Lions pick worst performing test coach for Australia tour in 2013

First topic message reminder :

The British & Irish Lions somehow ended up having to pick Warren Gatland as head coach for the tour to Australia next year.

Gatland has had two periods as international test coach - once with Ireland from 1998-2001 and currently with Wales, though he hasnt given that one up just yet.

At test level, you can point to his 2 grand slams. One more than Declan Kidney, which isn't saying much.
But it's his record against SH opposition since Dec 2007 with Wales that bears much greater scrutiny. Against SANZAR teams, he has coached 19, and won once. And it's not for want of trying. Gatland arranged test after test against the supposed weakest of the SH teams and came up short every time, bar a 3 point win at home in his first Austrlaian test in November 2008. Since then, it's been 7 duds on the trot. He's had SA 6 times and NZ 5 times and come up with zip.

This is the guy who's supposed to get the best out of four countries next year against southern opposition, when he can't even manage to get it out of one over the last four years.

I assume PSW was referring to the other very strong candidates at 7 -Warbs, Robshaw, Rennie and SOB all have their strengths, as do Wood, Armitage, Tipuric, POM and Barclay and probably others I don't know as well. At 6, Ferris, SOB, Brown, Denton, Lydiate, Jones, Shingler, Robshaw, Croft, Haskell and others all have their strengths too. NONE of them are complete players, no matter what anyone here tries to claim. There is little to separate any of them objectively and cases can be made for them all, so form closer to the time and the gameplan chosen will be the factors deciding our backrow (or should be). Any discussion involving the backrow on this forum will be so subject to club and national bias and so subjective to what you are looking for as an individual that we may as well not bother in that area!

Knowsit17 wrote:Is Robshaw's captaincy of England guaranteed once Tom Wood re-enters the fold? I was under the impression Wood was being touted as skipper prior to getting injured. He also posed with the other skippers pre-Six Nations

And then Robshaw also faces the threat of Hartley, who many England fans assure me is Lions skipper material despite his glaring disciplinary record

Depends if Wood can take the 7 shirt from him first. Pick starters then pick captain, not vice versa

Rennie needs to learn how to pass the ball, it seems like he has never learned that basic skill...

All of Englands first 15 would be very good players and real contenders for the Lions tour. On the other hand there are no real dead cert English players as there may have been in previous years. Part of this though is because Englands highest profile players play in positions of particular strength in NH teams.

Foden for example has to contend with Kearney, Halfpenny and Hogg. Three players who are at the top of their game etc.

Robshaw, England captain must contend with Heaslip, Faleteau and Denton. Heaslip may not be in the form of his life but he was a shining light on the last Lions tour and is very useful even when off form. The other two are also real contenders.

https://www.606v2.com/t34537-impartiality-in-the-lions

I'm kind of trying to create an impartial Lions team in this thread by preventing people from selecting players from their own nationality.

Interesting comments and teams thusfar.

As for Rennie's passing he butchered one chance against England, but I can't really think of any other time he has made that kind of mistake.

Against Munster?

GunsGerms wrote:All of Englands first 15 would be very good players and real contenders for the Lions tour. On the other hand there are no real dead cert English players as there may have been in previous years. Part of this though is because Englands highest profile players play in positions of particular strength in NH teams.

Foden for example has to contend with Kearney, Halfpenny and Hogg. Three players who are at the top of their game etc.

Robshaw, England captain must contend with Heaslip, Faleteau and Denton. Heaslip may not be in the form of his life but he was a shining light on the last Lions tour and is very useful even when off form. The other two are also real contenders.

Whilst Robshaw can play 8, it's not his best position and he's not played there for England yet.

gowales wrote:Against Munster?

Wasn't that McInally? If you are on about the game at the weekend?

That was Rennie, a two on one with Laidlaw on his inside and he kicked it

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:All of Englands first 15 would be very good players and real contenders for the Lions tour. On the other hand there are no real dead cert English players as there may have been in previous years. Part of this though is because Englands highest profile players play in positions of particular strength in NH teams.

Foden for example has to contend with Kearney, Halfpenny and Hogg. Three players who are at the top of their game etc.

Robshaw, England captain must contend with Heaslip, Faleteau and Denton. Heaslip may not be in the form of his life but he was a shining light on the last Lions tour and is very useful even when off form. The other two are also real contenders.

Whilst Robshaw can play 8, it's not his best position and he's not played there for England yet.

Whats his best position? 6?

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:All of Englands first 15 would be very good players and real contenders for the Lions tour. On the other hand there are no real dead cert English players as there may have been in previous years. Part of this though is because Englands highest profile players play in positions of particular strength in NH teams.

Foden for example has to contend with Kearney, Halfpenny and Hogg. Three players who are at the top of their game etc.

Robshaw, England captain must contend with Heaslip, Faleteau and Denton. Heaslip may not be in the form of his life but he was a shining light on the last Lions tour and is very useful even when off form. The other two are also real contenders.

Whilst Robshaw can play 8, it's not his best position and he's not played there for England yet.

Whats his best position? 6?

There is argument over whether it is 6 or 7. I would have said 6 before but he is cementing his spot as a 7 at Club and country level at the moment. He'd really thrive in an L-R combo, IMO. At Quins, Fa'asalavu is an INternational 7 too, so they share duties in the first choice backrow, but Robshaw is really the 7 at the moment. If Wallace plays, he moves to 6, he only covers 8 if we are missing Guest and Easter, like this time last year

How about a coaching party of :

Gatland - Head Coach

Ashton - Backs Cocah

Rowntree - Forwards Coach

Edwards - Defence Coach

That's a good shout. I don't think Ashton really had the goods or the steel to be an international head coach, especially at his age. By all accounts though he is a very good attack coach. It would be good to have a Briton as well

Robshaw would probably be lucky to start at 6 ahead of Ferris (if fit) or Dan Lydiate who had a great six nations. At 7 I think Warburton should be a nailed on starter. SOB also plays 7 but its not his best position. Some very good NH backrow players. Someone will miss out.

What are your thoughts on Robshaw's chances?

Have always liked Ashton and think the RFU treated him pretty shabbily but he has always had good reviews as an attack coach

GunsGerms wrote:Robshaw would probably be lucky to start at 6 ahead of Ferris (if fit) or Dan Lydiate who had a great six nations. At 7 I think Warburton should be a nailed on starter. SOB also plays 7 but its not his best position. Some very good NH backrow players. Someone will miss out.

What are your thoughts on Robshaw's chances?

Could possibly tour, very unlikely to start. Could lead the midweekers, I suppose. Too much rugby to play yet. He had a very good end of the year and is the best linkman at 7 there. I think Rennie is just as likely to start as Warbs at this point but the players will make their own cases in the HEC and the 6N

gowales wrote:That's a good shout. I don't think Ashton really had the goods or the steel to be an international head coach, especially at his age. By all accounts though he is a very good attack coach. It would be good to have a Briton as well

Id rather have Eddie OSullivan or Joe Schmidt as backs coach. I guess that is beacuse Ashton's tenure with Ireland wasnt particularly sucessful.

Best thing about the backrow depth is the midweekers will have a beastly backrow!

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:All of Englands first 15 would be very good players and real contenders for the Lions tour. On the other hand there are no real dead cert English players as there may have been in previous years. Part of this though is because Englands highest profile players play in positions of particular strength in NH teams.

Foden for example has to contend with Kearney, Halfpenny and Hogg. Three players who are at the top of their game etc.

Robshaw, England captain must contend with Heaslip, Faleteau and Denton. Heaslip may not be in the form of his life but he was a shining light on the last Lions tour and is very useful even when off form. The other two are also real contenders.

Whilst Robshaw can play 8, it's not his best position and he's not played there for England yet.

Whats his best position? 6?

There is argument over whether it is 6 or 7. I would have said 6 before but he is cementing his spot as a 7 at Club and country level at the moment. He'd really thrive in an L-R combo, IMO. At Quins, Fa'asalavu is an INternational 7 too, so they share duties in the first choice backrow, but Robshaw is really the 7 at the moment. If Wallace plays, he moves to 6, he only covers 8 if we are missing Guest and Easter, like this time last year

His performance at 7 in the first test v SA was absolutely top drawer.....

When is the Lions Squad named?

What happens if say England (who in pretty much every 606ers listing have barely any players) were to do the grand slam?

With so many top class players in contention for the back 5 I really think versatility will play a big part in who gets selected.

Whilst I hope the players on form (whatever Nationality) are picked there will obviously have to be some tough calls, so for argument sakes lets say there is a choice between Morgan and Faletau for a back row slot.

Morgan for me is an out and out No8 where as Faletau is a different type but as good a No8 who can also play 6 and 7, so I would guess Faletau would get the nod.

Likewise Charteris is an out and out 2nd row IMO where as someone like Croft can move upto 2nd row from back row so he mught get nod.

bedfordwelsh wrote:With so many top class players in contention for the back 5 I really think versatility will play a big part in who gets selected.

Whilst I hope the players on form (whatever Nationality) are picked there will obviously have to be some tough calls, so for argument sakes lets say there is a choice between Morgan and Faletau for a back row slot.

Morgan for me is an out and out No8 where as Faletau is a different type but as good a No8 who can also play 6 and 7, so I would guess Faletau would get the nod.

Likewise Charteris is an out and out 2nd row IMO where as someone like Croft can move upto 2nd row from back row so he mught get nod.

Is that a good idea though? Too much utility over specialisation can backfire

Chequered,

Yeah I agree and on the whole I think (and hope) that specialist players in whatever position will get the nod but there is a huge amount of class backrowers about.

So if its a close call maybe the ability (Faletau over Morgan for example) to play in additional positions might get them the nod.

End of the day Robshaws only got his chance in the first place because of injury to Wood, Haskells unavailability and the lack of a proper 7. Although hes performed OK in the few tests hes had lets not kid ourselves hes suddenly Richie Mccaw and Chuck Norriss' offspring.
theres at least 3 6's and 3 7's you could make a good case for being picked ahead of him ( you could flip that around for Warburton too who many see as only the second best option Wales have at 7, and his world cup woopsie should rule him out as captain). With BOD (although I expect he will get picked if hes fit) theres 2 welsh and Tuilagi you could make a case for ahead of him, whereas Ford ...what competition does he actually have for his place? Best???

bedfordwelsh wrote:With so many top class players in contention for the back 5 I really think versatility will play a big part in who gets selected.

Whilst I hope the players on form (whatever Nationality) are picked there will obviously have to be some tough calls, so for argument sakes lets say there is a choice between Morgan and Faletau for a back row slot.

Morgan for me is an out and out No8 where as Faletau is a different type but as good a No8 who can also play 6 and 7, so I would guess Faletau would get the nod.

Likewise Charteris is an out and out 2nd row IMO where as someone like Croft can move upto 2nd row from back row so he mught get nod.

I for one wouldnt be happy with Croft at SR for England let alone the lions...some say he's too lightweight for 6...can you imagine him at 4 or 5...

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:End of the day Robshaws only got his chance in the first place because of injury to Wood, Haskells unavailability and the lack of a proper 7. Although hes performed OK in the few tests hes had lets not kid ourselves hes suddenly Richie Mccaw and Chuck Norriss' offspring.
theres at least 3 6's and 3 7's you could make a good case for being picked ahead of him ( you could flip that around for Warburton too who many see as only the second best option Wales have at 7, and his world cup woopsie should rule him out as captain). With BOD (although I expect he will get picked if hes fit) theres 2 welsh and Tuilagi you could make a case for ahead of him, whereas Ford ...what competition does he actually have for his place? Best???

And Hartley and Rees and any young guns that might be picked. This is why these discussions are flawed. And Robshaw did better than OK in his few tests, one game's defence excepted (but he still beat SA off the park in the breakdown). Every tends to get their chance at first when another more senior player is injured or out of form. You are not really making a point

His point is Wood and Haskell are not Robshaws seniors, they are better players unavailable at present IMO.

That's a matter of opinion. We shall see what Lancaster decides to do (well, with Wood, he dropped Haskell to the A side which was odd, IMO) now that those options should be back. Wood is good but I think his reputation, like so many, has been improved by his absence if anything!

They might have been better at a time...but Robshaw has improved no end...whos to say they are still bettert players now...

This season up to the AI's will tell us a huge amount...

Wood and Haskell (and potentially a fit and conditioned (Fearns) make even englands back row decision an interesting one.

I actually think Robshaws abilities have stagnated a bit. For a long time he was ignored as the best backrower in England, when he finally got that shirt he tried too hard maybe, but doesn't seem to have progressed in his game.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I actually think Robshaws abilities have stagnated a bit. For a long time he was ignored as the best backrower in England, when he finally got that shirt he tried too hard maybe, but doesn't seem to have progressed in his game.

I'm really sorry, but have you watched any England tests since he got the captaincy or Quins play any rugby at the end of last season? You don't think he has progressed his game?

No I think he has been top notch in the prem for a long time, certainly justfied his inclusion in the England set up over and over.

When he stepped up he really struggled to adjust to int rugby, and now he has adjusted and is now raising his game to where it's been for many seasons it doesn't mean he's progressed!!!

He hasn't quite got that world class feel about him that he has promised in the prem, and I am sad to say it but I think he's keeping Woods place warm.

thebluesmancometh wrote:No I think he has been top notch in the prem for a long time, certainly justfied his inclusion in the England set up over and over.

When he stepped up he really struggled to adjust to int rugby, and now he has adjusted and is now raising his game to where it's been for many seasons it doesn't mean he's progressed!!!

He hasn't quite got that world class feel about him that he has promised in the prem, and I am sad to say it but I think he's keeping Woods place warm.

Did you watch the tests in South Africa?

Yep, through my fingers unfortunately!

First test he was good, but then what breakdown nous did SA have on the pitch? They go for brute force and attempt to wipe the breakdown out completely, that can make opposing floor men look good.

From the SA tests I learnt 2 things, England were inferior, and Tuilagi does have some talent.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Yep, through my fingers unfortunately!

First test he was good, but then what breakdown nous did SA have on the pitch? They go for brute force and attempt to wipe the breakdown out completely, that can make opposing floor men look good.

From the SA tests I learnt 2 things, England were inferior, and Tuilagi does have some talent.

Fair enough, if that was your impression. It's fair to say SA hardly had wiles at the breakdown. We'll see how he does against NZ and Australia shortly if he isn't replaced

And i'll be the first to give him credit if he steps up!!!

It sounds a little silly but he is relatively inexperienced at int level and is still finding his feet a touch, lets hope he progresses because I think V Aus we'll need a bulkier back row with breakdown nous, Warbs seems to lightweight to play a destructive breakdown game!

Pot Hale wrote:The British & Irish Lions somehow ended up having to pick Warren Gatland as head coach for the tour to Australia next year.

Gatland has had two periods as international test coach - once with Ireland from 1998-2001 and currently with Wales, though he hasnt given that one up just yet.

At test level, you can point to his 2 grand slams. One more than Declan Kidney, which isn't saying much.
But it's his record against SH opposition since Dec 2007 with Wales that bears much greater scrutiny. Against SANZAR teams, he has coached 19, and won once. And it's not for want of trying. Gatland arranged test after test against the supposed weakest of the SH teams and came up short every time, bar a 3 point win at home in his first Austrlaian test in November 2008. Since then, it's been 7 duds on the trot. He's had SA 6 times and NZ 5 times and come up with zip.

This is the guy who's supposed to get the best out of four countries next year against southern opposition, when he can't even manage to get it out of one over the last four years.

Good to see you getting behind the Lions coach an discarding anti Welsh sentiment.

Pathetic.

I would say that trying to pick a Lions squad for next year so early in the season is just wish full thinking that any player that any one suggest will be ( fit enough, or good enough)....on FORM at the time that the players are picked.

Lets atleast wait unill the Ais are out of the way bedfore mentioning any player being nailed on.

And to try and pick a Captain at this point is Stupid imo.

Who ever is picked for the Lions, I for (1) hope that they are the best players in their position, and they are not their because they come from Wales just because (Gatland) happens to be head coach of Wales.

The best players, that are one form and top of their game. and we might have a chance. Irespective of what country they come from.

I don't think Gtaland will make the same mistake Henry did picking players from Wales although no doubt he will come in for criticism for that whatever he does. I beleive it will be harder for welsh players to make the cut to some extent. One exception may be Gethin who he will take as a senior Lion and because in Gats eyes he can do no wrong. Many others who might have been shoo in Lions may fall by the wayside and right now i only see these as nailed on

A Jones
G Jenkins
S Warburton
D Lydiate
M Philips
J Roberts
G North
L 1/2

With a good chance

M Rees
I Evans
L Charters
AWJ
T Faletau
R Prietsland
J Hook
J Davies
G Cuthbert

mowgli wrote:

Good to see you getting behind the Lions coach an discarding anti Welsh sentiment.

Pathetic.

Don't be too hard on yourself. Bagheera will be along soon.

Yep, you're as funny as you are loyal.

You're not making sense, mowgli.

Gatland is from New Zealand, not Wales.

And if I'm "discarding anti-Welsh sentiment" as you put it, that means I'm getting rid of anti-Welsh sentiment because it's no longer useful or desirable.

What was the point you're trying to make?

mowgli

Why do you see Warburton as (Nailed 0n)

What with all the injuries he keeps getting. Will he even make the team/squad?

I'm guessing they'll probably have a squad of 40 - 45 so 3 out 4 1st choice players in most positions should be in with a shout.

I don't think Gatland will take as big a squad as that. He generally likes quite a small squad for Wales.

Though it will surely be a demanding tour so maybe 35.

As to the make up of it, I think it's quite exciting to be honest. Wales Ireland and England are the more prominent though their is a good few Scots who are excellent of late.

I think that there are very few nailed on selections at all. Which makes this years speculation of who might make the tour a very hot debate. I am sure that as the season develops there will be a few new faces putting their case forward.

Gatland says he'll take 35

So realistically, that's two payers in each position, an extra hooker, two xtra props, and an extra halfback pairing most likely?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:So realistically, that's two payers in each position, an extra hooker, two xtra props, and an extra halfback pairing most likely?

Do not bet on him taking many out and out no. 10's. He likes to take flexible players, so look out for a fly half who can play full back or centre, ala James Hook.

Hook can play fullback???

ChequeredJersey wrote:Hook can play fullback???

He's played a hell of a lot of games there for Wales under Gatlands stewardship. I would even go as far to say that he is backup for Halfpenny in the Welsh squad now, oh, and Preistland and any of the centres, but mostly Halfpenny.

I was being flippant after the number of Welsh posters who bemoan his defence at Fullback