range attempt? He has a huge boot and if he misses then he'll send it dead and Saints kick back to you.

Normally a fan of Wigglesworth but I feel Saracens would be ahead with De Kock still on. He seems to be making the wrong decision at so many breakdowns.

Hood83 wrote:

nathan wrote:

Hood83 wrote:JP Doyle is a woeful ref, never liked him. Good on him for having the guts to go back to chalk that try off though.

he's a good ref, normally gets the right decision and lets the game flow.

Not convinced, when I've seen him he's always made fairly obvious gaffes AND missed a lot at the breakdown. Might just have seen some off games, and obviously it's a lot of my personal interpretation.

I'm with Hood on this one.  JP has always missed fairly obvious things in my opinion when I've watched games he's reffed.

Mercey, poor man's PDJ?

You can go back one phase only! FFS just play the game. Yes you won't get everything right but it's better than that rubbish.

On balance I feel Saracens deserve that. Played a more clever game and have more gas left in their tanks.

Billy V must be so glad that ball went over the try line!

Bloody hell

If this isn't a try then Myler is a fool for not calling for the drop goal

he placed it twice didnt he? this is very close!

Shouldn't of even got to that point, clear and obvious obstruction prior to that.

Massive balls by Saints to go for the try. Well done to them.

Blatant blocking. Runs into his own man as he reaches for the line. Stops the defenders targeting the ball. Poor decision.

good game though and well done to Saints, glad to keep the trophy in the east midlands.

my only worry is the injury count for England.

Enjoyed the last few minutes, Northampton got the reward for going for the try, well done.

Completely agree, would be gutted as a Saracens fan. TMO quick to get involved for stuff like that all match, but can't see the most obvious one of all.

Didn't look like a try to me from the view behind the posts.

I hate the play off format.

Well done to both teams though, both are head and shoulders above everyone else.

Scrumpy wrote:I hate the play off format.

Well done to both teams though, both are head and shoulders above everyone else.

I don't really like or understand the playoff format either if you just have one league. you already have a winner. Now if rugby was just one sport and you had championship playoffs between the northern Rugby League and the southern Rugby Union that would have made sense.

Clear double movement. Sarries got screwed.

Shame for Sarries who really were the standout team this year. Nice for Saints to win it though, as I imagine most of the Sarries players have won it already.

Never been a fan of Sarries, all that finger wiggling, naff songs and gimmicks annoys the hell out of me. Along with Borthwick's constant niggle. But the players are top class, seem really humble and hard-working. Also, read on the Beeb about the club's principles, how they look after the players etc. Very impressive and they've grown on me. They deserved more from this year.

Isn't it about time rugby got goal line technology to see if the ball went over the line rather than use replays? Goal line technology in football, tennis is almost instant.

sportform wrote:Isn't it about time rugby got goal line technology to see if the ball went over the line rather than use replays? Goal line technology in football, tennis is almost instant.

Football, tennis, etc., don't have 16 hairy ar$ed forwards piling up around the ball either. How's a laser based goal line technology going to shine through that to check the ball has crossed the line.

Rugby has done more than most sports over the years to ensure the correct result is called, but at some point we have to accept it is a game played and officiated by humans. Hence now and again the wrong call will be made.

However, in this case the right call was made. Was a good try, no offence occurred and the best side on the day won, by 3 tries to 1.

Sounds interesting, well done Saints now give us King George back. Also, I hear Farrell injured himself being a c*ck as usual in a non-try situation, anyone got the footage?

No, he injured himself prior to celebrating, just the victim of a hugely intense game at the end of a hugely intense season. Both sides were superb and all players went far beyond the call of duty. well done to both clubs!

The Saint wrote:Sounds interesting, well done Saints now give us King George back. Also, I hear Farrell injured himself being a c*ck as usual in a non-try situation, anyone got the footage?

He kicked the ball whilst in celebration mode. He wasn't being a man sausage at all.

Congratulations to Saints and sincere commiserations to Sarries. That was as absorbing a game of rugby as you can get. Both sides thoroughly deserved to be there and they were a real credit to the Jeff.

HongKongCherry wrote:Congratulations to Saints and sincere commiserations to Sarries. That was as absorbing a game of rugby as you can get. Both sides thoroughly deserved to be there and they were a real credit to the Jeff.

+1

farrell really injured himself last week in the warmup for the Hc final. i watched it happen on the pitch - he wrenched his ankle/calf tripping on a wire which went to the fireworks display in the middle of the pitch..

this would have been no more than a continuation of that injury.

hard to see him playing in NZ to be honest. HC final and AP final, sure, but a lame duck tour to NZ compromised by bad calendar planning and ravaged by injury to the England squad? i reckon he will sit the tour out.

That was a fantastic game today. Saints just nicking it at the end.

But well played Sarries and really really bad luck. If Charlie Hodgson had not it the post, they could well of won.

How bad did Owen Farrell injurie himself? I know the adrenolin kicks at times but he was very silly in my opinion.

Some very tired bodies out there today i just hope their is not too many injured players for the tour to NZ.

But well played Saints derserving winners.

majesticimperialman wrote:That was a fantastic game today. Saints just nicking it at the end.

But well played Sarries and really really bad luck. If Charlie Hodgson had not it the post, they could well of won.

How bad did Owen Farrell injurie himself? I know the adrenolin kicks at times but he was very silly in my opinion.

Some very tired bodies out there today i just hope their is not too many injured players for the tour to NZ.

But well played Saints derserving winners.

i don't get all this "he was very silly", he kicked the ball like he would do every other time in a game. If the leg didn't go then, it would of whilst in play.

Nathan, it was the way he hesitated before he kicked it in celebration. If you're unsure about it then don't do it. He looked a fool injuring himself on what was in fact a disallowed try.

Felt Sarries blew the chance to win it when Borthwick ordered the kick to the corner over a long range effort from Bosch. Why have a long range specialist if you're not going to use him in the big games. He's more than capable of the 60 most effort so just behind half way and straight on to the posts was doable. Add into that if he missed it would have gone for a 22 drop and Sarries would have had the ball back for a drop goal attempt.

The Saint wrote:Sounds interesting, well done Saints now give us King George back.

I thought our King Georges were all of German background, not Welsh. I learn something new every day.........

Good game for a final. I feel sorry for Sarries, they deserved something of the season but I slightly prefer Saints' style of play and it's good the side that took some risks and went for tries instead of kicks won in the end.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Farrell really Is an idiot. Pulls his calf kicking the ball into the crowd in celebration.

Can you reverse the decision like that?

You want the TMO to reverse Farrell's decision to pull his calf by kicking the ball into the crowd? Have they not got enough powers already? How long before a Doctor Who episode features the Timelord consulting a TMO.

I think referees in rugby have always had the power to correct or reverse decisions. If it has come to the referee's attention that something is clearly wrong then he has every right to. The TMO informing him there is something to look at is surely no different to if a touch judge reported it to him. I don't have a problem in principal with it though perhaps the guidelines should be made clearer.

Hell of a game.  Only watched it yesterday evening.  Saints were good value for the win, but I have to feel a bit for Saracens.  I did say to a friend who supports them that they would either win both finals or neither, and so it transpired.

From an England viewpoint, I would leave Billy Vunipola and Owen Farrell at home this summer now.  Billy is running on empty and Farrell's ankle is a weakness.  There is no point shipping them out to NZ, we need them fit and firing in the run up to RWC2015.

Yea Billy looked knackered by the end, but fair play to him he kept on plugging away at the Saints defense.

Morgan would do well getting to play all three tests.

It's just a shame that the ref/tmo was so instrumental in deciding the winner.

Whether decisions go for or against the lack of consistency by J P Doyle/TMO was shocking.

I've said before that I don't think Doyle is a good ref and his use of the TMO is particularly poor.  To be fair though, I thought however they got to the decisions yesterday, the right decisions were made in the end.  The use of the TMO and the protocols around it do need looking at though.

Disagree.

Didn't check for a forward pass for Saints 2nd try. If he had at least checked it would have been a sign of consistency.

"Try" at the end was inconclusive as no one could see it touching the line, not even with cameras could you see.

Is the ref even allowed to go to the TMO once a try has been awarded? Was it fair that Wray's potential try was chalked so effortlessly?

It just seemed like one rule for one team and none for the other.

The game itself flowed pretty well and credit for that must go DP Doyle but his shocking inconsistency with the TMO was far too influential.

When I watch a game of rugby I do not want to feel that the ref/TMO is more important than the players but unfortunately in this game it was. It's the controversy which is more bitter than the loss.