Will a Scottish player start against Australia?

Not a wingey thread aimed at ruining the lions spirit, this is just a general question for lions supporters.

A week ago I was expecting to see Gray paired up with POC and Hogg on the bench. Yet somehow both have missed out, which I found very surprising to be honest. Now Lions have won a test match, only just, and with no help from Scottish players. Therefore...

Will a single Scottish player start against Australia? 

The key positions as far as Scotland's players are concerned are 1, 4, 14 and 15. All players in those positions seemed to hold their own today, except maybe cuthbert who I thought looked shakey at times. But he scored a try. 

I see no reason for AWJ to be dropped, nor corbisero nor halfpenny, especially as his kicking essentially sealed the win and is a huge advantage. I do think Maitland would be better to have start instead of cuthbert, but why should he start when cuthbert scored valuable points against Australia? Plus bowe is now an option on the wing.

If lions lose 2nd test, surely that will mean some changes, but probably nothing too drastic, depending on the nature of the loss. 

If lions win 2nd test, why would they want to alter a match wining team? Surely the 3/3 is the goal? Or would Gatland start Hogg or Gray knowing the series is in the bag?

Last Scottish player to start a test was Jason White in 2005, playing in all three tests vs all blacks. 

Is this tour simply an unfortunate one for Scottish fans because Gray, Grant, Hogg and Maitland can do more for the Lions being fit on the bench than starting in the test XV? 

Personally, I think Maitland or Gray are the only players who may start a test. grant won't feature. Hogg may never see the bench, but he'll be in a good position come next lions tour, as hp was this time round after SA tour of 2009.

bsando wrote:
Last Scottish player to start a test was Jason White in 2005, playing in all three tests vs all blacks. 

eh, no. That would be Julian White, English prop.

But to the question at hand, I hate to be a fence sitter, but I think it depends.

If Dingo goes round to Quades house with a cadburys milk tray and the two have an evening alone together and reconcile, I can see Cooper exposing us out wide, and us losing the second test, in which case changes will likely be made in the backs. If there are injuries to Corbs/Vunipola, any lock, or any back three player, I can see a Scot promoted to the bench.

On the other hand, if we win the 2nd test, we could see a few changes for the 3rd with the series in the bag. Im not advocating a disrespectful rotation, but a give a few guys a chance to write their names into the history books.

Its a difficult one for us though, because I dont want the lions to lose at all, but if it comes down to the wire, I cant see us playing any part.

If it's any consolation (which usually means it is not!) I don't think the Scots players out in Oz are any lesser than their non-Scots team mates. I think in those positions mentioned it's a bit of familiarity that has worked against the Scots. I think Grant can scrummage just as well if not better than Vunipola, Gray and AWJ are not a lot different on current tour form, Hogg maybe only loses out to 1/2p on goal kicking (and Hoggs is not too shabby either), Maitland is there or thereabouts already and could come in for Cuthbert who does looks shaky but does have a knack of scoring a lot of tries. Interestingly the 4 positions mentioned are ones where the coaches (Wales and England) are more familiar with the players - English props/scrum coach, welsh 2nd row/head coach, welsh wing/attack coach, welsh fullback/attack coach - so I think, like I mentioned, it is the familiarity with their own players that has gone against the scots boys.

I wouldn't have a problem seeing them all in the team at all, although I think Corbs is a better scrummager than Grant on Lions showing this far.

Imperial big Dave - haha, my bad, misread the old team line ups. I didn't watch any of the games that tour. So I guess the last scot to start must have been back in 2001 then? Or 1997? Agree with your thoughts, although I think JOC at ten is good, I'm not a huge fan of cooper.

Griff - I think you're right. Familiarity and a few other factors have made it tough for scots players. I am glad they're getting the experience and lots of warm up matches game time too, so it can only serve well for the future, even if none start a test. Corbs seems to have answered critics well and I thought he looked pretty good today, good choice by Gatland, one I thought was a bit odd as I thought Vunipola would start. Have to say the lions spirit looks strong between players and they're in a very good position now.

Tom Smith, 3rd test 2001 I think.

Still 2 Tests to go, and 2 weeks. Let's see what happens.

Think we'll see Maitland on the paddock on Tuesday to be honest, lining up with his 3 Scottish team mates in the starting 15.

This demonstrates that all 4 Scots were close, but no cigar. 

For what it's worth, I feel the Scots have been marginalised since the start of the tour and it's called a self-fulfilling prophecy. But this is the Lions, we're used to it. I have no real cause to complain until we get even close to winning silverware, somewhere, or at least gaining consistency in our world standings.

Would have liked to have seen Scott and Visser with them by this point, mind. Laidlaw might have been handy in the midweek games too - and actually covers 10.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Still 2 Tests to go, and 2 weeks. Let's see what happens.

Probably the most pertinent thing said here all day...in between all the rating lists and sweet souled Lions 'unity'

The only player that has stuck his hand up is Gray, there is nothing between all the second rows the problem is POC, he is selected whatever happens unless he is injured just like BOD in the backs. In fairness POC has exceeded my expectations I thought he may be clapped out with his injuries and age. I don't think Best has helped Gray and Evans but for me Gray looks ahead of Parling, when AWJ went off the Lions got stuffed in the scrum. Having an English forwards coach has tilted selection towards their players in the case of Grant and Gray. If the Lions win the next test places may be up for grabs.

B - I think that given how highly Rowntree clearly rates Geoff Parling, the answer to your question is 'no', barring a series of catastrophic injuries. That said, I think that any of the Scots players could make a meaningful contribution from the bench. I am actually surprised that Hogg (or 36) didn't make the bench as a utility back who can play in a number of positions and all kick pretty well.

I agree with glamorganalun that you could see which way the wind was blowing with the forwards. I have expected Grant to play better, to be honest, but then again he tends to enter the game with a new front row alongside him and often a new lock behind him, so it's more difficult to get settled. But that's the nature of the tour. You can't argue that Corbs doesn't deserve the 1 shirt on form now, though - he was great at the weekend.

Well all 4 Scots are involved on Tuesday (Hogg on the bench) so suggests they definitely won't be starting on Saturday!

I think there will be changes on Saturday because although we won we really didn't play well and something wasn't right in the setup.  Not that I think any of the change will be Scots...

I actually think our best chance is the 3rd test, and even more likely if we win the series next week.  There will surely be some injuries and I don't think Gatland could be accused of tokenism if he gives players who have had strong tours (Gray, SOB, Tupiric etc) the chance of a test game.

I hope that if we're 2-0 to the good and have the series already in the bag, then Gatland will at least give some other of this squad members the chance of a test cap. Because who gives a feic at that stage? People only remember whether it was a series win or not, not whether it was a clean sweep.

Look at how many unfortunate injuries Australia got in one position last match. We have 30-whatever people plus call ups in the team because these things can EASILY happen. Remember South Africa? Let's see what happens. Anyone could still be the hero for either side

With injury concerns to POC that might give Gray his chance?

Yes, Gray should start and possibly Grant. Vunipola was terrible coming off the bench which pretty much undone all his good work earlier in the tour.

If O'Connoll is injured you'd like to think Gray stands a chance, at the very least on the bench

I'd be flabbergasted if he's not selected in that circumstance and is the only lock left out of the 23...

The reality is that scotland are an unhealthy nation and it is therefore no surprise that they very rarely produce international class sportsmen.

They are all indoors saving themselves from the cold eating fried marsbars and playing computer games.

Until there is government intervention, scotland will continue to be the sick man of world sport.

Good point. I'm especially disgusted with terrible physical specimens like Chris Hoy or Andy Murray or Katherine Grainger. A Disgrace to their country

Scrumdown wrote:The reality is that scotland are an unhealthy nation and it is therefore no surprise that they very rarely produce international class sportsmen.

They are all indoors saving themselves from the cold eating fried marsbars and playing computer games.

Until there is government intervention, scotland will continue to be the sick man of world sport.

E-. Must try harder.

Scrumdown wrote:The reality is that scotland are an unhealthy nation and it is therefore no surprise that they very rarely produce international class sportsmen.

They are all indoors saving themselves from the cold eating fried marsbars and playing computer games.

Until there is government intervention, scotland will continue to be the sick man of world sport.

I completely object to that.

It should be "Scotland is an unhealthy nation".

Someone brought this up a while ago (you again scrum down?) And it led to mass arguments and wumming - can we just ignore it this time please?

Maybe Grant in for Corbisiero...?

Grant was accused of a bad game vs Brumbies but I thought he was good while Best and Stevens were dire. Not quite sure what has happened to Best recently...?

I would bring Gray in if POC is out. They both have similar qualities, great work with ball in hand, always challenging the opposition.

In my view Gray and Grant should start the second Test if POC and Corbs are out. In the second row Parling doesn't offer enough in the set piece, Evans isn't Lions class. Mato can't scrum.

If the Lions select Mako and Parling, as Rowntree may well do then we will lose the Test at the scrums.

justified sinner wrote:In my view Gray and Grant should start the second Test if POC and Corbs are out. In the second row Parling doesn't offer enough in the set piece, Evans isn't Lions class. Mato can't scrum.

If the Lions select Mako and Parling, as Rowntree may well do then we will lose the Test at the scrums.

Mako and Parling certainly didnt have the impact we hoped.

justified sinner wrote:In my view Gray and Grant should start the second Test if POC and Corbs are out. In the second row Parling doesn't offer enough in the set piece, Evans isn't Lions class. Mato can't scrum.

If the Lions select Mako and Parling, as Rowntree may well do then we will lose the Test at the scrums.

What you meant to say was 'Evans isn't scottish'.

So glad this thread has not created mass wums (with the exception of one post) I was worried it would. Some nice discussion going on!

I agree with you Glamorganalun about the locks. I don't think they really even need to bother with cover for POC as all of them are brilliant players who could all start. I would like to believe that Gray will start a test, mainly because he was on so many team sheets pre lions tour and has performed well on tour in warm up games. He could have done better though and maybe need to be a little bit more selfish when he gets the ball and try and break the first tackle a bit better. But he is a safe pair of hands, very rarely does he get turned over and his strength really helps him present the ball quickly when tackled. 

I think RDW is right in the way the lions team was set up last week. It didn't seem right, looked a bit sketchy and vulnerable. But they won. Although, I think Australia gifted the win thanks to injuries, kicker going off immediately and some shocking misses at goal. I hope Beale and JOC have been practicing their kicks because it was dismal. 

I do think Maitland should feature in a test. He could really get the lions backline working a bit more I feel, combined with north on the left wing, that could be a real threat. Their combined try in warm up game was pretty spectacular and I feel they're a good balance. Apart from a really well worked try, thanks partly to a cheeky Gatland styled block on JOC, the rest were essentially gifted to lions by the wallabies, or should I say, Barnes awful kicking. I expect that next test will be much tougher for the lions so some changes should be necessary. Although as RDW points out, all four scots are featuring today vs rebels, I feel Hogg may have a shot of being on the bench.