Greatest Lion of (almost) All Time

What is a great Lion? A player who stood out amongst his peers and was selected to captain the formidable force of Britain and Ireland combined? a man who could meld diverse talents into a sum total greater than the disparate parts?

Or the player who let his actions speak louder than his captain's cry? etching his name on history with record breaking performances and a rare series win over Southern Hemisphere giants?

Or perhaps a player who's perennial standard of excellence made him the first name on the Lions team sheet tour after tour?

Vote Now!

p.s. I've no idea how to rank players before 1970 so I'm ignoring them.

Not much research done here!

and yet you missed off perhaps the greatest of them all... Mike Gibson.

My opinion Cyril. If you have a different one, then share it.

Frankly I never see you share opinions on rugby. Usually, just insipid attempts to derail threads with your personal attacks.

It's not a personal attack GE. We've had loads of best Lions threads and generally they have been well-researched rather than picking a few random names and missing out many of the best.

Just my opinion on your opinion.

I think you'll find there was rigorous and structured analysis behind their selection Cyril. It's not random at all. Perhaps your knowledge is too limited to spot it. 

Who do you suggest is missing?

Judged by an expert panel of 12
As at 6th June 2013

No. Player Name. Nationality. Position. Number of Tours. Test record. Total points
1 Gareth Edwards Wales Scrum-half 1968, 1971, 1974 P10 W5 D3 L2 574
2 Willie John McBride Ireland Lock 1962, 1966, 1968, 1971, 1974 P17 W5 D3 L9 546
3 Martin Johnson England Lock 1993, 1997, 2001 P8 W4 D0 L4 535
4 JPR Williams Wales Fullback 1971, 1974 P8 W5 D2 L1 529
5 Barry John Wales Fly-half 1968, 1971 P5 W2 D1 L2 501
6 Gerald Davies Wales Wing 1968, 1971 P5 W2 D1 L2 495
7 Mike Gibson Ireland Centre 1966, 1968, 1971 P12 W2 D2 L8 489
8 Mervyn Davies Wales No. 8 1971, 1974 P8 W5 D2 L1 448
9 Phil Bennett Wales Fly-half 1974, 1977 P8 W4 D1 L3 411
10 Brian O'Driscoll Ireland Centre 2001, 2005, 2009 P6 W1 D0 L5 399
11 Ian McLauchlan Scotland Prop 1971, 1974 P8 W5 D2 L1 382
12 Fran Cotton England Prop 1974, 1977 P7 W4 D1 L2 375
13 Jeremy Guscott England Centre 1989, 1993, 1997 P8 W5 D0 L3 362
14 Andy Irvine Scotland Fullback/Wing 1974, 1977, 1980 P9 W3 D1 L5 346
15 Gordon Brown Scotland Lock 1971, 1974, 1977 P8 W5 D1 L2 346
16 Gavin Hastings Scotland Fullback 1989, 1993 P6 W3 D0 L3 337
17 Keith Wood Ireland Hooker 1997, 2001 P5 W3 D0 L2 325
18 Ian McGeechan Scotland Centre 1974, 1977 P8 W4 D1 L3 315
19 Scott Gibbs Wales Centre 1993, 1997 P5 W3 D0 L2 305
20 JJ Williams Wales Wing 1974, 1977 P7 W4 D1 L2 300
21 Tony O'Reilly Ireland Wing 1955, 1959 P10 W5 D0 L5 287
22 Richard Hill England Back row 1997, 2001, 2005 P5 W3 D0 L2 286
23 Cliff Morgan Wales Fly-half 1955 P4 W2 D0 L2 272
24 John Dawes Wales Centre 1971 P4 W2 D1 L1 258
25 Ieuan Evans Wales Wing 1989, 1993, 1997 P7 W4 D0 L3 258
26 Mike Teague England Flanker 1989, 1993 P3 W3 D0 L0 238
27 Fergus Slattery Ireland Flanker 1971, 1974 P4 W3 D1 L0 232
28 Lawrence Dallaglio England No. 8 1997 P3 W2 D0 L1 219
29 Syd MIllar Ireland Prop 1959, 1962, 1968 P9 W2 D2 L5 219
30 Jim Telfer Scotland No. 8 1996, 1968 P8 W2 D1 L5 204
31 Graham Price Wales Prop 1977, 1980, 1983 P12 W2 D0 L10 204
32 Bill Beaumont England Lock 1977, 1980 P7 W2 D0 L5 191
33 Dickie Jeeps England Scrum-half 1955, 1959, 1962 P13 W4 D1 L8 191
34 Dean Richards England No. 8 1989, 1993 P6 W3 D0 L3 174
35 Finlay Calder Scotland Back row 1989 P3 W2 D0 L1 149
36 Jack Kyle Ireland Fly-half 1950 P6 W2 D1 L3 147
37 David Duckham England Centre 1971 P3 W1 D1 L1 128
38 Peter Wheeler England Hooker 1977, 1980 P7 W2 L5 119
39 Paul O'Connell Ireland Lock 2005, 2009 P6 W1 D0 L5 114
40 Rob Andrew England Fly-half 1989, 1993 P5 W3 D0 L2 110
41 Jonny Wilkinson England Fly-half 2001, 2005 P6 W1 D1 L4 110
42 Bobby Windsor Wales Hooker 1974, 1977 P5 W3 D1 L1 109
43 Roger Uttley England Back row 1974 P4 W3 D1 L0 107
44 Jason Robinson England Fullback/Wing 2001, 2005 P5 W1 D0 L4 105
45 Neil Jenkins Wales Fly-half 1997, 2001 P4 W2 D0 L2 99
46 Rhys Williams Wales Lock 1955, 1959 P10 W5 L5 94
47 David Sole Scotland Prop 1989 P3 W2 L1 90
48 Matt Dawson England Scrum-half 1997, 2001, 2005 P7 W2 D0 L5 76
49 Tom Smith Scotland Prop 1997, 2001 P6 W3 D0 L3 75
50 Robert Jones Wales Scrum-half 1989 P3 W2 D0 L1

Still waiting for a suggestion from Cyril. Who as far as I can tell, has absolutely nothing to add, and no knowledge of rugby whatsoever.

I'm not sure who those 12 were on that panel, but I suggest they made some bizarre choices!

From the list provided I'd have to say Martin Johnson, but that's based on the Lions in my lifetime.

Willie-John obviously has a strong claim based on his captaincy experience.

Outside of the list I'd have given mention to Ian McGeechan. For me he's the man who has most influenced the development of the Lions to what it is today. Obviously a very good player in his day, but his coaching and development of the Lions has been crucial.

That's more like it, fhf!

Still no suggestion Cyril? How unusual.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Still waiting for a suggestion from Cyril. Who as far as I can tell, has absolutely nothing to add, and no knowledge of rugby whatsoever.

I'm not sure who those 12 were on that panel, but I suggest they made some bizarre choices!

A 12-strong panel of experts, including three former Lions captains, Bill Beaumont, Phil Bennett and Finlay Calder were asked to nominate players on the basis of their ability and their personal contribution to the Lions. Correspondents, editors and contributors from two UK broadsheets were also involved

GloriousEmpire wrote:Still no suggestion Cyril? How unusual.

Since you are asking another forum member to step up, GE, can I suggest you follow your own advice and return to your thread on non-white referees?

The discussion is still awaiting your contribution on why you think the NZRU has done enough to encourage non-white referees, and who all these up-and-coming candidates might be.

It's puzzling you have time to start so many new threads while letting that one die. It's almost as if you really didn't care about the topic as much as you declared.

Surely Jon Davies should be above O'Driscoll?

GloriousEmpire wrote:My opinion Cyril. If you have a different one, then share it.

Frankly I never see you share opinions on rugby. Usually, just insipid attempts to derail threads with your personal attacks.

+ 1.

By the way... Warren Gatland gets my vote .

flyhalffactory wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Still waiting for a suggestion from Cyril. Who as far as I can tell, has absolutely nothing to add, and no knowledge of rugby whatsoever.

I'm not sure who those 12 were on that panel, but I suggest they made some bizarre choices!

A 12-strong panel of experts, including three former Lions captains, Bill Beaumont, Phil Bennett and Finlay Calder were asked to nominate players on the basis of their ability and their personal contribution to the Lions. Correspondents, editors and contributors from two UK broadsheets were also involved

I wondered how Bill Beaumont made it on to the list! We know all about those expert contributors to UK broadsheets though don't we...I won't name names.

rodders wrote:Surely Jon Davies should be above O'Driscoll?

I was about to say the same thing......and why is Ronan O'Gara not on this list?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

rodders wrote:Surely Jon Davies should be above O'Driscoll?

I was about to say the same thing......and why is Ronan O'Gara not on this list?

Now now, can we please have one thread that isn't blighted with this please?

I selected O'Driscoll based on his overall contribution across many tours. J2D might be one for the future, but he's not "great" yet. I've allowed Halfpenny into consideration because of his impeccable kicking and record points haul with undoutably ensured an historic victory. So he has proven himself already. I notice this is an improvement on the so-called experts who have not updated their list to include 1/2p who just might be the greatest Lion of the professional era so far.

Tom Croft!

fa0019 wrote:and yet you missed off perhaps the greatest of them all... Mike Gibson.

Fergus Slattery too.

McGeechan said the ultimate Lion was Jason leonard, though in the sentiment which he said that I would say the greatest Lion was McGeechan himself.  There were better players in a Lions shirt, but no one encapsulates the Lions ethos better or has dedicated themselves more to the cause and concept as a player and a coach.

We need Alan Mackie for this - a lot of the time we celebrate series wins but don't put them in context as the teams that they beat were not the best of the SANZAR vintage.  
 
For example, everyone bangs on about the 70s sides, quite rightly, but the '55 Lions beat one of the greatest Springbok sides in history. You stick Halfpenny in there but compare him to, for example, Tony O'Reilly who scored 16 tries on the 1955 tour at the age of 19.
 
The greatest can only be either Geech (for what he did as a manager as well as a player), or Willie John/Mike Gibson - to go on five tours is astonishing tenacity.

Mufasa
Simba
Elsa
Nala
Scar
Cowardly

 

Breadvan wrote:Mufasa
Simba
Elsa
Nala
Scar
Cowardly

 

 

Always welcome Breadvan. At least you named some names, unlike Cyril the imposter.

George Carlin wrote:We need Alan Mackie for this - a lot of the time we celebrate series wins but don't put them in context as the teams that they beat were not the best of the SANZAR vintage.  
 
For example, everyone bangs on about the 70s sides, quite rightly, but the '55 Lions beat one of the greatest Springbok sides in history. You stick Halfpenny in there but compare him to, for example, Tony O'Reilly who scored 16 tries on the 1955 tour at the age of 19.
 
The greatest can only be either Geech (for what he did as a manager as well as a player), or Willie John/Mike Gibson - to go on four tours is astonishing tenacity.

McBride and Gibson were on five tours each.

GunsGerms wrote:

George Carlin wrote:We need Alan Mackie for this - a lot of the time we celebrate series wins but don't put them in context as the teams that they beat were not the best of the SANZAR vintage.  
 
For example, everyone bangs on about the 70s sides, quite rightly, but the '55 Lions beat one of the greatest Springbok sides in history. You stick Halfpenny in there but compare him to, for example, Tony O'Reilly who scored 16 tries on the 1955 tour at the age of 19.
 
The greatest can only be either Geech (for what he did as a manager as well as a player), or Willie John/Mike Gibson - to go on four tours is astonishing tenacity.

McBride and Gibson were on five tours each.

 I actually did mean five. I'll get me coat.

timhen wrote:McGeechan said the ultimate Lion was Jason leonard

Was that before or after he dropped him?

rodders wrote:

timhen wrote:McGeechan said the ultimate Lion was Jason leonard

Was that before or after he dropped him?

After. It was a reference to the fact that despite being favourite to start the Tests and not being selected, Leonard did everything in his power to assist Wallace and Smith to prepare for the Test matches and support the team - thus the "ultimate Lion" comment.

It takes a classy player to both handle the disappointment of not being selected and yet channel energy selflessly towards the team objective.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

rodders wrote:

timhen wrote:McGeechan said the ultimate Lion was Jason leonard

Was that before or after he dropped him?

After. It was a reference to the fact that despite being favourite to start the Tests and not being selected, Leonard did everything in his power to assist Wallace and Smith to prepare for the Test matches and support the team - thus the "ultimate Lion" comment.

It takes a classy player to both handle the disappointment of not being selected and yet channel energy selflessly towards the team objective.

Tell us what you are really saying?

Before we start all this again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/23164234

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

rodders wrote:

timhen wrote:McGeechan said the ultimate Lion was Jason leonard

Was that before or after he dropped him?

After. It was a reference to the fact that despite being favourite to start the Tests and not being selected, Leonard did everything in his power to assist Wallace and Smith to prepare for the Test matches and support the team - thus the "ultimate Lion" comment.

It takes a classy player to both handle the disappointment of not being selected and yet channel energy selflessly towards the team objective.

Tell us what you are really saying?

That non-whingers are classy.

George Carlin wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

rodders wrote:

timhen wrote:McGeechan said the ultimate Lion was Jason leonard

Was that before or after he dropped him?

After. It was a reference to the fact that despite being favourite to start the Tests and not being selected, Leonard did everything in his power to assist Wallace and Smith to prepare for the Test matches and support the team - thus the "ultimate Lion" comment.

It takes a classy player to both handle the disappointment of not being selected and yet channel energy selflessly towards the team objective.

Tell us what you are really saying?

That non-whingers are classy.

Exactly. I was saying nothing more than that, and I certainly don't want to discuss BOD again.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Exactly. I was saying nothing more than that, and I certainly don't want to discuss BOD again.

You already did because it doesnt take a genius to read between the lines on your post and understand what you were trying to say and what you have just confirmed.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

rodders wrote:

timhen wrote:McGeechan said the ultimate Lion was Jason leonard

Was that before or after he dropped him?

After. It was a reference to the fact that despite being favourite to start the Tests and not being selected, Leonard did everything in his power to assist Wallace and Smith to prepare for the Test matches and support the team - thus the "ultimate Lion" comment.

It takes a classy player to both handle the disappointment of not being selected and yet channel energy selflessly towards the team objective.

That probably rules out Gavin Henson then.

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Exactly. I was saying nothing more than that, and I certainly don't want to discuss BOD again.

You already did because it doesnt take a genius to read between the lines on your post and understand what you were trying to say and what you have just confirmed.

FES comment was about Leonard. What has that got to do with O'Driscoll?

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Exactly. I was saying nothing more than that, and I certainly don't want to discuss BOD again.

You already did because it doesnt take a genius to read between the lines on your post and understand what you were trying to say and what you have just confirmed.

No, I was talking about Jason Leonard. No need to discuss BOD.

I`ve no doubt those experts knew there onions and as you will be aware I NEVER make
comments about THE GREATEST of anything because of differences in laws conditions etc.
BUT I will comment on this thread Colin Meads stated the losing 1966 Lions side was better
than the winning 1971 side he played against both sides.But for the Goalkicking of Don Clarke
the 1959 side would almost certainly have won.
In my opinion THE Greatest Lions was the 1955 side which drew with a Bok side that was
almost the equal of the Great Bok 1951-2 side.
The 1950 side is also almost totally ignored. Players like Jeff Butterfield,Peter Jackson,Jack
Mathews,Bleddyn Williams,Roy John,Richard Sharp,JohnPullen.Bev Risman,Jackie Kyle.
Those were members of sides who met very strong All Black and Bok sides 1950,55,59,were relatively
speaking stronger than.The AB/Bok sides of the 1970`s.If you doubt me look up the relevant
records.The AB`s lost one series 1950-69,Boks I think one series and a drawn series. IN the
1970`s the NH Coaching had caught up and surpassed the SH for awhile.
As a comparison again quoting Colin Meads the losing 1965 touring side was better than
the winning 1970 Bok side again he played against both.
It is also germane to take into account life in post war Britain few players could afford even
one tour let alone 4 0r 5.Often friends and relatives subbed them remember a Tour lasted
6 months,with weeks travelling each way by sea 36 matches sometimes.A full tour of
SA and NZ in cluded a mini-tour of Australia plus perhaps a couple in Canada on the way home.
Also do you consider what passes for Lions Tours these days the last two all the star players
were hidden for the tests.Club sides were shadows of there full strength sides with the odd exception.The Format of instead of having 4 tests interspersed twixt provincial matches.
Also it needs to be said is a Lions tour Versus Australia the equal of one versus Boks or AllBlacks.Historically I should say no,nothing like. THERE is no greatest Lion it is a team
game. Many members of individual Lions sides were THE best in there positions but in
some cases,THE BEST had to stay at home for various reasons.
As an aside in 1955 Heinz57 scored 16 tries,in 1959 he scored 19 his wing partner
Peter Jackson scored 16.HE is THE bestEnglish WTQ I`ve seen in 60 years not lightning
quick like John Young,or Ted Woodward famed for his Maori sidestep his contempories.
BUT had more ways of beating a man than any I`ve seen since from an English wing.

Breadvan wrote:Mufasa
Simba
Elsa
Nala
Scar
Cowardly

 

not happy with this list . where's Clarence

George Carlin wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Exactly. I was saying nothing more than that, and I certainly don't want to discuss BOD again.

You already did because it doesnt take a genius to read between the lines on your post and understand what you were trying to say and what you have just confirmed.

FES comment was about Leonard. What has that got to do with O'Driscoll?

When did I say anything about BOD? You mentioned him before me confirming that you too understood what FES was trying to say.

GunsGerms wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Exactly. I was saying nothing more than that, and I certainly don't want to discuss BOD again.

You already did because it doesnt take a genius to read between the lines on your post and understand what you were trying to say and what you have just confirmed.

FES comment was about Leonard. What has that got to do with O'Driscoll?

When did I say anything about BOD? You mentioned him before me confirming that you too understood what FES was trying to say.

Reminds me of the Lee Mack story:
 
Random Caller: "Hello Dave".
Lee Mack: "Oh, sorry, I think you've got the wrong number. My name's Lee".
Random Caller: "But this is your number, Dave".
Lee Mack: "You know what? You're right. I must be Dave".
Random Caller: "I thought it was you, Dave".

To be fair it was me who thought he was talking about BOD. On reflection silly assumption as the link to Roberts shows BOD did exactly as Leonard did.

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:

Breadvan wrote:Mufasa
Simba
Elsa
Nala
Scar
Cowardly

 

                         not happy with this list . where's Clarence

Nah its Aslan!

On a serious note...for me the two names that just reads British (& Irish Lions) would be Geech or Willie John...take your pick.

Why are so many prominant Lions named after casual terms for the male phallus? Johnson, Willie, Dickie, Richard Cockerill... the list goes on.

Another vote for MJ.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Why are so many prominant Lions named after casual terms for the male phallus? Johnson, Willie, Dickie, Richard Cockerill... the list goes on.

Dont forget Woodie. The biggest phallus of them all.

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Why are so many prominant Lions named after casual terms for the male phallus? Johnson, Willie, Dickie, Richard Cockerill... the list goes on.

Dont forget Woodie. The biggest phallus of them all.

Great point. WoodWood. Such a phallus they named it twice.

Hardly the best or most complete list to choose from but in playing the game I voted for Willie John

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Why are so many prominant Lions named after casual terms for the male phallus? Johnson, Willie, Dickie, Richard Cockerill... the list goes on.

Dont forget Woodie. The biggest phallus of them all.

Great point. WoodWood. Such a phallus they named it twice.

Did you know that Willie Cummins played for NZ in around the 1920s?