England v New Zealand, 3rd ODI, Trent Bridge

First topic message reminder :

Last ODI of the series, and the last ODI for both these teams before the Champions Trophy. Led by Guptill, New Zealand have an unassailable 2 nil lead in the series and this is just a dead rubber. England have made 4 changes - Broad and Finn are back from injury, whilst Tredwell and Bopara ( ) are also in. Dernbach, Woakes, Anderson and Swann are the outgoing names. For New Zealand, Southee comes back from injury and replaces Bracewell, while Munro is in for Elliot.

England 1 Alastair Cook, 2 Ian Bell, 3 Jonathan Trott, 4 Joe Root, 5 Eoin Morgan, 6 Ravi Bopara, 7 Jos Buttler (wk), 8 Tim Bresnan, 9 Stuart Broad, 10 James Tredwell, 11 Steven Finn.
New Zealand 1 Luke Ronchi, 2 Martin Guptill, 3 Kane Williamson, 4 Ross Taylor, 5 Colin Munro, 6 Brendon McCullum, 7 James Franklin, 8 Nathan McCullum, 9 Tim Southee, 10 Kyle Mills, 11 Mitchell McClenaghan.

New Zealand have won the toss and will field.

Still far ahead on runs Marcus and with so much batting in there. They can't lose surely.

Ooo these two will go after root here, with these two in they still look in control.

Big muc mucks up. Taylor still there.

Game over. Well played Englishland.

Great stuff. Who'd have expected us to win even without Buttler's innings? Just goes to show what a decent bowling attack can do. Dernbach should never get near this team again.

What!!!

I turned over to watch the 21's/

!!

Marcus wrote:Game over. Well played Englishland.

It isn't , Taylor is still there and they only need 160.


Interesting though because we're seeing NZ play under some scoreboard pressure and good bowling at last. Exactly what I am sure they would have wanted.

Bet they are glad the guppy got them off to a flyer. Still edging England on runs.

NZ easing along with tons of singles. They still have the edge here to just tickle along and then go big. Can't see them losing really with England's performances of late.

I am going to take you seriously trebbs(for once)

6 wickets down NZ have a 1 in 10 shot

Root getting routed. NZ picking up the scoring as they ease to this win.

mystiroakey wrote:I am going to take you seriously trebbs(for once)

6 wickets down NZ have a 1 in 10 shot

These two look well set , they seriously do. And after them you have Southee and his 6 happy bat.

One of Anderson or Swann was needed here. Lack of bowlers has given them a big edge.

Remember .. Double the 30 over score. that's a win for them.

You still think that as they take sixes and fours off root and start to hammer us.

6 wickets down is a head mash.. Its not a free position to play shots

But they are roakey and big.

This performance makes you wonder if we should go into the tournament with a 4 bowler attack of Broad, Anderson, Finn and Swann, and lot Bopara/Root fill in the other 10 or so overs rather than a 5 man attack

Maybe but this run a ball partnership are cruising. You need someone who can break it.

The other muc gone now.

Bres has been tidy and with more backup it must help.

7 down but Taylor still there.

Southee time?

Ian smith is pleased he is in ready to fire his bombs in the pp. and he starts with a four. He could win this in the power plays, he only plays one way and this is made for him. He has ripped into Finn when he gets it too short. Lots if thump and fours.

And as I say that Southee tries again and hit himself out. Clever, fuller.

Still a couple more pp overs for them to hit out, will Taylor be looking to open up late as England did? He has to do it alone unless Mills gets in the groove.

NZ are 41 runs ahead at this stage.. they have made a bigger gap since that start.

Taylor out. Mills and him hitting out to win it.

We actually gonna win this one - 'cor blimey 'guvnor!

duty they are hitting 6's! they could have this. Mills is winning it. Just 39 off 30, was 51 not long ago. nz can't fail.

Now I must admit I don't like Bopara's batting, but his bowling can be handy

Stick Bopara at 11, his ODI bowling is weirdly good. And Trebbs, just relax.

nearly out so he holes straight out next ball.

good win in the end.

amazing what bowlers do for you.

well done England. well done nz on the series and getting rid of Dernbache for good.

And England win! Happy day. A fearsome winning run built up before the Champions Trophy!

Now the selectors have an issue. Do they go with a batter who can bowl pretty decent like Bopara at 6, with Buttler at 7 and Broad/Swann/Finn/Anderson as the 4 bowlers with Root/Bopara making up overs.

Or do they go Buttler at 6, Bresnan at 7, with Broad/Swann/Finn/Anderson.

I personally would go with the top one. I'd back Broad/Finn/Swann/Anderson to bowl well enough, and I think we could do with the extra batting tbh

Duty281 wrote:And England win! Happy day. A fearsome winning run built up before the Champions Trophy!

haha. we wish.

but it brings hope and gives us better ideas.. bowling has to be Finn, Swann, Anderson and Broad but the other ten overs?

Bops can bowl tidily. Hmm. But then you give root a couple of overs too? costly?

Fairly comfortable for England then who controlled the NZ run chase for all but the 1st 10 overs. Those 10 overs did mean New Zealand remained in the match until the end...

Obviously today showed the value of having bowlers performing better than in the previous games. Whilst some of the criticism of Dernbach has been OTT, it's hard to see how he fits into England's best XI, given Finn and Anderson will surely share the new ball - unless on a flat pitch and England think his variations are more useful than Bresnan (who can be a bit hittable at times).

England do have an issue with the balance of the side. Buttler looks happier when he can play with total freedom, which he won't do all that often from 6. Bopara's bowling is handy, but his batting fairly hopeless really. Root is handy for a few overs here and there, but I'm not sure you want him bowling 5 or more on a regular basis. On the whole I'd be tempted to play the 5 genuine bowlers, but then the top 4 really need to get England to the last 10 or 15 overs, which will mean Cook and Trott have to drop anchor even more.

For New Zealand today showed their limitations. Namely that Southee is a good bowler but has his off-days, McClenaghan is good, but the rest are average and rely on pressure and errors from the batsmen. With the bat, Taylor, Guptil and McCullum are their only international class batsmen (Ronchi could become one I guess). I think it was guildford who said that for New Zealand's gameplan to work they need the opposition to have an off-day. England didn't have that today, although they were probably only at 80% or so.

Looking forward to the Champions Trophy - I couldn't possibly call it.

These are the two potential sides in my mind

Cook
Bell
Trott
Root
Morgan
Bopara
Buttler
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Finn

That'd be my lineup personally. Bopara/Root to fill in with 10 overs, plus it strengthens the batting

The other line up would be;

Cook
Bell
Trott
Root
Morgan
Buttler
Bresnan
Broad
Swann
Finn
Anderson

Now obviously that bowling there is much stronger, however the batting is a lot weaker. I don't think that's the way to go, as the top order pretty much has to perform everytime to set up Morgan/Buttler. You could end up with Morgan/Buttler in too early, and expose Bresnan/Broad/Swann.

What do you guys think?

I'd go with Option 2.

I think the bowling is noticeably stronger in the 2nd side. Whilst Bopara and Root are decent, I wouldn't be comfortable with them bowling 10 overs consistently, particularly with the new fielding restrictions. England got away with Bopara today a bit because New Zealand had lost so many wickets already.

Having Bopara in the batting line-up is essentially picking him in case things go wrong. I'm not a fan of that reasoning. If the top 4 do their job, you don't need Bopara the batsman. Having said that once Pietersen returns (probably for Bell) the top 4 looks more threatening, but not necessarily as reliable...

It's a tough call, and there are good arguments each way. I think the more positive move is to go with 5 genuine bowlers, but I wouldn't mind either way.

Bres over Bop

Root in at 3.Trot in at 4. Cant stand Cook,Bell and Trott top 3.. It doesnt make sense in Test let alone ODI's

Least we get some confidence going into the tournament!

Like i say i would keep this team, but with Swann instead of Treadwell.

mystiroakey wrote:Bres over Bop

Root in at 3.Trot in at 4. Cant stand Cook,Bell and Trott top 3.. It doesnt make sense in Test let alone ODI's

Presumably Pietersen will split the top 3. Having said that, Trott at 3 is central to England's gameplan; Trott at 4 with Root at 3 makes very little sense.

Its all about RR, bell and trott stagnate innings if they stay in

Bell and Trott did exactly what they are I the team to do in the last 2 ODis (Bell should have went on though but another soft dismissal...) today Bell had able support from Morgan and Buttler, on Sunday Trott had no one.

England have a gameplan - slow and steady at the beginning. Fireworks at the end with wickets in hand. In fact, it seems most teams are working it this way nowadays.

Edit: as for team selection, I'd stick with 5 bowlers. Bopara is a wreck with the bat in an England shirt. So much so that he's a hindrance. I'd also consider 2 spinners as Tredwell has been excellent whenever called upon.

Liver- thats old school. 50 over cricket is turning in to t20 more and more.. England havent won a thing in 50 over stuff and we never hit the right score due to trott and bell..

The bowlers sometimes get them out of jail - but thats all

mystiroakey wrote:Its all about RR, bell and trott stagnate innings if they stay in

But they don't.

They always end up around a strike rate of 80, and if they go onto to get 100's more often than not they score at a run a ball.

you got stats for that?

btw just go back to the last world cup.. i was pulling my hair out every game because of them two having no idea about what to score..

mystiroakey wrote:you got stats for that?

Trott's stats in ODI's - 57 innings, 2562 runs, average of 52.28, strike rate of 76.14 - http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/player/47623.html
Bell's stats in ODI's - 126 innings, 4274 runs, average of 37.15 strike rate of 74.87 - http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/player/9062.html

Trott's stats are unbelievable. Bell's are good, hampered by his earlier career where he floated around the order, but they're still goddamn good ODI stats.

Sorry that's not the stats i was asking for mate.

I know them allright!

mystiroakey wrote:Liver- thats old school. 50 over cricket is turning in to t20 more and more.. England havent won a thing in 50 over stuff and we never hit the right score due to trott and bell..

The bowlers sometimes get them out of jail - but thats all

It's old school yeah, but because of the new regulations it's making a comeback. Pinch hitters at the top of the order are disappearing. Innings builders are what's required now with big hitters at 5 downwards. The last 10 overs are where the scoring seems to be done.

England tried this tactic for years under Fletcher/Vaughan but it wasn't suitable at the time with the regulations and therefore failed miserably.

I honestly don't understand why you want Trott out the side. Baffles me

Watson -Sr 88 ave 42

Kp 88 ave 42

dhoni SR 88 ave 52

AB devilliers SR 94 ave 50

Farhaan Behardien sr 89 ave 34

Faf du Plessis sr 94 ave 31


cook 78 - 40...

The only thing Trott and bell do most of the time is waste deliveries

The fact Trott has his average has probally cost us more wins than losses!!!

6 fingered tractor boy wrote:I honestly don't understand why you want Trott out the side. Baffles me

Well you are only baffling yourself because i didn't say that.

Night olly its bed time

mystiroakey wrote:

6 fingered tractor boy wrote:I honestly don't understand why you want Trott out the side. Baffles me

Well you are only baffling yourself because i didn't say that.

Night olly its bed time

Haha just read back and you didn't say it

mystiroakey wrote:Watson -Sr 88 ave 42

Kp 88 ave 42

dhoni SR 88 ave 52

AB devilliers SR 94 ave 50

Farhaan Behardien sr 89 ave 34

Faf du Plessis sr 94 ave 31


cook 78 - 40...

The only thing Trott and bell do most of the time is waste deliveries

The fact Trott has his average has probally cost us more wins than losses!!!

So only Dhoni has a higher average than Trott? I don't really see your point here Mysti. Trott got to 2,500 runs in his 59th innings, the same as Sir Viv did

Sky Sports Cricket ‏@SkyCricket
Trott passes 2,500 ODI runs in his 59th innings - the same number it took Sir Viv to get there. #trotton

Trott scores runs. Consistently. The aim of the game really

right before i go to sleep..

Its not just about the average in ODI's- especially if you are england that rarely get bolwed out and have batters before and after in the order that have higher RR's.

bell and trott average taking approx 120 balls out of the 300 england face in odis!!!! that is not to far off half off them.. England probally only average 6 wickets down(i will work that out as well). Cook out scores them(rr and so do the players after..).

I will compile a statistical anaylsis of the problem with trott and bell later this week. However the one major problem I have is when they play together- That may not be able to be proven conclusively but the stats wont be good for them

On Bell he's a weird one. Sometimes he'll go really well, and others not so. If KP was fit, he'd be the one I drop I'll say.

Trott would go nowhere from 3. He's the pillar of this batting line-up

I agree on Trott. He's a spine of stability around which the others can bat and hit out later in an innings.

Gee it's a good thing I went to bed earlier last night, because I might have blown something at the rubbish mysti is writing.

Comparing Trott and Bell to KP, Watson and then 4 lower middle-order players as if that proves anything is bizarre to say the least. Crucially KP and Watson's averages are still high enough that they bat genuine innings, so allow the lower middle-order players to express themselves at the end.

Perhaps England's gameplan has at last caught up with the world, or the world has caught up with England's gameplan, but because of the change in regulations almost all the teams nowadays base their innings around a solid base and then exploding in the last few overs.

To say "50 over cricket is turning in to t20 more and more" shows that you haven't watched (or understood) recent 50 over cricket - it is all about getting to the stage where you can play the end of an innings as you would the end of a T20 (where 12 per over is now par for the course) and the only way of doing this is keeping wickets in hand. Such a view is not so much old school as "retro" in the sense that it is now what works. We saw yesterday what happens when a side chooses to chase by going hard at the start of an innings...

England have built their recent success in ODI cricket on someone from the top 4 (usually top 3 even) batting through the innings at a decent rate, and getting to 30-35 overs with 7 or 8 wickets still in tact. This has been relatively successful and apart from the last couple of series their one-day record is good. Having Trott in the top 3 is a key part of this success because he is so reliable and so regular that the others know what he's going to do so can play around him.

Moving Root up to 3 ignores that yesterday his SR was actually the lesser of all the top order (discounting Cook)...

"To say "50 over cricket is turning in to t20 more and more" shows that you haven't watched (or understood) recent 50 over cricket "

get over yourself Mike.. I watch it and understand it..

I will produce my analysis soon. Be sure to read it and think!!

now off you Trott