Lions pick worst performing test coach for Australia tour in 2013

The British & Irish Lions somehow ended up having to pick Warren Gatland as head coach for the tour to Australia next year.

Gatland has had two periods as international test coach - once with Ireland from 1998-2001 and currently with Wales, though he hasnt given that one up just yet.

At test level, you can point to his 2 grand slams. One more than Declan Kidney, which isn't saying much.
But it's his record against SH opposition since Dec 2007 with Wales that bears much greater scrutiny. Against SANZAR teams, he has coached 19, and won once. And it's not for want of trying. Gatland arranged test after test against the supposed weakest of the SH teams and came up short every time, bar a 3 point win at home in his first Austrlaian test in November 2008. Since then, it's been 7 duds on the trot. He's had SA 6 times and NZ 5 times and come up with zip.

This is the guy who's supposed to get the best out of four countries next year against southern opposition, when he can't even manage to get it out of one over the last four years.

FFS, I am getting fed up of these threads, go on then who would you have in charge, as you have already pointed out the closest one to him up here is Declan Kidney which isn't saying much, so come on pray tell.

I thought gatland was the obvious choice.
Interesting to see who his back room team will be.

If he picks the right players...and not all the ones he knows ( i mean all welsh) the Lions should get a series win....

The problem that I forsee with Gatland isn't so much his coaching ability (with better and mentally stronger players available with the Lions he may be able to achieve something out in Australia next year) it's more his personality. I don't see him as a uniting leader and he seems to be more concerned with topping up his CV so that he can have a crack at the NZ job at some point.

I am concerned that he may rely on tried on trusted with some of his picks and tactics, relying on a slow and easily outwitted scrum half together with route one tactics against a pack that won't be bullied as easily as he thinks.

Yawn

Good chuckle on Twitter today,
Shane Williams congratulated Lee Byrne and Mike Phillips on there Lions selection straight after Gatland was announced as the man in charge

How does Gatty get to arange the tests?

I do not liek having an overseas coach in charge of the Lions. Good coach that he was, Graham Henry never really understood the ethos. (Though to be fair SCW made an even bigger pigs ear of it).

BUT

Alternatives to Gatland were not exactly jumping up demanding selection.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I thought gatland was the obvious choice.
Interesting to see who his back room team will be.

If he picks the right players...and not all the ones he knows ( i mean all welsh) the Lions should get a series win....

He has already indicated he favours continuity in management from 2009 so I think there will be a few weeks grace & it will be the same team as SA.
He has also promised an attack minded team - what about the best of Wasps & Harlequins for starters

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I thought gatland was the obvious choice.
Interesting to see who his back room team will be.

If he picks the right players...and not all the ones he knows ( i mean all welsh) the Lions should get a series win....

He has already indicated he favours continuity from 2009 so I think there will be a few weeks grace & it will be the same team as SA.
He has also promised an attack minded team - what about the best of Wasps & Harlequins for starters

Aus would tear the Quins and Wasps players a new one, the tries they scored last weekend were hardly worth writing home about! just two defensively poor teams

viewtothegym wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I thought gatland was the obvious choice.
Interesting to see who his back room team will be.

If he picks the right players...and not all the ones he knows ( i mean all welsh) the Lions should get a series win....

He has already indicated he favours continuity from 2009 so I think there will be a few weeks grace & it will be the same team as SA.
He has also promised an attack minded team - what about the best of Wasps & Harlequins for starters

Aus would tear the Quins and Wasps players a new one, the tries they scored last weekend were hardly worth writing home about! just two defensively poor teams

What Region do you follow View?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I thought gatland was the obvious choice.
Interesting to see who his back room team will be.

If he picks the right players...and not all the ones he knows ( i mean all welsh) the Lions should get a series win....

He has already indicated he favours continuity from 2009 so I think there will be a few weeks grace & it will be the same team as SA.
He has also promised an attack minded team - what about the best of Wasps & Harlequins for starters

Most coaches when faced with a 50/50 choice go back to players they are familiar with. This of course means that current Welsh squad members and 09 Lions all have a head start.

Hell if there are any Wasps still playing from Gatland's time there they have a chance. Is Simon Shaw still at Toulon

The Lions wanted a coach who they could have for 10 months, or something similar. Which current coach from UK or Ireland would have been allowed apart from Gatland? Kidney? Would you be happy with that Irish fans? Lancaster? Too soon for him surely. Robinson? A club coach? A former coach such as SCW or Martin Johsnon? McGeechan?

Seriously, list the potential candidates and let's debate them, but don't stick the knife into Gatland when a) he didn't pick himself and b) he's one of only a very very small list who could negotiate the time off.

Personally...sod continuity.....

Pick the best players available at the time. How long before the tour is the squad actually picked?

As much as im an England fan...when i comes to the lions i want THE best team to hit the field. Ideally a nice mix of all four countries (which actually it should be this time)...but if it happens that one team is by far the best then i wouldnt have a problem with the majority coming from there....BUT it has to be THE BEST PLAYERS. Not his mates who he feels loyal to....Woodward made that mistake...

I'm English and can safely say that Gatland is the most obvious choice for coach unless we went really left field and got someone like Jake White to come over or Martin Johnson....

Gatland clearly has a will to win and hates losing, because of this he WILL pick the best players regardless of country. There may be the occasional selection where it is soo close he goes for who he knows, but at the end of the day is that such a bad thing? Picking someone who knows you and the system you play, for a series of games where everyone getting on the same wavelength in a short period of time?

Also, if it all goes badly we have a very obvious scape goat!

This century the Lions have played 10 lost 7 drawn 1 and won 2 tests (the first and last of the 10).

18 tries scored...25 scored against.

Theres more than the coach to be concerned about... Perhaps the players dont get on...easy to see why...reading...these...posts...

So who would you choose instead Pots?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Personally...sod continuity.....

Pick the best players available at the time. How long before the tour is the squad actually picked?

As much as im an England fan...when i comes to the lions i want THE best team to hit the field. Ideally a nice mix of all four countries (which actually it should be this time)...but if it happens that one team is by far the best then i wouldnt have a problem with the majority coming from there....BUT it has to be THE BEST PLAYERS. Not his mates who he feels loyal to....Woodward made that mistake...

Geordie when I mentioned continuity I think Gats was referring to the management team.

I agree with your comments.

Easy to moan harder to be constructive so who would you pick instead Pots ?

Kidney, Robinson, Lawrence, Johnson. McGeechan, O'Shea, Young, Ruddock, Hill etc etc - noone there who has a better cv

As long as Gatland doesn't fill the Lions with Wale's overrated French exiles I will be pleased.

Gatland shouldn't mess this up, he'll have a good pool of players to pick from.

beshocked wrote:As long as Gatland doesn't fill the Lions with Wale's overrated French exiles I will be pleased.

Gatland shouldn't mess this up, he'll have a good pool of players to pick from.

What Welsh players would you like to see getting picked beshocked ?

Wales has plenty of good players.

The likes of Warburton,North and Adam Jones are pretty much shoo ins.

Obviously in depends on form but the likes of Faletau,Priestland,J.Davies,Roberts,AWJ,Cuthbert,James,Lydiate,Halfpenny will all be in contention

There are plenty of Welsh players that could make the cut playing in Wales and England - don't need to look to the Welsh players in France.

The exception is possibly Jenkins.

beshocked wrote:Wales has plenty of good players.

The likes of Warburton,North and Adam Jones are pretty much shoo ins.

Obviously in depends on form but the likes of Faletau,Priestland,J.Davies,Roberts,AWJ,Cuthbert,James,Lydiate,Halfpenny will all be in contention

There are plenty of Welsh players that could make the cut playing in Wales and England - don't need to look to the Welsh players in France.

The exception is possibly Jenkins.

I agree, but I would take Paul James over Gethin Jenkins any day of the week, also I cannot see Faletau going not with the likes of Heaslip and Ryan Jones lurking around. John Davies might go Jamie Roberts will def go and will be a test starter along side BOD, I can see Cuthbert going and perhaps Lydiate, though he has to get past the Irish and Scottish boys first, Halfpenny before Kearney I cannot see happening and when you add Foden then he really has his work cut out. From an English point of view, as things stand, you could see Dan Cole, Foden and Robshaw going but after that the other contenders really do have their work cut out and before I say it please do not go mental on me, I think that there will be a lot of dissapointed English fans on here as I believe the Lions will be mostly made up with Celts.

viewtothegym wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I thought gatland was the obvious choice.
Interesting to see who his back room team will be.

If he picks the right players...and not all the ones he knows ( i mean all welsh) the Lions should get a series win....

He has already indicated he favours continuity from 2009 so I think there will be a few weeks grace & it will be the same team as SA.
He has also promised an attack minded team - what about the best of Wasps & Harlequins for starters

Aus would tear the Quins and Wasps players a new one, the tries they scored last weekend were hardly worth writing home about! just two defensively poor teams

If Tries are scored it's due to poor defence, if not it's poor attack...can't please some people any of the time...

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Wales has plenty of good players.

The likes of Warburton,North and Adam Jones are pretty much shoo ins.

Obviously in depends on form but the likes of Faletau,Priestland,J.Davies,Roberts,AWJ,Cuthbert,James,Lydiate,Halfpenny will all be in contention

There are plenty of Welsh players that could make the cut playing in Wales and England - don't need to look to the Welsh players in France.

The exception is possibly Jenkins.

I agree, but I would take Paul James over Gethin Jenkins any day of the week, also I cannot see Faletau going not with the likes of Heaslip and Ryan Jones lurking around. John Davies might go Jamie Roberts will def go and will be a test starter along side BOD, I can see Cuthbert going and perhaps Lydiate, though he has to get past the Irish and Scottish boys first, Halfpenny before Kearney I cannot see happening and when you add Foden then he really has his work cut out. From an English point of view, as things stand, you could see Dan Cole, Foden and Robshaw going but after that the other contenders really do have their work cut out and before I say it please do not go mental on me, I think that there will be a lot of dissapointed English fans on here as I believe the Lions will be mostly made up with Celts.

Altho I don't agree with it, LD, but I'm not expecting many Scots either (Gatland's "three countries, oops I mean four" gaff at the press conference aside)

His record against the big three SH teams is a worry.

But who else is there?

Robinson, MJ, Lancaster?????

My issue with Gatland is that he isn't very flexible with his game plan, especially when it comes to attack. Crashing into the Aussies for 80mins will only go so far.

beshocked wrote:Wales has plenty of good players.

The likes of Warburton,North and Adam Jones are pretty much shoo ins.

Obviously in depends on form but the likes of Faletau,Priestland,J.Davies,Roberts,AWJ,Cuthbert,James,Lydiate,Halfpenny will all be in contention

There are plenty of Welsh players that could make the cut playing in Wales and England - don't need to look to the Welsh players in France.

The exception is possibly Jenkins.

Warburton? The same Warburton who hasn't played well since the RWC? With Rennie, Tipuric and O'Brien snapping at his heals Warburton IMO will be lucky to make the plane unless he recaptures his 2011 form and remains injury free.

Ryan Jones? You joking seriously? I wouldn't start him. Not good enough for the Welsh starting XV.

The way I see the Welsh backrow -

6.Lydiate
7.Warburton
8.Faletau

Lions backrow could be something like in my opinion:

6.SOB/Brown
7.Warburton/Robshaw
8.Heaslip/Faletau

R.Jones wouldn't get in. That's without mentioning the likes of Denton,Rennie,Haskell etc.

Best English contenders IMO - Robshaw,Cole,Foden,Ashton,M.Tuilagi

Certainly Ashton. Would it really surprise to see wings being Ashton and North?

Then any of Goode,Brown,Barritt,Flood,Youngs,Farrell,Hartley,Haskell,Corbisiero,Marler have punching chances.

Outside bet is Wade.

Wade?

Not after that silly pass on Saturday.

Uh oh how could I forget Ferris in the backrow too.

Ryan Jones wouldn't get in ahead of these guys in the backrow. Most can play more than 1 backrow position too.

Ashton also has good experience scoring vs the Aussies.

I have said numerous times that the backrow is saturated with talent. A lot of very good players will be left behind in this tour.

Backrow contenders :

6. T.Croft, K.Brown, S.Ferris, D.Lydiate
7. R. Rennie, S. Warburton, C. Robshaw, S.O'Brian
8. B.Morgan, D.Denton, T.Faletau, J.Heaslip

I reckon versatility will help players in this one. If you can cover more positions than one in the backrow, that will put you in a better position.

Good point Ruggerradge. It's a nice headache for Gatland.

That gives you 4 pretty strong backrows from each country.

Griff wrote:The Lions wanted a coach who they could have for 10 months, or something similar. Which current coach from UK or Ireland would have been allowed apart from Gatland? Kidney? Would you be happy with that Irish fans? Lancaster? Too soon for him surely. Robinson? A club coach? A former coach such as SCW or Martin Johsnon? McGeechan?

Seriously, list the potential candidates and let's debate them, but don't stick the knife into Gatland when a) he didn't pick himself and b) he's one of only a very very small list who could negotiate the time off.

while I don't really like Gatland.

wot Griff said!

Very true damage 13 and Griff.

Just shows you how poor the quality of international coaches seems to be in the NH.

Gatland has had a good coaching career whatever you say -

3 English Premiership titles and 1 HC with Wasps

An Air New zealand cup title with Waikato.

2 GS with Wales and a WC semi final.

Do we count RWC semi finals now?

Just saying, but I'd have picked Nick Mallet

HERSH wrote:Do we count RWC semi finals now?

Well picking World Cup Winners doesn't work eh Hershy

What a dull OP.

Let's debate a list of British and Irish coaches that should have been appointed....oh yes there aren't any!

Perhaps we could fall back on that coaching genius that has led numerous victories over the SH giants and was the architect of two consecutive Lions test series? Oh yes...there isn't one.

We should have a great pool of players next year to pick from and a great series to look forward to. Give Gatland a break - at least until he does something to criticise.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Wales has plenty of good players.

The likes of Warburton,North and Adam Jones are pretty much shoo ins.

Obviously in depends on form but the likes of Faletau,Priestland,J.Davies,Roberts,AWJ,Cuthbert,James,Lydiate,Halfpenny will all be in contention

There are plenty of Welsh players that could make the cut playing in Wales and England - don't need to look to the Welsh players in France.

The exception is possibly Jenkins.

I agree, but I would take Paul James over Gethin Jenkins any day of the week, also I cannot see Faletau going not with the likes of Heaslip and Ryan Jones lurking around. John Davies might go Jamie Roberts will def go and will be a test starter along side BOD, I can see Cuthbert going and perhaps Lydiate, though he has to get past the Irish and Scottish boys first, Halfpenny before Kearney I cannot see happening and when you add Foden then he really has his work cut out. From an English point of view, as things stand, you could see Dan Cole, Foden and Robshaw going but after that the other contenders really do have their work cut out and before I say it please do not go mental on me, I think that there will be a lot of dissapointed English fans on here as I believe the Lions will be mostly made up with Celts.

Altho I don't agree with it, LD, but I'm not expecting many Scots either (Gatland's "three countries, oops I mean four" gaff at the press conference aside)

I dont think there'll be a huge English contingent...however i do think they'll be a few wildcards making the plane if as i suspect they have big seasons...

Definates -
Cole & Croft (He offers something different...) Ashton, Flood, Foden

Probables - Care or Youngs

In the mix....Possibles -
Tuilagi, Lawes, Marler, Corbs, Mike Brown

Back row dilemas
Wood & Robshaw & Haskell

My Wildcard picks -
Wade, Launchbury, Morgan,

Nick Mallet would've been fun

Rennie at scrumhalf?

If Gats hadn't of fallen off the lader and had lost three tests against Aus in the summer would that have made a difference. He would be alot of losses to Aus and nothing to show for it. Even the rubbish Kidney and Robinson and Johnson all have beaten Aus and know how to do it.

No point really debating it now. Decision is made and it's been a foregone conclusion for a long time.
I loved the early KO times the last time it was in AUS. Watching the midweek games in the Aussie bar on Parnell St before work was a surreal experience. Loads of noise, bacon sandwiches, plenty of banter ad then into work for a 8 hours of pension administration.
On a side note. I expect Ben Morgan to have a huge six nations and HC campaign and be a test starter at 8 with Lydiate and Warburton at 6 & 7 to add balance. for what it's worth:
1. Healy
2. Ford
3. Jones
4. Grey
5. POC
6. Lydiate
7. Warburton
8. Youngs
9. Philips
10. Flood
11. North
12. JD2
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Foden

16. Jenkins
17. Best
18. Cole
19. Lawes
20. O'Brien
21. Youngs
22. Sexton
23. Kearney

Bolter = Luke Marshall

I think that there are plenty of people that did well last year on the big stage that might this year harder. If McVisser finishs as top try scorer again in the Pro12 and get some in the AIs and 6Ns were does that leave him is he a year too late or will one year be enough to be included. I think this is the most even all 4 teams have been in a long time with 3 people for each place at least.

For my two penneth, at this moment in time, this is who I would pick:-

Paul James
Rory Best
Adam Jones
POC
Ritchie Grey
Robshaw
Warburton
Heaslip
Mike Phillips
Toby Flood
Jamie Roberts
BOD
North
Cuthbert
Kearney

Subs.
Jenkins
Cole
O'Brien
Sexton
Halfpenny
Scott Williams
Alyn Wyn Jones
Lloyd Williams

viewtothegym wrote: Aus would tear the Quins and Wasps players a new one, the tries they scored last weekend were hardly worth writing home about! just two defensively poor teams

and what are Australia?

Stopped reading after I saw the title, you clearly haven't heard of Declan Kidney if Gatland is performing the worst out of the home nations

I think he means worst performing against the SH nations

Declan Kidney has two wins over the big 3 but aside from that he has done little.


Gatland was the best avaailable I think, if we play like Wales do, we will lose though. All aboard the Schmidt Express!