Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

It had to come eventually.

Squad

HOOKER
Rory Best, Rob Herring, Niall Annett
PROP
Tom Court, Callum Black, Paddy McAllister, Declan Fitzpatrick, John Afoa, Bronson Ross, Adam Macklin, Ricky Lutton
LOCK
Johann Muller (c), Dan Tuohy, Neil McComb, Lewis Stevenson
BACKROW
Iain Henderson, Stephen Ferris, Mike McComish, Sean Doyle, Chris Henry, Robbie Diack, Roger Wilson, Nick Williams
SCRUM-HALF
Ruan Pienaar, Michael Heaney, Paul Marshall
OUTHALF
Paddy Jackson, James McKinney
CENTRES
Stuart Olding, Luke Marshall, Paddy Wallace, Darren Cave, Michael Allen
WING
Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble, Craig Gilroy, Chris Cochrane
FULL BACK
Jared Payne, Peter Nelson, David McIlwaine

Confirmed Pre-Season Games
Ulster Rugby vs Leinster Rugby, 23rd August
Leicester Tigers vs Ulster Rugby, 31st August

Heineken Cup Pool 5
Ulster Rugby, Leicester Tigers, Montpellier, Treviso

Ulster Rugby vs Leicester Tigers, 11th October
Montpellier vs Ulster Rugby, 19th October
Ulster Rugby vs Treviso, 7th December
Treviso vs Ulster Rugby, 14th December
Ulster Rugby vs Montpellier, 10th-12th January
Leicester Tigers vs Ulster Rugby, 17th-19th January

RaboDirectPro12

First five games starting on the 6th September;

Newport Gwent Dragons vs Ulster Rugby    
Ulster Rugby vs Glasgow Warriors            
Connacht Rugby vs Ulster Rugby
Ulster Rugby vs Benetton Treviso
Ospreys vs Ulster Rugby

Full fixtures at http://www.ulsterrugby.com/rugby/results_1stxv.php

geoff998rugby wrote:Ulster in a good position that all major players are signed up beyond 2014 except Rory Best (announcment in the New Year) and the props (other than Callum Black)

Yeah. About that. Jack McGrath is signed up until 2015 also. Conway was signed up to 2014 before he went to Munster.

Never forget that ALL players signed to Irish provinces (Including NIQs) are signed to the IRFU (Or Dublin as you call them) They can move between the provinces without the need to sign any contracts.

Good point.

I'll state here and now no Ulster player will be going south next year unless they are a fringe player considered surplus to requirements.

If what Geoff says is true (and i see no reason to dispute it) there is no way Jackson, Hendo or olding are going anywhere. 

It could be that it won't be from ulster, that Leinster get their 'trade off' so to speak. They might get a dispensation for a project/foreigner, griffin potentially(although fitz might be your 13). Hard to know in truth if this does indeed come to pass.

I there anyway this becomes redundant if Mcallister comes back in good form. Maybe it is just a loan until we see how he goes

The only major players leaving Ulster this year will be Afoa and Muller and both will be replaced

Plus Court who has already been announced of course

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/latest/2013/12/john-afoa-to-leave-ulster.aspx

Well we knew Afoa was going, surprised its to an English club though.  Anybody got an inside word on which English club it is??

The Aviva?? Whats that all about? Does his missus prefer England over NI or what? Clearly family was nowt to do with this decision.

Any inside info Geoff?

This must be a spat? Either that or he burnt his bridges with us before discovering no NZ team wanted to sign him?

Very strange.




Also, is it to early to start talking about which props are out of contract come the summer? Haven't seen a sniff of a name rumoured yet!

His missus prefers NZ.

How many AP clubs would be as accomodating as we have been do you think?

Sorry to see the big lad go. I probably would have been less disappointed if he had headed back to NZ too.

Wish hima nd his family well though.

The Great Aukster wrote:His missus prefers NZ.

I know thats the supposed story Aukster, but the move doesn't add up to that. Perhaps its not so much that she misses NZ, more that she just couldn't stand it in our wee country?
Is she going to move to England? Or did he find himself a club that is going to allow him to go home every other week and miss training and get jet lagged?

The whole thing is fishy to me.

clivemcl wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:His missus prefers NZ.

I know thats the supposed story

No that is the true story, nothing fishy about it.

The Great Aukster wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:His missus prefers NZ.

I know thats the supposed story

No that is the true story, nothing fishy about it.

OK, if its true, it's strange that he isn't going to NZ.

I know you know what I'm getting at.

It doesn't add up.

a) Ulster didn't want him going back and forth and some aviva club where happy enough with an arrangement like that
b) No club in New Zealand wanted to sign him, and Ulster said no.
c) He and his wife are happy continuing the distance and its a simple case of getting a better offer of money over the pond.

(d) ? Longer contract offered.
(e) ? Input from IRFU
(f) ? Somewhere he can get more direct flights home.
(g) ? Maybe somewhere near folks the family know.
...

Darren telling it like it is...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25230420

Saw that - quite shocked. Not that he feels that way, but that he went public about his annoyance.

Someone needs to email the article to Joe, but with a footnote detailing who he is, who he plays for, what his position is, what country he is eligible for, and some footage of him playing.

I don't think he is worried as he literally has nothing to lose. Ulster aren't going to care. 

My worry is that if he has given up on an Ireland career is it possible he will go somewhere with more £££££

Standulstermen wrote:I don't think he is worried as he literally has nothing to lose. Ulster aren't going to care. 

My worry is that if he has given up on an Ireland career is it possible he will go somewhere with more £££££

I have to agree with you on this point. And to be honest, not to start a provincial argument - but coaches will have their favourites - DK and Joe Schmit are no exceptions. Ireland fielded a squad of players in the AI series which included Leinster 1st and 2nd choice players - because they are players that the current coach knows and trusts. I think given time, other players will come into the picture - but for now the Munster, Ulster, and Connacht players have to excel to be considered. Leinster players will have to be shockingly bad not to be selected.

In specific terms though - Roger Wilson is behind Heaslip - no question. I think he perhaps hasn't consistently showed his Northampton for since coming back to Ulster.

I don’t think his ball carrying has been great at all. I’d far rather see a crash ball go to Williams, Best, Tuohy, Henderson, Diack, Henry, Afoa all before Wilson. For such a big lump, he doesn’t seem to make much yardage from what i’ve seen. He also hasn’t had the best time at the base of the scrum in term of ball control either.

Don't mean to incite tempers here lads, but in my opinion he's a bit of a fool. Mentality is awful, I've been saying it here for about a year. Will always blame another man for mistakes, never himself. This article is proof, blaming Joe rather than his ability.

Case in point : Cave is at the receiving end of a rubbish pass, which he subsequently drops. I've seen him choose to give out to the passer, rather than chase the ensuing play. Petty, childish, and absolutely not what Schmidt is looking for.

Daren Cave may have a case for being unfairly treated.

IMHO he is kept out of squads because he only plays one position. Guys like McFadden, Fitzgerald and Earls can get into the squad on the back of their versatility. (Even Trimble to an extent he used to play in the centre and at one point looked a bigger talent than Bowe)

That versatility has a downside too in them never getting a run in one spot, but it gets them into the game.

Seeing as the best Irish player ever to wear shoe leather is a lock for the 13 jersey when fit, Ireland can fit the 3 other players in when he is not fit. (which is a fair bit)

Badly treated or not he does himself no favours comparing Wilson to Heaslip. A similar gulf to himself and Bod.

Add in that Heaslip is made of granite and has only ever missed games through injury once.

Players like SOB and O'Mahony can fill in there as needed.

Same issue.

I would however like to see Cave given a run at some point just to prove if he is up to it or not at international level.

(Could end up like Paddy Wallace at 10 for the PI game in 06 though. i.e. play a stormer and never repeat it.)

kunu wrote:Don't mean to incite tempers here lads, but in my opinion he's a bit of a fool. Mentality is awful, I've been saying it here for about a year. Will always blame another man for mistakes, never himself. This article is proof, blaming Joe rather than his ability.

Case in point : Cave is at the receiving end of a rubbish pass, which he subsequently drops. I've seen him choose to give out to the passer, rather than chase the ensuing play. Petty, childish, and absolutely not what Schmidt is looking for.

Well you have incited my tempers because you are talking through your backside.
You do not have a clue what Darren Cave is like as a person as your post shows.
Best not to comment on something you know nothing about.

As for his comment on Wilson he is not saying he is as good as Heaslip but pointing out the gap in caps is not reflective of their skill level.
When Wilson was at Saints he was the 2nd best IQ 8 but was never included - shortsighted.

Faces not fitting is a fact.
It is an open secret Trimble is not liked by BOD and has suffered as a consequence.

To be honest it would not surprise me if Tuohy came out without something similar to Cave - he is equally hacked off.

Meh, any outrage over this is pretty misplaced. Do you not think any player in his position would feel the same way?

Interesting to learn that some professional players in Ireland share the doubts of some fans over whether Jamie Heaslip merits the status he's be given in the Ireland squad however.

Jen, the idea that there is a similar gulf between Heaslip (a very average international number 8) and Wilson (a good club number 8 who is untested at test level) as there is between one of the greatest outside centres of all time and Darren Cave is pretty ridiculous.

Wilson is a good player and no more, Heaslip is a good player with potential to be better who has been coasting along and putting in performances for Ireland that rank well below other international 8s in the other NH nations for a while now. Is it really surprising that other players within Irish Rugby have picked up on that?

Afoa going has been an open secret for a year.
The story was his wife was homesick and didn't like Belfast.

To be honest he has not been worth the salary in 2013 and Ulster have been more than generous.
Whichever English team it is will regret the decision if she is still homesick and I doubt they will be as
understanding

geoff999rugby wrote:
Faces not fitting is a fact.
It is an open secret Trimble is not liked by BOD and has suffered as a consequence.

How the fock did he get 50 caps then?  

Notch wrote:
Jen, the idea that there is a similar gulf between Heaslip (a very average international number 8) and Wilson (a good club number 8 who is untested at test level) as there is between one of the greatest outside centres of all time and Darren Cave is pretty ridiculous.

Wilson is a good player and no more, Heaslip is a good player with potential to be better who has been coasting along and putting in performances for Ireland that rank well below other international 8s in the other NH nations for a while now. Is it really surprising that other players within Irish Rugby have picked up on that?

We will probably never agree on Heaslip. At least Leinster Ireland and Lions coaches agree with me. That'll do.  

One man's coasting is another man's playing a different type of game.

clivemcl wrote:Saw that - quite shocked. Not that he feels that way, but that he went public about his annoyance.

Someone needs to email the article to Joe, but with a footnote detailing who he is, who he plays for, what his position is, what country he is eligible for, and some footage of him playing.

This post made my morning.


Declan Fitzpatrick has more Ireland caps than Cave. It's astonishing.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Faces not fitting is a fact.
It is an open secret Trimble is not liked by BOD and has suffered as a consequence.

How the fock did he get 50 caps then?  

Contrary to popular belief BOD does not pic the side.  
Fact is Trimble has always been an outsider in the Irish set up and the no13 not liking him has been a big part of that.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Notch wrote:
Jen, the idea that there is a similar gulf between Heaslip (a very average international number 8) and Wilson (a good club number 8 who is untested at test level) as there is between one of the greatest outside centres of all time and Darren Cave is pretty ridiculous.

Wilson is a good player and no more, Heaslip is a good player with potential to be better who has been coasting along and putting in performances for Ireland that rank well below other international 8s in the other NH nations for a while now. Is it really surprising that other players within Irish Rugby have picked up on that?

We will probably never agree on Heaslip. At least Leinster Ireland and Lions coaches agree with me. That'll do.  

One man's coasting is another man's playing a different type of game.

Heaslip is a very good player and the best 8 in Ireland BUT he could have been a great player and that is the frustration

kunu wrote:Don't mean to incite tempers here lads, but in my opinion he's a bit of a fool. Mentality is awful, I've been saying it here for about a year. Will always blame another man for mistakes, never himself. This article is proof, blaming Joe rather than his ability.

Case in point : Cave is at the receiving end of a rubbish pass, which he subsequently drops. I've seen him choose to give out to the passer, rather than chase the ensuing play. Petty, childish, and absolutely not what Schmidt is looking for.

For your one example I could point to about 100 where he has busted his balls to get back and make tackles and saved Ulsters ass. Not least against zebre last weekend! I agree with you that it's not the forum to talk about non selection but as i have said he has literally nothing to lose. I would wager he doesn't care.  As such at the very least we have an open and honest interview without cliches and nonsense. 

One thing is certain though, there is nothing and has been nothing wrong with his attitude and professionalism for ulster which is what you are indirectly calling into question.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Notch wrote:
Jen, the idea that there is a similar gulf between Heaslip (a very average international number 8) and Wilson (a good club number 8 who is untested at test level) as there is between one of the greatest outside centres of all time and Darren Cave is pretty ridiculous.

Wilson is a good player and no more, Heaslip is a good player with potential to be better who has been coasting along and putting in performances for Ireland that rank well below other international 8s in the other NH nations for a while now. Is it really surprising that other players within Irish Rugby have picked up on that?

We will probably never agree on Heaslip. At least Leinster Ireland and Lions coaches agree with me. That'll do.  

One man's coasting is another man's playing a different type of game.

Heaslip is a very good player and the best 8 in Ireland BUT he could have been a great player and that is the frustration

And 5 out of the last 6 Lions test caps are explained by? All the other 8s in the UK are muck too I suppose?

So what that doesn't make him as good as he could have been.

He has the skill set to reach the heights of Reid and Parisse - he hasn't achieve those heights

I have to agree I don't think the Heaslip point was articulated (or perhaps rather understood) well. I don't agree at any stage Wilson has been a better options. When Wilson was tearing up trees for Northampton should he have been given a few caps (in the interest of rotation like what Joe is starting now), then yes I agree. I think roger is probably the wrong side of 30 to pick up those caps now mind you and there are other options

geoff999rugby wrote:So what that doesn't make him as good as he could have been.

He has the skill set to reach the  heights of Reid and Parisse - he hasn't achieve those heights

Read is an absolutely exceptional player. And a year younger than Jamie. Parisse is a bit of a spoofer. V good but not in Read's league by miles.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Notch wrote:
Jen, the idea that there is a similar gulf between Heaslip (a very average international number 8) and Wilson (a good club number 8 who is untested at test level) as there is between one of the greatest outside centres of all time and Darren Cave is pretty ridiculous.

Wilson is a good player and no more, Heaslip is a good player with potential to be better who has been coasting along and putting in performances for Ireland that rank well below other international 8s in the other NH nations for a while now. Is it really surprising that other players within Irish Rugby have picked up on that?

We will probably never agree on Heaslip. At least Leinster Ireland and Lions coaches agree with me. That'll do.  

One man's coasting is another man's playing a different type of game.

He's the Paddy Wallace of number 8s at test level. He's not bad at his job, but he certainly never has a big impact on the majority of games he plays in. Certainly he's not an influential figure or a consistent performer.

I mean Parisse is a spoofer you say- what on earth does that make Heaslip!?

Standulstermen wrote:I have to agree I don't think the Heaslip point was articulated (or perhaps rather understood) well. I don't agree at any stage Wilson has been a better options. When Wilson was tearing up trees for Northampton should he have been given a few caps (in the interest of rotation like what Joe is starting now), then yes I agree. I think roger is probably the wrong side of 30 to pick up those caps now mind you and there are other options

Agreed. But you have to be REALLY exceptional (Tommy Bowe, Geordan Murphy, Jonny Sexton) to get capped when not playing in Ireland

Stand what other options do you see at 8?

SOB and POM don't play there and Coughlan is older than Wilson.
There is a marked lack of competition for Heaslip, as is also the case for Murray and until next year Kearney

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I have to agree I don't think the Heaslip point was articulated (or perhaps rather understood) well. I don't agree at any stage Wilson has been a better options. When Wilson was tearing up trees for Northampton should he have been given a few caps (in the interest of rotation like what Joe is starting now), then yes I agree. I think roger is probably the wrong side of 30 to pick up those caps now mind you and there are other options

Agreed. But you have to be REALLY exceptional (Tommy Bowe, Geordan Murphy, Jonny Sexton) to get capped when not playing in Ireland

I suspect that is a dam about to burst

Notch wrote:
He's the Paddy Wallace of number 8s at test level. He's not bad at his job, but he certainly never has an impact on the majority of games he plays in.

 

That's a cracker!

If I thought for one minute you believed it........

Was there not a specific Heaslip is brill/no he isn't thread on this forum that isn't even two weeks old?

Maybe discuss him on that?

Don Alfonso wrote:Was there not a specific Heaslip is brill/no he isn't thread on this forum that isn't even two weeks old?

Maybe discuss him on that?

It's all Cave's fault for his jokemanship.  

Paddy Wallace; a player who got a number of caps and did all the basics well, never let the team down but never was able to shine at test level.

Jamie Heaslip; after a promising first year, has been exactly the same. Paddy Wallace was decent for Ireland and never as bad as he's made out to be. Heaslip is decent enough for Ireland, never as good as he's made out to be. They have brought about the same amount to Ireland over the course of their test careers.

They are not to be criticised but neither can they be said to be key international performers.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I have to agree I don't think the Heaslip point was articulated (or perhaps rather understood) well. I don't agree at any stage Wilson has been a better options. When Wilson was tearing up trees for Northampton should he have been given a few caps (in the interest of rotation like what Joe is starting now), then yes I agree. I think roger is probably the wrong side of 30 to pick up those caps now mind you and there are other options

Agreed. But you have to be REALLY exceptional (Tommy Bowe, Geordan Murphy, Jonny Sexton) to get capped when not playing in Ireland

Jen in complete agreement but then ......... I mean I love Geordan.... But .... 

Geoff

This season I think O'Mahoney has looked excellent when at 8. O'Brien can also play 8. It's not that Wilson hasn't been good (he has been bloody good) but he has also been shifted about too. In the same way I think D'arcy should be taking a backseat I think a 30+ year old backup to a (sorry if I'm wrong Jamie) 30+ year old player isn't the succession planning we need right now. Not when there are other options

Notch wrote:Paddy Wallace; a player who got a number of caps and did all the basics well, never let the team down but never was able to shine at test level.

Jamie Heaslip; after a promising first year, has been exactly the same. Paddy Wallace was decent for Ireland and never as bad as he's made out to be. Heaslip is decent enough for Ireland, never as good as he's made out to be. They have brought about the same amount to Ireland over the course of their test careers.

They are not to be criticised but neither can they be said to be key international performers.

You little windey up fecker. You nearly had me there. You just overplayed it a bit or I might have bitten.

Standulstermen wrote:

kunu wrote:Don't mean to incite tempers here lads, but in my opinion he's a bit of a fool. Mentality is awful, I've been saying it here for about a year. Will always blame another man for mistakes, never himself. This article is proof, blaming Joe rather than his ability.

Case in point : Cave is at the receiving end of a rubbish pass, which he subsequently drops. I've seen him choose to give out to the passer, rather than chase the ensuing play. Petty, childish, and absolutely not what Schmidt is looking for.

For your one example I could point to about 100 where he has busted his balls to get back and make tackles and saved Ulsters ass. Not least against zebre last weekend! I agree with you that it's not the forum to talk about non selection but as i have said he has literally nothing to lose. I would wager he doesn't care.  As such at the very least we have an open and honest interview without cliches and nonsense. 

One thing is certain though, there is nothing and has been nothing wrong with his attitude and professionalism for ulster which is what you are indirectly calling into question.

If he had made the comments in the middle of Deccies term then I'd agree but it's strange timing to do it when the new coaching ticket has only had one international window to work with,I hope JS isn't the type to hold this against him.

.I can understand his frustration and I definitely think he's been underused but there is a caveat to that,he's a one position player and is in competition with the best player to ever play this game for Ireland.He isn't a bench option and many of the times when BoD has been injured Cave has been unfortunate enough to be struck down too.I hope he gets more recognition next year as when BoD is gone he still looks like the best option at 13 and he could be 1st choice for the World Cup.

I'm not joking. At all.

I think Heaslip is a talented player, I hope the arrival of Schmidt will coincide with him pulling his finger out and actually proving it.

Asls

I understand the point but maybe he had the same expectations of Schmidt as the rest of us. That's why he is so frustrated. He commented that he knows Schmidt and respects his knowledge which makes the non selection harder to take. He maybe feels that Henshaw learning more isn't doing him any favours so he is putting it out there that he isn't content to sit and wait while others learn etc etc.

All in all I don't think it's a big issue. If Schmidt rates him he wil pick him either way. 

Notch
I agree Heaslip hasnt been great for Ireland since about 2010 but I wouldn't compare him with paddy

"One thing is certain though, there is nothing and has been nothing wrong with his attitude and professionalism for ulster which is what you are indirectly calling into question.[/quote]If he had made the comments in the middle of Deccies term then I'd agree but it's strange timing to do it when the new coaching ticket has only had one international window to work with,I hope JS isn't the type to hold this against him."
[/i]

It did seem to me during the AI series, that Wilson, Trimble, and Cave were up and down the road to Dublin a fair bit - I think as injury cover - but then not involved in the match day squads.

I would certainly understand the frustration in this case - if they didn't feel they had much chance of involvement.

Anyhow - back to an earlier point - and Geoff has hinted at this too - I hope he isn't giving up and looking elsewhere. All 3 of these players are crucial to Ulster, whether need in the Ireland set-up or not.

Standulstermen wrote:Asls

I understand the point but maybe he had the same expectations of Schmidt as the rest of us. That's why he is so frustrated. He commented that he knows Schmidt and respects his knowledge which makes the non selection harder to take. He maybe feels that Henshaw learning more isn't doing him any favours so he is putting it out there that he isn't content to sit and wait while others learn etc etc.

All in all I don't think it's a big issue. If Schmidt rates him he wil pick him either way. 

Notch
I agree Heaslip hasnt been great for Ireland since about 2010 but I wouldn't compare him with paddy

Yeah the only part of what he said I have a problem with is the Heaslip thing,I think it's obvious that Wilson was behind both Leamy and Heaslip simply because they were better than him and even more importantly they played for an Irish team (right or wrong that ruled out Wilson from any discussion).

I think you're right and Schmidt will pick him if he rates him,I just think it's a risk he didn't need to take as after the 6N he will be in with a very good shout of getting caps in the big games.

2bFair wrote:"One thing is certain though, there is nothing and has been nothing wrong with his attitude and professionalism for ulster which is what you are indirectly calling into question.If he had made the comments in the middle of Deccies term then I'd agree but it's strange timing to do it when the new coaching ticket has only had one international window to work with,I hope JS isn't the type to hold this against him."
[/i]

It did seem to me during the AI series, that Wilson, Trimble, and Cave were up and down the road to Dublin a fair bit - I think as injury cover - but then not involved in the match day squads.

I would certainly understand the frustration in this case - if they didn't feel they had much chance of involvement.

Anyhow - back to an earlier point - and Geoff has hinted at this too - I hope he isn't giving up and looking elsewhere. All 3 of these players are crucial to Ulster, whether need in the Ireland set-up or not.

In fairness you can imagine how these three would be having a good old whinging session with each other if they shared lifts up and down the M1. All three have similar gripes.

I suspect that it is quite difficult in fairness getting the excitement of a call up, then getting there and realising you are surplus, probably feel left out (missing all the inside jokes from the week before), and then sent packing again whilst the rest continue their training.

How many times over the years would you be happy doing that with little reward, and not get a bit frustrated?

As I suggested Tuohy could have made that comment.
Trimble shares some of the frustration
Court and Wilson have given up on playing for Ireland in the future - one of the reason Court has left

The use of utility player bench options is a tricky one. Its entirely understandable, but its hard to swallow. Basically the second best in any position may not get the bench.

Just look at Sexton/Jackson/Madigan in the Autumn there.

Truth is, Schmidt might believe Cave to be the 2nd best 13 in the country. But Cave can't get a look at the squad because of the likes of McFadden, Earls, Fitz, Henshaw etc.. offering more as backups to BOD.

When BOD goes, Cave's chances will certainly not improve with Payne becoming qualified as both a 13 and 15 for Ireland.

Internationally speaking, if you want to be a single position player, its numero uno, or not at all.