Greatest Lion of (almost) All Time

First topic message reminder :

What is a great Lion? A player who stood out amongst his peers and was selected to captain the formidable force of Britain and Ireland combined? a man who could meld diverse talents into a sum total greater than the disparate parts?

Or the player who let his actions speak louder than his captain's cry? etching his name on history with record breaking performances and a rare series win over Southern Hemisphere giants?

Or perhaps a player who's perennial standard of excellence made him the first name on the Lions team sheet tour after tour?

Vote Now!

p.s. I've no idea how to rank players before 1970 so I'm ignoring them.

Taking away the arrogance of the guy, in the late 80s/early 90s he was a top player. Gained respect for him after his 2nd half performance in the 95 SF... doesn't mean I don't think he's still a bit of a d*** mind. His comments on Lomu really summed up his whole attitude.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:There was a player a few years back in the london middlesex leagues who only had one arm and one leg. The guy was/is an absolute legend.... used to drink out of his prosthetic leg after the match.

Was he allowed play with a prosthetic leg?

He would speak with the opposition before the game and say "don't drag me out of a ruck please.... you might pull my leg off and give yourself a bit of a fright".

Hood83 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:iOS7 is a pile of unusable crap and makes responding to 606v2 almost impossibly slow.

Irrelevant to the thread, please stop derailing it.

I went for McBride from this hopelessly limited list. Could you explain what criteria you used to pick these players?

Someone asked the question - and it's my thread. You are derailing it by querying the candidates - all of whom were selected by rigorous analysis of their contributions. Either through point scoring, immediate assists, vital turning point plays in vital games or by other cumulative contribution like being captain.

GunsGerms wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

emack2 wrote:Yes,I know of Blair Mayne 1938 Lion to SA,but know him more for his war record he was if
memory serves.More for his services with the SAS/LRDG or whatever history was my thing
than his Rugby.BUT he was probably special to make the squad Boks were in there golden
period.1937 Boks were revered as THE Greatest team ever to tour there the only one to win a series in NZ.

On the subject of rugby playing war heroes I seem to remember that Douglas Bader was on the verge of an England call up when he lost his legs.

There was once an Irish player who only had one hand. Only one handed player ever to play international rugby. He was an outhalf I think.

Don't mean to sound ungracious...but how bad was that Irish team?

Yet you still left out Mike Gibson. What was this rigorous analysis???

GunsGerms wrote:Would you expect Carling to say anything else?

  not really ,boy did i hate him around that time tho . .

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:i really dont think you can compare past and present players on skill and how many points scored . i think the post means legend status ,ie. to have been there and done it at least 3 tours   whether you won it or not . so having leigh halfpenny running for the greatest lions player is laughable . i remember in an interview with will Carling at his peak , he was ask whether his England side could be beat the Welsh 70s .He rightly said yes , the fitness ,discipline and  game planning would be too much for them . so you can't compare past players with present but any player played 3 tours are lion legends in my mind .

I wouldn't drag Carling onto a Lions thread. He never really grasped the concept of the Lions, or if he did he certainly didn't care a great deal for it.

Not a bad player Carling, but never a great one. Frank Bunce made a bit of a mess of him in 1995, and he wasn't in the same league as Horan at inside centre (few are or were).

fa0019 wrote:Yet you still left out Mike Gibson. What was this rigorous analysis???

It seems to have unearthed some myths, doesn't it?

GloriousEmpire wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Yet you still left out Mike Gibson. What was this rigorous analysis???

It seems to have unearthed some myths, doesn't it?

Irish centres are always overrated.....

 

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:iOS7 is a pile of unusable crap and makes responding to 606v2 almost impossibly slow.

Irrelevant to the thread, please stop derailing it.

I went for McBride from this hopelessly limited list. Could you explain what criteria you used to pick these players?

Someone asked the question - and it's my thread. You are derailing it by querying the candidates - all of whom were selected by rigorous analysis of their contributions. Either through point scoring, immediate assists, vital turning point plays in vital games or by other cumulative contribution like being captain.

Temper. No it's a question directly relevant to the OP, surely? OK, so on the basis of that rigorous analysis, how have you not picked so many nailed on Lions legends? Just seems an extremely limited list.

Hood83 wrote:Don't mean to sound ungracious...but how bad was that Irish team?

He lost all three international matches he started. Wasnt a particularly handy player.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Yet you still left out Mike Gibson. What was this rigorous analysis???

It seems to have unearthed some myths, doesn't it?

That you have a deep knowledge/understanding on rugby?.... na, that myth was unearthed about post 1.

GunsGerms wrote:

Hood83 wrote:Don't mean to sound ungracious...but how bad was that Irish team?

He lost all three international matches he started. Wasnt a particularly handy player.

Boom boom

funnyExiledScot wrote:Irish centres are always overrated.....
 

Has Scotland ever had a world class centre? Scott Hastings maybe.

Limited knowledge begets a limited list. I find it hard to criticise anyone for not knowing much; it would be helpful if they didn't show it while displaying Mrs Malaprop's flair for language, but it's good to see a desire to co-opt a bit of help from people who've been watching rugby for a little longer.

Pars sanitatis velle sanari fruit, as I'm sure the OP would agree.

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Irish centres are always overrated.....
 

Has Scotland ever had a world class centre? Scott Hastings maybe.

Alan Tait.
Ian McGeechan.
Scott Hastings.

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Irish centres are always overrated.....
 

Has Scotland ever had a world class centre? Scott Hastings maybe.

Alan Tait.
Ian McGeechan.
Scott Hastings.

Have never seen McGeechan play. Was he any good? Obviously was if he was a Lion.

I remember Tait and Hastings well but wouldnt put them in the same league of either of the Ireland greats.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Yet you still left out Mike Gibson. What was this rigorous analysis???

It seems to have unearthed some myths, doesn't it?

Irish centres are always overrated.....

 

Are you suggesting Paddy Wallace is overrated?

Tait and Hastings were both notable Lions though. BOD more for his time with IRE. Tait would have had a far more notable career had he not gone to league.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Irish centres are always overrated.....
 

Has Scotland ever had a world class centre? Scott Hastings maybe.

Alan Tait.
Ian McGeechan.
Scott Hastings.

Have never seen McGeechan play. Was he any good? Obviously was if he was a Lion.

I remember Tait and Hastings well but wouldnt put them in the same league of either of the Ireland greats.

First of all I was of course kidding. There's no disputing BOD was a world class centre, and although I've never seen Gibson play I'm willing to take it as a given that anyone making 5 Lions tours was a world class player.

I don't think Scotland has ever had a centre of the calibre of Gibson or BOD. McGeechan, Hastings and Tait were all very good players, but not in their league.

rodders wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Yet you still left out Mike Gibson. What was this rigorous analysis???

It seems to have unearthed some myths, doesn't it?

Irish centres are always overrated.....

 

Are you suggesting Paddy Wallace is overrated?

Not by me!

even then GG. The 2 we are speaking of are 2 of the finest players in modern history. Its a very small group they belong too.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Limited knowledge begets a limited list. I find it hard to criticise anyone for not knowing much; it would be helpful if they didn't show it while displaying Mrs Malaprop's flair for language, but it's good to see a desire to co-opt a bit of help from people who've been watching rugby for a little longer.

Pars sanitatis velle sanari fruit, as I'm sure the OP would agree.

Fuit, surely old boy?

fa0019 wrote:Tait and Hastings were both notable Lions though. BOD more for his time with IRE. Tait would have had a far more notable career had he not gone to league.

They both have two caps each for the Lions.

The only difference was that they were notable performers in winning series.

Hastings was top draw in 89 mind.... missed the tests in 93 via getting his jaw smashed up. Tait, lost most of his career to league but in 97 he was very decent too.

Those guys were world class, alongside chaps like greenwood etc as the best of their generation.

Chaps like BOD reached higher levels mind.

Not a winning series, but BOD in the 1st Test of the 2001 series was about as good a performance as I've seen from a centre (playing outside Rob Henderson - rare for being a very underrated Irish player in my view).

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Irish centres are always overrated.....
 

Has Scotland ever had a world class centre? Scott Hastings maybe.

Alan Tait.
Ian McGeechan.
Scott Hastings.

Have never seen McGeechan play. Was he any good? Obviously was if he was a Lion.

I remember Tait and Hastings well but wouldnt put them in the same league of either of the Ireland greats.

First of all I was of course kidding. There's no disputing BOD was a world class centre, and although I've never seen Gibson play I'm willing to take it as a given that anyone making 5 Lions tours was a world class player.

I don't think Scotland has ever had a centre of the calibre of Gibson or BOD. McGeechan, Hastings and Tait were all very good players, but not in their league.

True, but there's no great shame in effectively saying that we don't have anyone comparable to one of the best two inside centres of all time (Gibson, Horan being the other) and one of the best four outside centres of all time (BOD, with Gerber, Sella and Conrad Smith being the others, in my tiny opinion).
 
Hastings and Tait played a major part in Lions successes and that's good enough for me.
 
But feck all that, all that's changed now that we've got Mark 'the Messiah' Bennett amongst us now.

he was english for starters!

funnyExiledScot wrote:Not a winning series, but BOD in the 1st Test of the 2001 series was about as good a performance as I've seen from a centre (playing outside Rob Henderson - rare for being a very underrated Irish player in my view).

Maybe because he was born in England. Seriously though at his peak he was excellent but only managed 30 or so caps and was injured a lot if I remember right.

He was injury prone, but when he was fit and playing I always rated Henderson very highly indeed. Had the rare combination of being a big lump yet with great distribution skills.

Us Scots rugby fans have long ceased drawing a distinction based on where our rugby players were born!!

What an eye.

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Not a winning series, but BOD in the 1st Test of the 2001 series was about as good a performance as I've seen from a centre (playing outside Rob Henderson - rare for being a very underrated Irish player in my view).

Maybe because he was born in England. Seriously though at his peak he was excellent but only managed 30 or so caps and was injured a lot if I remember right.

I think he didn't get on with EOS, who was a stickler for fitness, because he was fond of the odd fag and pint. Better player than Maggs imo.

He was alright but Maggs was still very good.

funnyExiledScot wrote:He was injury prone, but when he was fit and playing I always rated Henderson very highly indeed. Had the rare combination of being a big lump yet with great distribution skills.

Us Scots rugby fans have long ceased drawing a distinction based on where our rugby players were born!!

Who does?

nganboy wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:He was injury prone, but when he was fit and playing I always rated Henderson very highly indeed. Had the rare combination of being a big lump yet with great distribution skills.

Us Scots rugby fans have long ceased drawing a distinction based on where our rugby players were born!!

Who does?

You'd be surprised, Ngan. There is a certain generation of fan that wants no Muggles to ever wear international colours.

nganboy wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:He was injury prone, but when he was fit and playing I always rated Henderson very highly indeed. Had the rare combination of being a big lump yet with great distribution skills.

Us Scots rugby fans have long ceased drawing a distinction based on where our rugby players were born!!

Who does?

Just read the thread above. You only have to scroll up a few inches.....

George Carlin wrote:

nganboy wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:He was injury prone, but when he was fit and playing I always rated Henderson very highly indeed. Had the rare combination of being a big lump yet with great distribution skills.

Us Scots rugby fans have long ceased drawing a distinction based on where our rugby players were born!!

Who does?

You'd be surprised, Ngan. There is a certain generation of fan that wants no Muggles to ever wear international colours.

Muggles!

Dan Parks and Brendan Laney were Muggles. No magic whatsoever!!

Glorious Empire you started this thread with 9 names,like everyone here you have an opinion also you are one of the most
avid posters here.Often you post threads that appear to be deliberate wums,or sidetrack threads but you still deserve respect.
I will treat this thread with that respect since the 1890`s there has been 36 Lions tours to Argentina,Australia,South Africa
and NewZealand. Of those there 15 wins,1 drawn,20 lost,these include 4 wins and a draw versus SA and a single win NZ.
You have stated 1970`s onward fair enough but how can you exclude Ollie Campbell,Mike Gibson,Tony Ward[who scored
most points in a test match v SA],Ian McGeechan,in one position alone.What does the Lions mean to you?for me it is
sacred the only one of 2 links with the past still extant.What do points scored,or Record totals matter versus teams
without there stars.As has occurred in the last two series,how can you compare Goalkicking today with the era`s earlier.
Open Stadia,a scrape in mud or sand for a tee,bog standard boots,heavy leather ball,with a different design in each
country.With today designer boots,standard plastic coated ball,kicking tee,kicking coaches,or even the game.Fifteen
men,no subs,no energy drinks every ten minutes,no cards,injured if you could stand you played on even with one arm/leg.
One of my most treasured Rugby books was a privately published,autographed copy of the 1950 Lions tour.Captained
by Karl Mullen there was a significant Irish contingent,Lane,Henderson,McKay,Kyle,a young Malcom Thomas who also
toured 1955,59.Rex Willis,Bledynn Williams,Jack Mathews,Roy John and Rees Stephens,Robins,Black,Budge from England.
R.W.H.Scott complimented the side saying it was the KIWI`S[NZ FORCES SIDE}in reverse Kiwi`s were renowned for
the open style of play.The Lions also were historically linked with events that changed the course of Rugby history the
1930 Lions defeat lead to outlawing the 2-3-2 Scrum.Enforcing NZ to adopt another the Bok 3-4-1 Scrum an event which
entailed or contributed to the AB`s record 1935[lost to England and Wales]Boks 1937,1949,Australia 1949.The 1949 tour
to SA was a Tour from Hell,best players barred by politics,home town Refs,No Scrum,no goalkicker and Hennie Muller.
BUT courtesy of Dr.Danie Craven the 3-4-1 Scrum was fixed,leading to there relative success 1950-69.Also politics meant
that players like Bryn Meredith the best Hooker in NH had to stand down for Dawson as team Captain 1959.

Players shouldn't be penalised just because they play in the professional era. 

Whether 1/2p would've scored as many points in 1922 is irrelevant. The point is that he contributed more than any other player in my opinion to an historic and probably lions salvaging series win and that alone deserves plaudits.

'avid' - I like that!

Still nothing to say about rugby Cyril?

I thought I was on the sailing forum.

Lions can't swim and lack the problem solving skills and opposable thumbs to use the tools necessary to build yachts.

Lions can swim.

David Attenborough said so.

The yacht-building will require chimp expertise though.

Lionesses can swim. Lions, not so much.

Hmmm. They're not brilliant swimmers but they can do ok.

Surely if you're a decent sailor you shouldn't be in the water anyway.

Here we go again a sensible thread hijacked by stupid comments AGAIN.GE you are as entitled as any to your opinion no one should ridicule you for it.Least of all myself I am
an old man bought up in the history of the Lions etc.I NEVER make direct comments on
who is the best threads because there is NO one answer.As to the recent Lions tour and
the current state of Australian Rugby it puts the series in perspective.BOTH the tests won
by either side in my opinion should have gone the other way.Like wise in 2009 the Lions
again in my opinion should have won another Test.BUT they didn't.

tests one and two should have been reversed. For me two major decisions gave this series to the Lions. The selection and retention of JOC at 10 for all 3 tests when it was clear he was not up for it, and BODs dropping. For me it unleashed the backline to a level that wins tests at international level. Dont know or care whether it directly was a result of BODs ommission but that 3rd test backline showed the world how to run the ball- something other sides could take note of...

Agree on the chimps.