The greatest of all time

After watching this weeks edition of impact with flair, sting and hogan all involved in the main event it got me thinking if you added the undertaker to that trio you would probably have the four biggest draws and debatably the four greatest wrestlers of all time! I'm not implying that the four aforementioned competitors are still main event caliber or can still cut it at the top level because that is evidently not the case, but in terms of their track records, championship reigns and house hold name factor you would class them as top draw.

So my question to you is... Who would you class as the greatest of all time? Whats your top four and why? I don't wanna know about personal favourites as that was done a couple of weeks back but if you had to pick your top stars of all time who would they be and why?

Please try to evaluate:

Ability to draw
Championships
In ring ability
Promo skills
5 star matches

Peace

HBK, Austin, Bret Hart, Kurt Angle.

In that order.

Steiner - God on the mic
Jeff Hardy - exciting and innovative when not high
Austin
Flair

I must admit I've never been a huge Steiner fan, find most of his in ring stuff a bit boring and I always struggle to 100% understand what he's saying on the mic, but I must admit he can be quite amusing at times!

I can't give my top one, because I think that the specifications you have given are different per wrestler. For instance I think Hogan was the biggest draw, especially in the late 80's, but I wouldn't say he has the best in-ring ability. So I will answer it separately:

Ability to draw - Hogan

Championships - Flair (deserved or not, but you can't argue with the scope of titles this guy has won)

In ring ability - HBK

Promo skills - Rock

5 star matches - HBK/Undertaker (Undie is a personal preference as I always love to see him in a match even against opponents that I know would not deliver a class match)

Overall, reading it back, I suppose I would have to go for HBK. However I am still debating with myself whether you can truly class him as the best of all time. It depends what you think is important in a wrestler.

As a side note, I would say none of the new generation would come close, even in 10 years time.

If you have to include in-ring ability and 5 star matches you cant include Hogan and Sting, Flair and Taker are legitimate shouts though.

If you're looking for guys who tick all the boxes in your criteria you cant look past Samo's 4 to be fair. I'd also add Triple H, Randy Savage and The Rock into the mix. Im also certain that in 5 years time we can comfortably add CM Punk to it too after the shackles have finally been released.

Tbh Mr H it was a close call for me between Angle and Rocky, Rock was better on the Mic but Angle was by far the better in ring. Rocky was probably the bigger draw but Angle has had more 5 star matchs and better Championship runs. Angle JUST pipped Rock.

I'll agree with Savage and Trips, top 10 definatly.

Mr H wrote: Im also certain that in 5 years time we can comfortably add CM Punk to it too after the shackles have finally been released.

I would add a bif "IF" to this sentence. Granted if the shackles do come off, then I agree with you 100 per cent. I just don't see any indication that this may happen at the moment. But that is a different issue.

Ability to draw - Rock
Championships - Angle
In ring ability - Angle
Promo skills - Rock
5 star matches - Angle

Angle wins 3-2 for me, so i'd agree with you Samo that he just pips it.

xTwisTx - Thats a fair enough comment i suppose, but for me the shackles are already off. Beating the number one guy in the company at MITB, being given license to shoot promo, then fueding with the legendary Triple H tells me the the WWE have massive trust in CM Punk. They wouldnt pull the trigger on just anyone, Punk is special and i think Vince has finally realised that.

@ Twist I like what you've done by selecting each wrestler to fit each option.

Yes hogan didn't have the in ring skills to match his draw but the later was so great he has to be a contender. I think if you evaluate each contender in the previously mentioned specifications each would have sections that are move heavily weighted.

Eg

Hogan: draw 60% in ring 10% championships 15% promo 10% 5 star matches 5%

Your though please and weightings for other wrestles would interesting!

I don't want to get off topic, so I will keep it short. I don't think that they have that much trust in Punk AT THE MOMENT. It smacks of them testing the water a little in my opinion and seeing what the reaction is. I very much doubt WWE had a choice with Punk winning at MITB due to the storyline they made, and the location of the match. I would say that until Punk beats Cena again and HHH clean, then I still have my doubts. I think we will know the answer come Wrestlemania, maybe as soon as the Rumble.

Back on topic - how are you guys judging the "championship" criteria? It is a little vague. For instance how do you class Angle better than Flair on this? I am not saying that isn't the case, I am just trying to see how you came to that conclusion.

Do championships really matter? If that were the case then Cena would be considered the greatest of all time

I personally would class the amount of championships as the be all and end all of the section but does have some impact yes, I would consider this area to include:

Amount of titles won
Variety of titles won
Overall Champion persona ie did there heel or face reign work and get over
Quality of championship run, ie 5 days like christain or a year like jbl

And so on you get the idea!

In that case I stand by what I said. Flair trumps Angle in this respect.

Apologies I ment to say that I WOULDN'T class the amount of titles as the be all and end all!!! Doh sorry damn IPhone keypad!

Kurt Angle, Shawn Michaels, The Rock, Triple H, Stone Cold and Undertaker. I know that is 6 but these are the all round best wrestlers I have personally witnessed for varying reasons. No one really comes close imo. (I've been watching for around 12-13 years)

Not wanting to be a killjoy but I don't feel I can answer this question the way you intended it as it mixes the art of pro wrestling with the business of pro wrestling. As far as the buisiness is concerned any catagory other than drawing is pretty much redundant, Bums in seats, TV ratings, PPV buys and merch sales trump 5 star matches everytime. In this respect the greatest wrestlers in the history of the bussiness are undoubtedly either Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin (in the US anyways), both were the top stars of the worlds biggest wrestling promotion at there greatest boom periods, if I had to opt for one it would probably be Hulk Hogan as he was the face that popularised wrestling and laid the foundations for all that came after.

Now as far as the art of pro wrestling is concerned, and tbh the side that I personally am far more interested in, I would rank HBK, Kurt Angle and Randy Savage as my top 3 all round wrestlers of all time, all 3 men were fantastic in the ring, both with talented and not so talented workers, at one time or another if someone has said 'if _______ can't get a good match out of them no one can' has been said in the respect of all 3. All 3 also had there own clearly defined personality's from Savage's flamboyant wildman, to Angle's no nonsense wrestling machine, and too top it all off, they are all fantastic on the mic and can pull off so many facets so well, serious, funny, face or heel. No one else for me is in the same league as these 3 men

I agree dr tho my thoughts in creating this thread was to establish people's thoughts on who the greatest of all time is, incorporating all facits of the business as a whole. Angle wil go down in history as the most technically gifted performer the business has ever seen while hbk has that x factor that embodies everything from mic skills to ability to draw.

As mentioned above i can't see who the next 'great' that embodies all of the factors will be maybe orton maybe punk but I don't know if either of them does or will ever have the same draw as some of the guys that have been mentioned previously. Maybe it's the nostalgic gloss that iwc fans tend to put on their past favs that the current crop can never match up to????

MtotheC wrote:I agree dr tho my thoughts in creating this thread was to establish people's thoughts on who the greatest of all time is, incorporating all facits of the business as a whole. Angle wil go down in history as the most technically gifted performer the business has ever seen while hbk has that x factor that embodies everything from mic skills to ability to draw.

As mentioned above i can't see who the next 'great' that embodies all of the factors will be maybe orton maybe punk but I don't know if either of them does or will ever have the same draw as some of the guys that have been mentioned previously. Maybe it's the nostalgic gloss that iwc fans tend to put on their past favs that the current crop can never match up to????

While Im going to hit and run as Im due at football in under 10 minutes, I would suggest that HBK is a proven draw as ratings, which weren't at Rock an' Wrestling or Attitude era highs to begin with, slipped when he releived the title from Bret Hart.

In the spirit of your thread I will try and figure out who ranks highest for me in all of your catagories and report back

Has Kurt Angle ever had a 5* match?

the-gaffer wrote:Has Kurt Angle ever had a 5* match?

That's exactly what I was thinking, but it seemed (by the general feeling here) that he had. I have no doubt that he has the power to elevate a good match to a great match. But I would still class HBK above him in this respect.

the-gaffer wrote:Has Kurt Angle ever had a 5* match?

Don't think that he has ever had a Melzer rated 5* match but would have thought that his Iron Man match with Brock Lesnar would be at that level for quality in the ring at least.

I meant officially, I don't think he has had an official 5* match, I also don't know if he's ever had an unofficial 5* match though I'd say he's probably had more 4+* matches than anyone else

I rate Randy Savage Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart ahead of him and Chris Benoit not far behind him

The three matches from Kurt's career that spring to mind are one with HBK, Iron Man with Lesnar and one in TNA aroune 08 with Samoa Joe

Ability to Draw: Austin - This guy gets the crowds in and gets the biggest pops I have ever heard.

Championships: Bret Hart - Across the range. He had classic Intercontinental Championship matches and WWF Championship matches.

In Ring Ability: Michaels - Has had every type of match there is in the WWE. For that I hang this on him because of versatility.

Promo Skills: The Rock - By far the best on the mic I have ever heard.

5 star matches: Bret Hart - Owen Hart Steel Cage Match at Summerslam 1995 and WMX and also against Davey Boy Smith Summerslam 1992 and least not forget HBK Iron Man Match at WM XII

The Iron Man Match at Mania 12 was no way 5 star in my opinion.

5 star matches would surely have to go to Shawn Michaels. Razor Ramon, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, The Undertaker and Ric Flair all at Wrestlemania are all far more entertaining in ring matches than any of Bret Harts.

Ric Flair at Mania a 5 star?? Not a chance

The Iron Man match was epic in all proportions. No way has Kurt Angle wrestled a better match at WM than Hart. Nor Jericho for that matter.

So Bret Hart v Stone Cold at WM13 was not 5 star or entertaining??

Bret had some truly amazing matches too, ones with Owen Hart, at least three with Mr Perfect, a couple with Shawn Michaels (ladder match and Survivor Series 92) The British Bulldog, 123 Kid, Bam Bam Bigalow (in Barcelona) Razor Ramon and he also gave Diesel his best ever match, those are just off the top of my head and thats excluding two of my favourite matches at Mania Roddy Piper at WM8 and Austin at WM13

legendkillar wrote:Ric Flair at Mania a 5 star?? Not a chance

The Iron Man match was epic in all proportions. No way has Kurt Angle wrestled a better match at WM than Hart. Nor Jericho for that matter.

I didnt say Flair at Mania was 5 star did i, i just said i found it more entertaining than any of Bret Harts matches. The story and the emotion of it had me hooked. Dont get me wrong Bret Hart is technically sound and no doubt one of the best ever, but personally i found alot of his matches too methodical and i quickly got bored of his moveset.

This is turning into personal preference, which is hard to get away from when you are answering these type of questions.

For example, I would class HHH v Undertaker at the last Wrestlemania to be a better match than Michaels and Harts Iron man match. I will get shot down for that, but again it is personal preference. That said, for in ring ability, I would class both Hart and Michaels above Taker and HHH.

The greatest of all time is just too hard to answer. I mean what about Kenta Kobashi and other NOAH wrestlers? As draws they have probably put more bums on seats in Japan than anyone in WWE. Then you have Bruno Sammartino as well.

I would say all our top 10's would be pretty similar. In what order they appear would be a different story.

legendkillar wrote:So Bret Hart v Stone Cold at WM13 was not 5 star or entertaining??

Of course it was, it was amazing. But in terms of longetivity Shawn Michaels had a 5 star match against Razor Ramon at Wrestlemania 10, and then 15 years later had one against The Undertaker.

[quote="xTwisTx"]This is turning into personal preference, which is hard to get away from when you are answering these type of questions. quote]

Of course its personal preference, what do you expect? Not everyone is going to have the same answer. Not trying to be funny, but asking who is the greatest of all time is always going to divide opinion because of personal preference.

Yeah I know, but the original question didn't want personal favourites, which as we have seen has become impossible.

My top 4 in no particular order are HBK, Randy Savage, Kurt Angle, Bret Hart. Not just because of there own ability's, but because they could bring the best out of there opponents. Making most of there matchs enjoyable.
The champion criteria dosn't mean much, with the way the titles have been thrown around the last few years. Personally i prefer good in ring abilitys to good promos. Ability to draw an intresting one, because of the way the companys push certain people means it's hard to judge the people below.
Surly the 5 star matches is an opinion. We can all watch the same match and will have different opinions on it. It's very rare that a match (HHH V Undertaker for example) makes everyone go wow.

xTwisTx wrote:Yeah I know, but the original question didn't want personal favourites, which as we have seen has become impossible.

I think you are missing my point.

The original question asked 'Who would you class as the greatest of all time?'. Every answer you will receive to that question will be everyones personal favourite, right? Like i think HBK is the greatest of all time. Some think Hart is the greatest of all time. Some think Austin is the greatest of all time. Its all personal preference.

Do you understand?

Of course when dealing with this kind of subject mater people's personal opinions are always going to differ and end up relating to people's fav wrestlers. But I have tried to look at this objectively and take into account all of specifications. I think it is impossible to name an overall winer because hogan is without doubt the biggest draw in history but his in ring abillity is no where near as good. I think twist had it bang on when he gave an answer for each area and here's mine:

Draw: hogan

In ring ability: Kurt angle

Championships: Flair

Promo: The Rock

5* matches: HBK

I would also be interested if people gave their ideas on who from the current era would fill these specifications, therefore not the greatest of all time just the best if today! Slightly off topic but I don't wanna start a new thread for basically the say subject mater.

Here's mine

Ability to draw: John cena

In ring ability: AJ Styles

Championships: Edge (i know he's retired but only just)

Promo: CM Punk

5* Matches: I'm stuck on this one need more time to think!!!!

Your thoughts please

Mr H wrote:

xTwisTx wrote:Yeah I know, but the original question didn't want personal favourites, which as we have seen has become impossible.

I think you are missing my point.

The original question asked 'Who would you class as the greatest of all time?'. Every answer you will receive to that question will be everyones personal favourite, right? Like i think HBK is the greatest of all time. Some think Hart is the greatest of all time. Some think Austin is the greatest of all time. Its all personal preference.

Do you understand?

I am not missing the point at all, I just read what the first post was:

"So my question to you is... Who would you class as the greatest of all time? Whats your top four and why? I don't wanna know about personal favourites as that was done a couple of weeks back but if you had to pick your top stars of all time who would they be and why?"

And, as we have already gathered, you can't do questions like this without getting personal favourites in the way. It is hard to be subjective.

That is why I split the criteria down and made a judgement on each one. As I have said, someone with best pulling power (like Hogan) may not have the best in-ring ability. So by breaking it down I tried to be subjective as I could, but I would not like to pin down an overall winner.

Do you understand?

@ twist this stems from my original question, which I know is impossible to answer without personal opinion, what I was trying to get at with the original question was that a few weeks back there was a thread by owl hitman I think that was called my top 5, what I wanted to was find out based on the spec given was the greatest of all time not people's top 5 favs. Hope this clears things up a bit.

Banging my head against a brick wall here.

How can you ask someone a question of who is the greatest of all time, then ask them not to say their personal favourite? It just doesnt make sense! I think Shawn Michaels is the greatest of all time, but if someone else doesnt think so, does that make me wrong? Hence why every answer is down to personal preference.

Maybe its just me, but i dont see how you can answer the question without personal preference.



Maybe its just me!

In the words of the Rock - it really does not matter, I see alot of these "who the best, great, mic talker" threads and nobody can ever agree or someone's opinion is always better then someone else. Thats why I never get involved in these dam things.

And for the record its impossible to do these without personal preference and unless someone has the figures of who drew what at certain times its always going to be personal opinion isnt it?

I think the guy who had it all, the look, the ability to have top quality matches, the drawing power and who was brilliant on the mic is none other than 'The Macho Man' Randy Savage, he ticked every single box

His look and character was unique, his charisma was through the roof and he was Mr WrestleMania long before Shawn Michaels, in terms of the overall package he had the lot

Mr H wrote:The Iron Man Match at Mania 12 was no way 5 star in my opinion.

5 star matches would surely have to go to Shawn Michaels. Razor Ramon, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, The Undertaker and Ric Flair all at Wrestlemania are all far more entertaining in ring matches than any of Bret Harts.

I didnt say Flair at Mania was 5 star did i, i just said i found it more entertaining than any of Bret Harts matches. The story and the emotion of it had me hooked. Dont get me wrong Bret Hart is technically sound and no doubt one of the best ever, but personally i found alot of his matches too methodical and i quickly got bored of his moveset. [/quote]

So what did you say???

And you want to bang your head against the wall or shall I do it for you?

Please listen closely... The concept of the thread was to establish people's thoughts on the greatest of all time taking into account the spec given. Of course personal preference comes into it! what I didn't want was a list of people's top 5 or fav wrestlers as it's been done a couple of weeks ago and many times in the past I'm sure. Maybe I wasn't clear enough so sorry if your banging your head against a wall, or if these damn things are beneath you.

What was done a few weeks ago by Hero was by far the most accurate, it allowed people to rate out of 10 for each specific section, then it was added up.

Personally if the rating was out of 10 for every section I doubt Savage would get under 8 for any ability

I think my choices were made by what I had seen in the ring. Not by who I favoured. For example me having HBK as the best in-ring skills. HBK like I stated competed in all matches. Physical ones for example the first HITC. No-one could sell brutality in such way in which HBK did or when he faced HHH at SS in 2002 and considering he hadn't competed in a match for 4 years, he showed little rust. Had great matches with Angle, Hart, Benoit. My rating was based on durability and longevity.

Ability to draw - The Rock
Championships - Edge
In ring ability - Kurt Angle
Promo skills - Chris Jericho
5 star matches - Chris Jericho

SCSA, Kurt Angle, Edge, HBK, HHH

the-gaffer wrote:What was done a few weeks ago by Hero was by far the most accurate, it allowed people to rate out of 10 for each specific section, then it was added up

Couldn't agree more Gaff.

If I had to judge it down to one category ability to draw is far more important than ability to put on a good match...

Therefore Hogan, Austin, Rock will always be the top 3

Good point about Savage though gaff he could be the most complete wrestler ever