AP Final Northampton Saints v Saracens

by yappysnap Wed 28 May 2014, 10:51 am

Thought I'd start a thread for the final.

I hope it'll be a close game and as a neutral attending, a lot more interesting then the HC final.

Saracens: Goode; Ashton, Bosch, Barritt, Strettle; Farrell, De Kock; Barrington, Brits, Stevens; Borthwick (capt), Botha; Brown, Burger, B. Vunipola.

Replacements: George, Gill, Johnston, Haregreaves, Wray, Wigglesworth, Hodgson, Wyles.

Northampton Saints: Foden; K. Pisi, G. Pisi, Burrell, North; Myler, Fotuali'i; Corbisiero, Haywood, Ma'afu; Manoa, Lawes; Clark, Wood (capt), Dickinson.

Replacements: Hartley, Waller, Mercey, Day, Dowson, Dickson, Wilson, Stephenson.

Heart say's Saints to get their first ever AP title and the cup to get a new name on it, head say's Saracens will do enough to get a win after the let down on Saturday.

by yappysnap Wed 28 May 2014, 10:54 am

A little bit of humour from the Saints forum...

Saracens Marketing Meeting

Attending, Tom, Dick and Harry

Tom: OK boys, we have a big match coming up on Saturday and we need to come up with something very innovative to make our fans buy tickets and cheer the team on.

Harry: Rob, they have been buying tickets, we have nearly sold out our 8,000 allocation in 2 weeks.

Tom: Saints sold out their's in 8 hours. Some of our allocation has been going to an NN postcode.

Dick: Boys don't worry about that. Our fans were so positive we would be at Twickers, I bet they had already bought them from ticket master.

Tom: Good point Dick. Let's move on to how to get them to cheer the team on. Now, we don't have access to the tanoy, so that causes us a number of problems.

Harry: Problems Tom

Tom: Yes Harry. Think about it. On average we remind our fans to STAND UP FOR THE SARACENS every 3 minutes.

Dick: More than every 3 minutes Tom if there are a lot of breaks in play.

Tom: Quite right Dick. So what can we do?

Harry: Any chance of getting the fat lady back

Tom: She did the Atkins diet

Dick: What about giving out some bibs with the words Stand Up printed on them?

Harry: Like the tabards we did a few years ago

Dick: Yes, that's what I am thinking of.

Tom: I like it. Maybe we could offer fans their money back on their match ticket if they send a photo of them standing up next to Gavin in Twickenham.

Harry: Don't think the Saints have Gavin, I think he is still in Bath

Tom: Well maybe standing next to any one orange?

Dick: Do you think that is going too far?

Tom: You know what we say here Dick?

All : LOL You can never go too far, there is only one thing worse than being talked about. (que laughter) that's not being talked about. Ha ha

Tom: OK, done, I will get graphics onto the posters, web etc. Now it goes with out saying that we will give every fan 3 flags each. Did you order them Dick?

Dick: Yes I ordered 9,000.

Tom : Nice work Dick. Now what about getting the fans to sing and be vocal.

Harry: have to get them hammered again?

Tom: Naturally. Let's organise another gathering. I think we almost have a tradition of doing that when playing the Saints

Dick: What, you mean we have a tradition now?

Harry: Does that mean we are a proper Rugby Club now?

Tom: Boys, stop getting carried away. We don't need to have traditions or be proper.

Harry and Dick : why Tom?

Tom: Because we are SPECIAL

Harry and Dick: ahhhhhh

Tom: We need to wrap things up quickly now, as I have still got to order some coaches for Twickenham for the fans. We need a campaign hashtag. "Something Special" was a bit last year. Harry, what are you doing?

Harry: I am on the Saints web site. Thought as we nicked Ulsters promo vid this season, we could nick Saints hashtag.

Dick: Inspired, what is it?

Harry: It's Our Time

Tom: That's great, done. It's Our Time. I like it.

ALL: LOL You can never go too far, there is only one thing worse than being talked about. (Cue laughter) that's not being talked about. Ha ha

by beshocked Wed 28 May 2014, 11:06 am

Really that counts as humour?

Probably the funniest about that is that when Saracens first did the gathering vs Saints they beat them in their own backyard in the AP semi final.

Oh and technically yappysnap you should put the 1st vs 2nd - Saracens vs Saints. Always put the higher seed first.

Head says Saints will win unless Saracens actually make intelligent selections and decision making during the game.

Will re-assess when I have seen the two teams.

Oh and Maafu shouldn't be in the final. Just 1 week is a disgrace.

by Jimpy Wed 28 May 2014, 11:27 am

beshocked wrote:Really that counts as humour?
Probably the funniest about that is that when Saracens first did the gathering vs Saints they beat them in their own backyard in the AP semi final.

Oh and technically yappysnap you should put the 1st vs 2nd - Saracens vs Saints. Always put the higher seed first.

Head says Saints will win unless Saracens actually make intelligent selections and decision making during the game.

Will re-assess when I have seen the two teams.

Oh and Maafu shouldn't be in the final. Just 1 week is a disgrace.

It depends upon your point of view - but one thing was for sure, it was guarenteed to get you foaming at the mouth.... it's just a bit of light hearted fun, try not to appear so personally offended whenever anyone dares poke a little fun at the Saracens

Heart says Saints, East Midland rivals they might be, but its been a long time coming and it would be nice to see them pinch the title.

Head says... actually, I think Saints will do it. It would be a travesty if they did, but i'm guessing most rugby folk wouldn't mind.... Whistle

by beshocked Wed 28 May 2014, 11:45 am

Jimpy anything that gets me foaming at the mouth (in your mind) obviously fills you with joy......

Hence why you say Saints to win too. To be honest I am not as bothered as you think - my faith in Saracens has been shaken in the last 2 weeks anyhow.

It smacks of double standards. I am sure if Saracens did an article taking the mickey out of the Saints marketing like that it would not be seen as light hearted fun.....

I am sorry I didn't find it funny - an Ulster spoof last year was funnier than that. Quite amusing actually.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBSFJglzmLk

Though Saracens of course had the last laugh.

I do feel a sense of injustice that Maafu will start in the final though.

by Jimpy Wed 28 May 2014, 11:58 am

beshocked wrote:Jimpy anything that gets me foaming at the mouth (in your mind) obviously fills you with joy......

Hence why you say Saints to win too. To be honest I am not as bothered as you think - my faith in Saracens has been shaken in the last 2 weeks anyhow.

It smacks of double standards. I am sure if Saracens did an article taking the mickey out of the Saints marketing like that it would not be seen as light hearted fun.....

I am sorry I didn't find it funny - an Ulster spoof last year was funnier than that. Quite amusing actually.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBSFJglzmLk

Though Saracens of course had the last laugh.

I do feel a sense of injustice that Maafu will start in the final though.

Rubbish, i've already stated on two different threads that it was concievable that Saracens could reach two finals and come away with nothing. And i happen to think its a definate possibility, otherwise I wouldn't have said it.

In case you hadn't noticed, Saracens aren't a universally popular team, banter comes with that. Nonetheless, i'm sure their board would be suitably grateful for your vociferous (yet usually unecessary) defence of their honour.

by beshocked Wed 28 May 2014, 12:07 pm

Jimpy fair enough I guess.

I agree Saracens aren't universally popular. I don't expect them to be. Oh and I doubt they would be grateful but thanks for the sentiment nonetheless. Smacks of double standards - I am sure "banter" as you call it is allowed if it only flows in one direction.

by quinsforever Wed 28 May 2014, 12:09 pm

i am very excited to watch this. expect sarries will really feel like they have something to prove after last week.

as for banter, Sarries players dish it out in spades, SplAsh, Farrell's cheeky cheap shots etc. Both of which i actually quite like. But i can see why they rile some people up.

by Geordie Wed 28 May 2014, 12:12 pm

Well Saracens have been top all season near enough and they took a bit of a kicking last weekend, so i hope they win this one.

They deserve it.

I hope last week was a little kick up the backside and they play a bit more heads up intelligent rugby in the right places.

It will be a close game though.

by beshocked Wed 28 May 2014, 12:19 pm

Geordiefalcon the team who deserves it will be the team who wins but thanks nonetheless.

The reaction to Saturday will be interesting agreed.

Saracens played Saints last season directly after losing to Toulon and lost heavily to Saints - could happen again.

quinsforever agree. They need to rein in their antics though.

by Geordie Wed 28 May 2014, 12:23 pm

Antics are antics...Farrell does little things...but the most part i too enjoy. He's just working the opposition.

However he cant be blamed for the Habana one. Id have binned Habana for that pathetic acrobatics when Farrell hit him.

I was actually disgusted with Habana! Rugby has no place for that!

by Jimpy Wed 28 May 2014, 12:24 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well Saracens have been top all season near enough and they took a bit of a kicking last weekend, so i hope they win this one.

They deserve it.

I hope last week was a little kick up the backside and they play a bit more heads up intelligent rugby in the right places.

It will be a close game though.

The same thing happened to Glaws in the early days of the play-offs - busted a gut all season and finished 17 points clear at the top, only to be beaten in the play-offs. In fact, I think it happened twice under Ryan. Now, when that sort of thing happens to Glaws, it's funny... I can't help feeling that i'd be the same if Saints nicked it this year - although Saracens are the best team and do of course, deserve their title, there's just something about them that makes them an unfashionable side. Mind you, we watched Bath go off the boil towards the end of the season and Saracens have been wobbling of late too. Is this a bridge too far? They have to win this one, or serious questions will be asked - will the pressure of expectation weigh on them to the point that errors are again made?

by beshocked Wed 28 May 2014, 12:26 pm

I want Neil and Charlie to start at 9 and 10.

Anyone know if Hartley will be fit for Saints?

by Scottrf Wed 28 May 2014, 12:31 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well Saracens have been top all season near enough.

I do think Saints made the better start to the season though. Dropped points in a draw at Leicester we should have won, and a debatable decision at Gloucester before hammering them at the Gardens. Was only our standard coming back fromSix Nations struggles where they pulled away.

by HongKongCherry Wed 28 May 2014, 12:31 pm

Saints will need to improve on their last game too. This is the deserved final as both sides have been a class apart from the rest of the Jeff this season. Sarries still have to be firm favourites given the players they have at their disposal and I can't imagine their backrow will be humbled twice in a row, despite how good Saints is.

I genuinely don't mind which side wins and I'm just looking forward to the 2 best teams going head to head.

by Coltnet Wed 28 May 2014, 12:35 pm

beshocked wrote:I want Neil and Charlie to start at 9 and 10.

Anyone know if Hartley will be fit for Saints?

Hartley is up for selection apparently. http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/mallinder-facing-selection-dilemma-ahead-of-saracens-showdown-1-6081705
Not sure if the link works.

by Jimpy Wed 28 May 2014, 12:51 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:Saints will need to improve on their last game too. This is the deserved final as both sides have been a class apart from the rest of the Jeff this season. Sarries still have to be firm favourites given the players they have at their disposal and I can't imagine their backrow will be humbled twice in a row, despite how good Saints is.

I genuinely don't mind which side wins and I'm just looking forward to the 2 best teams going head to head.

Oooooh, I don't know about that. Saracens have definately been a class apart, but Saints? Not so sure. To be miles ahead of third place where they were (some were saying their home berth was a foregone conclusion this January) to 'pip' Tigers after a near disasterous run in to the play-offs, makes them good enough to be there, but hardly a 'class apart'.

by yappysnap Wed 28 May 2014, 4:25 pm

From a different PoV, I'd love it if Quins were competative enough that people felt the need to mock them. Just shows Sarries are putting the pressure on.

You don't see anyone mocking Falcons do you?

by beshocked Wed 28 May 2014, 5:22 pm

Yappysnap you talk about being competitive - in terms of silverware you have more than Saracens.

Getting to two finals might make a team competitive but if it doesn't result in silverware it's not been a successful season.

Some of the criticism of Saracens is well warranted, some of it is not.

by yappysnap Wed 28 May 2014, 7:19 pm

I would still put Saracens down as more successful though B.

There's only so many cups out there, but you're in the hunt for more then us usually.

by HongKongCherry Thu 29 May 2014, 6:11 am

Jimpy, getting to 2 finals and finishing 2nd for my money puts Saints far ahead of all sides other than Sarries.

by Jimpy Thu 29 May 2014, 8:21 am

HongKongCherry wrote:Jimpy, getting to 2 finals and finishing 2nd for my money puts Saints far ahead of all sides other than Sarries.

Were Glaws a class apart when they finished the regular season ahead by 17 points and lost in the play-offs? Whistle

by Geordie Thu 29 May 2014, 8:58 am

yappysnap wrote:From a different PoV, I'd love it if Quins were competative enough that people felt the need to mock them. Just shows Sarries are putting the pressure on.

You don't see anyone mocking Falcons do you?

Are you mocking us by saying we dont get mocked??? Eh...Eh? Very Happy

Actually, we do take quite a bit of stick...one for generally being gash, but the main one is because of Deans history.

by beshocked Thu 29 May 2014, 9:43 am

Two primary problems against Toulon were of course the kicking and the breakdown.

Bold but I think Charlie and Wray should start instead of Farrell and Burger. The latter two seem to be suffering from fatigue/aren't properly match fit.

In comparison Charlie is relatively fresh and an experienced 10, Wray has been under the radar putting in a decent shift.

Now I don't expect Saracens to start either but it's what I would do.

Saints will target whoever we have at 10 - I expect Clark and Lawes to throw their weight around. Funnily enough I feel more confident that a fresh Hodgson would take the pain better than a physically and mentally battered Farrell.

Not talking about the Saints team because I think we all know what team they'll pick anyway.

by Scottrf Thu 29 May 2014, 10:43 am

HongKongCherry wrote:Jimpy, getting to 2 finals and finishing 2nd for my money puts Saints far ahead of all sides other than Sarries.

3

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 29 May 2014, 12:51 pm

I think Saints were (probably wrongly) sure of a top two place with 6 or so games to go when they looked at who they were to play. They seemed to ease off, played a lot more of the 2nd string players than normal, although injuries prompted some of that and only started to up the tempo again in Bath.

The last few games has seen them progress game by game, they have there tempo back, just need to apply it from the start now. The opposite of a year ago when they started 110% and phased out in the last 20, when JM brought on all the replacements.

I think and fervently hope, that they have enough to beat Sarries but not by much.

It will be interesting to see if they get North running at Ashton with his tackling reputation, or lack of it or maybe use him to hold back the back row when Farrell and Barritt try and force Myler inside. With Burrell one side and North the other it makes an interesting choice for the defence on who to target, if Barritt gets too narrow Myler is more than capable of putting Pisi through the gap.

by Jimpy Thu 29 May 2014, 1:11 pm

Most of us agree that Saracens 'deserve' to win and so perhaps should do.

But it seems like quite a lot of us don't want them to. I mean, people find a dislike for Tigers but mainly because they've won so much and been very successful. People dislike Saracens but for other reasons....

by HongKongCherry Thu 29 May 2014, 1:16 pm

Jimpy wrote:Most of us agree that Saracens 'deserve' to win and so perhaps should do.

But it seems like quite a lot of us don't want them to. I mean, people find a dislike for Tigers but mainly because they've won so much and been very successful. People dislike Saracens but for other reasons....

I think it had more to do with a certain section of their fans... Whistle

by Jimpy Thu 29 May 2014, 1:19 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:
Jimpy wrote:Most of us agree that Saracens 'deserve' to win and so perhaps should do.

But it seems like quite a lot of us don't want them to. I mean, people find a dislike for Tigers but mainly because they've won so much and been very successful. People dislike Saracens but for other reasons....

I think it had more to do with a certain section of their fans...

Says a Shed Head! Wink

Hello kettle, this is pot. Send colour state. Over.

I don't think Saracens fans do themselves many favours to be honest.

by doctor_grey Thu 29 May 2014, 5:35 pm

Jimpy wrote:Most of us agree that Saracens 'deserve' to win and so perhaps should do.

I don't think Sarries 'deserve' to win. They certainly had the most points, but the goal of the regular season is to achieve a top 1 or 2 position. There is no advantage after that.

I do agree Sarries did indeed seem the best team across the Marathon season, but here we are and all to play for. I wanrt to see a great match, but with Saints just that wee bit better.

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 29 May 2014, 7:42 pm

I don't think that Sarries fans are worse than any others, it's just that Saints fans are the Crème de la Crème and all others are just jealous.

kiss

by yappysnap Thu 29 May 2014, 8:18 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:
Jimpy wrote:Most of us agree that Saracens 'deserve' to win and so perhaps should do.

But it seems like quite a lot of us don't want them to. I mean, people find a dislike for Tigers but mainly because they've won so much and been very successful. People dislike Saracens but for other reasons....

I think it had more to do with a certain section of their fans...

Both are more to do with their coaches, ex coaches and upper management... Except of course Ashton.

by Jimpy Fri 30 May 2014, 7:53 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I don't think that Sarries fans are worse than any others, it's just that Saints fans are the Crème de la Crème and all others are just jealous.

Aha, Northampton can only dream of attaining the dizzy heights Tigers have reached.... Hug

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 30 May 2014, 12:25 pm

Jimpy,

Aspire to emulate Tigers we do, as should every club. Tommorrow would be a good start followed by another double next year and we will be on our way.

The challenge for Tigers will then be to keep up, after all we are well ahead this year.

by Welly Fri 30 May 2014, 12:30 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Jimpy,

Aspire to emulate Tigers we do, as should every club. Tommorrow would be a good start followed by another double next year and we will be on our way.

The challenge for Tigers will then be to keep up, after all we are well ahead this year.

Hopefully the Signings tigers have made will have added that extra depth needed to put you where you rightly belong (3rd/4th max)

I think Sarries will win anyway.

Just have a feeling, and 60% of the time I'm right every time.

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 30 May 2014, 12:45 pm

Welly wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Jimpy,

Aspire to emulate Tigers we do, as should every club. Tommorrow would be a good start followed by another double next year and we will be on our way.

The challenge for Tigers will then be to keep up, after all we are well ahead this year.

Hopefully the Signings tigers have made will have added that extra depth needed to put you where you rightly belong (3rd/4th max)

I think Sarries will win anyway.

Just have a feeling, and 60% of the time I'm right every time.

I think we were in our rightful place for the first half of the season, Tigers seemed to be asleep, hibernating even.

We have broken the hoodoo now and with the strength in depth coming through our accademy, Stephenson, Collins etc. we are well set for the next few years.

by Welly Fri 30 May 2014, 12:51 pm

Tigers were not hibernating but injury and battered.

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 30 May 2014, 1:00 pm

Saints had there fair share of injuries as well, Corbs, Hartley, Day, Lawes, Dickinson, Wood, Dickson, Myler, Foden have all been out for substained periods this season.

It is Saints squad, which is full of talented but largely little known players that have stepped up to the mark which has got them through.

Players like the Waller brothers, hardly heard of before this year, Tom Collins, James Craig, Will Hooley, Ross McMillan, Tom Stephenson, all have stepped up and performed at top premiership levels when required.

I don't think Tigers have, at the moment anyway that depth in their squad and as a result when injuries come along........

by beshocked Fri 30 May 2014, 1:15 pm

Every team suffers from injuries/absentees. Just some clubs mention it more than others. Wink

Still think like any team Saints rely heavily on certain players like Myler and Hartley.

by Scottrf Fri 30 May 2014, 1:28 pm

Won a final last week without Hartley and he isn't starting this week. We shall see.

by Welly Fri 30 May 2014, 1:30 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Saints had there fair share of injuries as well, Corbs, Hartley, Day, Lawes, Dickinson, Wood, Dickson, Myler, Foden have all been out for substained periods this season.

It is Saints squad, which is full of talented but largely little known players that have stepped up to the mark which has got them through.

Players like the Waller brothers, hardly heard of before this year, Tom Collins, James Craig, Will Hooley, Ross McMillan, Tom Stephenson, all have stepped up and performed at top premiership levels when required.

I don't think Tigers have, at the moment anyway that depth in their squad and as a result when injuries come along........

We had out for long periods of the season missing at different times.

Ayerza, Mulipola, Youngs, Hawkins, Cole, Parling Kitchener, Croft, Mafi, Flood, Allen, Bowden, Manu, Benjamin, Camacho, Morris, Tait and goneva (for 6 weeks).

Could have a decent team out of that lot Ayerza, Youngs, Cole, Parling, Kitchener, Croft, Mafi, Mulipola (played 8 at club before tigs) Bowden, Flood, Benjamin. Allen, Manu, goneva, Tait.

We have depth but that depth goes when you miss a chunk of players like it is hard.

As said the new signing are versatile enough to cover a lot of areas and Players like Scully and Gibson prove vital signings. and we still got to the HC 1/4 unlike Saints.

by Scottrf Fri 30 May 2014, 1:33 pm

Welly wrote:As said the new signing are versatile enough to cover a lot of areas and Players like Scully and Gibson prove vital signings. and we still got to the HC 1/4 unlike Saints.

You had a bit of an easier group, and didn't finish top anyway.

But this isn't about Leicester. It's about the Premiership final.

by geoff998rugby Fri 30 May 2014, 2:08 pm

To be honest I think that outside of England Leicester and Saints are admired.

The thing is Cockerill on the one hand and Hartley + Clark on the other make it difficult.
Both have great supporters whose company I have enjoyed

As to game it is going to be tight very tight.
The state of the Saracens bodies after that encounter will be key.

by nathan Fri 30 May 2014, 2:13 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Saints had there fair share of injuries as well, Corbs, Hartley, Day, Lawes, Dickinson, Wood, Dickson, Myler, Foden have all been out for substained periods this season.

It is Saints squad, which is full of talented but largely little known players that have stepped up to the mark which has got them through.

Players like the Waller brothers, hardly heard of before this year, Tom Collins, James Craig, Will Hooley, Ross McMillan, Tom Stephenson, all have stepped up and performed at top premiership levels when required.

I don't think Tigers have, at the moment anyway that depth in their squad and as a result when injuries come along........

I think we ended the season having starts around 15 different centre combinations due to the amount of injuries.

by beshocked Fri 30 May 2014, 2:28 pm

Weighing in on the injury issue

The following have been missing from the Saracens lineup throughout the season due to injury- Goode,Hodgson,Barritt,Taylor,Tomkins,Bosch,Burger,Vunipola x 2,Joubert,Kruis,Farrell (has had a problem with his foot for the last few weeks),Hargreaves,Gill,Botha,Fraser.

Every club has injury issues.

by Welly Fri 30 May 2014, 2:31 pm

Teams up

Saracens: Goode; Ashton, Bosch, Barritt, Strettle; Farrell, De Kock; Barrington, Brits, Stevens; Borthwick (capt), Botha; Brown, Burger, B. Vunipola.

Replacements: George, Gill, Johnston, Haregreaves, Wray, Wigglesworth, Hodgson, Wyles.

Northampton Saints: Foden; K. Pisi, G. Pisi, Burrell, North; Myler, Fotuali'i; Corbisiero, Haywood, Ma'afu; Manoa, Lawes; Clark, Wood (capt), Dickinson.

Replacements: Hartley, Waller, Mercey, Day, Dowson, Dickson, Wilson, Stephenson.

Going with Sarries by 5

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 30 May 2014, 2:32 pm

And international call up issues for the AIs and 6N, between Saints, Sarries and Tigers, only Quins have a significant contribution.

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 30 May 2014, 2:34 pm

Disappointed JM has gone with Kahn Fotuali'i to start, Lee Dickson adds more pace to the game and we need to blast off from the start and not play catch up like the last two games

by Welly Fri 30 May 2014, 2:36 pm

Surpised Fotuali'i is starting TBH aganinst leaicester he was like an extra man thought Dickson would suit this game better.

In a team mixed up of the 2 I would go for

1) Corbisiero
2) Brits
3) Stevens (been impressed recently)
4) Monoa
5) Lawes
6) Brown
7) Burger (if on form)
8) Vunipola
9) De Kock
10) Farrell
11) North
12) Burrell
13) Bosch
14) Ashton
15) Foden

16) Hartley
17) Waller
18) Johnston
19) Day
20) Wray
21) Dickson
22) Hodgson
23) Wyles (going for experience)

by No 7&1/2 Fri 30 May 2014, 2:52 pm

Nice team barring the fact you left out Wood.

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