Edinburgh V Munster

First topic message reminder :

Edinburgh Rugby   v   Munster
Saturday 3rd May 2014, KO 17:00
Meggetland

Referee: Marius Mitrea (FIR, 28th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Peter Allan, Bob Nevins (both SRU)
Citing Commissioner: John Kirk (SRU)
TMO: Ian Ramage (SRU)

Live on BBC Alba and TG4

Head to head:

Played 22
Munster with 22 wins to Edinburgh's 6 wins
Munster with 69 tries to Edinburgh's 40
Munster with 641 points to Edinburgh's 431

Saying that, when Edinburgh last played Munster at home they beat them in the HK!

Teams:

Edinburgh

15 Jack Cuthbert
14 Tom Brown
13 Matt Scott
12 Andries Strauss
11 Tim Visser
10 Carl Bezuidenhout
9 Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN

1 Alasdair Dickinson
2 Ross Ford
3 Willem Nel
4 Grant Gilchrist
5 David Denton
6 Mike Coman
7 Tomas Leonardi
8 Cornell Du Preez

Substitutes
16 James Hilterbrand
17 Wicus Blauuw
18 Simon Berghan
19 Ben Toolis
20 Dimitri Basilaia
21 Grayson Hart
22 Piers Francis
23 Sam Beard


Munster

Simon Zebo, Gerhard VD Heever, Johne Murphy, Denis Hurley, Andrew Conway, JJ Hanrahan, Conor Murray
James Cronin, Duncan Casey, John Ryan, Donncha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell Capt., CJ Stander, Tommy O'Donnell, Paddy Butler.

Replacements: Damien Varley, Dave Kilcoyne, Alan Cotter, Dave Foley, James Coughlan, Duncan Williams, Ian Keatley, Luke O'Dea..

To be fair to Denton, he has been playing from the first pre season game through to now with no missed games due to injuries, and has pretty much had to play 80 minutes of every game

It's also not easy playing in a team getting horsed every week.

But I agree - his form isn't exactly justifying Scotland selection, but he has been completely flogged this season.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Denton shouldn't tour in the summer. Form doesn't justify it. Beattie and Wilson should tour as the options at 8.

Matt Scott should find a better club, and one that plans to use him in the correct position.

We are back where we started this season, and Solomons should consider his position.

With all due respect, coaches of the calibre of Alan Solomons aren't exactly going to be beating down to your door. Before you had him Michael Bradley was the most qualified applicant. The most qualified applicant. Michael Bradley.

Michael Bradley.

Solomons is yet to have a pre-season with his squad. Judge him at the end of next season. I think he will leave the club a much more attractive proposition for his predecessor.

I've had enough of cutting our players slack. If they're not fit then they shouldn't play, and if they're exhausted then Solomons needs to rotate. No need to play Denton today. Toolis looked keen off the bench and should have started.

We are a complete shambles, and it's a waste of my money. The mismanagement of the Edinburgh squad has been criminal, and Solomons has been little better than Bradley. In fact the squad looks worse than the one he inherited.

I know he did great things for your boys Notch, but it's all looking pretty black at the moment. If you are Tim Visser or Matt Scott, you have got to be open to overtures from other clubs in the close season.

Notch wrote:

Solomons is yet to have a pre-season with his squad. Judge him at the end of next season.

Agreed, I'd like to give him a full season with a squad of his own making/choice (so far as the SRU permit). Edinburgh have been dreadful for at least 4 seasons now so we can't expect to turn things around in just 8 months.

That said, performances on the field are what draw fans and their wallets - without the performances, turnouts fall and Embra's revenues will take a hit. At some point the SRU will have to make clear that the bank of Murrayfield is not a bottomless pit and the teams should work towards financial sustainability which means bringing in the punters...

Also, playing Scott out of position is unforgivable. Unlike some, I've liked a lot of what I have seen from Beard and would rather see Scott (12) Beard (13) than MS out of position. Not been overwhelmed by Strauss.

@SDM_Robertson: "Edinburgh are now having an awards ceremony and the announcer want the fans to give them a round of applause.Talk about bad timing."
 

The best combination at centre was Scott and NDL, but NDL is Scottish so we let him go, and replaced him with 2 players in Beard and Strauss who are NSQ and not as good. Then we moved one of the most promising players we've had for years, in one of the positions we've struggled most, to a position where we have plenty options. We let one of the best tightheads in Scotland leave, along with one of the best openside flankers. Young promising players such as Leonard and Allan have been moved on. The list goes on, and the results are no better.....

Solomons should stay, but next season the improvements need to be tangible. We'll be very lucky if Scott and Visser stay after the World Cup.

That was hard to watch, everytime Munster had the ball you thought they would score. Strauss is great defensively but offers nothing in attack, the rest of them were strong with the ball but weak defensively. Bezy and cuthbert were poor tonight, I hope in the of season we buy 2/3 quality players and not ten average players.

 

I've been a big advocate of giving Solomons time, because Edinburgh is such a shambles of a club that there simply isn't a quick fix and a major rethink is required.

But while some (!) of the current failings can be excused it becomes incredibly difficult to keep the faith when Matt Scott, our most talented player (certainly now that we've allowed Rennie to leave/been unable to keep him/most likely let him leave lets be honest) is inexplicably picked out of position to make space for some donkey to play inside him!

For 39 minutes it wasn't looking that bad actually..

Edinburgh looked pretty good in attack but i doubt the players have the fitness required (or some like Du Preez, Denton, Ford are overplayed) to play such an extensive game and as a result flood gates opened..

Yeah Vince, problem is that rugby is an 80 minute game. Munster had the discipline and the hunger, Edinburgh didn't and resorted to throwing silly passes and gifting possession.

I fear for the Leinster game. We will have to massively improve, and tighten up in every respect. No more players out of position!

Just seen that perpignan have been relegated - I would love strokosh to come back to Edinburgh. He wouldn't take any prisoners after a performance like that.

Strokosch would be ideal, and would fit right in. Problem is Solomons would use him at 7, so he'd be less effective.

Or 2nd row

RDW_Scotland wrote:Just seen that perpignan have been relegated - I would love strokosh to come back to Edinburgh. He wouldn't take any prisoners after a performance like that.

Your wish might just come true. Heard the rumour last week that stroker was going to Edinburgh if Perpignan got relegated. Mostly to do with stroker wanting to be in the shop window for selection for the World Cup.

Didn't see tonight's game, don't think I'll bother watching it back later. Sounds awful.

Where did you hear that?

Would certainly raise competition in the back row, or alternatively give Solomons an excuse to play du preez at 7!

He'd play Strokosch and Du Preez as a proper left and right Saffa back row combination, with Denton at 8 and Gilchrist and Atkins as a physical second row, with Hart a physical 9. I can sense where we're going here. Let's hope it's effective, and we have a good season next year.

How did Zebo play at 15?

He was ok, you'd have expected more from him in a 55 point scoring haul!

Looked hesitant running the ball back into traffic

RDW_Scotland wrote:Just seen that perpignan have been relegated - I would love strokosh to come back to Edinburgh. He wouldn't take any prisoners after a performance like that.

It's very sad. Perpignan have been in the top flight of French rugby for 103 years, but they have nowhere near the budget some of the French clubs have now and many of their players have relation release clauses so the squad they do have will be picked apart.

To see Biarritz and Perpignan die a death in the same season is very sad. Neither club will likely ever regain the heights they have scaled in the past.

Bresler will be the other 2nd row with Gilchrist.

Edinburgh will have a really strong XV next season especially if they get stroker. The problem is that they don't have the depth. Guys like Strauss would have been brought in to offer that depth but only really Coman has been up to it.

Notch was bang on in pointing out the lack of comparable candidates if we punted solomons. Who would be confident of turning Edinburgh around knowing they only got one season before being thrown to the wolves?

What a sad, sorry state of affairs at the East End of the M8. To capitulate so embarrassingly yesterday was atrocious. Its patently obvious Solomons is in the Scott Johnson mould of coaches - i.e total crap - he has dismantled what good there was there. Look at De Luca yesterday at the 7s - playing with renewed pace and energy. I have no doubt Laidlaw will re-discover his form at Gloucester away from idiots like Solomons and Johnson. Decent players, I can only think of one tbh, like Matt Scott, should try to get out also.

Weegie Wizard wrote:Bresler will be the other 2nd row with Gilchrist.

Edinburgh will have a really strong XV next season especially if they get stroker. The problem is that they don't have the depth. Guys like Strauss would have been brought in to offer that depth but only really Coman has been up to it.

I don't see what Coman offers sorry, he adds nothing at all i would have Leonardi ahead of him in the pecking order, he is a big ball carrier and a low tackler which can won you some turnovers. If Coman is selected just for his "leadership" thats just daft as there have been no difference whatsoever.

Also what's up with Lutui? he would have a bigger impact off the bench than Hilterbrand.

Coman looks ok, nothing special. A bit like Leonardi really, not bad players, just not particularly good ones either. It's pretty grim if it really is the case that Scotland doesn't have any players who can match these guys.

Next season, with a full pre-season under Solomons, there will be no excuses. The target must be to qualify for the European Cup.

If Edinburgh was a dog it would have been humanely euthanised by now.

Of course Solomons should be given next season. He broadly inherited a squad. He did not choose of all its participants from scratch, nor did he establish the usual routines pre- and during the season which he clearly wanted. We can only really judge him next season, but he absolutely has to do some pruning and recruiting in the summer. If Glasgow can win the whole jamboree, then I presume that the cash will be split between the two clubs, which is as it should be.

There are very few current individuals that you could properly build a team around and he has to make sure that none of them are poached over the summer (Gregor Townsend said he has already started to receive expressions of interest for players, including Matawalu). Solomons also has to be brutally honest about the players that he has brought in. It was well worth bringing in some players to see how they fronted up, but now that he has he needs to realise that some were a success (Blaauw, Nel, Du Preez) and some can be reasonable squad players but just aren't good enough as a starter for this league (we all know whom they are - Bezuidenhout, Coman, Beard, Strauss).

If Edinburgh starts next winter with:

1. Blaauw/Dickinson
2. Ford
3. Nel
4. Bresler
5. Gilchrist
6. Strokosch
7. Du Preez
8. Denton

9. Hart
10. Tonks
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Fife
14. Brown
15. Cuthbert

then that would be competitive, but the lack of depth in any of those positions should absolutely terrify any coach.

Expect a lot more Saffers, plus Big Al and hopefully Tom Heathcote (although I think that these rumours haven't gone anywhere doesn't convince me that this is even an actual liklihood).

I agree - that side should be competing for a top 7 finish but there are very few positions with any depth.

Much will depend on the success of Tonks at 10 as well, and whether Cuthbert can become a top rate front line goal kicker. If those two can really establish themselves in those positions, then we may be in business next season, and that backline includes some really good broken field runners and, Cuthbert aside, good pace.

If that's the first XV, then the 2nd XV would be as follows:

1.Blaauw
2.Hilterbrand
3.Dell
4.B Toolis
5.Atkins
6.Coman
7.Grant
8.Leonardi
9.Kennedy
10.Francis
11.Farndale
12.Strauss
13.Beard
14.Hoyland
15.Bezuidenhout

Now that XV would be lucky to escape finishing below the Italians.

.....and then you think about Glasgow next season:

1st XV

1.Grant 2.Hall 3.Cusack 4.Swinson 5.Gray 6.Harley 7.Fusaro 8.Strauss 9.Matawalu 10.Russell 11.DTH 12.Horne 13.Dunbar 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

2nd XV

1.Reid 2.MacArthur 3.Welsh 4.Ryder 5.Naka 6.Eddie 7.Holmes 8.Wilson 9.Pyrgos 10.Weir 11.S Lamont 12.Vernon 13.Bennett 14.Seymour 15.Murchie

That 2nd XV would do bad things to the Edinburgh 2nd XV, and probably run the Edinburgh 1st XV mighty close.

I am not sure what people expected from Edinburgh in this game. They looked completely cooked about a month ago and other than a brief and predictable flurry against Glasgow last week, they were never going to become uncooked at this stage of the season with nothing left to play for. Next week will be more of the same I am afraid.

Did you see the interview with Solomans at half time on Alba. What he said is quite right, the club needed a complete rebuild and this was never going to be achieved in one year, or probably even two, though you would hope there would be some signs of recovery along the way. Even this year there have been. Did they have any significant victories last year? This year they have on occasions played very well and put some good sides away. They have also let slip 3 or 4 games that they should have won. A couple of those in the bag and things would look very different to how they do now.

In term of the league, you can't argue with where they are. They have dropped off badly thought towards the end of the season for all the reasons already stated. I don't think it would have made any difference if De Luca and Cross were still playing, at the end of the day you can't get away from the fact that these were the senior players at the heart of the malaise over the past couple of years. I am not surprised that Solomans wanted to move them on.

This season is done, it was a while ago and now it should all be about looking forward. Judge Solomans at the end of next season. I think things will improve next year.

Surely the time is now for a gag involving the correct strategy to fix Edinburgh being beyond the Wisdom of Solomons?

I do hope you're right BigGee. I personally see no progress, and a number of talented SQ players being replaced by NSQ players who are no better. Looks like a step backwards to me to be frank, however clearly Solomons was never going to be able to work miracles in one season and he does deserve to be given time. I have my doubts about the direction we're travelling in however.

George Carlin wrote:Surely the time is now for a gag involving the correct strategy to fix Edinburgh being beyond the Wisdom of Solomons?  

  

funnyExiledScot wrote:I do hope you're right BigGee. I personally see no progress, and a number of talented SQ players being replaced by NSQ players who are no better. Looks like a step backwards to me to be frank, however clearly Solomons was never going to be able to work miracles in one season and he does deserve to be given time. I have my doubts about the direction we're travelling in however.

Much as I am a Glasgow supporter, I like to see Edinburgh going well as well. You don't need that long a memory to remember how well Edinburgh were playing under Robinson and we were fairly mediocre to say the least. The international team of that time was dominated by Edinburgh amid lots of suggestions of Murrayfield bias.

That is the nature of sport and unfortunately as the team of that vintage declined, it was never re-invented. The run in the HC a few years ago was a last hurrah and probably in hindsight a massive over achievement, much as we all enjoyed it! Lineen slowly built up the Glasgow team from a bunch of good club players, who were willing to die for the Jersey and began to develop many of them into international players. Toonie has continued the work, several players who hardly got a look in last year like Gordon Reid are now good enough to start every week. That is ultimately what Solomans needs to do at Edinbugh, build a team of committed players with no prima donnas, get some genuine competition for places and get the message over the poor play will not be tolerated.

The only player leaving that Edinburgh will really miss is Rennie and even he has hardly played over the past few years, so you could hardly say they will really miss him, only his potential! I think he wanted to go in any case and I don't think it was about offloading him. The rest, even if they are Scottish internationals have just not done the business for their club. The welsh have the same problem with some of their 'established players', who seem to think that putting in a shift at the coal face for their clubs is an optional extra.

The future no doubt lies in the younger Scottish players being signed, who you would hope have the hunger and drive to establish themselves as good professional players and hopefully to develop into internationals. Solomans has signed these players and they are the future of the club. The ones that are leaving may or may not be able to resurrect their careers elsewhere, hopefully they will, but they will get no slack in their new environments for being a Scottish international and will inevitably have to make their own impressions. It will do them good!

The Glasgow model is certainly the one we need to follow, and Sean Lineen has no been given enough credit by the SRU for the work he did there.

Whilst Solomons was a great coup for the SRU, very few of us at Edinburgh would have been too upset had they sent us Sean Lineen when they decided to sack/promote him for Toonie. He did a great job laying the foundations at the Warriors, and extracted the absolute maximum from some fairly average players.

There are very few positions at Edinburgh when I'm happy with the depth, but there are a couple.

Scrum half is a pleasing set of options, with Hart, Kennedy and SH-C. All SQ, and all promising players who look like they could feature in an international jersey at some stage.

If, and it's a big if, we can sign Heathcote, then I'll be pretty content with our options at 10 as well: Tonks, Heathcote and Bezuidenhout (I'd rather we'd have kept Leonard though).

Assuming Farndale and Hoyland come on board as expected next season, we'll have four pretty useful SQ wingers on the books: Visser, Brown, Hoyland and Farndale, and that's assuming young Dougie Fife moves to 13 where I want to see him next season.

I am trying to be positive here, and there are a couple of positions where Solomons need not tinker further, and just let the options develop. Conversely the pack is a bit of a mess. The front five is a big weakness, and whilst Du Preez and Denton are quality players, I'm not convinced particularly by the other options: Grant, Watson, Coman and Leonardi. No "bad" players per se, but not the sort of players to trouble the top sides, and I don't see any of those four in a Scotland jersey. I'd be delighted were Strokosch to return.

+1 on that BigGee. We needed to get rid of too many players who were taking it easy.

Stroks would be a good player to bring back. I don't think he can ever be accused of taking it easy. I also like the fact that he upped sticks from Edinburgh and travelled to make himself a better player.

If he wants to play in the world cup then he needs to be in a visible team and not in the French 2nd division. I also think he has a fair bit of work to do to make the squad. Harley I think these days is doing what he does, but does it better and the Josh Strauss situation can't have escaped his notice.

He seems to tick all the boxes, Scottish, popular with fans, respected by other players, good role model. I don't think Conman is signed up beyond the end of the season yet and am not sure about Leonardi. I hope that he is available and that they do sign him.

Coman is on a 2 year deal

RDW_Scotland wrote:Coman is on a 2 year deal

Still room for Stroks though, the Georgian will definitely be going. He has been an odd one, shown a few flashes, but never been given a run in the team to show what he can really do. Been injured a fair bit I think but for whatever reason, he will be off.

The only problem about Stroks is whether we could afford him. He will no doubt be on a decent wedge down in Perpignan and will still have a decent market value. What will be more important to him, the chance to play in a world cup, or the pension fund. He is on the wrong side of 30 and this may well be his last contract so something he will obviously need to give much thought.

I think Coman at 6 is probably fine during the international window, with Grant at 7 and Du Preez at 8. Leonardi on the bench.

Not a top class grouping, but a competitive one, and hopefully Solomons' already much anticipated pre-season conditioning will make then better.

Definitely room for Strokosch. Solomons would undoubtedly use him at 7 with Du Preez at 6, but that would be a pretty handy left/right combination notwithstanding the lack of a proper openside (Solomons has already made his views clear on that topic). With Denton at 8 that would make a pretty meaty back row. Grant or Coman on the bench.

Put Bressler and Gilchrist in the boiler room in front of those guys, Nel, Ford and Blaauw in the front row, and a physical Grayson Hart at 9, whilst it wouldn't be the most subtle of teams, it would certainly be the sort of side Solomons seems to be looking for. Not a particularly pleasant side to face I'd wager.

Apart from the announced ones who else do we know (or assume) will be off at the end of the season?

Am thinking Atiga, Leck, Black, McAlpine, Basillia, Walker, Lutui and I am sure there will be others. Of these ones the strange ones are Nikki walker and Alex Lutui who I thought were both signed on two year deals. Maybe there was a get out clause or they were not on very much so it makes sense just to pay them off.

I don't think even the benefit of hindsight would be required to see some of those signings as bonkers. Nikki Walker was done by injuries and hardly even got a look in at Worcester after leaving the spreys. The old Tongan hooker did look up for it at the beginning of the season but was never going to be any kind of a longer term option. Plain silly signings both of them, who was making those calls? It just leaves a big mess for the next guy (Solomans in this case) to clear up

With McInally confirmed as coming back and George Turner signed up I hope it means lutui is leaving - we really dont need 5 hookers!

Piers Francis is off too.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Definitely room for Strokosch. Solomons would undoubtedly use him at 7 with Du Preez at 6, but that would be a pretty handy left/right combination notwithstanding the lack of a proper openside (Solomons has already made his views clear on that topic). With Denton at 8 that would make a pretty meaty back row. Grant or Coman on the bench.

Put Bressler and Gilchrist in the boiler room in front of those guys, Nel, Ford and Blaauw in the front row, and a physical Grayson Hart at 9, whilst it wouldn't be the most subtle of teams, it would certainly be the sort of side Solomons seems to be looking for. Not a particularly pleasant side to face I'd wager.

Its not a bad first choice pack but the front row particularly would be quickly devastated by injury and international call ups. We have seen the effects of playing the same team week in, week out this season as well. They definitely need at least three players in each of the front row positions, plus some youngsters as a bit of further back up. The lack of depth has been a massive factor in the way Edinburgh have ended up playing at the end of the season. They have actually been lucky in terms of injury this year with very few long term ones other than Visser. They will probably not be that lucky again!

RDW_Scotland wrote:With McInally confirmed as coming back and George Turner signed up I hope it means lutui is leaving - we really dont need 5 hookers!

Piers Francis is off too.

Maybe Hilterbrand as well then, Cochrane is coming from Wasps to as well

Christ forgot about Cochrane - that's 6 then!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Christ forgot about Cochrane - that's 6 then!

Exactly, some of them have got to go!

Hilterbrand and lutui are on 2 year deals unfortunately.

Hilterbrand is SQ though!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Hilterbrand and lutui are on 2 year deals unfortunately.

Hilterbrand is SQ though!

That's what I was saying earlier. Some of them need to go despite being on 2 year deals. There are always ways of terminating contracts, even if some of them involve paying some money. Fortunately I don't imagine some of them will be on a lot of dough and they may have some early termination clauses written in. You would have thought on a 36 year old hooker or a 30ish injury prone winger, that would have been a good idea!

I don't think they should be keeping Hilterbrand on the basis that he is SQ either. I think that is quite academic as if he gets selected for Scotland, it really would be time to stop watching them, which would be a shame for me after 50 years.

I agree.

Why did we sign Cochrane??

Also one thing why was Berghan signed in the 1st place if he isn't deemed good enough to comes in for a dead tired Nel at the 65th minutes? Now i know Solomons loves Nel but this is quite strange..

To be fair berghan wasn't expecyed to arrive until next season, so he's probably fairly out of shape for this level of rugby!

But he was negotiated to come early, because we sent our own international tighthead to Glasgow...