Greatest Lion of (almost) All Time

by GloriousEmpire Tue 24 Sep 2013, 12:47 pm

First topic message reminder :

What is a great Lion? A player who stood out amongst his peers and was selected to captain the formidable force of Britain and Ireland combined? a man who could meld diverse talents into a sum total greater than the disparate parts?

Or the player who let his actions speak louder than his captain's cry? etching his name on history with record breaking performances and a rare series win over Southern Hemisphere giants?

Or perhaps a player who's perennial standard of excellence made him the first name on the Lions team sheet tour after tour?

Vote Now!

p.s. I've no idea how to rank players before 1970 so I'm ignoring them.

by flyhalffactory Tue 24 Sep 2013, 4:43 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
rodders wrote:Surely Jon Davies should be above O'Driscoll?
I was about to say the same thing......and why is Ronan O'Gara not on this list?
Now now, can we please have one thread that isn't blighted with this please?

I selected O'Driscoll based on his overall contribution across many tours. J2D might be one for the future, but he's not "great" yet. I've allowed Halfpenny into consideration because of his impeccable kicking and record points haul with undoutably ensured an historic victory. So he has proven himself already. I notice this is an improvement on the so-called experts who have not updated their list to include 1/2p who just might be the greatest Lion of the professional era so far.

Sigh!
The clue might have been in the date of the listing.....

Halfpenny has had one full Lions tour, (Played 3 Tests Won 2 Lost 1 that's a 66.7% record, just a comparison Gavin Hasting Played 6 Tests Won 3 Lost 3 that's a 50% record), where is your rationale that he could be the greatest Lion of the professional tour so far. Lets not get ahead of ourselves and wait until end of the 2017 tour before we start getting all jiggy with it

by GloriousEmpire Tue 24 Sep 2013, 4:44 pm

I wonder if he'd make the team today?

by GloriousEmpire Tue 24 Sep 2013, 4:45 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
rodders wrote:Surely Jon Davies should be above O'Driscoll?
I was about to say the same thing......and why is Ronan O'Gara not on this list?
Now now, can we please have one thread that isn't blighted with this please?

I selected O'Driscoll based on his overall contribution across many tours. J2D might be one for the future, but he's not "great" yet. I've allowed Halfpenny into consideration because of his impeccable kicking and record points haul with undoutably ensured an historic victory. So he has proven himself already. I notice this is an improvement on the so-called experts who have not updated their list to include 1/2p who just might be the greatest Lion of the professional era so far.
Sigh!
The clue might have been in the date of the listing.....

Halfpenny has had one full Lions tour, (Played 3 Tests Won 2 Lost 1 that's a 66.7% record, just a comparison Gavin Hasting Played 6 Tests Won 3 Lost 3 that's a 50% record), where is your rationale that he could be the greatest Lion of the professional tour so far. Lets not get ahead of ourselves and wait until end of the 2017 tour before we start getting all jiggy with it

If Gav' had scored as many points as 1/2p, maybe he'd have a better win/loss ratio.

by GunsGerms Tue 24 Sep 2013, 4:45 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:I wonder if he'd make the team today?

Probably not but Im guessing Bob Handcock also from that era would.

by flyhalffactory Tue 24 Sep 2013, 5:05 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
rodders wrote:Surely Jon Davies should be above O'Driscoll?
I was about to say the same thing......and why is Ronan O'Gara not on this list?
Now now, can we please have one thread that isn't blighted with this please?

I selected O'Driscoll based on his overall contribution across many tours. J2D might be one for the future, but he's not "great" yet. I've allowed Halfpenny into consideration because of his impeccable kicking and record points haul with undoutably ensured an historic victory. So he has proven himself already. I notice this is an improvement on the so-called experts who have not updated their list to include 1/2p who just might be the greatest Lion of the professional era so far.
Sigh!
The clue might have been in the date of the listing.....

Halfpenny has had one full Lions tour, (Played 3 Tests Won 2 Lost 1 that's a 66.7% record, just a comparison Gavin Hasting Played 6 Tests Won 3 Lost 3 that's a 50% record), where is your rationale that he could be the greatest Lion of the professional tour so far. Lets not get ahead of ourselves and wait until end of the 2017 tour before we start getting all jiggy with it
If Gav' had scored as many points as 1/2p, maybe he'd have a better win/loss ratio.

Said it before and I will say it again.... You are not the sharpest tool in the box are you

He has actually scored more points that Halfpenny, and his kicking ratio is top notch as well..... over the 6 tests
Could well be by the end of the 2017 (All Blacks) tour Halfpenny's record (if chosen to play) could range from
Played 6 Won 5 - 83.3% success.... to Played 6 Won 2 - 33.3% success rate
Ahem Whistle

I wonder what's the most likely outcome

by GloriousEmpire Tue 24 Sep 2013, 5:26 pm

You might want to sharpen your own blade first there chap. If gav' had scored at the rate of 1/2p... You need to compare apples and apples, obviously. I thought that went without saying but obviously things need to be spelled out here for the hard of maths.

by tigerleghorn Tue 24 Sep 2013, 5:31 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Always welcome Breadvan. At least you named some names, unlike Cyril the imposter.

YOU are accusing someone of being an imposter?.....quite unbelievable ghost

by flyhalffactory Tue 24 Sep 2013, 5:46 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:You might want to sharpen your own blade first there chap. If gav' had scored at the rate of 1/2p... You need to compare apples and apples, obviously. I thought that went without saying but obviously things need to be spelled out here for the hard of maths.

Explain.....

I am comparing apples with apples i.e. Both FBS playing in LIONS TESTS Shocked

, but I am all for you explaining why I am not

Hastings 6 Tests - 66 pts = 11pts per test
Halfpenny 3 Tests - 49 pts = 16.3 pts per test.... however lets compare in 2017 when 1/2p (might) play 3 tests against the All Blacks

(ps maths is my degree and career, just in case its pistols at dawn) Rolling Eyes

by GloriousEmpire Tue 24 Sep 2013, 6:16 pm

Sounds like you need to investigate another career then if that's your best work...

"Let's imagine an utterly unsubstantiated extrapolation and start drawing conclusions from it..."

You don't work for London Underground do you?

by funnyExiledScot Tue 24 Sep 2013, 6:22 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:You don't work for London Underground do you?

More likely Edinburgh trams.....

I think the point on Halfpenny is more that he's only really contributed on one tour (despite his selection for the SA tour in 2009) and as such his Lions record is a work in progress.

Hard to compare him to players who have contributed significantly to multiple tours. Being an outstanding player over a two month period is one thing, sustaining excellence for 2,3, 4 and in some very rare cases 5 tours is another. No issues with him on the list as a player of the series, but I wouldn't vote for him at this stage.

by flyhalffactory Tue 24 Sep 2013, 6:57 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Sounds like you need to investigate another career then if that's your best work...

"Let's imagine an utterly unsubstantiated extrapolation and start drawing conclusions from it..."

You don't work for London Underground do you?

Sorry this utterly embarrassing now, its very much exactly the opposite to what you have just stated.

Facts and figures as opposed to more of your lies.....
Halfpenny has not scored more points at all.
I have just provided you with the facts to qualify my statement, you have just said the first thing that spouts from your mouth (Drivel)

by Cyril Tue 24 Sep 2013, 7:09 pm

More posters wrestling with the ghost pig.

by GloriousEmpire Tue 24 Sep 2013, 7:10 pm

But your "facts" indicate exactly the opposite of what you suggest.

You show 1/2p with a scoring rate much higher and then say "imagine that was lower..."

by flyhalffactory Tue 24 Sep 2013, 7:24 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:But your "facts" indicate exactly the opposite of what you suggest.

You show 1/2p with a scoring rate much higher and then say "imagine that was lower..."

Clown
YOU SAID HALFPENNY HAS SCORED MORED POINTS PERIOD. HE HASN'T.
I ALSO REVEALED FOR COMPLETENESS THE SUCCESS RATIO WHICH SHOWS HALFPENNY IN A BETTER LIGHT.

Clown
HALFPENNY SCORED AGAINST AUSTRALIA
1st Test 3 PENS / 2 CONS = 13 PTS
2nd Test 5 PENS = 15 PTS
3rd Test 5 PENS / 3 CONS = 21 PTS

Are you attempting to suggest if we use the existing data extrapolated and then base that on the All Blacks at home in 2017, that NZ will give away the pens that Australia did under pressure and 1/2p will have those opportunities.

by Irishhoneymonster Tue 24 Sep 2013, 8:56 pm

emack2 wrote:I`ve no doubt those experts knew there onions and as you will be aware I NEVER make
comments about THE GREATEST of anything because of differences in laws conditions etc.
BUT I will comment on this thread Colin Meads stated the losing 1966 Lions side was better
than the winning 1971 side he played against both sides.But for the Goalkicking of Don Clarke
the 1959 side would almost certainly have won.
In my opinion THE Greatest Lions was the 1955 side which drew with a Bok side that was
almost the equal of the Great Bok 1951-2 side.
The 1950 side is also almost totally ignored. Players like Jeff Butterfield,Peter Jackson,Jack
Mathews,Bleddyn Williams,Roy John,Richard Sharp,JohnPullen.Bev Risman,Jackie Kyle.
Those were members of sides who met very strong All Black and Bok sides 1950,55,59,were relatively
speaking stronger than.The AB/Bok sides of the 1970`s.If you doubt me look up the relevant
records.The AB`s lost one series 1950-69,Boks I think one series and a drawn series. IN the
1970`s the NH Coaching had caught up and surpassed the SH for awhile.
As a comparison again quoting Colin Meads the losing 1965 touring side was better than
the winning 1970 Bok side again he played against both.
It is also germane to take into account life in post war Britain few players could afford even
one tour let alone 4 0r 5.Often friends and relatives subbed them remember a Tour lasted
6 months,with weeks travelling each way by sea 36 matches sometimes.A full tour of
SA and NZ in cluded a mini-tour of Australia plus perhaps a couple in Canada on the way home.
Also do you consider what passes for Lions Tours these days the last two all the star players
were hidden for the tests.Club sides were shadows of there full strength sides with the odd exception.The Format of instead of having 4 tests interspersed twixt provincial matches.
Also it needs to be said is a Lions tour Versus Australia the equal of one versus Boks or AllBlacks.Historically I should say no,nothing like. THERE is no greatest Lion it is a team
game. Many members of individual Lions sides were THE best in there positions but in
some cases,THE BEST had to stay at home for various reasons.
As an aside in 1955 Heinz57 scored 16 tries,in 1959 he scored 19 his wing partner
Peter Jackson scored 16.HE is THE bestEnglish WTQ I`ve seen in 60 years not lightning
quick like John Young,or Ted Woodward famed for his Maori sidestep his contempories.
BUT had more ways of beating a man than any I`ve seen since from an English wing.

This is the best and most interesting post I have read on here in a long time. I don't post an awful lot here but am an avid reader. And to think that, as far as I know, not a single person has mentioned Jackie Kyle before emack in many ways is just incredible. Talking of the interesting, emack do you know of a Lions player called Blair Mayne? Perhaps not the greatest ever Lion but definitely one of the most interesting ones!

I should point out that one of the reasons I like this post so much is not just because of the history, but because it highlights the fact that this isn't just about win/loss ratio or most points scored. If you think that's all that counts then you don't actually understand that Lions concept imv.

by emack2 Tue 24 Sep 2013, 9:27 pm

Yes,I know of Blair Mayne 1938 Lion to SA,but know him more for his war record he was if
memory serves.More for his services with the SAS/LRDG or whatever history was my thing
than his Rugby.BUT he was probably special to make the squad Boks were in there golden
period.1937 Boks were revered as THE Greatest team ever to tour there the only one to win a series in NZ.

by Irishhoneymonster Tue 24 Sep 2013, 9:43 pm

Yeah he was one of the founding members of the SAS. Spent alot of time in Africa during WWII doing covert missions etc. probably shouldn't have brought him up because my memory is failing me now ha, but Played for Ireland and the Lions and was Ireland universities boxing champion if I remember right. There is a great story about him on the SA tour but will leave that til when I'm less drunk! Although I think there is a good documentary about him from the history channel that you can get on youtube if you ever get the chance Smile

Less about the Rugby tho and more about his WWII exploits if I remember right!

by GloriousEmpire Tue 24 Sep 2013, 10:45 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:But your "facts" indicate exactly the opposite of what you suggest.

You show 1/2p with a scoring rate much higher and then say "imagine that was lower..."
Clown
YOU SAID HALFPENNY HAS SCORED MORED POINTS PERIOD. HE HASN'T.
I ALSO REVEALED FOR COMPLETENESS THE SUCCESS RATIO WHICH SHOWS HALFPENNY IN A BETTER LIGHT.

Clown
HALFPENNY SCORED AGAINST AUSTRALIA
1st Test 3 PENS / 2 CONS = 13 PTS
2nd Test 5 PENS = 15 PTS
3rd Test 5 PENS / 3 CONS = 21 PTS

Are you attempting to suggest if we use the existing data extrapolated and then base that on the All Blacks at home in 2017, that NZ will give away the pens that Australia did under pressure and 1/2p will have those opportunities.

There you go again, making inferences based on extrapolations not supported by your data! And you call yourself a mathematician!

1/2p scoring rate is faster and he has a better win ratio. If he continues scoring at his current rate it's hard to see that dipping - that's how correlation works.

by dallym Wed 25 Sep 2013, 4:11 am

is this including the Wellington Lions? Then it'd have to be Jonah!

by aucklandlaurie Wed 25 Sep 2013, 7:19 am

And theres Lions in south Africa.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 25 Sep 2013, 7:59 am

It's hard to see 1/2pennys scoring dipping in New Zealand GE? Really? Personally I think he will be tested a lot more and that's if he makes the team. I don't think you can talk about someone being the greatest Lion when only making the team for 1 tour. Too early to tell.

by GloriousEmpire Wed 25 Sep 2013, 9:08 am

What I'm saying is that assumption is not supported by the data. The poster is attempting to use maths to prove something is true but yet his proposition is actually based on an extrapolation in no way substantiated by his data. If he wants to say that he believes 1/2p won't score as many points next time then fine, but don't pretend it's all revealed by clever maths when it isn't.

by fa0019 Wed 25 Sep 2013, 9:36 am

Comparing simply the points scored on tour by 2 players in different eras is a little obtuse, even if your use their success rates too.

Kicking can be heavily biased depending on the conditions, the distance, the angle etc. Who is the best kicker in world rugby.. the stats would suggest Peter Grant. 3 times in a row the top kicker in SR with an ave. rate over the period of >85%... yet he can't kick from beyond his 10metre line... and if I had to put money on someone I'd prefer Morne. Where were halfpenny's kicks in relation to Hastings, what were the conditions???

Back in the day hastings didn't use a tee, they used sand come the 90s and prior to that they used their boot to create a wedge in the mud.... and to top it all over, it was an amateur game. They did a 9-5 etc and then went to practice.... of course rates should be better now given they have all the best technology, computer programme assistance, boots, tees and the hours available to actually practice.

Is it just that kickers are better these days because of natural ability??? Come on.

Hastings was a top player in his day, the best fullback in the world at the time (albeit Joubert was probably superior, given he was a bok he very seldom hit the test stage until the early-mid 90s).

He was a real leader on the pitch both in attack and defence, a big lump of a player more akin to Lee Bryne then to Halfpenny. He wasn't faultless and made his fair share of mistakes, but at the time this was acceptable given the above reasons on changes on the game.

The 89 tour was probably a greater achievement then the 13 one... probably because firstly they were smashed in the first test both physically and skill wise but also because the calibre of the opposition they overcome was of a higher vintage. They came very close to repeating this 4 years later under Hastings leadership but in the 2nd half they were blown away, one match too many in the end from a long and difficult tour.

Halfpenny will probably win the IRB player of the year award and deservedly so, player of the series, player of the 6N etc... but he has to star in another tour at least to be compared to past lions greats.... and NZ is as tough as they come.

by GunsGerms Wed 25 Sep 2013, 9:54 am

Yeah Halfpenny has a very good chance. Who are the other contenders do you think Faa? It is usually announced after the Nov tests isnt it?

by **George Carlin** Wed 25 Sep 2013, 10:00 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:But your "facts" indicate exactly the opposite of what you suggest.

You show 1/2p with a scoring rate much higher and then say "imagine that was lower..."
Clown
YOU SAID HALFPENNY HAS SCORED MORED POINTS PERIOD. HE HASN'T.
I ALSO REVEALED FOR COMPLETENESS THE SUCCESS RATIO WHICH SHOWS HALFPENNY IN A BETTER LIGHT.

Clown
HALFPENNY SCORED AGAINST AUSTRALIA
1st Test 3 PENS / 2 CONS = 13 PTS
2nd Test 5 PENS = 15 PTS
3rd Test 5 PENS / 3 CONS = 21 PTS

Are you attempting to suggest if we use the existing data extrapolated and then base that on the All Blacks at home in 2017, that NZ will give away the pens that Australia did under pressure and 1/2p will have those opportunities.
There you go again, making inferences based on extrapolations not supported by your data! And you call yourself a mathematician!

1/2p scoring rate is faster and he has a better win ratio. If he continues scoring at his current rate it's hard to see that dipping - that's how correlation works.

I think that there are issues with comparing how 'good' players are based on their binary scoring numbers and rates in Lions tests, Glorious.

Leaving aside the rather gigantic issue that players contribute more than merely kicking points (otherwise the equation is simple - Andy Irvine is the greatest Lion in aggregate with his 274 points, Jonny Wilkinson is the greatest test Lion with 67 points and Tony O'Reilly the highest try scorer), it is clearly impossible to distinguish the number of points kicked from the number of opportunities to kick them, therefore making (a) the quality of the opposition you're playing against and (b) the strength of the team playing with you inescapably key considerations.

The 1989 Aussie side that Hastings played against, for example, contained the rump of the team that placed fourth in the '87 World Cup and the kernel of the team that went on to win the 1991 World Cup - including such Aussie hall of famers as Lynagh, Horan, Farr-Jones, Campese and Slattery.

The 2013 Wallabies side had just come off the back of getting smacked in the Bledisloe Cup again (getting nilled by the All Blacks in the second test for the first time in years) and losing to Scotland and France in the year leading up to the Lions tour. Their coach was about to lose his job and the Aussie squad were missing such first choices as Pocock, Polota-Nau, Timani, Smith, Ioane and Higginbotham.

If you think that because Halfpenny scored more points in his Aussie outing than Hastings did in his makes him a 'better player', then you're entitled to do so but I don't think that it's a sustainable position in context. Hastings scored the match winning try in the second test in 1989 with five minutes of the game remaining, incidentally. How does one quantify the value of that contribution?

And I'd be interested to know on what basis you are proposing that Halfpenny will get opportunities to score at the same rate in a test series against the All Blacks. I wonder what odds you'd get at Paddy Power on that one.

by **George Carlin** Wed 25 Sep 2013, 10:01 am

fa0019 wrote:Comparing simply the points scored on tour by 2 players in different eras is a little obtuse, even if your use their success rates too.

Kicking can be heavily biased depending on the conditions, the distance, the angle etc. Who is the best kicker in world rugby.. the stats would suggest Peter Grant. 3 times in a row the top kicker in SR with an ave. rate over the period of >85%... yet he can't kick from beyond his 10metre line... and if I had to put money on someone I'd prefer Morne. Where were halfpenny's kicks in relation to Hastings, what were the conditions???

Back in the day hastings didn't use a tee, they used sand come the 90s and prior to that they used their boot to create a wedge in the mud.... and to top it all over, it was an amateur game. They did a 9-5 etc and then went to practice.... of course rates should be better now given they have all the best technology, computer programme assistance, boots, tees and the hours available to actually practice.

Is it just that kickers are better these days because of natural ability??? Come on.

Hastings was a top player in his day, the best fullback in the world at the time (albeit Joubert was probably superior, given he was a bok he very seldom hit the test stage until the early-mid 90s).

He was a real leader on the pitch both in attack and defence, a big lump of a player more akin to Lee Bryne then to Halfpenny. He wasn't faultless and made his fair share of mistakes, but at the time this was acceptable given the above reasons on changes on the game.

The 89 tour was probably a greater achievement then the 13 one... probably because firstly they were smashed in the first test both physically and skill wise but also because the calibre of the opposition they overcome was of a higher vintage. They came very close to repeating this 4 years later under Hastings leadership but in the 2nd half they were blown away, one match too many in the end from a long and difficult tour.

Halfpenny will probably win the IRB player of the year award and deservedly so, player of the series, player of the 6N etc... but he has to star in another tour at least to be compared to past lions greats.... and NZ is as tough as they come.

+1

by fa0019 Wed 25 Sep 2013, 10:04 am

GG

I think its an open and shut case really, It will be halfpenny and then everyone else.

I think chaps like Ben Mowen and Toby Faletau have had fine test seasons. Bismarck DP (albeit only been back 3 games) and Frans Louw have been standout for the boks and probably Chris Robshaw.... he had an epic 6N IMO... even vs. Wales he was stand alone and after halfpenny he was the next best player in the tournament. Then there is Ben Smith and Kieran Read.

Who do you think yourself?

by Taffineastbourne Wed 25 Sep 2013, 10:05 am

Haydn Morgan.

by captain carrantuohil Wed 25 Sep 2013, 10:32 am

If the menu of choice is to include men like Bennett, John and McBride, alongside the stars of the professional era, it seems strange that Edwards and Gibson, for example, shouldn't be included as well. Great contributors though Jenkins and Halfpenny have been, it would take a rare form of contorted logic to suggest that their standing or achievements approach those of their two illustrious predecessors.

As emack says, there are a lot of people out there, including the OP, who seem to think that international rugby began in 1987. Bleddyn Williams, Butterfield, Jackson, Kyle, Mullen, Ronnie Dawson, O'Reilly, Sharp, etc.etc.....the post-war list is a long and distinguished one, even before you get to the successful men of the 70s and beyond.

McBride would be my choice as greatest Lion, since he embodies what the entire concept is about, but he's got plenty of competition over a lot of years.

by GunsGerms Wed 25 Sep 2013, 10:44 am

fa0019 wrote:GG

I think its an open and shut case really, It will be halfpenny and then everyone else.

I think chaps like Ben Mowen and Toby Faletau have had fine test seasons. Bismarck DP (albeit only been back 3 games) and Frans Louw have been standout for the boks and probably Chris Robshaw.... he had an epic 6N IMO... even vs. Wales he was stand alone and after halfpenny he was the next best player in the tournament. Then there is Ben Smith and Kieran Read.

Who do you think yourself?

I agree on Robshaw but getting wrongly snubbed by the Lions really harms his chances.

Disagree on Falateau. Very good player but there are a handfull of better 8s IMO.

I would add Fofana to the mix. I think he is the most exciting and gifted back to emerge in years and the best centre in the world right now. He is a little unlucky that he plays for a wooden spoon French team in complete disarray that has bags of talent but typically awful management and lots of new challenges brought about by a dreadful domestic league that is frankly all over the place.

Finally I think that Ben Smith should make the shortlist. He has been in superb form. 9 tries in his first 19 tests including a hattrick v Australia will mean he will be on the IRBs radar, no question.

by flyhalffactory Wed 25 Sep 2013, 10:47 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:What I'm saying is that assumption is not supported by the data. The poster is attempting to use maths to prove something is true but yet his proposition is actually based on an extrapolation in no way substantiated by his data. If he wants to say that he believes 1/2p won't score as many points next time then fine, but don't pretend it's all revealed by clever maths when it isn't.

Are you serious?
Its exactly the opposite of what you are saying...... I mean its is seriously the opposite, but if you want to explain your thought process I am all ears.

Its pretty embarrassing at this point

I am not trying to prove anything apart from your lies. Read back to your message, you stated that Halfpenny must be better because he has scored more points...... NOTHING MORE. I have stated he has not scored more points and proved it with simple facts and figures, you silly person.

Its impossible to compare two recent tours lets alone two eras, but to make such moronic statements as Halfpenny is better because he has scored more points (blatant lie) beggars belief.

You are a knock the door and run artist...... full blown WUM

by flyhalffactory Wed 25 Sep 2013, 11:14 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:But your "facts" indicate exactly the opposite of what you suggest.

You show 1/2p with a scoring rate much higher and then say "imagine that was lower..."
Clown
YOU SAID HALFPENNY HAS SCORED MORED POINTS PERIOD. HE HASN'T.
I ALSO REVEALED FOR COMPLETENESS THE SUCCESS RATIO WHICH SHOWS HALFPENNY IN A BETTER LIGHT.

Clown
HALFPENNY SCORED AGAINST AUSTRALIA
1st Test 3 PENS / 2 CONS = 13 PTS
2nd Test 5 PENS = 15 PTS
3rd Test 5 PENS / 3 CONS = 21 PTS

Are you attempting to suggest if we use the existing data extrapolated and then base that on the All Blacks at home in 2017, that NZ will give away the pens that Australia did under pressure and 1/2p will have those opportunities.
There you go again, making inferences based on extrapolations not supported by your data! And you call yourself a mathematician!

1/2p scoring rate is faster and he has a better win ratio. If he continues scoring at his current rate it's hard to see that dipping - that's how correlation works.

This is embarrassing for you sir..

Can you prove that he is scoring at a better rate and he has a better win rate, do you know what Hasting rates were in his first tour?, his first test maybe.

That's actually not how correlation works at all...... data is king, I provided the key to you in the skewed 3rd test where a very poor Aussie side capitulated hence racking up Halfpenny's score ratio. We are now basing Halfpenny in four years time, almost 29 four years older, into his 3rd tour, more experienced but more battle scarred, more injuries maybe or not, we use data based on his future opponents (in this case based on Hansens model it could possibly be one of the best NZ squads) etc etc to produce an "accurate" forecast.

When 2017 is over, then we can compare Hasting 6 test matches to Halfpenny 6 test matches..........

by GloriousEmpire Wed 25 Sep 2013, 12:09 pm

Not really. My point is that 1/2p, having scored a record number if points is a lions legend already. There's no need to project anything or guess anything.

by **George Carlin** Wed 25 Sep 2013, 12:15 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Not really. My point is that 1/2p, having scored a record number if points is a lions legend already. There's no need to project anything or guess anything.

Yeah! Take that, Alan Mackie and anyone else older than 21. boxing

by fa0019 Wed 25 Sep 2013, 12:51 pm

As much as a legend as Mike Teague and Ben Clarke sure... but in the next grouping of Guscott, Hastings, Johnson, Wood he has a little to go yet. He'll probably get there no doubt but I think he'll trade in a legendary status for a tour win in 2017 and test caps. It probably doesn't bother him in the slightest.

by GloriousEmpire Wed 25 Sep 2013, 1:03 pm

It's true. The lions hadn't won a series in the modern age and questions wee being raised about their validity. He was the outstanding player by a degree not normally seen in high level competitive rugby since probably DC in 2005 and he made a HUGE name for himself.

If it had been on grainy super 8 footage, even Alan would be proclaiming him the best player he's ever seen.

It a decade people will still remember his faultless play and laser sighted goal kicking. It was phenomenal. At least the equal of the feat of any other single player in the history of lions rugby.

by GunsGerms Wed 25 Sep 2013, 1:09 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:It's true. The lions hadn't won a series in the modern age and questions wee being raised about their validity. He was the outstanding player by a degree not normally seen in high level competitive rugby since probably DC in 2005 and he made a HUGE name for himself.

If it had been on grainy super 8 footage, even Alan would be proclaiming him the best player he's ever seen.

It a decade people will still remember his faultless play and laser sighted goal kicking. It was phenomenal. At least the equal of the feat of any other single player in the history of lions rugby.

Getting a little carried away. His kicking certainly was outstanding. He did everything else very well but we didnt see too much from him with ball in hand until the last test when the Lions were almost out of sight.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 25 Sep 2013, 1:12 pm

Because of the history of the Lions and the amount of people who have put in huge performances over a number of tours I don't think you can be classed along side them until you've done it on more than 1 tour. If 1/2penny replicates his form in NZ we'll all put him in that class.

by GloriousEmpire Wed 25 Sep 2013, 1:16 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:It's true. The lions hadn't won a series in the modern age and questions wee being raised about their validity. He was the outstanding player by a degree not normally seen in high level competitive rugby since probably DC in 2005 and he made a HUGE name for himself.

If it had been on grainy super 8 footage, even Alan would be proclaiming him the best player he's ever seen.

It a decade people will still remember his faultless play and laser sighted goal kicking. It was phenomenal. At least the equal of the feat of any other single player in the history of lions rugby.
Getting a little carried away. His kicking certainly was outstanding. He did everything else very well but we didnt see too much from him with ball in hand until the last test when the Lions were almost out of sight.

He's a team player. So what? He did what he needed to do to win the series. Better than a lime lighting center who thought he was bigger than the team and could ignore the coaches instructions and needed to be dropped and replaced by someone who could follow instructions...

by GunsGerms Wed 25 Sep 2013, 1:21 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:He's a team player. So what? He did what he needed to do to win the series. Better than a lime lighting center who thought he was bigger than the team and could ignore the coaches instructions and needed to be dropped and replaced by someone who could follow instructions...

God you're a bore. Anything interesting to add?

by GloriousEmpire Wed 25 Sep 2013, 1:22 pm

iOS7 is a pile of unusable crap and makes responding to 606v2 almost impossibly slow.

by captain carrantuohil Wed 25 Sep 2013, 1:28 pm

You seem to manage depressingly well. Hard to imagine that the system exists that would allow you to cover the board any more thoroughly or promptly.

by Cyril Wed 25 Sep 2013, 1:55 pm

I think GE might be a bot.

Though not as good as http://www.cleverbot.com/

by Irish Londoner Wed 25 Sep 2013, 1:57 pm

emack2 wrote:Yes,I know of Blair Mayne 1938 Lion to SA,but know him more for his war record he was if
memory serves.More for his services with the SAS/LRDG or whatever history was my thing
than his Rugby.BUT he was probably special to make the squad Boks were in there golden
period.1937 Boks were revered as THE Greatest team ever to tour there the only one to win a series in NZ.

On the subject of rugby playing war heroes I seem to remember that Douglas Bader was on the verge of an England call up when he lost his legs.

by Hood83 Wed 25 Sep 2013, 2:11 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:iOS7 is a pile of unusable crap and makes responding to 606v2 almost impossibly slow.

Irrelevant to the thread, please stop derailing it.

I went for McBride from this hopelessly limited list. Could you explain what criteria you used to pick these players?

by GunsGerms Wed 25 Sep 2013, 2:16 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
emack2 wrote:Yes,I know of Blair Mayne 1938 Lion to SA,but know him more for his war record he was if
memory serves.More for his services with the SAS/LRDG or whatever history was my thing
than his Rugby.BUT he was probably special to make the squad Boks were in there golden
period.1937 Boks were revered as THE Greatest team ever to tour there the only one to win a series in NZ.
On the subject of rugby playing war heroes I seem to remember that Douglas Bader was on the verge of an England call up when he lost his legs.

There was once an Irish player who only had one hand. Only one handed player ever to play international rugby. He was an outhalf I think.

by jimmyinthewell68 Wed 25 Sep 2013, 2:22 pm

i really dont think you can compare past and present players on skill and how many points scored . i think the post means legend status ,ie. to have been there and done it at least 3 tours whether you won it or not . so having leigh halfpenny running for the greatest lions player is laughable . i remember in an interview with will Carling at his peak , he was ask whether his England side could be beat the Welsh 70s .He rightly said yes , the fitness ,discipline and game planning would be too much for them . so you can't compare past players with present but any player played 3 tours are lion legends in my mind .

by fa0019 Wed 25 Sep 2013, 2:22 pm

There was a player a few years back in the london middlesex leagues who only had one arm and one leg. The guy was/is an absolute legend.... used to drink out of his prosthetic leg after the match.

by GunsGerms Wed 25 Sep 2013, 2:23 pm

Would you expect Carling to say anything else?

by GunsGerms Wed 25 Sep 2013, 2:24 pm

fa0019 wrote:There was a player a few years back in the london middlesex leagues who only had one arm and one leg. The guy was/is an absolute legend.... used to drink out of his prosthetic leg after the match.

Was he allowed play with a prosthetic leg?

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